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StrugglingForTheLight

Women And Equality In Islam

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ALL good rights r for men!

 

Don't be so disappointed.

 

The father cannot compare with the mother's place in Islam.

 

Once someone asked the Prophet who he should have the greatest respect for.

 

The Prophet replied - the mother.

 

The man then asked "And then?"

 

The Prophet again said - the mother.

 

The man again asked  "Who then"?

 

The Prophet replied "the mother".

 

The man again asked "And then"?

 

This times the Prophet replied "the father". 

Three times the Prophet said - the mother - and the fourth time, the father. 

 

The mother is much superior in the eyes of God than the father. 

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Don't be so disappointed.

The father cannot compare with the mother's place in Islam.

Once someone asked the Prophet who he should have the greatest respect for.

The Prophet replied - the mother.

The man then asked "And then?"

The Prophet again said - the mother.

The man again asked "Who then"?

The Prophet replied "the mother".

The man again asked "And then"?

This times the Prophet replied "the father".

Three times the Prophet said - the mother - and the fourth time, the father.

The mother is much superior in the eyes of God than the father.

See,isnt it right?

A woman must clean the home,train children,cook food,and do ALL things but she even cant go out without her husband permission,even she cant refuse his sex requesting? Why at last Muslims say yes coz women r so,then cant do so! Women cant do this,this,this,...

Being a woman/girl is so bad! Lots of problems and the least rights and Muslims words!

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See,isnt it right?

A woman must clean the home,train children,cook food,and do ALL things but she even cant go out without her husband permission,even she cant refuse his sex requesting? Why at last Muslims say yes coz women r so,then cant do so! Women cant do this,this,this,...

Being a woman/girl is so bad! Lots of problems and the least rights and Muslims words!

 

No, she doesn't have to clean the home or cook the food, and the training of children is the responsibility of the father.  Like I said, women will naturally take on whatever needs to be done.  That is why men are assigned roles - because Allah knows that most women will do whatever isn't assigned and needs to be done.

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The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

[24:2]

 

...your point being?

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Why are countless threads always repeated? These points already been refuted over and over again. Do people not understand how to research a topic before raising a false assumption? I think their motives are quite clear.

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...your point being?

(bismillah)

 

Isn't it obvious to all?

 

Compassion is bad - and this just because someone had the temerity to call compassion a virtue more pronounced in women than in men...

 

I guess some of us would rather die than agree that a woman can have any virtues or rights at all...

 

What a sad world... And I would be really scared to use Qur'an the way some people do... 

 

Amina

Edited by Amina

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Some of it is hard for me to understand too.  But for a family to be stable, there has to be a hierarchy.  If nobody or everybody wants to be the leader, things will fall apart, and that's the reason for some of these "rights".  Every right is coupled with a responsibility, for example, the wife has a right to be provided with home, food, and clothing, along with all else that her husband can provide that is normal in her society.  In exchange, she has the responsibility to obey her husband's wishes, in particular regarding sexual needs and her comings and goings.  The husband has a right to his wife's obedience, and in exchange he has the responsibility to provide for her material needs and provide her with as stable and safe a home as he is able.

 

 

As for the claim of women being more emotional than men, that is the opposite of what I've observed.

 

Ive heard this response a lot, but you can still have a stable family without having scenarios that appear to be unfair between sexes.

Why are countless threads always repeated? These points already been refuted over and over again. Do people not understand how to research a topic before raising a false assumption? I think their motives are quite clear.

 

Its probably brought up repetitively because people are abusing the laws. Cherry picking them, like the one there about cooking, and leaving the home without permission.

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Where does the hadeeth say that?

There's more than one hadeeth. Just do a quick search on Google, or look up Sistani's rulings.

(bismillah)

 

Isn't it obvious to all?

 

Compassion is bad - and this just because someone had the temerity to call compassion a virtue more pronounced in women than in men...

 

I guess some of us would rather die than agree that a woman can have any virtues or rights at all...

