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In the Name of God بسم الله

Shia Scholars Converts To Sunnis

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ShiaHashmi

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As the mod Abu Tufayl said before, youre either made from the clay of the AhlulBayt (as) or youre not

can you prove this from Quran? as far as I understand all are made from same clay by which Prophet Adam was created. do you have some other idea about it?


How is that a bigger question? If a scholar can do it, then certainly some random person on ShiaChat could. And yes, there have been cases of Shias on the forum becoming Sunnis, or ending up somewhere in between. Again, it is neither surprising nor meaningful, except to those who have a very simplistic way of understanding things.

Allah says we created islam and Quran simple for every one to understand, why you try to prove it complex? Munqire Quran?


I wouldn't find it surprising if it was true. It doesn't really mean anything though.

people who studied shia islam for years and hard work decided to leave it for Sunni madhab why is it not surprising?

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A Muslim was Muslim before He Become Muslim. :P

 

How many was Shia and How many Was Sunni in 72 Martyr of Karbala ?

 

By the way again like to remind .. Sunni as word have no Value, it is a Derived meaning, Sunni stand alone have no Value. While Shia is a word.

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can you prove this from Quran? as far as I understand all are made from same clay by which Prophet Adam was created. do you have some other idea about it?

Allah says we created islam and Quran simple for every one to understand, why you try to prove it complex? Munqire Quran?

people who studied shia islam for years and hard work decided to leave it for Sunni madhab why is it not surprising?

(salam)

 

It is not that difficult bro. the same thing exists among the Sunni scholars becoming Shia. and even broader than what happened in Shia side, therefore it does not help with the realty. 

The best approach one could take is to consult Quran and Ahadith and then let his reasoning judges based on evidence.

Edited by mahdi servant.01
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here some of the Sunni scholars and intellectuals converted to Shia with Wiki page and their books

 

1- Al sheikh Maraa Al-antaki

 

https://archive.org/details/LemazaaAkhtartoShia

 

http://alfeker.net/uploads/pictures/e5rtshiamthh3%20%28000%29.jpg

 

 

2-Muhammad al-Tijani

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Tijani

 

3- Mutasim Sayed Ahamd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWAReQp1I_U

 

4-Hassan Mohamed Shehata Moussa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Mohamed_Shehata_Moussa

 

5- Lamyaa Hamadeh

https://archive.org/details/akhiran_495

 

6- Rasim Anafis

http://www.yasahra.com/1/almaqalat/ahmad%20rasm%20alnafees/Ahmad%20rasem.jpg

 

http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A3%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%AF_%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%B3%D9%85_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%86%D9%81%D9%8A%D8%B3

 

.....

 

there are still more

but unfortunately out of our laziness we did not make movie in order to introduce whom to the world

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people who studied shia islam for years and hard work decided to leave it for Sunni madhab why is it not surprising?

 

Because these people are modern day scholars, while we have seen companions of the Imams and their Wukala becoming corrupt, for example. Faith is a personal matter and just because you believe that something doesn't mean that it is actually right in reality or that others also see it as right. People convert to other religions all the time. Their actions should neither justify any religion or demote any religion to you. You are supposed to believe in a religion because you consider it right, not because Person X converted to it. 

 

This is one of the reasons why I consider many of the "Sunni scholars becomes Shia" threads pointless. Unless this scholar is giving some really useful argument, there isn't much utility to it, from a theological point of view, at least, though I suppose it does help with morale...

here some of the Sunni scholars and intellectuals converted to Shia with Wiki page and their books

 

1- Al sheikh Maraa Al-antaki

 

https://archive.org/details/LemazaaAkhtartoShia

 

http://alfeker.net/uploads/pictures/e5rtshiamthh3%20%28000%29.jpg

 

 

2-Muhammad al-Tijani

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Tijani

 

3- Mutasim Sayed Ahamd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWAReQp1I_U

 

4-Hassan Mohamed Shehata Moussa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Mohamed_Shehata_Moussa

 

5- Lamyaa Hamadeh

https://archive.org/details/akhiran_495

 

6- Rasim Anafis

http://www.yasahra.com/1/almaqalat/ahmad%20rasm%20alnafees/Ahmad%20rasem.jpg

 

http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A3%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%AF_%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%B3%D9%85_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%86%D9%81%D9%8A%D8%B3

 

.....

