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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why Christians Are Not To Avenge Jesus Christ

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  • Veteran Member

Hello Shiachat

 

I came back after a long absence due to my curiousity over what Shiachat members think concerning the people who killed journalists in Paris. If you could please express your opinion on the incident, I would very much appreciate that.

 

My opinion is based on Jesus Christ. I know many people, especially Atheists of course, mock and insult Jesus Christ. While I'm definitely not perfect and have sometimes reacted verbally in anger to people, I am learning to ask forgiveness and to love people even when they bother me. It is a maturing process, maturing in God's amazing love and grace.

 

Jesus Christ specifically commanded his followers to love their enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37). While I don't consider Atheists or people who mock Jesus Christ to be my enemies, they have rejected Jesus Christ. Does that mean I should kill or insult them? Nope! Jesus Christ has given commands and his very own example on what to do to enemies. Jesus Christ did not kill his enemies, either the Romans who were oppressing his people the Jews or the Jewish people who rejected him. Rather, he forgave them (Luke 23:34).

 

In the same way, the first Christian martyr, a Jewish man whose English name is Stephen, forgave his enemies who stoned him to death (Acts 7:59-60). 

 

So, even when followers of Jesus Christ face death, we are not commanded to even defend ourselves. (American ideology does not follow Jesus Christ's commands and example in regards to self-defense and fighting/occupying other peoples' land.) Now, Jesus Christ did command his apostles to flee persecution:

 

"When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." - Matthew 10:23 (NIV)

 

While many people consider fleeing and nonviolence to be weak, it requires spiritual strength to not seek revenge. It is so easy to lash out against people, and it requires spiritual strength to see the big picture. For example, I am ashamed to say while watching another Vice News video, I was insulting people who were killing and eating dogs, while tears were streaming down my face. I hated those people. It took me falling on my knees before God, asking for forgiveness for hating them, to change me. I am ashamed of hating those people, disobeying Jesus Christ.

 

When I hated those people, I was disobeying Jesus Christ and was actually being spiritually weak. While insulting them, I had imagined being there, insulting them to their faces, but that would been following my own sinful flesh instead of following Jesus Christ. I am glad that I did not insult them to their faces, and i pray that God continues to mature me so that if I am ever there, I can show them God's love and help them with kindness see that what they are doing is not the best thing to do. That takes more courage and spiritual strength than hating and insulting and using violence against people. I am grateful to God that He forgave me for my sins of hating and insulting these people on TV, and is helping me change, transform from wanting revenge to wanting them to know God's amazing grace and love.

 

What do you think?

 

Thanks and God bless you

 

 

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Wait so God tells you to love your enemies but God  Himself doesnt love us enough to rid us of original sin (or blame us of the sins of others) or condemn all non christians to hell? I find that irrat

(bismillah)   Dear Christianlady,   I come from a Christian family and was raised Christian for 16 years of my life and I must say that becoming Muslim has given me the greatest joy someone could ever

Totally agree. Many years ago the traffic situation got so bad in Canadian cities for pedestrians they decided to make new rules. One of these rules was for pedestrians wanting to cross the street wou

  • Veteran Member

God's curse be upon those enemies of the Prophets.

 

Hello Khalillallah,

 

This is one of the hugest differences between Christianity and Islam.

 

Jesus Christ commands his followers to love enemies:

 

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[Leviticus 19:18] and hate your enemy.’But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." - Matthew 43-48

 

Loving enemies includes blessing those who curse, doing good to them, and praying for them:

 

“But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."

- Luke 6:27-36 (NIV)

 

When we are insulted because of Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ says we are blessed with reward in heaven:

 

“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

- Matthew 5:11-12 (NIV)

 

Jesus Christ led by example, forgiving those who crucified him (Luke 23:34). He did not fight against his enemies. Instead, he fulfilled Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53.

 

So, obviously Islam and Christianity are hugely different, one reason due to Jesus Christ's commands for his followers and his example.

 

Peace and God bless you.

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Tell me about the MMA churches. I'll forget about your view and consider theirs the one and only Christianity, and since you are Christian, you are one of them too.

 

One can discuss when you are able to distinguish. Have a nice day.

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Wait so God tells you to love your enemies but God  Himself doesnt love us enough to rid us of original sin (or blame us of the sins of others) or condemn all non christians to hell? I find that irrational and contradictory.

 

To say you are suppose to love the people who kills others unjustly is evil and just clearly wrong.

Edited by PureEthics
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(bismillah)

 

Dear Christianlady,

 

I come from a Christian family and was raised Christian for 16 years of my life and I must say that becoming Muslim has given me the greatest joy someone could ever experience spiritually.

Love comes when you see the reflection of God's attributes in a person, it is hypocrisy to claim that you love your enemies when all they do is cause you harm and hurt you and your beloved ones. Would you truly LOVE the people that kill your children, your parents? We have to see what is your definition of LOVE dear ChristianLady. While Islam does not PREACH hypocrisy to claim to love those who are BAD and work for the devil, Islam certainly preaches that nobody does a bad deed without getting their punishment for it unless their repent, and God is infinitely merciful that the punishments we get come from our own bad deeds.

 

In Islam we are supposed to forgive the people that hut you and certainly Allah does not want us to live in hatred, let alone go around killing people or harming people in his name because WE HATE something they did. As I mentioned before, the right posture of a true Muslim or what is expected from us is to disassociate from people that do BAD and are evil, and firmly believe that those who harm us will certainly pay for it in this life or in the here after because it is a promise of God in Qur'an that nobody escapes their bad deeds and nobody goes without reward for their good deeds. 

 

As for what happened in Paris and whatever happens with those so called Islamic terrorists, I will totally assume that people would have enough brain to understand that extremism, psychosis, and mental sickness reach everyone and do not spare you based on gender, religion, race, etc. It is a trend nowadays to shout "Allahu akbar" and kill people, as it is also a trend to write articles about any crime being attributed to Muslims just because perhaps it does not fit in their agenda that we are the fastest growing religion and a lot of governments will LOVE to destroy religion and the moral values that come with being a true follower. The more we grow, the more the evil people suffer, therefore they have decided to do anything they can to TRY to intimidate us and erase us off the map as much as they possibly can.

 

Brothers and sisters in Islam, stay strong and don't walk with shame, put your head up because God is watching over us, nobody can harm us when God is on our side.

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Wait so God tells you to love your enemies but God  Himself doesnt love us enough to rid us of original sin (or blame us of the sins of others) or condemn all non christians to hell? I find that irrational and contradictory.

 

To say you are suppose to love the people who kills others unjustly is evil and just clearly wrong.

