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Shia Distortion Of 'ulil Amr'

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Peace be with you,

 

I am not here to state that 'Ulil Amr' negates the Imams a.s. However, i do believe it does not necessarily refer to them. Often people argue that Allah swt would not ask us to obey a corrupt ruler, and hence not everyone who has been vested with authority among us is to be followed.

 

 

However, let us examine the verse:

 

QURAN: O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

 

Contention 1:

 
The Holy Prophet pbuh made Usama the leader of his army and to be obeyed. He also left governors. Imam Ali a.s himself appointed governors in different areas of the empire. Not everyone given authority was infallible yet was to be obeyed. The world would not work if we only obeyed infallible s, and not pious righteous individuals. We all obey our respective governments -unless they take us from Islam, where we can even employ taqqiyah if we fear for our lives.
 
Contention 2:
 
The verse states that if we differ over anything, we go back to Allah swt and his messenger. Now, why does it not say - refer back to Allah swt, his messenger, and those vested authority among you? This itself is a very revealing point.
 
 
 
So while the Imams a.s can be included in the ulil-amr, it would take some logical and scriptural gymnastic interpretations which in my view, would be severely distorted.
 
I am open to challenges to change my view, but will not reply to anyone who merely copies and pastes large volumes of text. I want a discussion.

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Bismillah.

 

Salaam.

 

The verse is speaking of the necessity of obey; so whom must we obey? Everyone? Any government? Of course not; the order to obey in this verse is ABSOLUTE, so you are supposed to obey, absolutely, the ones who are included by this verse - in all situations, worldly and spiritually -. So you have to be certain about obeying someone in order to make sure that you are stepping on the right path. The only way to gain such certainty is infallibility of the one whom you are following. Therefore, albeit the title "Ulil Amr" is general that could be applied to anyone, but in reality the infallible Ulil Amr is confined to Ma'sumin (the holy Prophet, Lady Fatimah and Imams - peace be with them all -).

 

With Duas.

 

Narsis.

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You're literally destroying the siyaaq of the Ayah this way, because the obeying of the Ulil Amr is waajib mutlaqan as is the obeying of the Allaah and the Holy Prophet.

Secondly, I think we have authentic narrations saying it is the Ahlulbayt - I will try to find them.

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QURAN: O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

 

That is verse 4:59. The arabic "Ool il Amr" is also used in the same surah as follows:

 

"4.83":    And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Apostle and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few.

 

Read it very, very carefully and a few times. It basically further defines and illuminates the Ool il Amr and sets his define attribute to be the peak of knowledge which is Prophetic knowledge since these verses point to both the Prophet and Ool il Amr at the same time.

 

Secondly, this verse has also indicated about the later sects and innovations that have come into being and how the majorities of the ummah have started to follow the Shaitan, save a few, precisely because they have abandoned the teachings and schools of the Ool il Amr.

 

Contention 1 solved: Prophet and Ool il Amr appointed those leaders like Osama whom you mention and ordered you to follow them, so you follow them. Simple.

 

Contention 2 solved: Read the above verse 4:83 from the same surah which does tell you to refer to the Ool il Amr who is the best in Prophetic knowledge from among all creation after the holy Prophet (pbuh).

Therefore it is indeed meant for us to adhere to, follow and obey the teachings of the blessed Ahl al Bayt (as) and that their teachings and the teaching of the Prophet are one and the same and Allah is saying that in the Quran.

 

Now I ask you, who else did you think is this ool il amr? The mullah?

Edited by Darth Vader

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Contention 1:

 
The Holy Prophet pbuh made Usama the leader of his army and to be obeyed. He also left governors. Imam Ali a.s himself appointed governors in different areas of the empire. Not everyone given authority was infallible yet was to be obeyed. The world would not work if we only obeyed infallible s, and not pious righteous individuals. We all obey our respective governments -unless they take us from Islam, where we can even employ taqqiyah if we fear for our lives.

