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In the Name of God بسم الله

Are We Allowed To Kill?

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Brothers & Sisters,

With the recent event that happened in France, the world's now focus on Islam. In my Facebook, Whatsapp, Path, etc. i'm seeing increasing broadcast activity stating that we're allow to kill someone who slander/ humiliate Rasulullah (pbuhahp). Some quoting a hadith, some quoting ayah from Al-Qur'an. Although, my logical argument would be," if the ummah are allowed to kill whoever humiliate Rasulullah (pbuhahp), then, 1/2 to 3/4 of Mecca's citizen would be killed during Rasulullah (pbuhahp) era".

Anyway, could someone help me with "on what condition that we're allowed to kill?". So far, all i know:

  1. Self-Defense. or some might say defensive Jihad.
  2. Offensive Jihad. When the Imam (as) calls. 
  3. Zina. Although there are steps to be taken, and usually the authority who executes.
  4. Murder. Although there are steps to be taken, and usually the authority who executes.

Are there any more conditions that we're allowed to kill?

(wasalam)

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As a Muslim, I ask us all, did Muhammad A.S kill those who insulted him and hurt him during the beginning of his prophethood? No. Did Muhammad A.S not forgive the meccans who waged wars upon the minor

(salam)   Brother, there are examples in the Seerah of Rasoolillah where those who slandered him were commanded to be executed. Sure, the Prophet often illustrated forgiveness, leniancy and mercy in

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if it allowed prophet must killed many people that harm him ! Only people that fight with islam must been killed , Like American and israeal soldier's ,

If one person blame prophet we not allowed to kill it but if someone flout prophet and this because of her/him satanism we allowed , like salman roshdi !

But I have a simple question , why when American soldier's killed a million blameless people in afghanistan and iraq  , anyone in eroupe and US didn't say "why ???"  why for dozen they deafen world ?

daesh is bairn  of france , america and israeal why they don't blame themselves ?

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how can you forgot the riwayat in which Muhammed(s) ordered a person to kill who insulted prophet and then went to masjid for praying, Muhammed s said this person must have been killed, he first sent abu bakar he returned saying he is praying, then umar and then usman went, latter on ALI was sent to do the job but unfortunately he had left the mosque, it shows if ALI would have found that person he would kill him even if he was praying.

 

ask your scholars to find this riwayat in your books.


there is no ISLAM without MUHAMMED(S) and if some one is insulting Muhammed(s) he is insulting ISLAM/QURAN and Allah.


And he becomes wajib ul Qatl


today they make cartoons, tomorrow they might make movie and muslims will allow this?

Edited by ShiaHashmi
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how can you forgot the riwayat in which Muhammed(s) ordered a person to kill who insulted prophet and then went to masjid for praying, Muhammed s said this person must have been killed, he first sent abu bakar he returned saying he is praying, then umar and then usman went, latter on ALI was sent to do the job but unfortunately he had left the mosque, it shows if ALI would have found that person he would kill him even if he was praying.

 

ask your scholars to find this riwayat in your books.

there is no ISLAM without MUHAMMED(S) and if some one is insulting Muhammed(s) he is insulting ISLAM/QURAN and Allah.

And he becomes wajib ul Qatl

today they make cartoons, tomorrow they might make movie and muslims will allow this?

 

Again, I am not a sunni like yourself, so I do not believe in such forged traditions that go against the Quran. If Muhammad A.S himself did not kill anyone that insulted him, neither will I. You can continue on with your barbaric ideology. You dont seem to understand, instead of making people hate and despise Islam, make them love and understand it, by proving to them how Allah is so loving and merciful, and what a great Prophet Muhammad A.S was. That way, no matter what childish insult or lie they make against the prophet A.S, it would be dismissed because what they will remember and understand is the love of mercy of Muhammad A.S. How do you think Muhammad A.S changed the meccans by violence and force or by his mannerism, to the point they never heard a lie from him and trusted him.

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again a stupid post, I am very much shia but I am not a ______** one like you.

 

If Ali is abused all shia will jump upon to send lanat on khulafah but if Muhammed(s) is abused every one wants peace and let go the culprit?

 

if this is what a shia ideology is then I am more sunni who will fight for honor of prophet(s) then a hypocrite shia.

Edited by Ali Musaaa :)
No name calling. Please address each other politely and with adaab.
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yes it is well allowed if we clearly have proof that some one has openly insult and defame prophet of ISLAM Muhammed(s).

and I think all islamic scholars should stop being pet dog of west and accept this in public.

You just called all Ulema a pet dog of the west.

 

Are you assuming you are more learned than the Marja in Fiqh?

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This is a judgement that must be handed down by an Islamic court in an Islamic society. It would be chaos if everyone was to go around enforcing their own personal opinion of justice, whether Muslim or non-Muslim.

Self defense and defense of a helpless person might be an exception, since an immediate response would be needed. Force should be only as required, not to the point where the oppressed becomes the oppressor or the defender becomes a vigilante.