 

Hello Pure Ethics,

 

Are you saying Jesus Christ is evil and clearly wrong for commanding his followers to love enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37)?

 

God can do things humans cannot. For example, I cannot create life out of nothing. God can. Therefore, God can tell me, a being He created) to do what He doesn't do. God can also do what I can't do.

 

Peace and God bless you.

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Hello Khalillallah,

 

This is one of the hugest differences between Christianity and Islam.

 

Jesus Christ commands his followers to love enemies:

 

When Jesus returns he will "sell his staff and buy with it a sword".

 

Let's be hippies and hand flowers out to people who ruin entire countries and oppress Muslims.

 

When he returns, you will see the how the holy spirit fights wars!

 

Edited by Khalilallah
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Hello Pure Ethics,

 

Are you saying Jesus Christ is evil and clearly wrong for commanding his followers to love enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37)?

 

God can do things humans cannot. For example, I cannot create life out of nothing. God can. Therefore, God can tell me, a being He created) to do what He doesn't do. God can also do what I can't do.

 

Peace and God bless you.

 

I am saying God or Jesus (depending on how you define your God as many christians have different understandings I guess) is with all due respect being hypocritical, and I think He is wrong. Your explanation on God telling us things to do, while he doesnt, doesnt make any sense what so ever. What kind of a human God or God who was sent to guide us, tells us to love our enemies, while He himself condemns us all to hell or makes all existing beings inherit an original sin? That in itself is irrational let alone the concept behind loving our enemies. Therefore this God that you claim goes by such unjust rules is unjust and evil. That is not a good thing. God who is suppose to be merciful wont send prophets to tell us how we are suppose to be, yet the prophets themselves work in hypocrisy. God whom you claiming is loving right? Is that love? To unjustly condemn all non christians to hell? To give someone who is not responsible of sin, a sin to carry on their shoulders? I dont think so.

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In the same way, the first Christian martyr, a Jewish man whose English name is Stephen, forgave his enemies who stoned him to death (Acts 7:59-60).

 Either he was christian or jew, which one is it?

 

 

Jesus Christ specifically commanded his followers to love their enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37).

 

This means to be patient and educate the uneducated. But this it self a limit. The theists did rally and tell the people of the world, do not disrespect their divines, for which the uneducated decided to mock them further. This in turn, created hatred and animosity within a subset of humans, who realized that love was ignored, thus they gave hate for hate, causing men to lose life. The west loves to make a big hoohhaaa when white people die and now has made martyrs of them. I also think, what the writers did, can be classified as hate speech, but it seems the law ignored it.

 

 

 

 

So, even when followers of Jesus Christ face death, we are not commanded to even defend ourselves. (American ideology does not follow Jesus Christ's commands and example in regards to self-defense and fighting/occupying other peoples' land.) Now, Jesus Christ did command his apostles to flee persecution:

 

"When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." - Matthew 10:23 (NIV)

Fleeing is a form of defense.

 

How can you flee when one is persecuted everywhere? Each human is allowed to dwell in Gods land and if they are persecuted they have the right to defend their right to exist. Its basic human nature. Definition of persecution can be defined as a loss of heritage, religion, ideology, system.

 

Its not spiritual strength that requires not to take revenge its being tactical in knowing, whether the proposed revenge will be of benefit. In the majority of cases it isn't.

 

I am assuming you are a Christian Zionist.

 

 

Christian evangelicals take Second Coming of Jesus as an immediate goal, which is to be attained through the ingathering of Jews in the Holy Land. This explains the

unconditional support that millions of Christians around the world offer not only to the state of Israel, but to the most militant Zionist settlers bent on “liberating” the entire territory between the Jordan and the Mediterranean. For the Evangelical preacher Jerry Falwell, the founding of the state of Israel in 1948

has been the most crucial event in history since the ascension of Jesus to heaven, and “proof that the second coming of Jesus Christ is nigh. [...] Without a state of Israel in the Holy Land, there cannot be the second coming of Jesus Christ, nor can there be a Last Judgement, nor the End of the World” [Tremblay 2003: 118]. This enthusiastic support is overtly motivated by a single consideration: that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land should be a prelude to their

acceptance of Christ, or, for those who fail to do so, to their physical destruction. According to a somewhat sarcastic Israeli author, their scenario is a drama in five acts, where the Jews disappear in the fourth [Gorenberg 2002].Kyoto Bulletin of Islamic Area Studies 3-1 (July 2009)

 

I am sure, you know of the many quotes regarding killing the bible too.

Edited by monad
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Hello Katyushka,

 

First of all, I am so thankful that Jesus Christ does not order his followers to kill apostates, those who no longer follow him. Rather, he just focuses on the faith of his faithful followers  (John 6:60-69).

 

Are you accusing Jesus Christ of hypocrisy and not truly loving his apostles since he allowed his followers to suffer because of him? Jesus Christ told his followers:

 

"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." - Matthew 5:11-12 (NIV)

 

Jesus Christ warned his followers that they would be persecuted because of him:

 

“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." - Matthew 24:9-14 (NIV)

 

What happened to his apostles? John, one of his chosen apostles, was exiled to Patmos (Revelation 1:9). Ancient history records that Peter was crucified upside down, and his other apostles were killed too. Please see the Fox's Book of Martyrs. Did they kill people? Nope. Rather, they were punished for believing in Jesus Christ and telling other people about him.

 

Jesus Christ does love his apostles and followers. This world is not the all in all. He promises us rewards in Heaven (Matthew 5:12). Even when we suffer for his namesake, Jesus Christ loves us. He suffered for us before we even knew and loved him, fulfilling Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53.

 

Thank you for giving your opinion concerning the tragedy of the journalists being murdered in Paris.

 

Peace and God bless you.


When Jesus returns he will "sell his staff and buy with it a sword".

 

Let's be hippies and hand flowers out to people who ruin entire countries and oppress Muslims.

 

When he returns, you will see the how the holy spirit fights wars!

 

 

Hello Khallilah,

 

Could you please reference your quote? Thanks.

 

Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors as oneself (Matthew 22:37-40) includes loving both Muslims and Non-Muslims as well.

 

When Jesus Christ returns, he "will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." - Matthew 24:31 (NIV)

 

Please read all of Matthew 24 for context. Thanks.

 

In the meantime, Jesus' commands to love enemies are clear. While horribly many people who call themselves Christians disobey Jesus' commands, that does not negate Jesus' commands, nor his example. Again, Jesus Christ did not kill the Romans who were oppressing his people the Jews, nor did he kill the Jewish people who rejected him. Rather, he said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” (in Luke 23:34). Again, Stephen, the first Jewish Christian martyr, followedJesus' example by praying, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” (in Acts 7:60) while he was being stoned to death. Neither Jesus Christ nor Stephen had killed anybody.

