Umaa Attends Meeting At White House With President

[rahat]

The CIA has not ever, and will never recruit at UMAA. I've attended every single convention and have never seen any CIA presence there. I have never met anyone who was openly from the CIA.

 

Many years of the convention are free for viewing on YouTube here https://www.youtube.com/user/umaamerica

 

You can plainly see that we do not recruit any person for employment in any government agency, and even have a presentation from Muslim Advocates on how to protect yourself from the FBI and other law enforcement groups. We clearly, regularly, and openly only advocate for Shia Islam and the protection/advancement of Shia Muslims. 

 

If you are convinced by anyone in this thread that UMAA is some horrible organization, then check out some clips on Youtube of what the convention is really about. You will see that it is composed entirely of speakers and others from our community, and experts from outside the community (such as Professor Juan Cole) speaking on the same topics you might hear at your local masjid. For several years, one of the top representatives of Ayatollah Sistani, Sheikh Fadhil Sahlani, has opened the convention. (He will do so again this year).

 

Ayatollahs from the Hawzahs of Iran and Iraq regularly attend and speak. 

 

UMAA has made mistakes. We have invited speakers who should not have been at the podium and people who said things that we disagree with. At the same time, we acknowledge these mistakes and seek to do better. In my opinion, the UMAA of the last 5-6 years has done a remarkable job in better aligning itself with the mainstream views of our community. I do not believe it is fair that these posters who hide their names and identities can post for 10+ years on Shiachat with false accusations, and that anyone should take this as truth. 

 

Imam Ali says that the truth is between your eyes and your ears. You've heard what many of the anti-UMAA people have to say, now look at YouTube and see what we are. The truth will be evident to anyone who does so.

An update, here is the lecture from the UMAA Convention on the FBI: 

Edited April 23, 2015 by rahat

[Abu Hadi]

If you think I'm making this up, why don't you re-read the below post. (this wasn't my post btw). 

 

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235012101-the-conference-of-ali-dearborn-mi/page-3#entry2587859

Edited April 30, 2015 by Abu Hadi

[Abu Hadi]

I think as you guys are busy picking your noses and spending hours on shiachat and facebook writing clever posts, people like Rahat are actually doing something about the plight of Shi'as.

 

First if he is doing something that is good, but if he is collaborating with the enemies of Islam and Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h) then that is bad. They are two seperate issues. Good deeds cancel out bad and bad deeds cancel out good. So the sum total of all that could be 0 (possibly because I don't know anything about this br and what good or other things he does, I am speaking theoretically)

 

Also, it is a huge assumption that everyone else is 'picking their nose' and not doing anything. And by assuming that, you are slandering them. 

 

The ends do not justify the means. We control the means and not the ends, the end result is up to Allah(s.w.a)

That was the main message of Imam Husain at Karbala. If you missed that, then you missed everything. 

Edited April 30, 2015 by Abu Hadi

[rahat]

Its unfortunate you accuse others of slander when you post links to articles written in pure "conspiracy theory" format by individuals who hide behind pen names. 

[Abu Hadi]

It is more unfortunate that UMAA has not done anything to distance itself from the past 'mistakes' as you call them. This is why it has no credibility among a great number of sincere mumineen and muminaat who reside in North America.

This discussion is not going to change that fact.

Lets agree to disagree 

 

And if I am out of line, what do you call someone who accuses 100s of muslims of 'picking their nose' and doing nothing when I personally know of 10s of brothers and sisters on this site who work very hard fe sibilillah. 

 

Also, to say again, I am not accusing all those involved in UMAA of collaborating with enemies of Ahl Al Bayt(a.s). Many of them are probably not even aware of what is going on at the top of the organization. 

But I believe that they should be aware then they can make their own choice whether they are 'ok' with it or not.

 

If Br. Ali wants to run ads for the conference on his site, that's his decision. He is El Patron of Shiachat.

But  not all of us on the mod team agree with that decision.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Abu Hadi

[Al-Englisi]

Prophet Nuh talked to tyrants of his time

Prophet Ibrahim reasoned with Namrut

Prophet Yusuf literally worked for a Pharoah

Prophet Musa negotiated with a Pharoah

Prophet Muhammad negotiated with Abu Sufyan, Quraish, others. Allowed Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and others in his presence.