 

The Ulul-Amr mentioned in the verse are those whose obediency is required from us in absolute terms, so it does not include Usama and other delegates and appointees by the Ulul-Amar directly, but does so indirectly, as their domain of leadership was limited, and thus not absolute. Their obedience is as a result of our obedience to the true Ulul-Amr, i.e. the Prophet s.a.w.s and the Imams a.s.

 

 

Contention 2:
 
The verse states that if we differ over anything, we go back to Allah swt and his messenger. Now, why does it not say - refer back to Allah swt, his messenger, and those vested authority among you? This itself is a very revealing point.

 

This part of the verse is interpreted in different ways.

The contention is that there is a dispute amongst people, so where do we turn to?

  • To Allah s.w.t. i.e. His Words in the Quran
  • The Prophet s.a.w.s.

So why wasn't the Ulul-Amr mentioned? this can be explained in several ways:

(1) it means that the people should refer to the one who was the effective Ulul-Amr and Hujjah of his time, i.e. the Prophet at that particular time

(2) the verse says that any points of dispute is to be referred to a point of reference, and that point of reference as to be accepted by consensus, that is the Quran and the Prophet, as there is no denying the authority of these two amongs the Muslims. However, even the point of who the Ulul-Amr is a point of great dispute, and it is actually one of the greatest disputes amongst Muslims resulting in much bloodshed in the first century of Islam until today. Therefore, it will be cyclical for one to refer to the ulul-amr to decide on who the ulu-amr are.

(3) the other verse mentioned (4:83) deals with disputes and doubts about external news, and this does not include the issue of the specification of the ulul-amr itself, so the ulul-amr are mentioned to be a point of reference too.

(4) the Quran sometimes shortens the concept, when those concepts are mentioned elsewhere. In some verses it says that believe in Allah leads to salvation. Some verses say that belief in Him, belief in Qiyamah and good deeds will lead to salvation. Others say: belief in Him, all the prophets, all the scriptures, the angels, etc etc praying, fasting, zakat, etc will lead to salvation. Is there contradiction? No, beacuse all these things stem from tawheed (i.e. belief in Allah), and all of these offshoots of tawheed are explained in some verses in more detail than other verses.

Similarly in this verse, referral to Allah and the Prophet is mentioned without referral to the Ulul-Amr because referral the Prophet means taking his teachings, and a part of his teachings is the absolute authority (wilayah and imamah) of certain personalities, i.e. the Ulul-Amr. And this is explained in other verses too, like 4:83

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Salam.

 

The verse states that if we differ over anything, we go back to Allah swt and his messenger.

The Imam [i.e. divinely appointed] is Caliph [i.e. successor] of the Prophet (saw), who has the knowledge of Tafsir and Sunnah, he succeeds the Prophet (saw) and stands n his place, and inherits his (saw) knowledge.

While the Prophet (saw) was alive, we would refer to him (saw), after his (saw) demise, we must refer to his successor, and they are the Ulul Amr.

أحمد بن محمد، عن علي بن الحكم، عن الحسين بن أبي العلاء قال: ذكرت لابي عبد الله عليه لاسلام قولنا في الاوصياء أن طاعتهم مفترضة قال: فقال: نعم، هم الذين قال الله تعالى: " أطيعوا الله وأطيعوا الرسول وأولي الامر منكم " وهم الذين قال الله عز وجل: " إنما وليكم الله ورسوله والذين آمنوا "

Ahmad b. Muhammad from `Ali b. al-Hakam from al-Husayn b. Abu’l `Alaa’.

He said: I mentioned to Abu `Abdillah عليه لاسلام our saying regarding the deputies (awsiya’), that obedience to them is obligatory. He said: So he said: Yes, they are the ones about whom Allah تعالى says, “Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger and those in authority from you,” (4:59) – and they are the ones about whom Allah عز وجل says, “Verily, your master is [only] Allah, His Messenger, and those who believed,” (5:55). (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 480)

(hasan kal-sahih) (حسن كالصحيح)

Edited by Rasul

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(bismillah)

 

Surah 4: Verse 59

 

Short Commentary

http://quran.al-islam.org/

 

Long Commentary with Analysis and answers to questions raised,  by Allama TabaTabai

http://www.almizan.org/

 

[seeker of knowledge should at least  read the commentaries on 33:33, 5:3, 5:55, 5:57, to come to a proper understanding of some basic concepts,

Proper understanding of Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp] is a prerequisite otherwise, with corrupted understanding of the Prophet of Allah[swt], danger is that a person will be lost and will not be able to understand the Book of Allah[swt].