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today I was reading an article in bbc Urdu by Akar Patel, "don't make fun of religion" in Urdu, it was mazhab ka mazaq kabhi na udain the author was surprised and I am as well. when he found out that Charlie Hebdo had fired a journalist just for writing against jews. knowing that Charlie Hebdo was so much interested in attacking Islam. That shows that even Charlie Hebdo is and was not sure about freedom of speech. it was ok to write against islam, but it was not ok right to against Jews. 
 

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Appreciating the time and energy you put into your forum and in depth information you provide. It's good to come across a forum every once in a while that isn't the same unwanted rehashed information. Excellent read! I've saved your site and I'm adding your RSS feeds to my Google account. Sebron

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On 1/12/2015 at 5:58 AM, Ali Musaaa :) said:

(salam)

Brother, there are examples in the Seerah of Rasoolillah SA where those who slandered him were commanded to be executed. Sure, the Prophet SA often illustrated forgiveness, leniancy and mercy in many cases, but let's not ignore the fact that he was stern against wrong-doers for the sake of Allah SWT as well. This was a important quality of justice that the Messenger had. As Muslims we can't pick and choose which parts of the Seerah we like and push to the side or ignore what we may find as unpalatable (not saying this is what you are doing or anyone else for that matter, but rather am highlighting something we all do/can possibily fall into). 

According to Seyyid al-Khoei there is ijma (consensus) on this. The crime of abusing the Prophet SA is worthy of death. 

Brother let me ask you, rationally, how is it to kill someone for insulting you? Please explain this to me. Where did you derive such a definition from? The Quran? Clearly not, when someone like Firaun L.A (The Pharaoh), who was a mass murder and genocidal killer who called himself God, what was the first thing Allah SWT commanded Moses A.S to do? Go and kill him? Lets read,

[shakir 20:42] Go you and your brother with My communications and be not remiss in remembering Me;

[shakir 20:43] Go both to Firon, surely he has become inordinate;

[shakir 20:44] Then speak to him a gentle word haply he may mind or fear.

Not only that, but how many prophets of God were sent to be ridiculed, mocked, called sorcerers, and abused? Did they go around kill the people? Is this what the quran shows us? Absolutely not! I mean sure there are hadiths even in Shia literature, that even maybe authentic, but that does not excuse them from being false, because we have a system and that is, anything that goes against the quran is to thrown in the garbage. The quran is absolutely clear on this matter. It shows no such evidence to killing a man for disrespecting your religion. Muhammad A.S who came to perfect mankind morals, who came to show us what is true patience, would kill a man for mocking him, for example? Absolutely absurd! It goes against his very essence. He was sent as a mercy to mankind, remember that.

Sayed Khoei may Allah SWT bless his soul, is gone from this world, his fatwas are void. I think many people here abuse and misuse our scholars from the past, misquoting them. I think there was more to what he said then just someone being worthy to be killed. Maybe he made a mistake? After all these scholars were fallible. When you see terrorists doing more damage to Islam then some cartoon drawing you come to realize what is a reality and what is not. Lets not give more excuses to bigots and hatred instilled beings.

(wasalam)

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(salam)

 

Brother, there are examples in the Seerah of Rasoolillah where those who slandered him were commanded to be executed. Sure, the Prophet often illustrated forgiveness, leniancy and mercy in many cases, but let's not ignore the fact that he was stern against wrong-doers for the sake of Allah as well. This was a important quality of justice that the Messenger had. As Muslims we can't pick and choose which parts of the Seerah we like and push to the side or ignore what we may find as unpalatable (not saying this is what you are doing or anyone else for that matter, but rather am highlighting something we all do/can possibily fall into). 

 

According to Seyyid al-Khoei there is ijma (consensus) on this. The crime of abusing the Prophet is worthy of death. 

Alhamdulliah, all trace of kafir belief(human rights, freedom of conscience, other man-made ideologies) has left your heart. 

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Jebreil,

 

Do you have a hypothetical solution for the dispute people seem to have on this topic?

 

Rather, does anyone have a solution?  Sitting around saying, oh this is true, oh no its not, yes it is read this, no no, read that, wait, lets just not judge it at all...

 

All of this appears to have been going on for hundreds of years, or perhaps even thousands.  Where is the solution? Surely we cant just sit around waiting for the return of Jesus or the Mahdi or whomever people believe or do not believe in.  For all any of us knows, this wait could go on for countless millennia to come.

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Jebreil, isn't it true that we live under a treaty when we're citizens of another country? (oath of allegiance, etc). Sunni scholars always bring this fact up when reprimanding their fellow sunnis for taking things into their own hands. Im sure the same is true for Shia islam...

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Brother let me ask you, rationally, how is it just to kill someone for insulting you? Please explain this to me. Where did you derive such a definition from? The Quran? Clearly not, when someone like Firaun L.A (The Pharaoh), who was a mass murder and genocidal killer who called himself God, what was the first thing Allah commanded Moses A.S to do? Go and kill him? Lets read,

[shakir 20:42] Go you and your brother with My communications and be not remiss in remembering Me;

[shakir 20:43] Go both to Firon, surely he has become inordinate;

[shakir 20:44] Then speak to him a gentle word haply he may mind or fear.