Imam Ali negotiated with Muawiya

Imam Hasan signed treaty with Muawiya.

Imam Husain negotiated with Shimr and others at Karbala

Imam Muhammad Baqir and Imam Jafer Sadiq regularly negotiated with caliphs

Every Prophet and every masoomeen in every circumstance always asked for their rights, even from people who would've never granted it. 

 

Its irrelevant what the result was. By your logic, Prophet Musa should have never even tried with Pharaoh.

 

?

 

Most of those examples have nothing to do with our discussion, some are not completely true (please bring the sources and we can discuss them in detail here) and others have been taken completely out of context. The last point made (about every Prophet) is also wrong. Are you really going to guide and direct the Shi'a youth and general population of North America with examples and ideas in your mind that you have no idea regarding (context and authenticity)? 

 

Its unfortunate you accuse others of slander when you post links to articles written in pure "conspiracy theory" format by individuals who hide behind pen names. 

 

You keep making this point. What does it have to do with anything? If someone wants to post something on the internet are they required to note down their full name, family tree, social security and current address? 

 

If another member had not mentioned it on this site, i would not have known 'Rahat' was your real name. Your location is definitely not correct. Maybe you should put up an image of yourself and a google map pic of your location before we take any of your posts seriously? 

[Abu Hadi]

Salam, 

 

I was not going to post anymore on this thread, but I have gotten several pms from brothers and sisters who ask me to clarify my position regarding this event

 

First, If you believe that participating in the conference will be a positive for your Iman and help you to connect with sincere brothers and sisters, then by all means please attend. 

 

Second, I am not going to name individuals and say this person is bad, that person is bad, avoid them. 

I have nothing against Br. Rahat, may Allah(s.w.a) guide all of us. We have a disagreement that is all. 

I have nothing against Br. Ali (El Patron). He is a good sincere brother who is working to help the followers of Ahl Al Bayt(a.s). May Allah(s.w.a) give all of us the tawfiq to do such work. I happen to disagree with him on this issue, but that is all. 

 

I am simply saying that UMAA has a history of associating itself, from time to time, with the Tagut and supporters of Tagut, such as Wolfowitz. If they have changed, as br Rahat said, I hope they have changed. I will wait and see on that. Going to the White House is not a step in the right direction, though. I would simply like the brothers and sisters who attend the conference to be aware of that fact. 

 

IMO, if I am going to take the time and energy to fly somewhere or drive a long way, take off work, and spend money to attend a conference, I would rather attend a conference that is sponsored by an organization that does not have this type of record and that I can be 100% confident that nothing I am doing, and no money I am giving is going to support those who seek to destroy the teaching of Ahl Al Bayt(a.s). There are many examples of Shia organizations in North America who do these types of conferences that don't have this record. Muslim Congress is one example. Also, I hope someday that migration313 can do a conference, but that is a long way off for now. 

 

To the point about Imam Hasan(a.s) negotiating with Muawiya(la)

 

If you read this treaty, it is clear from the text, you don't need to look beyond that, 

That Imam Hassan(a.s) was negotiating for only one reason, and that was to protect the lives and property

of his Shia. Full Stop

He knew that without a contract, Muawiya would feel absolutely no restraint in killing the Shia and seizing their property. With a treaty, there was at least a theoretical chance that Muawiya(la) would abide by the treaty and some lives of Shia would be spared. 

 

And if you want to bring up that point, it actually doesn't help the cause of UMAA. As we all know Muawiya violated that treaty, many times, and this led to the tragedy of Karbala. 

 

The US government is not randomly killing the Shia in North America and seizing their property. So there is no need to have a treaty with them, and thus there is no need to have any communication with them since we agree that outside North America, and particularly in places like Syria, Yemen, Pakistan, and Palestine, they are supporting groups that are randomly killing our brothers and sisters. Imam Hassan(a.s) didn't sit down and have 'chats' with Muawiya, any communication with him was purely utilitarian in nature and aimed at safeguarding his Shia and nothing else. 