 

there are still more

but unfortunately out of our laziness we did not make movie in order to introduce whom to the world

 

The point of your information being? It seems to me that you are turning religion in a battle of conversions - and this is a problem that plagues large swathes of our community - whereby the madhab which scores the largest number of conversions from the other is automatically right. As I've said above, their personal decisions should have no impact on you and what you believe so these numbers mean nothing, honestly.

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I'm pretty sure Shias spend a lot more time promoting Tijani and his books (which are of dubious quality) than Sunnis do with any ex-Shias.

Prophet said don't look down at any ma'rouf.

لا تحقرن شيئا من المعروف

Verily, writing a book to show the upright way of the followers of ahlulbayt is ma'rouf. Ad verily, underestimating our brothers efforts to propagate the word of ahlulbayt and going further to talk lowly about them without thinking of the bad effect on our ummah , just for personal liking(Shia ummah) is a munkar.

The man wrote the book before the net that makes the fool looks very knowledgeable , he wrote it with limited resources. The book was reviewed by the center of aqa'ed in QUM, corrections were made , grading of hadiths added and sources were provided.

و لعن الله الشاك

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who are we  to judge those who are on such high level of knowledge? bunch of sc pickles think, they have some religious authority to bestow different insults upon grand mullahs. How about we stop criticizing these people? thank you 

(This msg is for those who are out to decide who is good and who is bad) 

“The whole universe is sum up in the Human Being. Devil is not a monster waiting to trap us, He is a voice inside. Look for Your Devil in Yourself, not in the Others. Don’t forget that the one who knows his Devil, knows his God.” -Shams Tabrizi (ra)

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Prophet said don't look down at any ma'rouf.

لا تحقرن شيئا من المعروف

Verily, writing a book to show the upright way of the followers of ahlulbayt is ma'rouf. Ad verily, underestimating our brothers efforts to propagate the word of ahlulbayt and going further to talk lowly about them without thinking of the bad effect on our ummah , just for personal liking(Shia ummah) is a munkar.

The man wrote the book before the net that makes the fool looks very knowledgeable , he wrote it with limited resources. The book was reviewed by the center of aqa'ed in QUM, corrections were made , grading of hadiths added and sources were provided.

و لعن الله الشاك

Writing books full of arguments that can easily be refuted does more harm than good unless you are simply trying to appeal to simple-minded people who have no means of checking anything. The fact that it was written before the Internet is no excuse given the fact that he claims to have had all the sources at his disposal (just look at his references section).

What some people here don't seem to understand is that it only takes a few examples of misleading quotations or fallacious arguments to undermine a whole book, that may otherwise be full of truth. That allows your opponents to concentrate on the clear cut errors, rather than dealing with the more substantial points. In the case of 'Then I was guided', for example, it's hard to read almost a single page without finding some issue with it. Almost right from the beginning, he starts making claims that he doesn't justify, and refers to things that he doesn't cite a reference for. Just imagine if a Sunni reads this book, finds some things in it convincing, and then decides to check some of these things out with a more knowledgeable Sunni (as anyone with a brain would do). Now let's say that after a few pages several examples of serious mistakes have already been found. Don't you think this would shake the confidence of the reader in the book, and by extension the arguments it presents?

There is also a problem with presenting someone who had never read Bukhari or Muslim as a 'Sunni scholar or intellectual'. Why would you want such a weak candidate as your most famous apologist? This isn't about putting down Tijani. It's not his fault that his books were given such wide circulation by the Shia community. The criticism is more aimed at the community than him. To be honest, it betrays a shocking lack of intellectual maturity.

Edited by Haydar Husayn
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Prophet said don't look down at any ma'rouf.

