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To Believe An Imam Grants Dua Is Shirk (Sistani)

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The fatwa given by Ayat ullah Sistani is very clear to every Shia muslim,

 

But this should also be understand by the persons who consider Tauheed as only one and alone part of Shia Belief (thus neglecting the other 4) and presenting it with a slalfi mind set and considering the others misguided or polytheist.

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110

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Do you believe Imaam Ali (a.s) can help you independantly without God?

If Imam Ali (as) will not get martyred in prostration, then may be many will never accept claim of his as human being. 

 

But Allah knows how to convey message to human brain who are capable to understand him. Allah is the only Almighty, Wa dahu La Shareek

 

I don't think anyone is going to deny it specially in Ithna Ashri atleast ....

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Calling Imam Ali for help is permitted. The Grand Ayatullah Sheikh Bashir Hussain Najfi also issued fatwa for its permission:

 

http://www.alnajafi.org/questions-and-answers/41-aqeedah/55-question-on-ya-ali-madad.html

 

Regards.

Edited by skamran110

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

This is an issue related to 'Aqeedah and not fiqh. In Islam, especially in our Madhab, it is Haram to blindly follow someone, whether he is a Faqih or any other person on matters related to Aqeedah since the person must convince them self on these issues(for example Tawheed, prophethood, Jannah, hellfire ect) and derive their belief on them via their Aql and reasoning using the evidence for those doctrines that are available him. This is not an issue related to Fiqh where one is unable to derive a conclusion on a specific everyday matter related to his life and can't decide whether it is Halal or Haram, hence must refer to a Faqih who is an expert on this field to get an answer. This is what those respected 'Ulama mentioned above stated in the beginning of their Risalah and their position is based on numerous Ahadith where the A'mimahع criticized blind following someone on all matters related to the religion. With that said, if Sayed Sistani حbeliefs in the permissibility of reciting "Ya Ali Madad", it does not mean that his follower is obliged to follow him on it as he is obliged to follow him on issues related to Fiqh that is related to his everyday life and cannot solve by himself, especially if he is not convinced on it or the conclusions used to derive it.

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

This is an issue related to 'Aqeedah and not fiqh. In Islam, especially in our Madhab, it is Haram to blindly follow someone, whether he is a Faqih or any other person on matters related to Aqeedah since the person must convince them self on these issues(for example Tawheed, prophethood, Jannah, hellfire ect) and derive their belief on them via their Aql and reasoning using the evidence for those doctrines that are available him. This is not an issue related to Fiqh where one is unable to derive a conclusion on a specific everyday matter related to his life and can't decide whether it is Halal or Haram, hence must refer to a Faqih who is an expert on this field to get an answer. This is what those respected 'Ulama mentioned above stated in the beginning of their Risalah and their position is based on numerous Ahadith where the A'mimahع criticized blind following someone on all matters related to the religion. With that said, if Sayed Sistani حbeliefs in the permissibility of reciting "Ya Ali Madad", it does not mean that his follower is obliged to follow him on it as he is obliged to follow him on issues related to Fiqh that is related to his everyday life and cannot solve by himself, especially if he is not convinced on it or the conclusions used to derive it.

 

Actually you are completely wrong. This question is in the guidelines of fiq -> Shirk / Tawheed therefore this answer that Sistani has given is in regards to whether or not those who take them as their marja are allowed to say it or not.

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Shirk and Tawheed are not matters of Fiqh. They are related to Aqeedah and this Du'a falls within it.

 

But brother do you not understand if something is shirk it means WE CANNOT DO IT. It falls under the HARAM. If something is HARAM, then it falls under permissibility. Therefore Sistani's derivation to this permissibility is valid upon all his followers. His fatwa regarding "Ya Ali Madad" implies it is no where near shirk.

Edited by PureEthics

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Its another thing to say that we researched books written[Maraja Taqleed have books on topics]  or lectures given by few jurist, learned scholars and we looked at Tafsir, and their explanation of the verses and we came to this conclusion [faith]based on Quranic, in Light of Hadith[varified by them], rational and logical argument presented by the different Learned Scholars.[in terms of Faith].