 

If UMMA thinks that by talking with the US govt, they can stop what is happening to our brothers and sisters outside North America, then that's fine but it hasn't worked. Since UMAA started in 2003 the situation has gotten worse and not better. The US Govt hasn't changed any of its unconditional support for the Zionists and their proxies. 

 

I wish for all Shia in North America to be united, but be united on the genuine teachings of Ahl Al Bayt(a.s) which includes tabarra from enemies of Ahl Al Bayt(a.s) whether those enemies are enemies in the past or the current ones. Salam. 

Edited May 1, 2015 by Abu Hadi

[NaveenHussain]

Salaam, 

People here may not fully agree with UMAA, Muslim Congress, or any other U.S. Shia organization. That's okay, though, because rarely will you find yourself agreeing 100% with any fallible person or group. FBI also recruits at Universities, but I know most Shias will not boycott Universities. I recently attended an UMAA press release event that was held in Washington, D.C., and Brother Rahat did speak out against U.S. governmental policies. I did like that, as I felt that he was sincere in his approach, even if UMAA makes some mistakes. The same can be said about Muslim Congress; I think the people may be sincere, but they will make some mistakes. Don't try to persuade us into thinking Muslim Congress is perfect. Let's be realistic. Sure, one group MAY be better organized than the other, [i'm not taking sides here] but I think Shias need to unite against the real enemy -- ignorance. At the end of the day, if you don't agree with the other group's ways, come to the conferences and ask your question in public. I'm not asking you to start a problem or anything, but sincerely seek to understand why said group does what it does. I think this will help both sides come to a better understanding of each other. 

After the press release event by UMAA, I spoke with Brother Rahat, asking him how we could get other Shia groups such as Muslim Congress to join UMAA and other Shia groups in events such as Baqee' Protests in front of the Saudi Embassy in Washington, D.C. If Shias are able to unite on joint causes, it should be able to get more support. I asked this question because a brother from Chicago was complaining about his group coming all the way from Chicago to Washington D.C., and only seeing a minimal turnout. We have many Shia in our area, alhamdulillah, but we need to show in large numbers, I think, in order for people to REALLY take us seriously. I don't think any Shia Muslim will have anything against uniting for the sake of protecting holy sites such as Jannat al-Baqee'. Politics aside, I think we need to start viewing each others as siblings that may disagree; at the end of the day, we still love each other. 

I'm genuinely interested in having Shia groups come together. Is UMAA willing to talk with Muslim Congress and vice-versa, when it comes to a joint cause such as a Jannatul Baqee' Protest in Washington, D.C.? Brother Rahat has mentioned reaching out to Muslim Congress. Will Muslim Congress join-in and meet other Shias in such joint causes? 

[Abu Hadi]

I am not saying Muslim Congress is perfect, they have their issues also. 

 

My point is that before I will say I support a group, they must reflect all the basic tenants of teaching of Ahl Al Bayt(as), not just some of them. Some is not acceptable to me. 

 

Merely speaking out against US government policies is not enough for me. Almost every group in the US speaks out against certain government policies. You need to state very clearly that the main  cause of killing and oppression of followers of Ahl Al Bayt(a.s) in the world today is the US Government and specifically the long standing and well know foreign policy stances of the US Government such as unconditional support for the Zionist Regime, unconditional support for the Saudi regime, unconditional support for the proxies of the Saudi regime such as governments of Pakistan, Jordan,Qatar,Bahrain, and other Gulf States.

Unconditional support for the military dictatorship of Egypt. 

 

Then have no 'chats' or any cooperation with those inside the US Government who are directly responsible for these policies. 

 

IF UMAA is willing to make that statement and have no cooperation with those responsible for the policies, then I would change my position. 

[NaveenHussain]

I am not saying Muslim Congress is perfect, they have their issues also. 

 

My point is that before I will say I support a group, they must reflect all the basic tenants of teaching of Ahl Al Bayt(as), not just some of them. Some is not acceptable to me. 

 

Merely speaking out against US government policies is not enough for me. Almost every group in the US speaks out against certain government policies. You need to state very clearly that the main  cause of killing and oppression of followers of Ahl Al Bayt(a.s) in the world today is the US Government and specifically the long standing and well know foreign policy stances of the US Government such as unconditional support for the Zionist Regime, unconditional support for the Saudi regime, unconditional support for the proxies of the Saudi regime such as governments of Pakistan, Jordan,Qatar,Bahrain, and other Gulf States.