Not only that, but how many prophets of God were sent to be ridiculed, mocked, called sorcerers, and abused? Did they go around kill the people? Is this what the quran shows us? Absolutely not! I mean sure there are hadiths even in Shia literature, that even maybe authentic, but that does not excuse them from being false, because we have a system and that is, anything that goes against the quran is to thrown in the garbage. The quran is absolutely clear on this matter. It shows no such evidence to killing a man for disrespecting your religion. Muhammad A.S who came to perfect mankind morals, who came to show us what is true patience, would kill a man for mocking him, for example? Absolutely absurd! It goes against his very essence. He was sent as a mercy to mankind, remember that.

Sayed Khoei may Allah bless his soul, is gone from this world, his fatwas are void. I think many people here abuse and misuse our scholars from the past, misquoting them. I think there was more to what he said then just someone being worthy to be killed. Maybe he made a mistake? After all these scholars were fallible. When you see terrorists doing more damage to Islam then some cartoon drawing you come to realize what is a reality and what is not. Lets not give more excuses to bigots and hatred instilled beings.

(wasalam)

بِسْم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم brother

False Qiyas is what your using here to derive your own subjective ruling on this matter and this is Haram in Islam. This is further stressed by the fact that we have a plethora of narrations where the Ma'sum عليه السلام clearly and explicitly states that any person who is Baligh, has a sound intellect and intentionally insults the prophet, his Ahlulbayt without resorting to repentance or seeking the truth when it is brought forth to them and they reject it out of their arrogance, then their state is to be killed. Moreover, our scholars hold an Ijma'(scholarly consensus) on this issue, hence the position of Sayed Al-Khui remains standing firmly and not necessarily void. As for our current Ulama, here for example, is what his eminence Sayed Ali Al-Sistani has to say on this issue.

This fatwa of his is taken directly from his website and it's a continuation of a previous question that was asked about the state who jokingly hesitate about Islam, prophet, Ahlulbayt and Allah but do not actually mean it. For that one his eminence states that they are extremely wrong but not to be killed since they don't really mean what they say. As for those who intentionally hesitate and attack the honour of the prophet, he answered as shown below:

Sistani(Various Fatwas):

ولو كانوا جادّين قاصدين في سبهم لله عزّ وجلّ، أو للنبي صلى الله عليه وآله، أو للائمّة عليهم السلام، أو للدين، أو للمذهب، وقاصدين ذلك باِصرار منهم عليه؟

ــ حكمهم القتل

Question: ...If they are serious and intentionally insulting Allah, or the prophet, or the Imams, or the religion or the Madhab, what is their state?

Answer: They are to be killed

Source: http://www.sistani.org/arabic/book/19/1049/ (bottom of the page)

And here are various narrations from Wasa'il Al-Shi'a where the Ma'sum عليه السلام explicitly confirms the above.

http://alkafeel.net/islamiclibrary/hadith/wasael-28/wasael-28/v11.html

Moreover, Islam does not restrictively mean peace and this can become misleading to say otherwise as that is only partially correct. But rather, linguistically it means submission and the very essence of Islam is to submit to Allah(swt). For example:

"Our Lord! and make us both (MUSLIMEEN)submissive to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful."[Al-Baqarah-128-SHAKIR]

Meaning, when it becomes explicitly clear what orders we are given by Him to follow via the prophet and A'immah, then we obey just as the Angels obeyed Him when he ordered them to prostrate to Adam. Therefore, when there is clear evidence where the prophet and Imams عليهم السلام explicitly tell us that those who insult them and Allah are to be killed, then we accept their judgment unconditionally. Hence, no point in trying to "rationalize" of what should be deemed logical or illogical using our fallible and deficient intellects when the wisdom for these judgments is with Allah سبحانه وتعلى.

As for the prophetص , after the conquest of Mecca, who ever became Muslim from the Mushrikeen of Mecca that used to insult him before his migration to Medina, then he forgave them and forbade their blood based on their apparent display of Islam(for example the Tulaqaa like Abu Sufyan and Mua'wiyia). For those who used to insult him like the poets and refused to become Muslim due to their arrogance even when given the chance to be brought to the truth, they were all beheaded.

وعليكم السلام

(bismillah)

(salam)

Jahangiram

This is from Sayyed al-Sistani's A Code of Practice for Muslims in the West:

242. Question: Is it necessary for the person who has got a visa to enter a non-Muslim country to abide by the laws of that country in all fields, like traffic laws, laws regarding work and employment, etc.?

Answer: If he has given an undertaking—even if indirectly [as is implied in the immigration documents]— to abide by the laws of that country, it is necessary for him to fulfill his commitment in issues that are not contrary to the sacred laws [of Islam].

243. As for example, it is necessary to obey traffic regulations regardless [of the fact whether you have given a commitment or not], if not obeying those rules could eventually lead to harming people’s lives and properties which are sacrosanct [in Islamic laws].

Here is the link: http://www.al-islam.org/a-code-of-practice-for-muslims-in-the-west-ayatullah-sistani/dealing-laws-non-muslim-countries#introduction

The book is interesting.