لا تحقرن شيئا من المعروف

Verily, writing a book to show the upright way of the followers of ahlulbayt is ma'rouf. Ad verily, underestimating our brothers efforts to propagate the word of ahlulbayt and going further to talk lowly about them without thinking of the bad effect on our ummah , just for personal liking(Shia ummah) is a munkar.

The man wrote the book before the net that makes the fool looks very knowledgeable , he wrote it with limited resources. The book was reviewed by the center of aqa'ed in QUM, corrections were made , grading of hadiths added and sources were provided.

و لعن الله الشاك

السلام عليكم

You might be correct to some extent. However, considering that the book as well as Peshawar nights(which unfortunately needs a lot of serious revision as well) are popularly known as the face of Shi'a polemics among the Sunni and Shi'a laymen ever since their release to the public, when they become "dissected" by the opponents and there is no response from our side, the overall result of that could be damaging in the long run. Mainly, since it would imply for the average laymen that these books are technically the face of Imami polemics, so once they are "refuted", then the people would deceptively be fooled to think Shi'asim is refuted as well. And obviously, that is not the case since as you stated, these books touch the surface of the topics being discussed and I am aware the Shaykh Tijani's as well as any soundly knowledgable Shi'a does have a potential to go beyond what he wrote in countering the opponents. However, it still would not hurt to make a revision where they go beyond the surface of the topics being discussed to get the readers a better understanding of the Imami position and especially to weaken the opponents deception from their responses, who themselves actually went beyond the surface of these arguments, hence making their positions apparent look sounder to the average ignorant laymen.

The only example so far that I can think of is Uthman Al-Khamees's response to Tijani's book. It's a ridiculous book overall and for most of the time, Al-Khamees applies the standards of Sunni 'Ilm Al-Rijal to base his arguments in weakening the pro-Shi'a Ahadith which he deems are weak based on these subjective standards, but when in reality they are historically famous. For example, he weakened the famous Hadith; "..Ali's fight for the Taweel of the Quran" based on some narrations of it in Sunni books which he weakened their Sanad, while dismissing the argument of the excessive Tawatur that the Hadith reached to the point where it shows for any knowledgable researcher in Islamic history who is unbiased or leaned towards any subjective method of authenticating Ahadith(for example Sunni rijal), that it in reality it was a famous Hadith for both, Imamis and Sunnis historically. However, the average layman does not know that, nor does he/she has the capability to verify all of this information, hence will be easy deceived by the opponents based on the apparent of their baseless arguments.

And the unfortunate overall result is disasters like this:

http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/why-a-15-year-old-left-shiaism/

"..From then on I read pro-sunni and pro-shia posts (like Tijani's book) and after months of researching I said my shahada again and declared myself a sunni (Hanafi)."

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I think people fail to realize books like that of Tijani's were written before the time of this proto-sunni rijalism wave. Before the time where past sunni scholars and the madhabs legitimately took their major hadith books as fully authentic. Therefore in that sense, such books are highly credible and to this day, there sure has to be, in places like the sub continent, where this saudi endorsed madhab "whitewashing", may have not reached, have held on to their views from their scholars and madhab leaders. These previous sunni authors were not some random sunni layman who became a shia and wrote a book, they are and were credible.

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السلام عليكم

You might be correct to some extent. However, considering that the book as well as Peshawar nights(which unfortunately needs a lot of serious revision as well) are popularly known as the face of Shi'a polemics among the Sunni and Shi'a laymen ever since their release to the public, when they become "dissected" by the opponents and there is no response from our side, the overall result of that could be damaging in the long run. Mainly, since it would imply for the average laymen that these books are technically the face of Imami polemics, so once they are "refuted", then the people would deceptively be fooled to think Shi'asim is refuted as well. And obviously, that is not the case since as you stated, these books touch the surface of the topics being discussed and I am aware the Shaykh Tijani's as well as any soundly knowledgable Shi'a does have a potential to go beyond what he wrote in countering the opponents. However, it still would not hurt to make a revision where they go beyond the surface of the topics being discussed to get the readers a better understanding of the Imami position and especially to weaken the opponents deception from their responses, who themselves actually went beyond the surface of these arguments, hence making their positions apparent look sounder to the average ignorant laymen.