Unconditional support for the military dictatorship of Egypt. 

 

Then have no 'chats' or any cooperation with those inside the US Government who are directly responsible for these policies. 

 

IF UMAA is willing to make that statement and have no cooperation with those responsible for the policies, then I would change my position. 

Are there any U.S. Muslim groups that say such things (that I highlighted in red)? I'm just curious. 

Edited May 1, 2015 by NaveenHussain

[Logic]

I'm genuinely interested in having Shia groups come together. Is UMAA willing to talk with Muslim Congress and vice-versa, when it comes to a joint cause such as a Jannatul Baqee' Protest in Washington, D.C.? Brother Rahat has mentioned reaching out to Muslim Congress. Will Muslim Congress join-in and meet other Shias in such joint causes? 

 

Some very good points made.

 

1. FBI and other agencies do actively recruit from unis and even your local mosque

2. Muslim congress members regularly send out scathing emails against UMAA

3. Al Baqee initial rally had Stephen Shwartz as one of their speakers.

 

No organization is perfect but as you said we Shia need to unite for the bigger cause which is to spread the message and get our point across.

I am not saying Muslim Congress is perfect, they have their issues also. 

 

My point is that before I will say I support a group, they must reflect all the basic tenants of teaching of Ahl Al Bayt(as), not just some of them. Some is not acceptable to me. 

 

Merely speaking out against US government policies is not enough for me. Almost every group in the US speaks out against certain government policies. You need to state very clearly that the main  cause of killing and oppression of followers of Ahl Al Bayt(a.s) in the world today is the US Government and specifically the long standing and well know foreign policy stances of the US Government such as unconditional support for the Zionist Regime, unconditional support for the Saudi regime, unconditional support for the proxies of the Saudi regime such as governments of Pakistan, Jordan,Qatar,Bahrain, and other Gulf States.

Unconditional support for the military dictatorship of Egypt. 

 

Then have no 'chats' or any cooperation with those inside the US Government who are directly responsible for these policies. 

 

IF UMAA is willing to make that statement and have no cooperation with those responsible for the policies, then I would change my position. 

 

Br Hadi. With all due to respect to you, Most of your talking points have been addressed over the years with very sound reasoning but you are repeating the same accusations over and over again. Every year its the same tired old story.

[skylight2]

The facts about UMAA do need to be repeated, so as to warn others about the nature of the organization... that is even something of an obligation, I would say ... now what people do with that information is up to them... personally there is little that has been addressed by UMAA, and their actions (such as white house visits, etc. ) suggests that little has been actually addressed. 

 

True FBI does recruit in most mosques, true... unfortunate... but I've never seen them set up a table at the local Shi'a masjid - they may be doing some undercover recruiting... they do have tables at ISNA/MPAC/UMAA type orgs. ... this is so that they can get some credibility from the establishment, and they won't actively try to do a COINTELPRO on them... since they are openly cooperating. 

 

Some very good points made.

 

1. FBI and other agencies do actively recruit from unis and even your local mosque

2. Muslim congress members regularly send out scathing emails against UMAA

3. Al Baqee initial rally had Stephen Shwartz as one of their speakers.

 

No organization is perfect but as you said we Shia need to unite for the bigger cause which is to spread the message and get our point across.

 

Br Hadi. With all due to respect to you, Most of your talking points have been addressed over the years with very sound reasoning but you are repeating the same accusations over and over again. Every year its the same tired old story.

[Logic]

The facts about UMAA do need to be repeated, so as to warn others about the nature of the organization... that is even something of an obligation, I would say ...

 

Then be truthful about these 'facts' - Tell people they stem from 2003 and 2007 and view points evolve over time. Tell them hindsight is 20/20 and remind them again many shias including imams of their local mosque supported Iraq invasion at that time. It would be best if they are directed to those existing thread where these issues have been discussed already so they can hear both sides and make their choice.

 

 

Personally i think you are wasting your time. With Mehdi Hassan, Qazwani, Abu Thar and Ammar attending its pretty much a done deal. I would  suggest you attend and take pic/videos of FBI shadows.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Logic