 

What a sad world... And I would be really scared to use Qur'an the way some people do... 

 

Amina

Compassion is not a bad virtue, but it has its time and place.

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Why in Islam are woman not given equal rights?

 

For example, for divorce, why is a man allowed to divorce a woman simply because he doesn't want to be married anymore while the woman has to go through a court and show that some of her rights are not being taken care of and simply can't get divorced for simply being dissatisfied with the marriage?

 

Why do men inherit more money then women (upon death of parents)?

 

Why are women required to ask permission to leave the house and go somewhere?

 

Why are women required to obey the husband?

 

Why can't a woman be allowed to refuse to have sex with her husband upon the husband's request?

 

Don't these laws seem sexist?

 

1. Depends on how you define "equal" we have a habit of thinking the quality of rights is necessarily equal to the quantity of them.

 

2. That depends on your marja. I've read some fatwas that say the woman doesn't need to formally ask for permission if there is no reason to fear that any danger will come to her and that she will do anything dishonorable. But asking for permission makes perfect sense when you consider that women are generally weaker. If you live in an area where you have to worry about possible abuse or danger coming to her, it makes perfect sense.

 

3. Men are usually expected to be the main providers. They may inherit more, but they are expected to spend more of that inheritance on others besides themselves.

 

4. I have never seen a serious issue with this from a philosophical perspective. Even in a relationship where the woman is much more aggressive or dominant, it's important for the health of the male psyche that the man in the relationship feels like he has some measure of control. Men who feel like their masculinity, which is usually associated with their need to control the circumstances affecting their lives, is being repressed or jeopardized tend to become depressed or even violent. I don't think "obedience" of the wife to the husband need be absolute in the sense that she just follows whatever he says or does without any protest. After all, the wife's ultimate obedience is to God and therefore her obligations to her husband  only extend as far as his whims comply with the divine decrees. But nevertheless, it is important for the mental health of a man to feel like he has control or at least has an executive decision making power in the relationship, even if he were say ultimately just following the advice of his wife in making those executive decisions.

 

5. I'm not going to give the cliche answer here that men are time bombs of sexual frustrations. I think that's a weak argument and ultimately disrespectful to men, making it seem like they are wild animals who need to be constantly placated rather than human beings who should be expected to exercise self control and patience. It also opens the door for men to excuse themselves from committing adulterous acts by blaming the wife or women in general for not "putting out" for him. It also further degrades marriage as merely glorified a form of prostitution and conflicts with the traditions of the Prophets and Imams which emphasize the spiritual benefits of marriage over the material benefits. A good marriage in my opinion, requires sexual contact, but it doesn't require a lot of sex to be a healthy marriage in the sense that a marriage in which the only benefit is the stimulation of sexual contact is a marriage that is built on a crumbling fabric, regardless of whether the couple has sex frequently or infrequently. Attention needs to be paid to those spiritual and emotional elements that make a marriage healthy and sometimes that requires the man in the relationship to put his physical desires on hold. My perspective is that a woman should not deny the husband's sexual advances without some good reason, but I think her being tired or just wanting to talk are good enough reasons that the husband shouldn't just say "no, I don't care how you feel." Sexual relations aren't the end in marriage, they are a means and sometimes one means, no matter how sacred, can obstruct the true end if some other means haven't been utilized first. And sometimes the solutions to a person's problem isn't marriage or sexual relations. A husband may be demanding sexual attention from his wife when he is experiencing some kind of internal dilemma because he wants something to take the pain away, but in some cases he has to deal with the pain directly and not rely on temporary releases. So a "good reason" for a wife's refusal may be that she has deduced that sexual attention isn't what he really needs to be content at the present moment. Likewise, if sexuality would interfere with the wife's other obligations to God, she has the right to refuse. Refusal for refusal's sake makes no sense, but I would say there are plenty of good reasons a wife may be allowed to refuse her husband's advances even when she is perfectly able if she has her husband's own happiness and spiritual health in mind or feels that another greater religious obligation would be ignored in her individual case were she to consent to those advances at the present moment. Also, the husband must be aware that he cannot objectify his wife as a mere repository for his sexual frustrations and he must also understand that she may not be refusing him because she's indignant but because his own lack of attention to her emotional or spiritual needs has made the conjugal experience a chore on top of other chores expected of her rather than a sacred and holy act.