 

Peace and God bless you

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Hello Katyushka,

 

 

 

Peace and God bless you

You are one of those annoying ladies who live in a bubble and have made religion nothing more than opium for the oppressed and misused people.

 

All you do is stand and pointlessly say peace peace peace. I wish the reality was peace.

 

Please get real here. Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Iran, Lebanon and Palestine. Think of how useless the world would be against oppression if they all followed your doctrine which you attach to Jesus. Jesus is a prophet of the same God that burns people in hell, that drowned Pharoh and his army that gave Namrod a painful and slow death, that ruined the people of Lot, that drowned the people of Noah and will surely ruin Israel and the US just as God has ruined all the past empires.

 

So please spare me your hippy culture and stop calling it a religion of God.

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I am saying God or Jesus (depending on how you define your God as many christians have different understandings I guess) is with all due respect being hypocritical, and I think He is wrong. Your explanation on God telling us things to do, while he doesnt, doesnt make any sense what so ever. What kind of a human God or God who was sent to guide us, tells us to love our enemies, while He himself condemns us all to hell or makes all existing beings inherit an original sin? That in itself is irrational let alone the concept behind loving our enemies. Therefore this God that you claim goes by such unjust rules is unjust and evil. That is not a good thing. God who is suppose to be merciful wont send prophets to tell us how we are suppose to be, yet the prophets themselves work in hypocrisy. God whom you claiming is loving right? Is that love? To unjustly condemn all non christians to hell? To give someone who is not responsible of sin, a sin to carry on their shoulders? I dont think so.

 

Hello Pure Ethics,

 

Jesus Christ's command to love enemies came long before you and I existed. Personally, I don't think I am worthy to judge God's ways. Isaiah beautifully relates that God's ways are higher than our ways, and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts:

 

"Give ear and come to me;

    listen, that you may live.

I will make an everlasting covenant with you,

    my faithful love promised to David.

See, I have made him a witness to the peoples,

    a ruler and commander of the peoples.

Surely you will summon nations you know not,

    and nations you do not know will come running to you,

because of the Lord your God,

    the Holy One of Israel,

    for he has endowed you with splendor.”

Seek the Lord while he may be found;

    call on him while he is near.

Let the wicked forsake their ways

    and the unrighteous their thoughts.

Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them,

    and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,

    neither are your ways my ways,”

declares the Lord.

“As the heavens are higher than the earth,

    so are my ways higher than your ways

    and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10 As the rain and the snow

    come down from heaven,

and do not return to it

    without watering the earth

and making it bud and flourish,

    so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,

11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:

    It will not return to me empty,

but will accomplish what I desire

    and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

12 You will go out in joy

    and be led forth in peace;

the mountains and hills

    will burst into song before you,

and all the trees of the field

    will clap their hands.

13 Instead of the thornbush will grow the juniper,

    and instead of briers the myrtle will grow.

This will be for the Lord’s renown,

    for an everlasting sign,

    that will endure forever.”

- Isaiah 55:3-13 (NIV)

 

Until I can create life out of nothing, I don't believe myself to be worthy of judging God. (By the way, I don't think I can ever create life out of nothing; hence judging God's plan is not my job.)

 

Peace and God bless you

Hello Khallilallah,

 

There is no reason to personally verbally attack me. However, Jesus does say, “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." - Matthew 5:11-12 (NIV)

 

So, thank you for the blessing! :)

 

I did not make up Jesus' words. Jesus Christ lived out his words in his actions. He could have amassed a huge army of angels and fought, overthrowing the Romans and creating a huge Jewish Empire, but he didn't. Instead, he fulfilled Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53, and commanded his followers to love. While you can judge me if you want, God is the Judge who matters to me.

 

As for all countries, if people of every country would obey Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors as oneself (Matthew 22:37-40), love each other (John 15:12), and love enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37), then there would be no more war.

 

Peace and God bless you

You are one of those annoying ladies who live in a bubble and have made religion nothing more than opium for the oppressed and misused people.

 

All you do is stand and pointlessly say peace peace peace. I wish the reality was peace.

 

Please get real here. Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Iran, Lebanon and Palestine. Think of how useless the world would be against oppression if they all followed your doctrine which you attach to Jesus. Jesus is a prophet of the same God that burns people in hell, that drowned Pharoh and his army that gave Namrod a painful and slow death, that ruined the people of Lot, that drowned the people of Noah and will surely ruin Israel and the US just as God has ruined all the past empires.

 

So please spare me your hippy culture and stop calling it a religion of God.

Hello Monad,

 

Stephen was a Jewish who followed Jesus Christ. Hence, he can be called a Christian Jew. Jews for Jesus would call him a Jew for Jesus. :)

 

Please read all of Acts chapter 6 and 7 for context on Stephen's life and death.

 

One could say that fleeing is a form of self-defense. It's a very kind form, since violence is not involved. It's much like a deer that flees the hunter, hmm? So, the deer is defending herself by fleeing.

 

Not reacting with violence to violence is indeed a spiritual strength, because many people go the easy route: violence.  A strong man who can hold his temper and not lash out in violence exercises considerable mental and spiritual strength.  My husband is proof of that. He is spiritually, mentally, and physically strong. He is also known as a peacemaker, because he doesn't believe in violence but rather in love and logic.

 

Jesus Christ said,

"Blessed are the merciful,

    for they will be shown mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart,

    for they will see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers,

    for they will be called children of God."

- Matthew 5:7-9 (NIV)

 

Israel is doing wrong by not obeying Jesus Christ's commands to love their neighbors as oneself (Matthew 22:37-40) and love enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37). I pray more and more Jewish people come to accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah, and more and more Christians, both Jewish and Gentile, obey Jesus Christ's commands to love, including me.

 

Peace and God bless you

 

 Either he was christian or jew, which one is it?

 

 

This means to be patient and educate the uneducated. But this it self a limit. The theists did rally and tell the people of the world, do not disrespect their divines, for which the uneducated decided to mock them further. This in turn, created hatred and animosity within a subset of humans, who realized that love was ignored, thus they gave hate for hate, causing men to lose life. The west loves to make a big hoohhaaa when white people die and now has made martyrs of them. I also think, what the writers did, can be classified as hate speech, but it seems the law ignored it.

 

 

 

Fleeing is a form of defense.

 

How can you flee when one is persecuted everywhere? Each human is allowed to dwell in Gods land and if they are persecuted they have the right to defend their right to exist. Its basic human nature. Definition of persecution can be defined as a loss of heritage, religion, ideology, system.