(wasalam)

السلام عليكم

This is rather ambiguous. Laws that don't neccessarly and directly attack Islam, especially those that are essential to keep order in a society are to be followed. However, does that include laws that propagate hate speech against Muslims, attack their honour and beliefs and are not as essential in a western society say as traffic laws, court laws ect?

Edited by Al-Najashi
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بِسْم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم brother

False Qiyas is what your using here to derive your own subjective ruling on this matter and this is Haram in Islam. This is further stressed by the fact that we have a plethora of narrations where the Ma'sum عليه السلام clearly and explicitly states that any person who is Baligh, has a sound intellect and intentionally insults the prophet, his Ahlulbayt without resorting to repentance or seeking the truth when it is brought forth to them and they reject it out of their arrogance, then their state is to be killed. Moreover, our scholars hold an Ijma'(scholarly consensus) on this issue, hence the position of Sayed Al-Khui remains standing firmly and not necessarily void. As for our current Ulama, here for example, is what his eminence Sayed Ali Al-Sistani has to say on this issue.

 

False Qiyas? Subjective? What is qiyas and subjective about not unjustly killing someone over an insult? Explain to me how is that just? How is it not CONTRADICTORY to the quran? What is subjective about not killing someone for seriously joking about Islam, from the holy quran? The holy quran from cover to cover does not, in a single instance, promote or even come close to promoting such a law. Just because there is an "ijma" does not necessitate obedience, another mujtahid can disagree.

 

 

This fatwa of his is taken directly from his website and it's a continuation of a previous question that was asked about the state who jokingly hesitate about Islam, prophet, Ahlulbayt and Allah but do not actually mean it. For that one his eminence states that they are extremely wrong but not to be killed since they don't really mean what they say. As for those who intentionally hesitate and attack the honour of the prophet, he answered as shown below:

 

Again, where does it say who is suppose to carry out the killing? Or how is it proved? Or when is it permissible to do so? During the time of the Imams? In anyone's land? Anyone can make a lie against another and claim that one insulted the honor of the prophet. Do you go around killing people and it becomes "justified"? This notion is irrational. In fact you are mistakenly comprehending fatwas.

 

 

Moreover, Islam does not restrictively mean peace and this can become misleading to say otherwise as that is only partially correct. But rather, linguistically it means submission and the very essence of Islam is to submit to Allah(swt). For example:

 

But AGAIN... Islam means peace though.

 

 

Meaning, when it becomes explicitly clear what orders we are given by Him to follow via the prophet and A'immah, then we obey just as the Angels obeyed Him when he ordered them to prostrate to Adam.

 

The only time it "becomes" explicitly clear is when the Imam A.S speaks to you directly, otherwise all this hadith talk and blind obedience is simply subjective to personal interpretation and how one sees history and authenticates it. I dont reject Hadiths, I reject your myopic understanding of hadiths.

 

 

As for the prophetص , after the conquest of Mecca, who ever became Muslim from the Mushrikeen of Mecca that used to insult him before his migration to Medina, then he forgave them and forbade their blood based on their apparent display of Islam(for example the Tulaqaa like Abu Sufyan and Mua'wiyia). For those who used to insult him like the poets and refused to become Muslim due to their arrogance even when given the chance to be brought to the truth, they were all beheaded.

 

So he forgave the likes of Maqiya and Abu Sufyan L.A who killed his own family, yet supposedly killed poets and such who rightfully rejected Islam? Even though the Quran does not force you to become Muslim? Sounds like false history to me.

 

 

Therefore, when there is clear evidence where the prophet and Imams عليهم السلام explicitly tell us that those who insult them and Allah are to be killed, then we accept their judgment unconditionally. Hence, no point in trying to "rationalize" of what should be deemed logical or illogical using our fallible and deficient intellects when the wisdom for these judgments is with Allah سبحانه وتعلى.

 

This is what I call blind following. The exact reason why crazies do what they do in the name of Islam. The exact reason why Shias get killed by the dozens daily. The same incompetent and ignorant minds who "submit" to God all in the name of God, because God says so. You remind me of the christians who claim questioning Jesus A.S means disbelief. Please tell me what is irrational about what I am saying.

 

 

And to all people who agree with Mr. Najashi, let me be quite blunt. In the west there is no way what so ever we have not heard directly an insult to Islam and Muhammad A.S, so what have you done? Hmm? Tell me. Did you obey the fatwa? Or did you not submit to God and call the Imam A.S or Prophet A.S a liar since you did not accept the hadith by not following it? Pure Rubbish, Double Standards. It shows you, your own fitra rejects it. Instead of trying to change the subject answer my question. What is just about killing someone over an insult? For someone who is called the Mercy of Mankind, would he do such a thing so contradictory? Islam teaches us to respect the land we are in and their laws. This way the name of God nor Islam stays safe from tarnish.

Edited by PureEthics
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Ok, so here is my question now.

 

if we all were to completely ignore scripture and/or scholars fatwas or laws that scholars create, and to strictly think with our hearts.  If someone were to draw a picture of the Prophet, for example the one just published with the Prophet holding the I am Charlie sign...

 

Do people believe that these people should be killed/beheaded? Strictly thinking with our hearts.