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QURAN: O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

 

 

1- Many traditions refer to Imams from Ahl albayat as as Ulil Amr. 

 

2- The question arises here whom  exactly do you follow as Ulil amr?  The first three caliphs or alike?

 

Regards.

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Peace be with you,

 

I am not here to state that 'Ulil Amr' negates the Imams a.s. However, i do believe it does not necessarily refer to them. Often people argue that Allah swt would not ask us to obey a corrupt ruler, and hence not everyone who has been vested with authority among us is to be followed.

 

 

However, let us examine the verse:

 

QURAN: O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

 

Contention 1:

 
The Holy Prophet pbuh made Usama the leader of his army and to be obeyed. He also left governors. Imam Ali a.s himself appointed governors in different areas of the empire. Not everyone given authority was infallible yet was to be obeyed. The world would not work if we only obeyed infallible s, and not pious righteous individuals. We all obey our respective governments -unless they take us from Islam, where we can even employ taqqiyah if we fear for our lives.
 
Contention 2:
 
The verse states that if we differ over anything, we go back to Allah swt and his messenger. Now, why does it not say - refer back to Allah swt, his messenger, and those vested authority among you? This itself is a very revealing point.
 
 
 
So while the Imams a.s can be included in the ulil-amr, it would take some logical and scriptural gymnastic interpretations which in my view, would be severely distorted.
 
I am open to challenges to change my view, but will not reply to anyone who merely copies and pastes large volumes of text. I want a discussion.

 

 

(bismillah)

(salam)

 

Thats why Shia fabricated narrations in the name of Ahlulbayt claiming that this verse had an additional phrase like: "And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, AND THOSE in AUTHORITY AMONG YOU".  

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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

Thats why Shia fabricated narrations in the name of Ahlulbayt claiming that this verse had an additional phrase like: "And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, AND THOSE in AUTHORITY AMONG YOU".  

 

Its just a claim as usual without any evidence.

 

For the following post (linked below) I still await your reply with one authentic sunni hadith relevant to the title of the thread. (for accepting  first three caliphs as Ulil Amr).

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235027719-am-i-forced-to/?p=2768354

 

Regards.

Edited by skamran110

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Its just a claim as usual without any evidence.

 

For the following post (linked below) I still await your reply with one authentic sunni hadith relevant to the title of the thread. (for accepting  first three caliphs as Ulil Amr).

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235027719-am-i-forced-to/?p=2768354

 

Regards.

 

(salam)

Here:

https://islamistruth.wordpress.com/2014/02/24/shia-scholars-and-narrations-claim-verse-459-was-distorted/

 

As for you other thread then are you saying that you need a Sahih Hadith from Prophet (saw) for future rulers? Do you have any Sahih that Ali Khamenei should be the supreme leader of Iran and "wali amr muslimeen"?

 

According to numerous Sahih narrations the Prophet (saw) indirectly showed that Abubakr is the best person to be the leader after him. He appointed him as Imam of prayer in the Mosque and all Sahaba prayed behind Abubakr during the last days of the Prophet (saw) and many other signs. Anyways, this is off-topic. 

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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

Thats why Shia fabricated narrations in the name of Ahlulbayt claiming that this verse had an additional phrase like: "And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, AND THOSE in AUTHORITY AMONG YOU".  

 

It is correct Tawil of the verse, which was revialed by Allah. Ulul Amr are successors of the Prophet (pbuh), there is problem here, for people, who reject the successors of the Prophet (pbuh). Now, go and find a verse, which support your corrupt leaders & religion, where Allah gave them right to choose a Chaliph. :D

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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

Thats why Shia fabricated narrations in the name of Ahlulbayt claiming that this verse had an additional phrase like: "And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, AND THOSE in AUTHORITY AMONG YOU".  