 

Its not spiritual strength that requires not to take revenge its being tactical in knowing, whether the proposed revenge will be of benefit. In the majority of cases it isn't.

 

I am assuming you are a Christian Zionist.

 

 

I am sure, you know of the many quotes regarding killing the bible too.

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Hello Pure Ethics,

 

Peace and God bless you

You do know that those countries and all the countries that are ruined ever since Industrialisation of the west, all the trouble in the middle east links right back to Christian western governments, so don't tell me to love my neighbour, I have loved my neighbour, Christians seem to have a problem with loving their neighbour.

 

Also don't forget your peaceful, holy and just crusades.

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I think radical Christianity is a great danger to this world; while there may be peace-loving verses in the bible there are also frightening quotes from Paul in Romans and other epistles which give a ruler the divine right to use the 'sword' as an agent of God's wrath. Moderate Christians have set these passages to obscurity and focused more on the gospel's teachings about not taking revenge and such.

 

But there are many radical Christians in the world today who use Paul's words as an excuse to kill blasphemers, homosexuals, apostates, witches, and disobedient children. 

 

I am curious, have you ever read the history of just war theory in Christianity? I find it very interesting how St. Augustine justified torturing heretics on the same basis Proverbs justifies child abuse.

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You do know that those countries and all the countries that are ruined ever since Industrialisation of the west, all the trouble in the middle east links right back to Christian western governments, so don't tell me to love my neighbour, I have loved my neighbour, Christians seem to have a problem with loving their neighbour.

 

Also don't forget your peaceful, holy and just crusades.

 

Hello Khallilallah,

Jesus Christ is the one who tells his followers to love their neighbors. I am not Jesus Christ. Rather, I strive to obey him. Sadly I have disobeyed him sometimes, but I have fallen down on my face, asking God for forgiveness, and strive to obey and love my neighbors and enemies like Jesus Christ commands.

 

The Crusaders disobeyed Jesus Christ. They either were not truly Christian, were deliberately disobeying Jesus Christ, or were ignorantly disobeying him. Either way, I believe God will punish them on Judgement Day for disobeying Jesus Christ, especially while calling themselves Christians.

 

Peace and God bless you

Jahangiram! Hello! How are you? I hope very well!

 

If God wills, I hope to answer you tomorrow. I am cooking salmon and potatoes and I don't want to burn them.

 

Peace and God bless you and all the Shiachat members

 

 

I think radical Christianity is a great danger to this world; while there may be peace-loving verses in the bible there are also frightening quotes from Paul in Romans and other epistles which give a ruler the divine right to use the 'sword' as an agent of God's wrath. Moderate Christians have set these passages to obscurity and focused more on the gospel's teachings about not taking revenge and such.

 

But there are many radical Christians in the world today who use Paul's words as an excuse to kill blasphemers, homosexuals, apostates, witches, and disobedient children. 

 

I am curious, have you ever read the history of just war theory in Christianity? I find it very interesting how St. Augustine justified torturing heretics on the same basis Proverbs justifies child abuse.

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As salam to those who seeks truth. May God guides us to the path of righteousness, truly He is all-merciful and all -compassionate and this path is the perfect way in any kind of senses, truly He is all-knowing and all-wise.

My opinion is my opinion and it is influenced by my religion and my role models for my opinion is not necessarily perfect but may God guides us to the truth. I condemned any actions of terror in any kind of names. My prophet Muhammad SAW and his ahlul-bayt teach me to love and not to spread destruction on the surface of the Earth.

But for further discussion, you must must first clarify what is your definition of love. For me, to love is to spread/show peace, kindness, truth and empathy.

 

So, how to love your enemy and at the same time loving your attacked brothers and sisters? 

It is to remind the enemy of truth and righteousness and at the same time defend ourselves if attacked for love is not weakness. I give you an example, in a situation where a burglar enters your house and threatened you family. The thing the burglar wanted is money that is saved for your sick sister urgent medical operation given you also have the ability to protect your family through martial arts. How would you show love to this burglar and at the same time to your family? Will you flee and hope your sister will become better and also the burglar will repent? will you advice and warn the burglar and hope he realizes he is doing wrong and then, he repent? will you protect your family if the burglar wouldn't listened and hope you will not do much damage and the burglar will repent later on? 

 

In terms of hate, it is not wrong to hate corruption and destruction. How could you not hate beings who spread corruption, malice, destruction and cruelty to kind/innocent people when you say you love these kind/innocent people?  

 

Throughout the history of Islam in the context of our imams and prophet, they has shown us how to love. You can read about them and their actions extensively later on if you really seek truth and righteousness. Peace be upon Jesus prophet of Allah the beneficent, peace be upon Muhammad SAW and his ahlul-bayt, only to Allah and to Him alone we worship and ask for assistance.

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Hi Christian Lady

 

Happy New Year 

 

This is one of the hugest differences between Christianity and Islam.

 

Not at all.

 

You are completely mistaken.

 

There is absolutely no difference between the teachings of Christ and Islam.

 

The "love your enemies" from Jesus must necessarily be a figurative statement.

 

If it is to be taken literally, then God is the biggest hypocrite,because He himself will not show much love to his enemies.

 

Jesus  talked about the 'weeping and gnashing of teeth".

 

And it is going to happen.

 

If God literally loves his enemies, then no one will go to hell.  

 

But some people will.

 

At best, "love your enemies" means nothing more than "be kind to them as much as you can"

 

Unless you are saying that God a liar and a devilish hypocrite.

 

And by the way, I personally know hundreds of Christians but not one single one who literally "loves his enemies".

 

It simply is not possible to love your enemies.

 

It is a hoax. 

 

Whoever says it is possible to love your enemies is a plain liar.

 

All the best for the New Year.
 
And God bless you and yours

 

I came back after a long absence due to my curiousity over what Shiachat members think concerning the people who killed journalists in Paris. If you could please express your opinion on the incident, I would very much appreciate that.

 

That is a very strange request, I must say.

 

How do you expect anyone to feel apart from horror and rage?

 

I think your request rings of misapprehensions about Islam.

 

You are thinking perhaps that some Muslims could be expected to have some sympathy for those killers.

 

Be aware that God hates them.

 

They shall abide in hell as long as heaven and hell are there.

 

According to the Quran, killing one innocent person will be equivalent to killing all mankind. And saving the life of one innocent person will be seen as equivalent to saving the lives of all human beings   -    [5:32] 


I am cooking salmon and potatoes and I don't want to burn them.

 

Boy, you bring water into my mouth.

 

I was already hungry.

 

Time for me to eat something.  