 

Id go even further to ask, would anyone personally want to kill them? strictly speaking from your hearts. Not just whether or not they should die, but if you yourself could personally do it or would want to.

 

 

 

I would certainly hope that everyone here would say...well no, thats kind of sick, why would we murder someone over this? Its not that bad is it? A cartoon?

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PureEthics is arguing for the sake of arguing. He can't accept that we have explicit proof which proves the execution of a blasphemer - his arguements are coming from man-centred viewpoints...

False Qiyas? Subjective? What is qiyas and subjective about not unjustly killing someone over an insult? Explain to me how is that just? How is it not CONTRADICTORY to the quran? What is subjective about not killing someone for seriously joking about Islam, from the holy quran? The holy quran from cover to cover does not, in a single instance, promote or even come close to promoting such a law. Just because there is an "ijma" does not necessitate obedience, another mujtahid can disagree.

 

 

Again, where does it say who is suppose to carry out the killing? Or how is it proved? Or when is it permissible to do so? During the time of the Imams? In anyone's land? Anyone can make a lie against another and claim that one insulted the honor of the prophet. Do you go around killing people and it becomes "justified"? This notion is irrational. In fact you are mistakenly comprehending fatwas.

 

 

But AGAIN... Islam means peace though.

 

 

The only time it "becomes" explicitly clear is when the Imam A.S speaks to you directly, otherwise all this hadith talk and blind obedience is simply subjective to personal interpretation and how one sees history and authenticates it. I dont reject Hadiths, I reject your myopic understanding of hadiths.

 

 

So he forgave the likes of Maqiya and Abu Sufyan L.A who killed his own family, yet supposedly killed poets and such who rightfully rejected Islam? Even though the Quran does not force you to become Muslim? Sounds like false history to me.

 

 

This is what I call blind following. The exact reason why crazies do what they do in the name of Islam. The exact reason why Shias get killed by the dozens daily. The same incompetent and ignorant minds who "submit" to God all in the name of God, because God says so. You remind me of the christians who claim questioning Jesus A.S means disbelief. Please tell me what is irrational about what I am saying.

 

 

And to all people who agree with Mr. Najashi, let me be quite blunt. In the west there is no way what so ever we have not heard directly an insult to Islam and Muhammad A.S, so what have you done? Hmm? Tell me. Did you obey the fatwa? Or did you not submit to God and call the Imam A.S or Prophet A.S a liar since you did not accept the hadith by not following it? Pure Rubbish, Double Standards. It shows you, your own fitra rejects it. Instead of trying to change the subject answer my question. What is just about killing someone over an insult? For someone who is called the Mercy of Mankind, would he do such a thing so contradictory? Islam teaches us to respect the land we are in and their laws. This way the name of God nor Islam stays safe from tarnish.

Just to respond to the ramblings regarding Muaa`wiyah and Abu Sufyaan - they were not executed because they were showing Islaam publically (although they were actually munafiq) - this is why nothing was done to them, because they never did anything that was seen in public which was worthy of execution, in the Prophet's time.

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PureEthics is arguing for the sake of arguing. He can't accept that we have explicit proof which proves the execution of a blasphemer - his arguements are coming from man-centred viewpoints...

Just to respond to the ramblings regarding Muaa`wiyah and Abu Sufyaan - they were not executed because they were showing Islaam publically (although they were actually munafiq) - this is why nothing was done to them, because they never did anything that was seen in public which was worthy of execution, in the Prophet's time.

 

First of all your arguments are from man too, except blindly. Second, instead of making excuses answer my questions. Btw, Abu Sufyan did nothing? Really now? You know who he was right?

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First of all your arguments are from man too, except blindly. Second, instead of making excuses answer my questions. Btw, Abu Sufyan did nothing? Really now? You know who he was right?

What is there to answer? Your mind cannot comprehend the facts that there are laws in Islaam, proven through text. Your arguementsbare emotional, you cannot imagine that such laws exist because they seem unjust in your eyes.

As for Abu Sufyan, he accepted Islaam atleast publically. In his heart he was a munafiq...

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What is there to answer? Your mind cannot comprehend the facts that there are laws in Islaam, proven through text. Your arguementsbare emotional, you cannot imagine that such laws exist because they seem unjust in your eyes.

As for Abu Sufyan, he accepted Islaam atleast publically. In his heart he was a munafiq...

 

So please explain to me so I understand it then. How is it just killing a person because of an insult? Tell me. Im still waiting.

 

Oh and you are failing to realize Abu Sufyan was a KILLER yet he was forgiven but poets who insulted the prophet got killed, "supposedly" by Mr. Najashi's understanding of history.

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So please explain to me so I understand it then. How is it just killing a person because of an insult? Tell me. Im still waiting.

 

Oh and you are failing to realize Abu Sufyan was a KILLER yet he was forgiven but poets who insulted the prophet got killed, "supposedly" by Mr. Najashi's understanding of history.

It is Just because we have hadeeths which proves it, and also scholars agreeing with this, in fact a consensus regarding this.

Abu Sufyan became a Muslim just so he doesn't get killed.

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This is a judgement that must be handed down by an Islamic court in an Islamic society. It would be chaos if everyone was to go around enforcing their own personal opinion of justice, whether Muslim or non-Muslim.