 

The language of the verse makes perfect sense. There is always an authoritative being chosen by Allah amongst us. Hence the plural form. The guran is a universal guide, therefore it makes sense Allah's commands are not just in the past or future, but in the present. In fact this verse states, there must be a leader amongst us right now. Whether you think it is the fallible sinful king of saudi, or the other tens of self proclaimed caliphs in the sunni world (which doesnt make sense cause there can be only one caliph), or the infallible Imam Mahdi A.S chosen by Allah, that we Shias believe in.

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Salam

 

When reading Quran, we should also see the theme of the verses and the flow.

 

In verse 5:54, God mentions people should not be envied for what Allah has given them out of his grace, for indeed he has given the family of Ibrahim the book and the wisdom and given them a great mulk.

 

The great mulk in this context refers to their legislative authority of Prophethood and that of their spiritual Imammate. In this context, it refers to absolute divine authority and is inclusive of the spiritual Wilayah of Allah over his creation. 

 

Therefore the Authority given is in this context, and refers to Imammate. Also, given Allah is telling us to obey him and obey the Messenger, in it's context of this authority we are being told that the Ulil-Amr are to be obeyed. He could of just told us to obey Ulil-Amr without mention of obeying him and obeying the Messenger to be seen as a different type of obedience.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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(salam)

Here:

https://islamistruth.wordpress.com/2014/02/24/shia-scholars-and-narrations-claim-verse-459-was-distorted/

 

As for you other thread then are you saying that you need a Sahih Hadith from Prophet (saw) for future rulers? Do you have any Sahih that Ali Khamenei should be the supreme leader of Iran and "wali amr muslimeen"?

 

According to numerous Sahih narrations the Prophet (saw) indirectly showed that Abubakr is the best person to be the leader after him. He appointed him as Imam of prayer in the Mosque and all Sahaba prayed behind Abubakr during the last days of the Prophet (saw) and many other signs. Anyways, this is off-topic. 

 

Brother just for your information we dont take Khamenai as successor of the holy prophet. He is just a leader of the group of people in Iran. He is respected by others because he is included in ulema and fuqaha (to be respected as per narrations from Imams).

Our 12th Imam is present in this world and in his presence in ghayba, we do not need another infallible as Imam.

 

Moreover, it confirms that there is no sunni hadith for taking first three caliphs as Ulil amr, and obeying them.

 

Regards.

Salam

 

When reading Quran, we should also see the theme of the verses and the flow.

 

In verse 5:54, God mentions people should not be envied for what Allah has given them out of his grace, for indeed he has given the family of Ibrahim the book and the wisdom and given them a great mulk.

 

The great mulk in this context refers to their legislative authority of Prophethood and that of their spiritual Imammate. In this context, it refers to absolute divine authority and is inclusive of the spiritual Wilayah of Allah over his creation. 

 

Therefore the Authority given is in this context, and refers to Imammate. Also, given Allah is telling us to obey him and obey the Messenger, in it's context of this authority we are being told that the Ulil-Amr are to be obeyed. He could of just told us to obey Ulil-Amr without mention of obeying him and obeying the Messenger to be seen as a different type of obedience.

 

Marvelous conclusion. 

 

(Just minor correction, the verse no. is 4:54, instead of  5:54 by typo error)

 

Regards.

Edited by skamran110

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Brother just for your information we dont take Khamenai as successor of the holy prophet. He is just a leader of the group of people in Iran. He is respected by others because he is included in ulema and fuqaha (to be respected as per narrations from Imams).

Our 12th Imam is present in this world and in his presence in ghayba, we do not need another infallible as Imam.

 

Moreover, it confirms that there is no sunni hadith for taking first three caliphs as Ulil amr, and obeying them.

 

Regards.

(bismillah)

(salam)

 

He is accepted by Shia Ayatollahs (most) of Iran and even other Shia scholars around the world as a leader/Imam of a nation, he is also called "wali amr muslimeen" etc. He is the ulil Amr in Iran, he is the one in authority. It doesn't matter if you don't take him as a successor of Prophet (saw). 

