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guest050817

Shia Distortion Of 'ulil Amr'

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On 1/28/2015 at 2:15 PM, guest050817 said:

Peace be with you,

 

I am not here to state that 'Ulil Amr' negates the Imams (عليه السلام). However, I do believe it does not necessarily refer to them. Often people argue that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would not ask us to obey a corrupt ruler, and hence not everyone who has been vested with authority among us is to be followed.

 

 

However, let us examine the verse:

 

Qur'an: O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

 

Contention 1:

 
The Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) made Usama the leader of his army and to be obeyed. He also left governors. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) himself appointed governors in different areas of the empire. Not everyone given authority was infallible yet was to be obeyed. The world would not work if we only obeyed infallible s, and not pious righteous individuals. We all obey our respective governments -unless they take us from Islam, where we can even employ taqqiyah if we fear for our lives.
 
Contention 2:
 
The verse states that if we differ over anything, we go back to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and his messenger. Now, why does it not say - refer back to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), his messenger, and those vested authority among you? This itself is a very revealing point.
 
 
 
So while the Imams (عليه السلام) can be included in the ulil-amr, it would take some logical and scriptural gymnastic interpretations which in my view, would be severely distorted.
 
I am open to challenges to change my view, but will not reply to anyone who merely copies and pastes large volumes of text. I want a discussion.

There has to be one divine authority to look upon the people, Ulul Amr refers to Imams because they are neither Allah nor Prophet and Allah says if you have problem in understanding Qur'an and Hadith, refer it to Allah and Messenger that implies to living authorities after Prophet and that are Imams as Prophet said: "Our first  middle and last is Muhammad". Even  today our Marajas are not without the aid of Imam-e'-Zamana (عليه السلام). So, in my view your contentions are invalid.

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12 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Even  today our Marajas are not without the aid of Imam-e'-Zamana (عليه السلام)

The equating of marjas with ulil amr is dangerous.

maybe some few but not all are aided by Imam(عليه السلام).

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On 12/8/2019 at 3:48 AM, Mzwakhe said:

The equating of marjas with ulil amr is dangerous.

maybe some few but not all are aided by Imam(عليه السلام).

I am not equating them with Ulul Amr. I just said Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام) is among us, so he knows how to reach to Marajas for their guidance through an ordinary person, by verse of Qur'an or by opposition of public.

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4 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

I am not equating them with Ulul Amr. I just said Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام) is among us, so he knows how to reach to Marajas for their guidance through an ordinary person, by verse of Qur'an or by opposition of public.

Imam Mahdi (aj) is absolute  Ulul Amr but Marjas are his deputies like as other Imams from time of Imam Hadi (عليه السلام) had deputies among Shias to solve their problems & like as Imam Ali (عليه السلام) that had governors in other cities of  Islamic territory but our Imams  deputies were fallible people.

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5 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Imam Mahdi (aj) is absolute  Ulul Amr but Marjas are his deputies like as other Imams from time of Imam Hadi (عليه السلام) had deputies among Shias to solve their problems & like as Imam Ali (عليه السلام) that had governors in other cities of  Islamic territory but our Imams  deputies were fallible people.

Dear brother, Imam-e-Zamana is "Master of the affair" as told by our Imams. I agree that Marajas are deputies and spokesman on behalf of Imam-e-Zamana (عليه السلام), but "Master of affair" is one who is delegated "Amr" and our Marajas are under his care. Amr of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is delegated to Imams and if we would call Marajas as Ulul Amr, then if they do mistake, it will question authority of Allah (عزّ وجلّ). Let us not make our Marajas as Pops in our religion. Everyone has been assigned his own responsibility. And, if anyone believes that Marajas considered themselves as Ulul Amr, I would call it "Conspiracy" against them for they never attributed this to themselves and no are they permitted by our Imams. 

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On 12/9/2019 at 10:03 AM, Flying_Eagle said:

considered themselves

is it the lay that would believe so?

Those in authority of what exactly, state or religious institutions or... & to what extent?

What are qualities that define ' the representatives' of Imam(عليه السلام) the Ulil Amr?

The blood relations?

The attainment of jurisprudential qualifications?

a conundrum

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