 

5. You can't make two different genders completely equal, otherwise they wouldn't be different genders.

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(bismillah)

 

(salam) Saintly Jinn,

 

I think you are the first to mention that the marriage of the two faithful can have some spiritual and emotional qualities and reasons, and not only sexual, which is just about the only argument we've heard so far... 

 

A good point, and a very common-sense one, I should think, but for some, it starts and ends with sex - I really must ask myself why some men would degrade themselves to being only sexual animals, as someone said earlier?

 

The most believing men I knew were fully aware that they didn't just marry to have a house-cleaner and an always-willing sex-slave, over whom they have the power to deny breathing, if the whim took them.

 

It is truly degrading to men, and the insult to many a Muslim husband who puts the welfare of their families over their own.

 

By the way, an intelligent man knows how to make his wife want to do everything possible to please him (and vice versa), but some obviously haven't discovered the secret formula yet...  :D  Only a man with limited resources has to force and twist the arm of his wife to get some love - if that can be called love at all...

 

(And it doesn't need much work to create that kind of atmosphere at home, believe me).

 

Kindest regards,

 

Amina

Edited by Amina

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I don't know if the differences in emotion make it all justifiable to be given this much different rights. For example, what does the fact a woman is more emotional let her not be able to demand sex of her husband and the husband has to respond, but it's rather the state that a woman must always obey the demand for sex for her husband. Why didn't this go two ways? I also don't get why there has to be authority in a family when two parents can both be authorities and discuss and come to agreement rather then one having authority over the other. Also, being more emotional doesn't go to the extent that women do irrational decisions. That's just a sexist thing to say.  And woman do also spend on the family and don't keep all the money for themselves and the man decides the extent of money he spends on his family and keeps to/spends on himself as well...so even with this right thing to the wealth, it seems rather unfair men inherit more than women.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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These things are the way they are because Allah decides they are the best way to run a society, just as He decided that on average men should have superior physical strength to women. How come we never see anyone ask why men and women were not created with equal physical attributes? Is that not unfair? Arguably that discrepancy has led to more suffering for women than any other. After all, had men and women been of equal strength, then men would not have needed to be the protectors or main breadwinners in former times, which led to the rise of the dreaded 'patriarchal system'. You also wouldn't have had as much domestic violence and rape as has occurred in human history.

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Oh God... The subtle attacks are hilarious, may i remind everyone to aim to understand each other rather than reflexively be defensive. Most of us are past puberty, I don't think it is too much to ask.

As for the word "emotional", everyone seems to have their own definition... So let us aim to read it in context (understand, don't be defensive as if we are insulting one another). Being emotional does not necessarily mean it is something "negative". If i were to use the word "emo", then yes you can imply that i am referring to something "undesirable".

I don't feel I need to explain why my posts are not sexist, just relinquish your bias and re-read.

As to the OP's last post (and a few others lol)...

I gave very brief replies and also replies that were specific to each of your questions. Do not take a reply to the 2nd or 3rd question and apply it to the 5th question.

Stay well.

Edited by dragonxx

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(bismillah)

 

(salam) Saintly Jinn,

 

I think you are the first to mention that the marriage of the two faithful can have some spiritual and emotional qualities and reasons, and not only sexual, which is just about the only argument we've heard so far... 

 

A good point, and a very common-sense one, I should think, but for some, it starts and ends with sex - I really must ask myself why some men would degrade themselves to being only sexual animals, as someone said earlier?

 

The most believing men I knew were fully aware that they didn't just marry to have a house-cleaner and an always-willing sex-slave, over whom they have the power to deny breathing, if the whim took them.