 

If your 12th Imam is alive then fallible Ali Khamenei has usurped the rule of 12th Imam. How can fallible Shia scholars appoint him as a leader of a nation when there is a divinely appointed Imam a live? 

 

As for obeying the three caliphs then their virtues and praise of them by Prophet (saw) are many to count so that is enough for people to obey them. I think you are confused. You are asking such questions as if we believe they were divinely appointed. No, we don't. They were pious fallible men, chosen by pious fallible men as their leader.   

 

 

 

He is respected by others because he is included in ulema and fuqaha (to be respected as per narrations from Imams).

 

Same about the three Caliphs but the difference is that the three caliphs were praised by the Prophet (saw) explicitly.

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On 1/28/2015 at 4:31 AM, al-Ibrahimi said:

You're literally destroying the siyaaq of the Ayah this way, because the obeying of the Ulil Amr is waajib mutlaqan as is the obeying of the Allaah and the Holy Prophet.

Secondly, I think we have authentic narrations saying it is the Ahlul Bayt - I will try to find them.

Of course it is Mutlaq but as the verse of Wilayah, which is Mutlaq too but conveyed only to Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).), there is only one instance for this Mutlaq which is Prophet and Ahlul-Bayt (p).

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During the time of ghayba, Shia pious and knowledgeable ulama are leaders of Shia community as secondary option

Like when there's no water and you make tayammum. Had there been any water, the tayammum would've been invalid; but since there's no water the very tayammum is ''wajib'' because the salah should not be left, if not with wudu, then with tayammum. Now the same reason is here "the community cannot be left without leader"

This is the very reason for the existence of an infallible Imam in the first place but since some so called sahaba rejected the Divine appointment, we now have to make a secondary choice and choose the best traits that come after infallibility for leadership of the Umma, which are piety and knowledge.

They're better than the rule of kinship monarchy or blind secular so called democracy (which most of time is mainstream-media-cracy)

Edited by mesbah

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Peace be with you,

 

I am not here to state that 'Ulil Amr' negates the Imams a.s. However, i do believe it does not necessarily refer to them. Often people argue that Allah swt would not ask us to obey a corrupt ruler, and hence not everyone who has been vested with authority among us is to be followed.

 

 

However, let us examine the verse:

 

QURAN: O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

 

Contention 2:
 
The verse states that if we differ over anything, we go back to Allah swt and his messenger. Now, why does it not say - refer back to Allah swt, his messenger, and those vested authority among you? This itself is a very revealing point.
 

salam

U left out “if you should belieuve in Allah and the Last Day”. :no:

C'mon bro. This portion of the ayat is not to be taken as a green light to differ/disagree among mukmins/muslims.

Now why doesn't it says “if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Messenger”?

My take on this is (I am not trying to interpret according to my opinion, but trying to understand the literal of it, using what little knowledge I have about “IF statement” in computer programming):

1. the true believers response to the interpretation “O you who believe, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you” would be: “we listen and we obey”. Most logical if they had asked, “who are these ulil-amr”.

2. the not so true believers (hinted by the if clause, “if you believe in Allah and the Last Day” ie leaving out the Messenger), had doubt whether the above command is from Allah, and not just the Messenger's favoritism for ulil-amr. If this is not obvious, maybe this will clear any doubts (Allah's way is most elegant, though):

 

IF you believe in Allah and the Last Day

IF you disagree over anything

refer to Allah and the Last Day.

That is the best [way] and best in result.

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Peace be with you,

 

I am not here to state that 'Ulil Amr' negates the Imams a.s. However, i do believe it does not necessarily refer to them. Often people argue that Allah swt would not ask us to obey a corrupt ruler, and hence not everyone who has been vested with authority among us is to be followed.

 

 

However, let us examine the verse:

 

QURAN: O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

 

Contention 1:

 
The Holy Prophet pbuh made Usama the leader of his army and to be obeyed. He also left governors. Imam Ali a.s himself appointed governors in different areas of the empire. Not everyone given authority was infallible yet was to be obeyed. The world would not work if we only obeyed infallible s, and not pious righteous individuals. We all obey our respective governments -unless they take us from Islam, where we can even employ taqqiyah if we fear for our lives.
 