The Old Testament ordered the execution of those that blaspheme

 

Some people think they can outsmart and belittle Islam by taking the view that the NT overrides the OT, 

 

I don't think a Book of God can override another Book of God in matters of principle.

 

In some small matters yes, but certainly not in such important things.

 

Let us suppose that the NT does indeed override the OT.

 

Proponents of that idea seem to forget that the horror actions of the OT were largely at God's instruction and behest.

 

So if the sweet words of the NT override the OT, it just means that Jesus is a very sweet person but God is not.

 

Is that what they would have us believe?

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Either way, I believe God will punish them on Judgement Day for disobeying Jesus Christ, especially while calling themselves Christians.

 

Why would He punish them?  Doesn't God love His enemies? I thought that if you love someone, you cannot bear to see them suffer.  God must be very strange indeed ! 

Your God seems to be full of contradictions - asking Jesus to tell people to love their enemies, while Himself making them suffer.  

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There are many equivalents in the Quran to the biblical "love your enemies", if it not to be taken literally.

 

For example

 

[3:134]

  • Those who spend (in charity), in prosperity as well as in adversity,
  • those who control their anger and forgive people.
  • God loves the doers of good

 

[42:37]

  • And those who avoid the great sins and indecencies and
  • When they are angered, they forgive.
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No confusion here...How about "Thou shalt not kill" ? 

 

Jesus says love your enemies, the answer from Muslims.. God doesn't love his enemies.

 

Are you Muslims getting confused between Jesus and God? I thought that was a Christian thing.

 

This is the very thing all non Muslims fear and none of you are giving me any reason to relax. 

I keep hearing Islam is a peaceful religion, but it doesn't go very far. Posts like this show what's really in your hearts. 

God's curse be upon those enemies of the Prophets.

 

Who says God's curse equates to murder? Who gives you the right to decide who lives, who dies. Obvious answer...we don't care. You think God gave the order?  "Vengeance is mine, sayeth the LORD" Are you saving Him the trouble? 

 

Embracing Islam is farther from my mind than ever. I'd rather die one of the victims than be associated with someone who even silently condones such crimes in their hearts. Most certainly you have no concept of the love Jesus was talking about.

 

Show me where in the Quran it says to plot the cold blooded murder of someone who ridiculed Muhammad, (years ago) execute him and anyone innocent around him.

 

When the cartoon first came out innocent people already died. Nuns, of all people. Absolutely nothing to do with the cartoon, just a bunch of bloodthirsty Muslims who have to kill somebody, (anybody) for the cause, burn churches, but wait. That's not enough, still gotta kill more. This is not justifiable, it's not God's will, it's demonic. You can't see that?

 

MMA churches, are you kidding me? You have nothing better than that? They sponsor cage fighters, what does that have to do with anything? Nothing makes me one of them short of twisted reasoning. Do I also dance with snakes? Tell me, how many people have they killed?       You still here? 

 

You can babble on about crusades centuries ago as if it has something to do with today. What kind of twisted, tormented reasoning...actually, I don't want to know, I'd rather walk away, you can shoot me in the back.

 

For Shame. 

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Jesus says love your enemies, the answer from Muslims.. God doesn't love his enemies.

 

It is not an answer. It is our belief. We are not trying to contradict Jesus. Our belief, however, is that God does not love His enemies.  Simple as that.  And among those that He loves, He doesn't love everyone equally. And among those that He hates, He doesn't hate everyone equally.  Everyone gets God's love or hate depending on what he deserves.

 

The Quran is very clear on the subject. A  few examples:-

 

God does not love

  • mischief [2:205]
  • mischief-makers  [5:64], [28:77]
  • traitors [8:58] 
  • the conceited [4:36], [31:18], [57:23]
  • those who wrong others [3:57], [3:140], [42:40]

As Muslims, we do respect the teachings of Jesus but as others have pointed out, we do not think that "love your enemies" is meant to be taken literally. However, if Christians wish to insist that Jesus meant it literally, it is fine with us. But that does not change our beliefs. As far as we are concerned, however, God does not love His enemies nor does He expect us to.

 

He does expect us to be kind to them and to forgive their lapses but not to love them. There is a difference between loving and forgiving.  

 

You can forgive someone you don't love. And you may love someone whom you find difficult to forgive.

 

Hope you get the point.

I keep hearing Islam is a peaceful religion, but it doesn't go very far.

 

Perhaps not.

 

Islam is primarily a "'religion of justice". Islam cherishes justice above everything. If God was forced to make a choice between justice and mercy, He might be constrained to go for justice. 

Show me where in the Quran it says to plot the cold blooded murder of someone who ridiculed Muhammad, (years ago) execute him and anyone innocent around him.

 

Nowhere. Did anyone seem to indicate otherwise?  

You can babble on about crusades centuries ago as if it has something to do with today.

 

The events in Paris cannot be justified by the Crusades. 

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It is not an answer. It is our belief. We are not trying to contradict Jesus. Our belief, however, is that God does not love His enemies.  Simple as that.  And among those that He loves, He doesn't love everyone equally. And among those that He hates, He doesn't hate everyone equally.  Everyone gets God's love or hate depending on what he deserves.

 

The Quran is very clear on the subject. A  few examples:-

 

God does not love

  • mischief [2:205]
  • mischief-makers  [5:64], [28:77]
  • traitors [8:58] 
  • the conceited [4:36], [31:18], [57:23]
  • those who wrong others [3:57], [3:140], [42:40]

As Muslims, we do respect the teachings of Jesus but as others have pointed out, we do not think that "love your enemies" is meant to be taken literally. However, if Christians wish to insist that Jesus meant it literally, it is fine with us. But that does not change our beliefs. As far as we are concerned, however, God does not love His enemies nor does He expect us to.

 

He does expect us to be kind to them and to forgive their lapses but not to love them. There is a difference between loving and forgiving.  

 

You can forgive someone you don't love. And you may love someone whom you find difficult to forgive.

 

Hope you get the point.

I get the point. You have no idea. I have a struggle going on and am forced to forgive over and over, seventy times seven...I must be getting close. "Be angry and sin not" torments me. I have no good way to explain, yet they still live. If God were to come to me personally and say "This person must die" I'd say Then LORD, send a Muslim. If it were to happen, I'd pray they had time to reconcile. Love has nothing to do with like.

 

If God hates, it's God choice. Who better to deal with it? Did God speak to these gentle peace loving Muslims and tell them to kill Charles and whoever was around him? 

 

When the world trade towers went down, I know Muslims who cried, I know Muslims who cheered. Regardless it was an inside job, who do you think I care to associate with?

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I get the point. 

 

Thanks

 

 You have no idea. 

 

About what?