 

It is truly degrading to men, and the insult to many a Muslim husband who puts the welfare of their families over their own.

 

By the way, an intelligent man knows how to make his wife want to do everything possible to please him (and vice versa), but some obviously haven't discovered the secret formula yet...  :D  Only a man with limited resources has to force and twist the arm of his wife to get some love - if that can be called love at all...

 

(And it doesn't need much work to create that kind of atmosphere at home, believe me).

 

Kindest regards,

 

Amina

(salam)

 

I've figured out the "formula" and how to make the wives do everything .

 

post-133071-0-73290400-1422240273_thumb.

 

 

and this formula is not to make her do anything 

 

post-133071-0-75264700-1422240547_thumb.

 

Kindest Regards 

 

Sami 

 

Edited by :Sami II

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In court, can a woman divorce a man because she no longer loves him?

If anyone can no longer love a person, they never loved them in the first place. Islamically, it must be more than that: she must despise him. In a secular court most jurisdictions have "no fault" divorce.

It would be unfair if a woman can issue a divorce like how men do!

Why?

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It would be unfair if a woman can issue a divorce like how men do!

Why it s unfair?

If Islam says men can divorce women,coz it has a reason

See. If a man loves his wife,it caused that his wife loves him too! But if a man does not love his wife anymore,so then his wife wont love him! So they cannot live with each other anymore. But if a woman does not love her husband, man tries to attract her! So if a man doesnot love his wife,they cant continue with each other anymore. But if woman doesnot love her husband,they can live with each other yet! Man loves her and his love will continue to her,even if she doesnt love him!

In court, can a woman divorce a man because she no longer loves him?

If wife and husband record these in their marriage contract,woman can divorce:

E.g. if man bothers his wife,or getting marry again or leaves her for a while ...

Again I say. They both must agree with these

Edited by Life=Abbas

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Our Creator is Just - so all His Laws are Just! So anything which contradicts His Laws is injustice!

 

True, but that doesn't mean we should just accept without trying to understand.  There are some things that we don't understand, and until we gain that understanding we must follow, but we should always strive to learn and know more about our religion.

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I was thinking about another issue. For example i can't understand why when a woman sleeps with a man without marriage, her family would kill/beat her and when a man does that, there is no problem or some families even are okay with that because he is a man! Or another example: husband beats his wife because for example she didn't take the laundry from the dryer or she lost her keys or whatever.. This is just a stupid reason.. Islam says that women sins the same way like men some societies are ok with for example man who has a gf but not with a woman who has a bf? I have a iraqi friend, she spoke about that with her abusive husband, he got angry more and he just said: this is the culture! So where is islam? Culture is more important? :/

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True, but that doesn't mean we should just accept without trying to understand.  There are some things that we don't understand, and until we gain that understanding we must follow, but we should always strive to learn and know more about our religion.

All the reasons I hear are from apologists! I want proof from the Holy Qur`an are Sunnah that He Made this Law for such and such reason, not just guesses.

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I was thinking about another issue. For example i can't understand why when a woman sleeps with a man without marriage, her family would kill/beat her and when a man does that, there is no problem or some families even are okay with that because he is a man! Or another example: husband beats his wife because for example she didn't take the laundry from the dryer or she lost her keys or whatever.. This is just a stupid reason.. Islam says that women sins the same way like men some societies are ok with for example man who has a gf but not with a woman who has a bf? I have a iraqi friend, she spoke about that with her abusive husband, he got angry more and he just said: this is the culture! So where is islam? Culture is more important? :/

In many cases culture is more important to the families than Islam itself. How many arab girls find the possibility to marry a white man if he's muslim and shia? Something like that, which is perfectly halal, is seen almost if it was haraam.

This happens because our culture has zero respect for free will. And I believe it is a form of self defense towards the people of our culture. Many of them, if given freedom, would really deviate and act wrongly. So a very limited culture with a lot of social pressure has been the only way to pressure most people not to act as animals.

This offered some advantages as said above, but at a very high price, especially for women.