Contention 2:
 
The verse states that if we differ over anything, we go back to Allah swt and his messenger. Now, why does it not say - refer back to Allah swt, his messenger, and those vested authority among you? This itself is a very revealing point.
 
 
 
So while the Imams a.s can be included in the ulil-amr, it would take some logical and scriptural gymnastic interpretations which in my view, would be severely distorted.
 
I am open to challenges to change my view, but will not reply to anyone who merely copies and pastes large volumes of text. I want a discussion.

 

Salutations! 

We have many ahadeeth that mention 'oolil amre minkum' refer to Ahlul Bayt [as]. I believe it. Why? You mention Usama bin Zayd being chosen to lead the army, and for the troops to obey him. This can be seen as the Prophet [saww] telling children to obey their parents. Of course, we're to obey our parents, unless they tell us to disobey Allah [swt]. I think we all agree upon that much. Now, obedience to parents doesn't necessarily equate to disobedience to Allah [swt]. The same way I think obedience to Usama bin Zayd doesn't necessarily equate to disobedience to Rasoolulllah [saww], or even Allah [swt]. Sure, the main ones whom we're to follow are Allah [swt], Rasool [saww], and the Ahlul Bayt [as]. If there is any disagreement on the Ahlul Bayt [as], agree on what is agreed upon concerning Allah [swt] and Rasoolullah [swt]. [This, I think is important for those who follow other than Ja'fari fiqh, and still consider themselves Shias.] I think it's similar to how Quraan tells us to come to a joint term with The People of the Book. Think about it. 

Edited by NaveenHussain

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You are amazing man ! 

Tawheed313, the point is that some Sunnies and all Shias and our wisdom say that Ulul Amr mentioned in Quran should be infallible !!

Yes other Ulul Amrs can exist but the specific meaning is solely the infallible imams.

I think you are confused about this fact.

Where is your Rationality !?

No one, exactly no one says that Ulul Amrs are only infallible imams. Who has said this !?

If Shias insist on imams it is that they just want to highlight the importance of infallible imams. 

Do they believe that Khamenei is infallible !? never. But they do consider him their Ulul Amr at least in Iran. This is exactly the concept of Velayat of Faqih. 

Edited by maes

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As for obeying the three caliphs then their virtues and praise of them by Prophet (saw) are many to count so that is enough for people to obey them. I think you are confused. You are asking such questions as if we believe they were divinely appointed. No, we don't. They were pious fallible men, chosen by pious fallible men as their leader.   

 

 

1- As per clear hadiths and narrations Ulil amr refers to 12 Imams, see post no.7.

 

2- Ulemas are not Ulil amr as no hadith supports it. Khamenaie is not the Ulil Amr for shias, this is your misconception, He is just considered a leader of group of people in Iran,

 

3- A sunni hadith mentioning 3 caliphs as Ulil Amr and obeying him for sunni point of view is still awaited. As per the discussion made so far it reveals that it does not exist.

 

Regards 

Edited by skamran110

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1- As per clear hadiths and narrations Ulil amr refers to 12 Imams, see post no.7.

 

2- Ulemas are not Ulil amr as no hadith supports it. Khamenaie is not the Ulil Amr for shias, this is your misconception, He is just considered a leader of group of people in Iran,

 

3- A sunni hadith mentioning 3 caliphs as Ulil Amr and obeying him for sunni point of view is still awaited. As per the discussion made so far it reveals that it does not exist.

 

Regards 

 

(salam)

 

1- Irrelevant, you asked for Sunni Hadith.That is an unclear Shia narration, not my concern, and it doesn't even make sense. I thought 5:55 was revealed for Ali? So it means the verse 4:59 only about Ali and no one else. 

2- Ulil Amr means those in authority (third time I am explaining to you the meaning :) ) and Ali Khamenei is called Imam in Iran (and by other shias) and he is in authority in Iran and people follow him. He is called "wali amr Muslimeen". Very simple to understand. 