The only example so far that I can think of is Uthman Al-Khamees's response to Tijani's book. It's a ridiculous book overall and for most of the time, Al-Khamees applies the standards of Sunni 'Ilm Al-Rijal to base his arguments in weakening the pro-Shi'a Ahadith which he deems are weak based on these subjective standards, but when in reality they are historically famous. For example, he weakened the famous Hadith; "..Ali's fight for the Taweel of the Quran" based on some narrations of it in Sunni books which he weakened their Sanad, while dismissing the argument of the excessive Tawatur that the Hadith reached to the point where it shows for any knowledgable researcher in Islamic history who is unbiased or leaned towards any subjective method of authenticating Ahadith(for example Sunni rijal), that it in reality it was a famous Hadith for both, Imamis and Sunnis historically. However, the average layman does not know that, nor does he/she has the capability to verify all of this information, hence will be easy deceived by the opponents based on the apparent of their baseless arguments.

And the unfortunate overall result is disasters like this: http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/why-a-15-year-old-left-shiaism/

"..From then on I read pro-sunni and pro-shia posts (like Tijani's book) and after months of researching I said my shahada again and declared myself a sunni (Hanafi)."

The book was reviewed by the aqa'ed center, read their words here

http://ar.lib.eshia.ir/70413/1/9

And honestly, as I am Ali said : if I cut the believer many times then he was resurrected, he will become a believer again, and if I gave the disbeliever all the gold of earth, he will still hate me.

Our collective pride in our path is as important as the strong reputations of nasibis. It helps up in correcting each other and augment each others stance, work better as a team, instead of this .

I'm not stranger to Shia Shia book reviews , and Shia Shia debate and Shia tendency to make persons as sacred and untouchable. But ...nvm.

Be well.

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The problems with Tijani's books have little to do with 'rijalism' (although obviously this is something that would need to be at least mentioned in such a book). There are far more serious issues, such as incorrect quotations, incorrect sources, unsourced claims, and a wildely inconsistent methodology. For a start, how can you claim to be writing a book from a neutral point of view, while never engaging with any serious Sunni arguments? The books are completely unscholarly, and it's embarrassing to be giving them such major prominence. Obviously that isn't to say that there aren't good points made in the book, but they are obscured by the serious flaws.

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Because these people are modern day scholars, while we have seen companions of the Imams and their Wukala becoming corrupt, for example. Faith is a personal matter and just because you believe that something doesn't mean that it is actually right in reality or that others also see it as right. People convert to other religions all the time. Their actions should neither justify any religion or demote any religion to you. You are supposed to believe in a religion because you consider it right, not because Person X converted to it. 

 

This is one of the reasons why I consider many of the "Sunni scholars becomes Shia" threads pointless. Unless this scholar is giving some really useful argument, there isn't much utility to it, from a theological point of view, at least, though I suppose it does help with morale...

 

The point of your information being? It seems to me that you are turning religion in a battle of conversions - and this is a problem that plagues large swathes of our community - whereby the madhab which scores the largest number of conversions from the other is automatically right. As I've said above, their personal decisions should have no impact on you and what you believe so these numbers mean nothing, honestly.

dear, I had already mentioned what you said.

it seems that you missed it, anyway, thank you for your attention.

 

(salam)

 

It is not that difficult bro. the same thing exists among the Sunni scholars becoming Shia. and even broader than what happened in Shia side, therefore it does not help with the realty. 

The best approach one could take is to consult Quran and Ahadith and then let his reasoning judges based on evidence.

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure Shias spend a lot more time promoting Tijani and his books (which are of dubious quality) than Sunnis do with any ex-Shias.

 

nope! I do not think so. This is plainly obvious that Sunnis are much better prompting their teachings via medias and books. All efforts that Shia do in comparison to what they do is really small. this is what needs no evidence. just have a short look at their community throughout the world. their mosques, their Islamic centers and publishions. despite their weak and poor arguments and theology upon the important questions arise for every muslim people embrace it and meantime they are totally unaware of even a school of thought named Shia. why is that??  