Self defense and defense of a helpless person might be an exception, since an immediate response would be needed. Force should be only as required, not to the point where the oppressed becomes the oppressor or the defender becomes a vigilante.

For those that say death sentences given for published material against the prophet/quran/islam is punishable by death, only in Muslim countries under an Islamic court.

Why then did imam Khomeini give a death sentence to Salman Rushdie and all those affiliated with the publication of 'the satanic verses'

I don't think he was Muslim (or the people affiliated with the publication) nor was he living in a Muslim country.

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It is Just because we have hadeeths which proves it, and also scholars agreeing with this, in fact a consensus regarding this.

Abu Sufyan became a Muslim just so he doesn't get killed.

 

Its just because we have hadiths? Okay, that makes purrrrrfect sense. Just as we blindly believe God is just and merciful right? NO. God proves He is just and merciful through the quran, and that is how we know he is just and merciful. Therefore, your sense of reasoning is absurd and the same level as the christians and sunnis. Also, another important point is that God does not force man to Islam, there is no such law. Therefore, my point stands! A killer who becomes muslim is forgiven but a person who insults you gets killed, oh what a mercy to mankind. What rubbish false history.

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Its just because we have hadiths? Okay, that makes purrrrrfect sense. Just as we blindly believe God is just and merciful right? NO. God proves He is just and merciful through the quran, and that is how we know he is just and merciful. Therefore, your sense of reasoning is absurd and the same level as the christians and sunnis. Also, another important point is that God does not force man to Islam, there is no such law. Therefore, my point stands! A killer who becomes muslim is forgiven but a person who insults you gets killed, oh what a mercy to mankind. What rubbish false history.

Who said God doesn't forgive? We have a narration where God forgives the homosexual, that doesn't mean that the act of Sodomy isn't punishable by death as per Islamic law. You believe it isn't JUST, but that's you, according to Islam it is JUST, we wanna go against th aHaadeeth of Ahlulbayt and the consensus of the scholars, past and present? That's your problem.

A person who insults the Prophet - if he is Muslim - it is like committing apostasy. It's kufr.

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Who said God doesn't forgive? We have a narration where God forgives the homosexual, that doesn't mean that the act of Sodomy isn't punishable by death as per Islamic law. You believe it isn't JUST, but that's you, according to Islam it is JUST, we wanna go against th aHaadeeth of Ahlulbayt and the consensus of the scholars, past and present? That's your problem.

A person who insults the Prophet - if he is Muslim - it is like committing apostasy. It's kufr.

 

You actually bring a very valid point. But this example is all in context with certain conditions and this law is upon muslims. Same with apostasy, its understandable when you fully examine the conditions. However insulting the prophet even while you are a Muslim, and receiving a death penalty isnt just. Disobedience is worse than insult and hypocrisy is above that, yet we never saw the prophet killing for such reasons or God commanding that in the Quran. Your example saying "it is like apostasy" is qiyas therefore invalid. Care to answer the scenario I posted in my reply to Najashi? Since you are all up for such a notion and you live in the west.

 

We have MANY examples of people coming to our Imams A.S without knowing they are the Imams A.S and being cursed and insulted at, yet what did the Imams A.S do? They asked, are you alone in this town? Do you have food and a place to stay? My God, what mercy, and then we see your understanding. It boggles my mind.

 

One day our 4th Imam, Imam Zainul Abiddin (as) was sitting in the company of his followers when a man, who was related to him, approached and began insulting Imam Zainul Abiddin (as). This man's name was al-Hassan Ibn al-Muthanna. Imam Zainul Abiddin (as) ignored the man and when he had left said to his companions:

"You heard what that man said to me, I would like you to come with me to hear my reply to him."

The companions of Imam Zainul Abiddin (as) then said:

"We will come with you, although we wanted you or us to say something (an equal response) to him."

Imam Zainul Abiddin (as) proceeded to the man's home reciting:

"And those who when they commit an indecency or do injustice to their souls remember Allah and ask forgiveness for their faults; and who forgives the faults but Allah, and (who) do not knowingly persist in what they have done." Noble Qur'an (3:135)

His companions hearing this concluded that Imam Zainul Abiddin (as) would say only kind words to the man. Imam Zainul Abiddin (as) reached al-Hassan Ibn al-Muthanna's house and said:

"Tell him this is Zainul Abideen." The man heard this and came out prepared for an encounter. He was sure that Imam Zainul Abiddin (as) came only to revenge his actions. When al-Hassan al-Muthanna appeared. Imam Zainul Abiddin (as) said:

"My Brother! You have come to me and have said something's. If you have said that which truly lies in me, I seek forgiveness from Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì; and if you have accused me of that which I am innocent, I ask Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì to forgive you!"

When the man heard the words of Imam Zainul Abiddin (as) he kissed his forehead and said:

"Indeed I accused you of that which you are innocent of. These words describe me."