3-Already answered. I quote you again. You said about Ali Khamenei: 

 

 

He is respected by others because he is included in ulema and fuqaha (to be respected as per narrations from Imams).

I replied:

Same about the three Caliphs but the difference is that the three caliphs were praised by the Prophet (saw) explicitly.

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Ulil-Amr can mean "Those who posses the Authority" instead of just "those in authority" and this would refer to that all inclusive station of God's and his Prophet's Wilayah.


I have a question, does Abu Baker hold authority to give spiritual advice that must be obeyed? Because the authority discussed in verse 4:59 is in context of the Authority of the family of Ibrahim (4:54) which was primarily spiritual.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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I would like to bring another point.

"Fa" means "so" "therefore"etc. 

So in this instance, it's saying obey God and the Messenger and the Ulil-Amr from you so/therefore refer all your disagreements back to God and his Messenger. This would mean Ulil-Amr always order disagreements to be referred back to God and his Messenger and part of obeying them is referring back to God and his Messenger with all disagreements. This means their Sunnah is that of the Messengers Sunnah or else they can command at a time to obey something other then referring back to God and his Messenger. But we see referring back to God and his Messenger is always in obedience to Ulil-Amr.

This goes well with the hadith to follow the Sunnah of Rasool and the rightly guided successors after him.  

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Its funny that while Sunnis are bombarding away at the oolil amr in verse 4:59 they are acting blind and ignoring 4:83. Although understandable, I think. :P

 

Then there is the question to ponder that there must have been a oolil amr living in the time of the prophet when that verse was revealed and the identity of him....because Quran is true for all times, and Since 4:83 indicates the defining and differentiating attribute of this oolil amr to be at the same knowledge level as the holy prophet Muhammad (pbuh), a level knowledge of far above and beyond the reach of others, by far, it is crystal clear from the verses that Ali ibn abi talib (as) was that oolil amr in the time of the Prophet.

Edited by Darth Vader

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Ulil amr refers to Ali and the imams of Ahlul bayt:

 

1) 'Isa Ibn Yusuf Hamadani reports from Abu'l-Hasan and Salim Ibn Qais, who report from Amiru'l-Mu'minin ‘Ali that the Holy Prophet said: "My associates are those whose obedience has been linked by Almighty Allah with His own obedience. It is they to whom He refers when He says 'Those in authority from among you.' It is necessary that you not oppose what they say. You should obey them and follow their orders." Amiru'l-Mu'minin goes on to say, "When I heard this, I said: "O Prophet, let me know who the 'uli'l-amr' are." The Prophet said: "O ‘Ali! You are the first of them."

 

(2) Muhammad Ibn Mu'min Shirazi, one of the most eminent Sunni religious scholars, writes in his Risala al-I'tiqadat that when the Holy Prophet appointed Amiru'l-Mu'minin his representative in Medina, the verse "uli'l-amr e Minkum" (And those in authority from among you) was revealed in reference to ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib.

 

From Shia sources we have:

 

On the commentary of the verse 4:59 of Qur’an in which Allah orders us to obey Ulul-Amr, al-Khazzaz in his book, Kifayatul Athar, gives a tradition on the authority of the well-known companion of the Prophet (S), Jabir Ibn Abdillah al-Ansari (ra):

When the verse (4:59) was revealed, Jabir asked the Prophet (S): "We know Allah and the Prophet, but who are those vested with authority whose obedience has been conjoined to that of Allah and yourself?"