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The point of your information being? It seems to me that you are turning religion in a battle of conversions - and this is a problem that plagues large swathes of our community - whereby the madhab which scores the largest number of conversions from the other is automatically right. As I've said above, their personal decisions should have no impact on you and what you believe so these numbers mean nothing, honestly.

 

Well said.  

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The problems with Tijani's books have little to do with 'rijalism' (although obviously this is something that would need to be at least mentioned in such a book). There are far more serious issues, such as incorrect quotations, incorrect sources, unsourced claims, and a wildely inconsistent methodology. For a start, how can you claim to be writing a book from a neutral point of view, while never engaging with any serious Sunni arguments? The books are completely unscholarly, and it's embarrassing to be giving them such major prominence. Obviously that isn't to say that there aren't good points made in the book, but they are obscured by the serious flaws.

 

Were Tijani's books even intended to be scholarly? At least in the case of Then I was Guided... he seems to focus more on his personal journey than anything else.

 

But I digress, Tijani is by no means a high ranking marja or wakil, so his errors are perhaps to be expected. The problem I think is the nature of the organization of Shi'a da'wa in other countries. Books like Peshawar Nights and Then I Was Guided were promoted to the laity because they were simple to understand. Personally, I feel some people are too harsh on Peshawar Nights for what it is, since there's a difference between a book clearly geared towards scholarly minds of both schools and a book geared towards the uneducated of one school and assuring them of the soundness of their position. One finds examples of this throughout history with every minority religion. Often times, what the common people of these faiths need most is a feeling like they are correct in their position. Peshawar Nights I always felt was written for that purpose, rather than as a serious reply to Sunni scholars. It's directed towards Shi'ite laity who may be ignorant about some of the justifications of many of their religion's positions. If you read old Arabic writings by Christians of their debates with Muslim scholars and philosophers, you notice a similar trend because the writings weren't meant to be published for Muslims to read, they were meant for Christians to better understand their religion in the face of common Muslim polemics they were likely to hear everyday in their interactions with Muslims, so the "debate" be it historical or ahistorical becomes merely a question and answer game. So I think in that light some of Peshawar Nights' flaws could be forgiven because it isn't necessarily geared towards Sunnis or non-Shi'a, but geared more towards the common Shi'a. Though personally, I think there are books in that same vein which are much better reads than Peshawar Nights or Then I Was Guided.

 

Part of the problem though is that the organization of Shi'a in other countries, particularly Western countries leaves a lot to be desired. Books like Peshawar Nights and Then I Was Guided I think are mediocre when compared to some of the books that have been written and published by some of the scholars or wakils based here in the West and I think those are the ones that deserve the most promotion, but I think it's understandable considering the conditions of the Shi'a communities in the West or in other parts of the Middle East or Central Asia that books that appeal to the least common denominator and readily available become so popular. The error, however, is not always in the book itself, but may be the book being promoted in such a way that is unbefitting its real character. Peshawar Nights wouldn't be so embarrassing if it came with proper disclaimer and wasn't promoted over something like, say, Imam Qazwini's Inquiries into Shi'a Islam to non-Shi'a. But I think some of the Iranian and Pakistani missionaries were more interested back in the 70's and 80's in giving Shi'a a pick-me-up at the time and so unearthed things like Peshawar Nights or promoted Tijani's works without approaching them critically enough themselves. It also didn't help that early expat communities living in the UK and USA didn't have really very many books to promote or argue for their religion other than these works. They also became the most widely available works on the internet.

 

As a result, like Al-Najashi says, these sorts of books, which may or may not have been so bad if they were just kept in their proper place where they could be ignored or properly dissected, became "the face of Shi'a Imami polemics" for some. Books like those mentioned above will probably always be published as a matter of tradition, but we should probably work harder to undo some of the damage they have unintentionally done to our image.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23
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