 

When the world trade towers went down, I know Muslims who cried, I know Muslims who cheered. Regardless it was an inside job, who do you think I care to associate with?

 

I think I might know what is bothering you. Indeed Muslims have done lots of bad things in the last 20 - 30 years. I assure you most of us don't approve of it. But there is little we can do.

 

By the way, it was 2.30 am in Alberta at the time you made this post and you were still on the Internet.

 

Relax, man. Go to sleep. You  & I cannot  change the world.

 

Let us all pray that sanity returns to the world.  Let us hope for peace.

 

What else can I say?

 

Now - go to bed, buddy. 

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Thanks

 

 

About what?

 

 

I think I might know what is bothering you. Indeed Muslims have done lots of bad things in the last 20 - 30 years. I assure you most of us don't approve of it. But there is little we can do.

 

By the way, it was 2.30 am in Alberta at the time you made this post and you were still on the Internet.

 

Relax, man. Go to sleep. You  & I cannot  change the world.

 

Let us all pray that sanity returns to the world.  Let us hope for peace.

 

What else can I say?

 

Now - go to bed, buddy. 

I'm too old to be sent to bed. No worries. I don't have a job I have to get up for, I'm retired and dozed off twice during the day. It's too cold outside to do anything more than feed the animals, and I had an operation recently that doesn't allow me to do much other than hang around..

 

About what?

 

 

long long story, forgive me if I don't go into detail, my point is, they still live. As long as they live, God has opportunity to change them. Once dead that opportunity is over. If nothing else it is an ardent test of my faith. To end their life is to take all opportunity away from them and God. I see no human as having that right.

 

Here's what you can do...report them to authorities. Anyone associated with these type of people have an idea of what they are capable of. "To know what is right and not do it, to him it is sin"  The best way for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.

 

There's a kid in Canada right now. His family is Hamas, which he rejected. He's here because his father tried to kill him...twice. 

 

Doing something about evil does not have to include automatic weapons. 

 

The stupidity is, the cartoon caused a ha ha ha, not even a ha ha ha ha, and was forgotten by everyone except Muslims. I never even saw the cartoon. I only heard about it when the nuns died and the churches were burnt. This makes no sense to me and I don't think you can explain it.

 

Can you smooth this over by planting grass on their graves? Je suis Charles is a big movement now. Gonna need a lot of grass seed. Yes, many more could die peacefully for the "cause". 

 

Is this the way you want Islam to be promoted? Your choice, certainly not mine.

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Is this the way you want Islam to be promoted? 

 

We are aware of the damage all this has done to Islam.  I, for one, have no idea how it will be resolved, if ever.  I wish we had a central authority like the Vatican or the Archbishop of Canterbury. That might have helped.

 

In absence of which, we need someone with charisma and clout.  But apparently, there doesn't seem to be anyone around.   Muslim scholars are too divisive and divided among themselves.

 

I'm too old to be sent to bed. 

 

Well, what time do you go to bed if you must keep brooding all night?

 

It is 4 am now in Alberta. 

There's a kid in Canada right now. His family is Hamas, which he rejected. He's here because his father tried to kill him...twice. 

 

Tell me no more. It is all madness all around.  Perhaps a sign of the end-times.

The best way for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.

 

Well said.

 

Here's what you can do...report them to authorities. Anyone associated with these type of people have an idea of what they are capable of. "To know what is right and not do it, to him it is sin" 

 

Are you talking to me? Do you seriously think I would know anyone with that [Edited Out] of a brain.  Well, I don 't. 

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Hello Jahangiram,

 

(What does Jahangiram mean, please? I don't remember if I have already asked but if I have, then I forgot.)
 

 

I think radical Christianity is a great danger to this world;

 

One of the most harmful and perverted issues in the world is when people kill in the name of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ commanded his followers to love one's neighbor as oneself (Matthew 22:37-40); love others (John 15:12),

and love even enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37).

 

Jesus Christ and his apostles did not kill anybody, but rather were killed (with the exception of John who was expelled to Patmos). Jesus Christ rose from the dead, then ascended to the Father, not killing anyone.

So, killing in his name is like calling oneself a vegetarian yet eating beef.

I believe God will punish all those who disobey Jesus Christ while calling themselves his followers, or Christians.

 

But there are many radical Christians in the world today who use Paul's words as an excuse to kill blasphemers, homosexuals, apostates, witches, and disobedient children.

 

Could you please quote Paul's words and also give examples of "radical Christians" killing blasphemers, homosexuals, apostates, witches, and disobedient children today?

 

The following are horrible cases of people who called themselves Christians who shot/killed people who worked at abortion clinics:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence

  • March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescue in the summer of 1992. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.[10]
  • July 29, 1994: Dr. John Britton and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside another facility, the Ladies Center, in Pensacola. Rev. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings. Hill received a death sentence and was executed on September 3, 2003. The clinic in Pensacola had been bombed before in 1984 and was also bombed subsequently in 2012.
  • December 30, 1994: Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi was arrested and confessed to the killings. He died in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.
  • January 29, 1998: Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Robert Rudolph, who was also responsible for the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, was charged with the crime and received two life sentences as a result.
  • October 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot to death with a high-powered rifle at his home in Amherst, New York.[11] His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Slepian's murder after being apprehended in France in 2001.

 

What these men did, killing the people who worked at abortion clinics, was evil and was disobedient to Jesus Christ's commands.

 

Long time ago, people who called themselves Christians did kill "heretics" and homosexuals, wiches and others, but they were disobeying Jesus Christ, either deliberately or ignorantly. God will punish them on Judgement Day for that, if they had not repented before they died.

 

I am curious, have you ever read the history of just war theory in Christianity?

 

I have read some of the history, and it saddens me how some people who profess to be Christian blatantly disobey Jesus Christ. Most who deliberately disobey Jesus Christ do so because they have evil in their heart: greed, hatred, lust, or powerlust.

They want and so they kill and torture and destroy to take. :( That is not obeying Jesus Christ at all,

but is rather adhering to the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.

 

That reminds me of the following passage:

"Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Fatheris not in them. For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world.The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever." - 1 John 2:15-17 (NIV)

 

While praying to the Father, Jesus Christ says that those who truly follow him are not of this world:

 

“I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world,

so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 

I have given them your word and the world has hated them,

for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.

My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.

Sanctify them bythe truth; your word is truth.

As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 

For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified." - John 17:13-19 (NIV)

 

John, one of the 12 apostles of Jesus, says:

 

"We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands.

Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 

But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them.

This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did." - 1 John 2:3-6

 

John also says:

 

"For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 

Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him?

Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous.

Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters,if the world hates you.

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other.

Anyone who does not love remains in death.

Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him."

 

This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us.