 

We may act on opinions in other issues, or instructions as they are the most learned among us etc..

 

But Legal binding Authority, scope of Jurist[Jurisprudence] as the name indicates/as the scope is defined by the Jursits[below]- is in legal Issues[Only],

 

Taqlid:

 

“1. It is necessary for a Muslim to believe in the fundamentals of faith on the basis of proof and he cannot follow anyone in this respect i.e. he cannot accept the word of another with regard to the fundamentals without demanding proof.

 

However, in order to act on Islamic code (except in those matters which are considered by all to be indisputable e.g. the obligatory nature of the five daily prayers, fasting during the holy month of Ramadan etc.) a person must adopt one of the following methods..."

 

http://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/taqlid#following-mujtahid

 

Layman

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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I think if you constantly receive help from Imams and you know you do, it's ok to ask their help in the spiritual journey. That means you are blessed, and God has given permission to the Imams to help you in your journey.

 

But if you are unaware to whether you do receive their help or not, you should ask God to make you ready to receive their help and give permission for the Imams to help you.

 

Otherwise, the type of help you should seek is only that they pray for you.

 

If you want their guidance and spiritual help, you have to beseech Allah, and once you begin to receive it, and you are in relationship with Ahlelbayt, it becomes ok to ask their help, because God has given them permission to help you and guide you.

 

I'm not sure about this, but I feel this is the correct approach.

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Do you believe Imaam Ali (a.s) can help you independantly without God?

 

If they believe it is the Imams a.s who hear dua, decide to grant it to you themselves , that is shirk. If they believe Allah swt has given them the power to intercede and it is only by Allah swt's ultimate approval that a dua is granted, as per the fatwah it is not shirk. in my own view.

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Calling Imam Ali for help is permitted. The Grand Ayatullah Sheikh Bashir Hussain Najfi also issued fatwa for its permission:

 

http://www.alnajafi.org/questions-and-answers/41-aqeedah/55-question-on-ya-ali-madad.html

 

Regards.

 

 

Question: Is it right to say ya Ali madad?

 

Answer: There is no objection in it.
 

 

 

 

Peace be on you both.

 

If you believe it is the Imam a.s who hears the dua, and then grants it, you are comitting shirk - even if you believe Allah swt gave power to an Imam to delagate risq, hear and answer dua independent of him. It's shirk. 

 

If you believe Allah swt permits the Imam a.s to hear your request, and then allows the Imam a.s to intercede or pray for you , with the knowlege only Allah swt makes the final decision whether or not to grant you , and it is only through his power you are granted (so the Imam is effectively, more symbolic anyway) according to the fatwah that is permisible.

 

Call Allah swt by his beautiful names , and never forget he is closer to you than your jugular vein. 

Edited by Tawheed313

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Peace be on you both.

 

If you believe Allah swt permits the Imam a.s to hear your request, and then allows the Imam a.s to intercede or pray for you , with the knowlege only Allah swt makes the final decision whether or not to grant you , and it is only through his power you are granted (so the Imam is effectively, more symbolic anyway) according to the fatwah that is permisible.

 

Call Allah swt by his beautiful names , and never forget he is closer to you than your jugular vein. 

 

Thanks for response.

 

Al-hamdullilah i am very firm with my believes and certainly i know what the fatwas do mean.

 

I also clarify that this is a matter of Waseela or intercession and it has nothing to do with any kind of shirk. And al-hamdullilah I have the understanding of the spiritual leadership and authority of Imams from Ahl-alabayt  as  who are the best of creations by the best of Creators and chosen by Allah swt.  

 

I certainly have no misconception in interpreting and acting upon according to the fatwas and i do not need any Ayat-ullah to intervene further. 

 

Regards.