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In many cases culture is more important to the families than Islam itself. How many arab girls find the possibility to marry a white man if he's muslim and shia? Something like that, which is perfectly halal, is seen almost if it was haraam.

This happens because our culture has zero respect for free will. And I believe it is a form of self defense towards the people of our culture. Many of them, if given freedom, would really deviate and act wrongly. So a very limited culture with a lot of social pressure has been the only way to pressure most people not to act as animals.

This offered some advantages as said above, but at a very high price, especially for women.

Now must say what does freedom mean? Sleeping with people without marriage? Muslim men can do that even if its not allowed. Divorce because he wants to? Sure. Have romance, chit chat with other girls? Why not! Beat his wife because he is the king of everything and a wife is just a slave for cleaning and cooking? Yes! Muslim men doesn't need freedom to do that. Where is a woman in this? Where are her feelings? Her rights? Where are her rights and her status from islam? Nowhere. This is a sad truth about some countries and their cultures. :(

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Now must say what does freedom mean? Sleeping with people without marriage? Muslim men can do that even if its not allowed. Divorce because he wants to? Sure. Have romance, chit chat with other girls? Why not! Beat his wife because he is the king of everything and a wife is just a slave for cleaning and cooking? Yes! Muslim men doesn't need freedom to do that. Where is a woman in this? Where are her feelings? Her rights? Where are her rights and her status from islam? Nowhere. This is a sad truth about some countries and their cultures. :(

Freedom is a concept that goes beyond religion. But if a woman accepts the islamic way, she will have to sacrifice some of her freedom for other rights. What I defend is that she should be free whether to choose that islamic lifestyle or not, and nobody should judge her except God. That's why I'm against the idea of an Islamic state, because religion as an obligation is just bliss, a system of cruelty as Nitzche would say.

Freedom is a personal right that the Quran itself respect, we can notice that in several ayat. There is no obligation in religion. However, our culture is far from respecting a personal right such as freedom.

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Freedom is a concept that goes beyond religion. But if a woman accepts the islamic way, she will have to sacrifice some of her freedom for other rights. What I defend is that she should be free whether to choose that islamic lifestyle or not, and nobody should judge her except God. That's why I'm against the idea of an Islamic state, because religion as an obligation is just bliss, a system of cruelty as Nitzche would say.

Freedom is a personal right that the Quran itself respect, we can notice that in several ayat. There is no obligation in religion. However, our culture is far from respecting a personal right such as freedom.

We have our brains, our choice and we should know what is good, what is not. Personally i think some of things like not sleeping with someone before marriage, not meeting boys/girls, not going to clubs, not drinking and smoking are good. I agree with that in 100% but everyone should be punished in the same way. My iraqi friend talks to me alot about that. She says she loves to talk to me because she feels i understand her because im from a different culture. Well, its true but i don't understand the answer: "because he is a man!" "Okay, so why he can back to home late but a woman can't?" "Because he is a man!" " Why none would beat him if someone will see him talking with girls?" "Because he is a man!" To make it clear i don't even like to go out but its just about the fact. :P MAN- the king? The most important person in this world? To be honest, i could obey my man if:

-he is more mature and has more experience

- i trust him

- i know he wants to protect me

- he is not a hypocrite and doesn't treat me like a slave just because im a woman

- he is smart and he knows that i have my opinion as well.

I know i don't need to understand other's cultures because i look at it from my european view but the thing i want to understand is why this culture is more important than islam and why when i try to talk about it there is just one answer: because he is a man.. They don't know the answer, they just follow it so why i should know it.

I just feel so sorry for some women because they don't know their rights and im also full of respect because even if their husbands are bad, they don't divorce (some does) them.

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So a man is allowed to divorce for not loving a woman anymore, but a woman can't? Also, are you sure hating the husband is good enough reason to divorce in Islamic court?

Allowed, yes, but it is a detestable thing. If the "Islamic Court" really is Islamic, hating the husband is valid reason for divorce.

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