And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. 

If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them,

how can the love of God be in that person?

Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth." - 1 John 3:11-18 (NIV)

 

Everyone is a brother or sister in humanity, and everyone is a potential brother or sister in Christ.

 

 

I find it very interesting how St. Augustine justified torturing heretics on the same basis Proverbs justifies child abuse.
 

I wonder what "St." Augustine though of Jesus' commands to love enemies?

Personally, I do not follow "St" Augustine and I don't consider him to be a holy person.

Jesus Christ did not torture or kill those who stopped following him.

When followers left him, he focused on his faithful followers:

 

"On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 

Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 

The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing.

The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”

For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 

 

He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

“You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 

We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.” - John 6:60-69 (NIV)

 

If there were accounts of Jesus Christ and his 12 apostles torturing and killing apostates,

then I would understand "St." Augustine.

However, I think "St." Augustine places Roman/Greek ideals into his beliefs. Romans and Greeks did torture people.

 

while there may be peace-loving verses in the bible there are also frightening quotes from Paul in Romans and other epistles which give a ruler the divine right to use the 'sword' as an agent of God's wrath.

 

Are you speaking about this passage?

 

"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established.

The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted,

and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 

For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong.

Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 

For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good.

But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason.

They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 

Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

 

This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 

Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue;

if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another,

for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,”

“You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[Exodus 20:13-15,17; Deut. 5:17-19,21] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[Lev. 19:18]

Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." - Romans 13:1-10 (NIV)

 

This passage is important because it shows that followers of Jesus Christ are not to rise up to attack the nation's authorities.

For example, Jesus Christ did not rise up to attack the Romans who were oppressing his people the Jews. He could have.

With his miracles, Jesus could have become the greatest king ever in the world, and he could have built up a Jewish army and forced everyone to convert to Judaism and bow down to him, but he didn't. Rather, he obeyed the Father and suffered, dying once for all for mankind, and rising from the dead, fulfilling Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53, as well as other prophecies concerning him.

 

About the Romans who were oppressing his people the Jews, Jesus Christ said, "“So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.” - accounted in Matthew 22:21 (NIV)

 

The Romans were not nice in general. However, God's plan was not for followers of Jesus Christ to kill Romans. Why? Because God brought Romans to Jesus Christ too!!! One of my most favorite passages in the Bible is Acts 10. That's when Gentiles became officially brothers and sisters in Christ with Jewish followers of Jesus Christ!!! It's beautiful!!! They became one: Jews and Gentiles!!!! If Jews were killing Gentiles, that could not be. One of the most horrendous things in history is that Gentiles who called themselves Christians have tortured and murdered Jews. This should not be!!! Jewish people, whether they accept Yeshua as the Messiah or not, are our brothers in humanity and are potential brothers and sisters in Christ!!! People from all over the world are our potential brothers and sistersin Christ, and are brothers and sisters in humanity. They should not be killed or tortured or harmed, but rather loved and told about Jesus Christ!!! (Sorry; I am very passionate about this.)

 

Moderate Christians have set these passages to obscurity and focused more on the gospel's teachings about not taking revenge and such.

 

Jesus Christ is the Founder of Christianity. Instead of looking at "moderate" Christians, we have to look at Jesus Christ. How did he live? Did he torture and kill people? No. The only "violent" thing he did is the following:

 

"When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 

In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 

So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle;

he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 1

To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!”

 

His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.”[Psalm 69:9]

The Jews then responded to him, “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 

But the temple he had spoken of was his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said.

Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

 

Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name. But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. 

He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person." - John 2:13-24 (NIV)

 

Jesus Christ did not hurt anybody with the whip however. He used the whip to scare the animals out of the temple courts. (The whip sound scares animals, making them flee.)

 

Jesus Christ is Jewish, descendant of King David. He worshipped in the Temple. Sadly, the Romans destroyed the Temple in 70 AD. Jesus Christ prophesied this would happen (Matthew 24:1-2).

 

So, instead of focusing on "moderate" Christians, it's vital to focus on Jesus Christ and his actions, as well as his commandments for his followers. It's also important to study the lives of his chosen apostles who walked and talked with him, and who obeyed his commands, including his command to make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28:18-20). Killing and torturing and forcing people to "convert" is not what Jesus Christ did, and he did not command his apostles do so either. Rather, his apostles endured persecution while they told people about what Jesus Christ did and said. They did not persecute anyone. Christians are to obey Jesus Christ, like his apostles did.

 

Peace and God bless you

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      and according to Christians the God of the OT and the NT is one.

 

Hello Revolving Ace,

 

The God of the OT and the NT is one: the One and Only God, Creator of the Heavens and the earth, the God of Abraham, isaac, and Jacob (Israel).

 

God brought the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31 through Yeshua Ha Mashiach (Jesus Christ).

 

Yes God commanded the children of Israel to kill apostates. He also ordered animal sacrifices in the tabernacle or temple.

(Please see Leviticus.)

However, when Jesus Christ came, he fuilfilled many of the prophecies and promises of the Old Testament,

including the requirement for sacrifice. Jesus is the Lamb of God (John 1:29) who takes away the sin of the world.

He is the Lamb God provided (Genesis 22:8), the fuilfillment of Isaiah 53.

 

Jesus Christ took upon himself the harsh punishments God commanded for the children of Israel.

He came to fuillfill the Law and the Prophets (Matthew 5:17). Fulfill means to complete.

Sacrificing animals for one's sins is no longer a requirement, since Jesus Christ fulfilled that requirement:

 

"He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:

Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 

He told them, “This is what is written:

The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 

and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

You are witnesses of these things. 

I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them.

While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 

Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. 

And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God.- Luke 24:44-53 (NIV)

 

Jesus' followers are to obey his commands:

 

“If you love me, keep my commands. 

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—the Spirit of truth.

The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him.

But you know him, for he lives with you and will bein you. 

I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

 

Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 

On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me.

The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

 

Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching.

My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 

Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching.

These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

 

 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things

and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives.

Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." - John 14:15-27 (NIV)

 

When Jesus Christ returns, he will fulfill (complete) the rest of the promises/prophesies concerning him.

 

Peace and God bless you

Christian :Lady

 

You seem to have ignored my post # 19 completely.

 

Hello Baqar,

 

Patience is a virtue.

 

I only have 2 hands.

 

I will see what you have written, plus I have messages I need to read and reply...

 

Peace and God bless you

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Hi Christian Lady

 

Thanks very much for your kind words.

 

I would also suggest you read the posts from some others of our friends  - like post numbers 20, 21, 22 and 23.  

 

We all try to explain some very important points that you seem to have missed.

 

Anyway, take your time.