Edited by skamran110

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I think if you constantly receive help from Imams and you know you do, it's ok to ask their help in the spiritual journey. That means you are blessed, and God has given permission to the Imams to help you in your journey.

But if you are unaware to whether you do receive their help or not, you should ask God to make you ready to receive their help and give permission for the Imams to help you.

Otherwise, the type of help you should seek is only that they pray for you.

If you want their guidance and spiritual help, you have to beseech Allah, and once you begin to receive it, and you are in relationship with Ahlelbayt, it becomes ok to ask their help, because God has given them permission to help you and guide you.

I'm not sure about this, but I feel this is the correct approach.

Lol I asked Imam Hussain, Ali, Fatima to ask Allah to let me succeed one time and it was granted.

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This is the conclusion that i have come to after studying the matter for a long time:

Two types  of tawassul is valid in islam

1. Offering your prayer to Allah and adding O God please grant my wishes for the sake of ...... (such ans such virtious person)

2.At the grave of a virtious person asking him/her to pray on your behalf to Allah to grant your wishes.This MUST be done WITHOUT raising your hands as if you were praying.

2a.If the virtious person you want to pray to Allah on your behalf , you should ask him to pray on your behalf to Allah in his presence.Again without raising your hands.

Best regards

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3 hours ago, Purged said:

what about asking the 12th Imam (atf) to pray for you? 

The imams are our guides pointing us to Allah, so it's best to pray/ dua directly to Allah, having said that Since Imam Mahdi is alive, and is called Wali Amr/ holder of commands which descend upon him every laylatul qadr, using him as a purer vessel than you for your prayers to be granted is permissible. ( refer to al kafi for detail explanation )

The rest of the Imams are retired from their positions and each imam hands over the imamat to the proceeding imam who receives the commands from Allah.

So praying at the shrines of any other imam has no benefit, as they are no more responsible for implementing the command of Allah, and you have to refer to the present Imam who has been given the commands.

But best is Allah directly as brother Tawheed mentioned as Allah is closer than our jugular vain.

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23 minutes ago, certainclarity said:

Allah is closer than our jugular vain.

Do you know, what will happen, if people really believe this version/explanation/interpretation of the Verse? 

Here is a hint.

If god is closer to my jugular vain

why do I have to (fill in the blanks) ---------        -------------     -------------      ------------    ----------  (till infinity)

Also,

please shed some light on 

وَقَالَ رَبُّكُمُ ادْعُونِي أَسْتَجِبْ لَكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ عَنْ عِبَادَتِي سَيَدْخُلُونَ جَهَنَّمَ دَاخِرِينَ {60}

[Shakir 40:60] And your Lord says: Call upon Me, I will answer you; surely those who are too proud for My service shall soon enter hell abased.
[Pickthal 40:60] And your Lord hath said: Pray unto Me and I will hear your prayer. Lo! those who scorn My service, they will enter hell, disgraced.
[Yusufali 40:60] And your Lord says: "Call on Me; I will answer your (Prayer): but those who are too arrogant to serve Me will surely find themselves in Hell - in humiliation!"

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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26 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Do you know, what will happen, if people really believe this version/explanation/interpretation of the Verse? 

Here is a hint.

If god is closer to my jugular vain

why do I have to (fill in the blanks) ---------        -------------     -------------      ------------    ----------  (till infinity)

Also,

please shed some light on 

وَقَالَ رَبُّكُمُ ادْعُونِي أَسْتَجِبْ لَكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ عَنْ عِبَادَتِي سَيَدْخُلُونَ جَهَنَّمَ دَاخِرِينَ {60}

[Shakir 40:60] And your Lord says: Call upon Me, I will answer you; surely those who are too proud for My service shall soon enter hell abased.
[Pickthal 40:60] And your Lord hath said: Pray unto Me and I will hear your prayer. Lo! those who scorn My service, they will enter hell, disgraced.
[Yusufali 40:60] And your Lord says: "Call on Me; I will answer your (Prayer): but those who are too arrogant to serve Me will surely find themselves in Hell - in humiliation!"