 

Imam Muhammad ibn `Ali ibn al-Husayn had the title of Baqir, that is to say ‘One who analyzes’. He was called Baqir al-`Ulum meaning one who analyzes the knowledge. A Christian, in a mockery and ironic way playing on words of Baqir, misinterpreted to Baqara called him, “You are Baqara (cow)!” Without expressing any annoyance or anger, the Imam replied calmly, “No, I am not baqara but I am Baqir.” The Christian said, “You are the son of a lady-cook.” The Imam said in reply, “It was her job, which is not considered an insult or disgrace to her personality.” The Christian said, “Your mother was black, immodest and had an abusive tongue.” The Imam said, “If whatever you attribute to my mother is true, I pray Allah to forgive her and absolve her sins, and if it is a lie, may Allah forgive you for your lies and slander.”

Observing such a clemency from a person who had the authority to submit a non-Muslim to different persecutions was sufficient to provoke a revolution in the soul of the Christian and invite him towards Islam. Later on, he embraced Islam.[1] Al-Manaqib: 207/4.

 

When a Syrian saw him mounted on a horse, he began to abuse him. The Imam observed forbearance and did not react to his abusive language. When the fellow finished ranting to his heart's content the Imam said to him, “O gentleman! If you are in need, we can help you. If you have lost your way we can guide you. If you need a riding animal we can provide you with it. If you are hungry we can serve you food. If you require clothes we can offer them to you. If you are poor we can make you self-sufficient. If you are a visitor we can host you.”

Hearing these statements the Syrian began to weep and said, “Today I confess that you are the rightful caliph of God. I used to harbor great avarice against you and your respected father, now no one is dearer to me than you.

 

There is many more such cases! Read this book and share it to others and then you will understand why I cannot accept such an ideology. Our Prophets and Imams A.S came to perfect mankind's morals.

 

Forbearance of the Holy Imams A.S

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بِسْم الله الرحم الرحيم

Oh and you are failing to realize Abu Sufyan was a KILLER yet he was forgiven but poets who insulted the prophet got killed, "supposedly" by Mr. Najashi's understanding of history.

Mau'awiyia and Abu Sufyan were among the Tulaqaa, that is; those who had no choice but to submit to Islam after the Muslim army defeated them and conquered Mecca. Like most of the Munafiqeen, they used Islam as a cover out of fear that the prophet would not behead them, but in reality, those people were not Mumineen(just as the case with Abdullah Ibn Ubay who displayed Islam, but in reality was a Munafiq in which Surat Al-Munafiqeen was about him). Moreover, had they not outwardly shown their submission to Islam, the prophet ص would had them executed, so they saw Islam as their only alternative to avoid being killed. As for the other enemies of the prophet ص who rejected the call to Islam, the prophet ص ordered them to be killed. Among them were non-combatants who insulted, satirized and reviled the prophet ص when he lived with them under the oppression of the Quraysh in Mecca before his migration to Medina. For example:

Al-Huwaryth bin Nuqayd الحريري بن نقيذ

While living in Mecca before his migration to Medina, the prophet ص was constantly reviled and insulted by Al-Huwaryth bin Nuqayd. After the conquest of Mecca, he refused the call of Islam by the prophet ص and become a Muslim like the Tulaqaa so the prophetص ordered his execution and Imam 'Ali ع beheaded him.

Ka'ab bin Zuhayr كعب بن زهير

He was a poet who made defamatory and insulting poems against the prophet ص. After the conquest, he rejected the call of Islam from the prophet ص , so the prophet ordered his execution. However later, he reconsidered his position and decided to become a Muslim like the rest of the Tulaqaa and as s result the prophet ص forbade his blood.

Hibar bin Al-Aswad هبار بن الأسود

He was among the Mushrikeen of Mecca that staunchly opposed the prophetص. When Zainabر; daughter of the prophet ص migrated from Mecca with other Muslims to reach the prophet ص in Medina, while leaving Mecca, Hibar, taunted Zainabر and pushed her off her camel. As a result of that, after the conquest, the prophet ص ordered for his execution, however, like Abu Sufyan, his son and other Munafiqeen, he decided to become a Muslim so the prophet ص forbade his blood. Had he not became a Muslim, the prophet ص would have had him beheaded for assaulting Zainab and eventually insulting him.

http://www.aqaedalshia.com/alhelli/aqaed/15.htm

http://www.al-shia.org/html/ara/ahl/?mod=sire&id=34

We have MANY examples of people coming to our Imams A.S without knowing they are the Imams A.S and being cursed and insulted at, yet what did the Imams A.S do? They asked, are you alone in this town? Do you have food and a place to stay? My God, what mercy, and then we see your understanding. It boggles my mind.