The Prophet (S) said: "They are my Caliphs and the Imams of Muslims after me. The first of them is ‘Ali; then al-Hasan; then al-Husayn; then ‘Ali son of al-Husayn; then Muhammad son of ‘Ali who has been mentioned ‘al-Baqir’ in the Torah (the old testament). O Jabir! You will meet him. When you see him, convey my greetings to him. He will be succeeded by his son, Ja’far al-Sadiq (the Truthful); then Musa son of Ja’far; then ‘Ali son of Musa; then Muhammad son of ‘Ali; then ‘Ali son of Muhammad; then al-Hasan son of ‘Ali. He will be followed by his son whose name and nick name will be the same as mine. He will be Proof of Allah (Hujjatullah) on the earth, and the one spared by Allah (Baqiyyatullah) to maintain the cause of faith among mankind. He shall conquer the whole world from the east to the west. So long will he remain hidden from the eyes of his followers and friends that the belief in his leadership will remain only in those hearts which have been tested by Allah for faith."      ”(Kifayatul Athar, by al-Khazzaz, p53).

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110

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bruh they translate it 'Those in Authority'
Therfore whoever is given authority like, he metnioned ashabs made leader of army or even government or even judges today. they say its general for everyone.

then why do you fight with qadiyanis?

You generalized 'ulil-amr' but what do you say about Messenger?
We all know ashaab converyed message of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) which was actually message of Allah, does that make them messenger? 
Now say that as well!

really stupid!
now go and term it as "Sunni disortion of Messenger"

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

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On 1/28/2015 at 2:15 PM, guest050817 said:

Peace be with you,

 

I am not here to state that 'Ulil Amr' negates the Imams (عليه السلام). However, I do believe it does not necessarily refer to them. Often people argue that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would not ask us to obey a corrupt ruler, and hence not everyone who has been vested with authority among us is to be followed.

 

 

However, let us examine the verse:

 

Qur'an: O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

 

Contention 1:

 
The Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) made Usama the leader of his army and to be obeyed. He also left governors. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) himself appointed governors in different areas of the empire. Not everyone given authority was infallible yet was to be obeyed. The world would not work if we only obeyed infallible s, and not pious righteous individuals. We all obey our respective governments -unless they take us from Islam, where we can even employ taqqiyah if we fear for our lives.
 
Contention 2:
 
The verse states that if we differ over anything, we go back to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and his messenger. Now, why does it not say - refer back to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), his messenger, and those vested authority among you? This itself is a very revealing point.
 
 
 
So while the Imams (عليه السلام) can be included in the ulil-amr, it would take some logical and scriptural gymnastic interpretations which in my view, would be severely distorted.
 
I am open to challenges to change my view, but will not reply to anyone who merely copies and pastes large volumes of text. I want a discussion.

Firstly, your interpretation is false because if you think that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) has ordered us to follow fallible human beings which according to you is translation of "Ulul Amr", let us resort back to Qur'an to which this Surah states: "That if you have dispute about anything refer it back to Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and his messenger". In Qur'an, Allah (عزّ وجلّ) says: "Allah (عزّ وجلّ) does not do injustice". Now, if you say that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) asks us to follow "those who can make mistakes". You are indeed trying to say that He (عزّ وجلّ) makes mistakes to which He (عزّ وجلّ) refutes in Qur'an by saying that He (عزّ وجلّ) is free from errors or imperfections. 

So, here the term Ulul Amr refers to 12 Imams because it requires Allah (عزّ وجلّ) to choose perfect guides. In case of Imam Ali's appointment of Governors, he (عليه السلام) never said that they are free to use their brains in Islamic laws rather they should refer those matters to Imam Ali (عليه السلام). They were like tongues, hands and limbs of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and were not separate from him. It was due to this that when some of his companions did some mistakes, he (عليه السلام) immediately removed them from respective posts because they violated the injunction and failed to work as hands of Imam Ali (عليه السلام). 

Edited by Jibrael-e-Muhammadi

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On 1/28/2015 at 2:15 PM, guest050817 said:

However, I do believe it does not necessarily refer to them.

To understand "ulil amr", it is better to understand the "amr" first.

Surah Al-Qadr, Verse 4:
تَنَزَّلُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ فِيهَا بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِم مِّن كُلِّ أَمْرٍ

The angels and Jibreel descend in it by the permission of their Lord for every affair,
(English - Shakir)

This happens every year in "laylatul qadr". Towards whom angels descend? And whether they descend with the amr or whether they descends for taking the amr? 

:) Try to solve the mystery.

 

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