I don't get your point.

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6 hours ago, certainclarity said:

as Allah is closer than our jugular vain.

وَلَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا الْإِنْسَانَ وَنَعْلَمُ مَا تُوَسْوِسُ بِهِ نَفْسُهُ ۖ وَنَحْنُ أَقْرَبُ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ حَبْلِ الْوَرِيدِ {16}

[Shakir 50:16] And certainly We created man, and We know what his mind suggests to him, and We are nearer to him than his life-vein.
[Pickthal 50:16] We verily created man and We know what his soul whispereth to him, and We are nearer to him than his jugular vein.
[Yusufali 50:16] It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 50:16]

Allah created man, so by virtue of His being the creator, He is aware of man's inherent weaknesses. He gave man intellect, consciousness and free-will. The phrase "nearer than the jugular vein" implies that Allah knows, more truly, the innermost state of man's feelings and consciousness, than does his own self.

In view of His nearness to the soul of man, announced in this verse, if a man makes efforts to bring his intellect, spiritual functions of the soul and strength of character in harmony with the will of the Lord, he can absorb the divine attributes and rise above other human beings in order to let his will dominate over matter. The man of God is such an individual whose will manifests wonders to astonish the world.

http://quran.al-islam.org/

*****

Above has nothing to do with Dua/Tawassul. Its a fact that Creator knows his creation better than the creation itself, can ever possibly know. 

Allah(awj) knew what was Iblis inner issue, but it had to be exposed. Actionable command is required to expose the inner nifaq. 

Qur'an 

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ رَسُولٍ إِلَّا لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا {64}

[Shakir 4:64] And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.


[Pickthal 4:64] We sent no messenger save that he should be obeyed by Allah's leave. And if, when they had wronged themselves, they had but come unto thee and asked forgiveness of Allah, and asked forgiveness of the messenger, they would have found Allah Forgiving, Merciful.


[Yusufali 4:64] We sent not a messenger, but to be obeyed, in accordance with the will of Allah. If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

*****

How do you explain the nearness and Qur'an 4:64. 

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26 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

وَلَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا الْإِنْسَانَ وَنَعْلَمُ مَا تُوَسْوِسُ بِهِ نَفْسُهُ ۖ وَنَحْنُ أَقْرَبُ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ حَبْلِ الْوَرِيدِ {16}

[Shakir 50:16] And certainly We created man, and We know what his mind suggests to him, and We are nearer to him than his life-vein.
[Pickthal 50:16] We verily created man and We know what his soul whispereth to him, and We are nearer to him than his jugular vein.
[Yusufali 50:16] It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 50:16]

Allah created man, so by virtue of His being the creator, He is aware of man's inherent weaknesses. He gave man intellect, consciousness and free-will. The phrase "nearer than the jugular vein" implies that Allah knows, more truly, the innermost state of man's feelings and consciousness, than does his own self.

In view of His nearness to the soul of man, announced in this verse, if a man makes efforts to bring his intellect, spiritual functions of the soul and strength of character in harmony with the will of the Lord, he can absorb the divine attributes and rise above other human beings in order to let his will dominate over matter. The man of God is such an individual whose will manifests wonders to astonish the world.

http://quran.al-islam.org/

*****

Above has nothing to do with Dua/Tawassul. Its a fact that Creator knows his creation better than the creation itself, can ever possibly know. 

Allah(awj) knew what was Iblis inner issue, but it had to be exposed. Actionable command is required to expose the inner nifaq. 

Qur'an 

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ رَسُولٍ إِلَّا لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا {64}

[Shakir 4:64] And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.


[Pickthal 4:64] We sent no messenger save that he should be obeyed by Allah's leave. And if, when they had wronged themselves, they had but come unto thee and asked forgiveness of Allah, and asked forgiveness of the messenger, they would have found Allah Forgiving, Merciful.