That's correct. And the punishment cannot be establishment on them for this specific case because they were ignorant of the authority that the A'immahع posssesed, hence the Hujjah has not been established in front of them to be seen as guilty. Once however the truth has reached them after being informed and they deliberately rejected it, (as with the case of these three people mentioned above who the prophet ص ordered for their execution), then their case is different.
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بِسْم الله الرحم الرحيم

Mau'awiyia and Abu Sufyan were among the Tulaqaa, that is; those who had no choice but to submit to Islam after the Muslim army defeated them and conquered Mecca. Like most of the Munafiqeen, they used Islam as a cover out of fear that the prophet would not behead them, but in reality, those people were not Mumineen(just as the case with Abdullah Ibn Ubay who displayed Islam, but in reality was a Munafiq in which Surat Al-Munafiqeen was about him). Moreover, had they not outwardly shown their submission to Islam, the prophet ص would had them executed, so they saw Islam as their only alternative to avoid being killed. As for the other enemies of the prophet ص who rejected the call to Islam, the prophet ص ordered them to be killed. Among them were non-combatants who insulted, satirized and reviled the prophet ص when he lived with them under the oppression of the Quraysh in Mecca before his migration to Medina. For example:

Al-Huwaryth bin Nuqayd الحريري بن نقيذ

While living in Mecca before his migration to Medina, the prophet ص was constantly reviled and insulted by Al-Huwaryth bin Nuqayd. After the conquest of Mecca, he refused the call of Islam by the prophet ص and become a Muslim like the Tulaqaa so the prophetص ordered his execution and Imam 'Ali ع beheaded him.

Ka'ab bin Zuhayr كعب بن زهير

He was a poet who made defamatory and insulting poems against the prophet ص. After the conquest, he rejected the call of Islam from the prophet ص , so the prophet ordered his execution. However later, he reconsidered his position and decided to become a Muslim like the rest of the Tulaqaa and as s result the prophet ص forbade his blood.

Hibar bin Al-Aswad هبار بن الأسود

He was among the Mushrikeen of Mecca that staunchly opposed the prophetص. When Zainabر; daughter of the prophet ص migrated from Mecca with other Muslims to reach the prophet ص in Medina, while leaving Mecca, Hibar, taunted Zainabر and pushed her off her camel. As a result of that, after the conquest, the prophet ص ordered for his execution, however, like Abu Sufyan, his son and other Munafiqeen, he decided to become a Muslim so the prophet ص forbade his blood. Had he not became a Muslim, the prophet ص would have had him beheaded for assaulting Zainab and eventually insulting him.

http://www.aqaedalshia.com/alhelli/aqaed/15.htm

http://www.al-shia.org/html/ara/ahl/?mod=sire&id=34

 

Again was Abu Sufayan not a killer? So how is it the prophet forgave such a man just because he "become" a Muslim and killed others for insulting him? Where is the law that people must submit to Islam after a war? Your first example doesnt make sense, and how authentic are these sources? By whose standards? Who translated it from the arabic? and How accurate is the arabic?

 

he refused the call of Islam by the prophet ص and become a Muslim like the Tulaqaa so the prophetص ordered his execution and Imam 'Ali ع beheaded him.

 

 

So he refused the call of Islam, but then became a Muslim and the prophet killed him even though he became a Muslim? Are you kidding me? Your second example proves my point, if killing someone for insulting the prophet was law, why did he forgive him? Because he became a Muslim he was forgiven even though there is no chance such people truly changed and still hated the prophet? Makes no sense. The last example seems wrong, he wasnt saved because he became Muslim, but because Muhammad A.S accepted his forgivess:

 

As for Habbar Ibn al-Aswad, he was the person who frightened Zainab - the Noble Prophet's (s.a.w) daughter, who had been sent towards Madinah by her husband, Abu al-Abbas Ibn Rabi' - on the way to Madinah as a result of which she suffered a miscarriage. Subsequent to this act of his, the Noble Prophet (s.a.w) had declared it permissible to shed his blood.

After the conquest of Mecca he approached the Noble Prophet (s.a.w), expressed regret over his misdeed and, seeking forgiveness, said: “O' Prophet of Allah! We were of the polytheists, however Allah, by means of you, guided us aright and delivered us from perdition, so disregard my ignorance and that which you have heard about me, and pardon me!”

The Noble Prophet (s.a.w) said: “I pardon you. Allah has exhibited kindness towards you in that He has guided you into Islam; with the acceptance of Islam, bygones become bygones.”10

 

Such a hypocrite like Abu Sufyan is impossible to change, and even though his conversion to Islam was just to save his life, the prophet still knew his intention and did not kill him, yet supposedly he will kill others for insulting him. I find that absurd. Your a killer and a hypocrite who insults the prophet, and you lie and say you are a Muslim, and which the prophet knows it is all a garb, and your life is saved. But someone who insults the prophet still gets killed? That makes sense....

 

 

 

By the way, please answer my scenario asked of you. You know the fatwa, and you have certainly heard direct insults, what did you do?

بِ

That's correct. And the punishment cannot be establishment on them for this specific case because they were ignorant of the authority that the A'immahع posssesed, hence the Hujjah has not been established in front of them to be seen as guilty. Once however the truth has reached them after being informed and they deliberately rejected it, (as with the case of these three people mentioned above who the prophet ص ordered for their execution), then their case is different.

 

Huh? Where does the fatwa state such a condition? And reading the hadiths you will see they were not ignorant. They knew they were Imams and insulted them regardless. Besides, if that is the case, then everyone is unconditionally ignorant, who ever insults the prophet, therefore no such law can be in reality implemented. You can only say anyone who insults our prophet is ignorant, else why insult our prophet. Besides, that is not what your fatwa said.

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