 

But just a point -   if one makes a post, I think they should anticipate the traffic and visit the thread accordingly. In some cases, that may be necessary perhaps several times a day. otherwise they may have too much on their hands to deal with.

 

I know you have a lot of other important things to do apart from responding to this thread but I think you have come back after almost 24 hours.

 

I hope you understand what I am trying to say. 

 

No pressure - take your time.

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One of the most harmful and perverted issues in the world is when people kill in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

Absolutely right

 

At the same time, it is also a complete travesty of the truth to kill in the name of Islam,  like it has been going on all over the world,  for so many years.    

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Ahmad Hussein, on 08 Jan 2015 - 3:42 PM, said:

As salam to those who seeks truth. May God guides us to the path of righteousness, truly He is all-merciful and all -compassionate and this path is the perfect way in any kind of senses, truly He is all-knowing and all-wise.

 

 

Hello Ahmad Hussein,

As Salam to you and everybody.

Amen, God is all-merciful, all compasionate, all-knowing and all wise, as well as all powerful! 

God guides us to the path of righteousness!

Jesus Christ is the way (path), the truth and the life, the only way to the Father (John 14:6).

Nothing is impossible for God! :)

 

 

My opinion is my opinion and it is influenced by my religion and my role models for my opinion is not necessarily perfect but may God guides us to the truth.”

 

Agreed. My opinion is my opinion as well, influenced by Jesus Christ and his chosen apostles.

God guided me to Jesus Christ through His amazing grace and love.

 

 “I condemned any actions of terror in any kind of names. My prophet Muhammad SAW and his ahlul-bayt teach me to love and not to spread destruction on the surface of the Earth.”

 

Could you please quote in the Qur'an and hadiths where Muhammad teaches you to love? Thank you.

 

But for further discussion, you must must first clarify what is your definition of love.”

 

I have 3 definitions of love.

The first one is most important to me because they are Jesus’ words accounted in Luke 6:27-37.

Love includes doing good, blessing, praying for their well-being, not reacting in violence to violence,

giving, and doing to others what I would like them to do for me.

(For example, I do not want to be enslaved; therefore I will not enslave others.)

Love also includes not expecting anything back, being kind, and merciful, as God my Father is merciful.

 

The second definition I have of love is found in Paul’s letter to the church at Corinth:

 

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 

It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.” – 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 (NIV)

 

The third definition is from John, one of Jesus’ apostles:

 

“Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God.

Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.  

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.  

This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.  

No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.” – 1 John 4:7-12

 

Ahmad Hussein, on 08 Jan 2015 - 3:42 PM, said:

.  For me, to love is to spread/show peace, kindness, truth and empathy.

 

Cool.

 

So, how to love your enemy and at the same time loving your attacked brothers and sisters? 

 

Good question. The best way to love one’s attacked brothers and sisters is to pray for them.

God is amazing!!! I have heard of so many testimonies of God answering prayers, sending His angels to protect His people.

When God doesn’t protect, He has a reason. However, many times He answers the prayer for protection with, “Yes.”

I personally think the reason why we don’t see even more miracles is because of the lack of the faith and the desire of people to protect themselves rather than depend on God.

 

It is to remind the enemy of truth and righteousness and at the same time defend ourselves if attacked for love is not weakness. I give you an example, in a situation where a burglar enters your house and threatened you family. The thing the burglar wanted is money that is saved for your sick sister urgent medical operation given you also have the ability to protect your family through martial arts. How would you show love to this burglar and at the same time to your family? Will you flee and hope your sister will become better and also the burglar will repent? will you advice and warn the burglar and hope he realizes he is doing wrong and then, he repent? will you protect your family if the burglar wouldn't listened and hope you will not do much damage and the burglar will repent later on? 

 

That is a good question and what-if scenario. That would also be a test, if someday God allows such a thing to happen.

If ever a burglar did that, I hope I would obey Jesus’ commands accounted in Luke 6:27-37.

It is remarkably easy to say I would, yet at the time of the test, to fail.

I pray if and when God allows me to be tested in any way, that I will obey Jesus Christ. That is my prayer.

 

About having a sick sister, I am blessed with an amazing church that includes Christian doctors and nurses who are willing to freely help those who cannot afford medical care. They do so out of love for Jesus Christ, the Great Physician. So, I hope I would be able to testify to the burglar about God’s amazing grace and love. Then, I would tell my church family my sister’s need, as well as what happened with the burglar.

Most of the Christian ladies I know would unite to pray for the burglar’s soul as well as my sister’s health.

 

I hope I would definitely tell the burglar about God’s love and grace through Jesus Christ, and that he needs Jesus Christ.

I do hope the burglar repents. I have already told my husband that if anybody ever tries to hurt me, to not protect me.

He has not promised that he wouldn’t; that would be a difficult test for him.

My husband is a very strong man and says his nature is to protect through violence if necessary.

I told him to go against his nature if I am ever in danger of a human being/beings.

I told him I want him to pray for the people, and pray that if God wills, God will send His angels to protect us.

 

If God allows me to be tortured and killed, to suffer horrible pain for Jesus Christ, I am willing.

I just pray if that test ever comes, I will be strong enough to not give in to fleshly fears.

I pray God will help me to endure persecution out of love for Jesus Christ.

I pray I will never persecute or kill a human being, and I pray God makes me strong enough to endure any persecution without denying Jesus Christ.

 

When and if the test comes, I pray God makes me ready.

I think that is one reason why God has chosen for me not to be a Mom,

because it is much harder to suffer for Christ when one is a parent, especially if the children suffer too.

If you read the Fox’s book of Martyrs, some children suffered along with adult Christians during times of persecution.

That is the hardest: for little children and the helpless to suffer. :( 

 

“In terms of hate, it is not wrong to hate corruption and destruction.”

 

That is true. Corruption and destruction are not people though. They are actions.

 

“How could you not hate beings who spread corruption, malice, destruction and cruelty to kind/innocent people when you say you love these kind/innocent people? “

 

 

There is a Christian saying, “Hate the sin. Love the sinner.” That is how. One can hate sin yet love the sinner.

 

“Throughout the history of Islam in the context of our imams and prophet, they has shown us how to love. You can read about them and their actions extensively later on if you really seek truth and righteousness.”

 

Could you please link me to some? Thanks.

 

Peace be upon Jesus prophet of Allah the beneficent, peace be upon Muhammad SAW and his ahlul-bayt, only to Allah and to Him alone we worship and ask for assistance.

 

Jesus the Anointed King (Christ) does not need people to wish peace upon him. He gives peace to his faithful followers:

 

Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives.

Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.” – John 14:27 (NIV)

 

Peace and God bless you

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