[Yusufali 4:64] We sent not a messenger, but to be obeyed, in accordance with the will of Allah. If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

*****

How do you explain the nearness and Qur'an 4:64. 

There is nothing what you mentioned , I don't agree on.

Closer than jugular vein is as you mentioned .

Allah's closeness is as such he is al khabeer and al lateef and is aware and expert of everything , but there is even more to it then that, as in the term Haabl al wareed, the word Haabl is used , which means rope, and the similar term Haabl is used in another aya , Haabl ( Rope ) of Allah.

But that is not to be discussed here as that is too long, and goes back to our original creation which was thru the direct Amr ( command of Allah) 

Verse 4:64 implies on the people who were living during the time of the prophet. So the command of Allah is in the prophets hands, so asking thru him was permissible. 

When he passed away the commands came to Imam Ali, so people of his time could seek thru him, and after the martyrdom Imam Ali it was imam Hassan then Imam Hussain who had the Amr and command at hand that comes down every Leylatul qadr.

So, if you ask it should thru your present Imam who has the responsibility and commands of the people of his time.

So both is possible, asking directly as mentioned in some ayas and  asking thru someone who is currently responsible for them thru the commands of Allah they receive every Leylatul qadr.

But not those who are not incharge any more, and have handed over the imamat to the next Succesor. 

Having said that our fitrat, true nature is fitrat Allah, and even a kafir who does not even know who is imam is, when in the middle of the ocean is in crisis, realizes there is only one power to help him, and he calls on to Allah sincerely and Allah helps him.

So he goes back to the source in an instant, even if he dismisses it later when he is saved by Allah, and brought to shore.

 

Edited by certainclarity

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48 minutes ago, certainclarity said:

 

So both is possible, asking directly as mentioned in some ayas and  asking thru someone who is currently responsible for them thru the commands of Allah they receive every Leylatul qadr.

 

You are hitting on some other deeper issues,that will derail the main issue. Not going to comment on it.

However, Allah(awj) did not give two messages. It will mean the Creator, who knows HIS creation, by design created confusion. 

No there no two different concepts to confuse people, That defeats the purpose of guidance. (Qur'an 3:7) You are asking from Allah(awj)[The Ultimate, Divine Source], in both ways you outline. Its a matter of wording /technicalities and perception. Allah(awj) never asked Iblis to recognize HIM, He had to understand the way he was commanded to do. As you said, even an non believer, by nature(fitra) recognizes the Creator/High power. But what good is it? Just to recognize has no real meaning, People may have outwardly recognized the Prophet (Qur'an Surah 63), words have no meaning, Action dictates the True understanding. 

 

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On 1/20/2015 at 3:49 AM, uponthesunnah said:

If they believe it is the Imams a.s who hear dua, decide to grant it to you themselves , that is shirk. If they believe Allah swt has given them the power to intercede and it is only by Allah swt's ultimate approval that a dua is granted, as per the fatwah it is not shirk.

The infallible Imams (a.s) have the power, with the permission of God, to hear our voice everywhere. Especially the Imam of Time (atf) become aware of all our deeds and actions with God’s permission. Thus, wherever we call them, they hear us with the permission of God.

There are traditions in Shia sources according to which the Imams know about the majalis (gatherings) which Shiites hold and they somehow attend them. And if the Shiites pray and recite any dua, they say Aameen and they pray for their followers.

It should be noted that since we are living in the material world with very limited intellectual capacity, understanding such things is difficult. Our intellect does not perceive as to how the Imams hear our voice, but if the material curtain goes away, everything becomes clear.

For example, think about the Holy Prophet’s Me’raj (ascension) to heavens.  He went to Masjidul Aqsa and then up to the seven heavens and came down to earth and visited different places on his way back. He met different prophets and talked with them. Some say that all this had happened in just one minute. This is difficult for us to understand but everything happens with God’s permission and if He wills, the Imams can also do things that are beyond perception.

Also, think of the angel of death. At the same time and moment, how does this angel take people’s lives at different places of the world? All this happens with the permission of God. 

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