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Christianlady

Why Christians Are Not To Avenge Jesus Christ

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Neither Qur’an 3:134 nor Qur’an 42:37 specifically mentions enemies, whereas Jesus (the Messiah/King) specifically mentions enemies in Matthew 5:44 and Luke 6:27.

 

Absolutely

 

Which means it is meant to include all people who need forgiveness.

How are mercy and forgiveness more useful in your opinion than love?

 

Plain common sense .

 

I may love my son a lot a real lot  but I do not always forgive him for his misdeeds.

 

Likewise,  I may not like someone but I can forgive him.

 

Forgiveness is far superior to love.

 

If I was given a choice between love & forgiveness, I'd choose forgiveness.

 

You can make your own choice, it won't change my choice.

 

Thank you for your time.

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Hello Christian Lady  

 

Jesus Christ loved his enemies and has the authority to call people out for their sins.

 

I have already addressed that point in my post #47.

 

Nothing more to add. 

 

Peace and God bless you and yours

Edited by baqar

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 I disagree. Love is just as useful and important as forgiveness and mercy. The reason I believe this is because God forgives and has mercy on us because He loves us.

 

You can disagree.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

I have already given you perfectly logical arguments in my post #71 why forgiveness if far superior to love.

 

If you still wish to disagree, I have no problems.

 

But it amounts to a gridlock and therefore the end of the discussion. 

 

And I have nothing to add. 

 

Cheers

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DON'T INSIST ON YOUR RIGHT OF WAY

 

Totally agree.

Many years ago the traffic situation got so bad in Canadian cities for pedestrians they decided to make new rules. One of these rules was for pedestrians wanting to cross the street would extend their arm out forward pointing across the street. Motorists would see it and stop, giving you the right of way.

I told my children not to rely on this because once you are laying on the street, looking like hamburger it's difficult to claim your right of way. 

Note the rule said motorists would "give" you the right of way.

I told my kids to look at the motorists eyes and make sure they saw you before crossing. When you have eye contact you will know what to do.

 

The same logic applies to all freedoms. Freedom is given, not taken.

 

These journalist who make these cartoons are taking advantage of the freedoms they are allowed. 

 

Baqar,

I know you've been waiting to hear the condemnation of the journalists for their "instigating" and the more it's on the news, the more I can read between the lines and it is blatant instigating. The journalists are saying they took a stand for this freedom of press, but to what extent they should be allowed is hard to gauge. 

The Muslim leaders in Calgary fully condemned the actions of the terrorists and didn't even mention their opinion of the cartoons.

The head of the Muslim social services for Canada said basically the same thing. She was critical of the journalists, but the reactions overshadowed the cartoons to the point the cartoons are meaningless to the larger crime. She mentioned that there should be other means for handling the provocation, and they will work on that. Her other suggestion to Muslims was to "change the channel" 

I never saw these cartoons. Most Canadian newspapers and TV refused to print the cartoons saying the same thing. They are meaningless compared to the terrorist acts. 

The downside to that is the average Canadian has no idea what made Muslims so angry.

 

I never liked the whole caricature idea, whether it be of religious leaders, political leaders, or anyone. It's a blatant mockery of the subject and usually a complete exaggeration of the situation. Sadly, the secular society has enjoyed it so it has evolved to a point past acceptable limits. Maybe it's time to start a movement to remove all caricature drawings from all media.

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But frankly, what I am looking for is for someone on the other side of the fence  to be honest and strong enough to say that freedom of expression is a hoax.  I could give you many examples of accepted limitations  in this freedom but I am sure you know many yourself. 

 

Indeed, there is no such thing as unlimited freedom of expression in the world and secondly, it is not a God-given right.

 

We cannot use it when it suits us. And when it doesn't suit us, we say "ah - but that was outrageous".

 

I hope you get the drift but I strongly believe that the press has assumed rights that do not belong to them.

 

Thanks for the comforting note but I am still looking for someone, among non-Muslims, to say to the cartoonists -  "stop this nonsense".

 

Not all countries work the same way. The cartoons in Europe are a part of a discussion about a free press. Not a free press in Iran but for democratic nations. Each nation make their own laws. The danish cartoons was an internal danish debate that Muslims abroad intreferred with. "Stop this nonsense" was, and still is heard by many non-muslims in europe. Others disagree. This is the freedom of speach that many countries have not yet obtained .

 

I did not personally believe the cartoons was the right way to discuss, but I believe we should have no law restrictions on how to discuss or freedom of speach. Only the speaker will be held responsible for wrong information, insults and things like that. By the countrys legal system, not by any fanatic Sharialaw agent.

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Hi Son,

Quote from Post 74:
I never liked the whole caricature idea, whether it be of religious leaders, political leaders, or anyone. It's a blatant mockery of the subject and usually a complete exaggeration of the situation. Sadly, the secular society has enjoyed it so it has evolved to a point past acceptable limits.

Response: --- Right on. ‘Newspaper comics’ can be funny as the ‘brunt of the jokes’ are usually directed towards one of the characters in the strip.
Cartoonists that use political and religious figures as the brunt of their distorted message, appeal to the kind of reader who feeds on criticism of others. --- While the readers may realize the cartoonists are pressing, or surpassing, the limits of honorable journalism, the reader is brought down to the level of thinking of the cartoonist.

Someone said, “You are what you think about,” and if your thinking is captivated by an image --- (a picture is worth a thousand words), --- then your character will be molded by what your mind dwells on.

While everyone condemns the terrorist ‘mindset’ that sees murder as their justice, --- the leaders of countries, who have themselves been the subject of distorted cartoons, --- now take the side of the cartoonists in supporting ‘so-called’ freedom of speech.--- They are so swept up with that agenda that no one takes time to ‘slap the wrists’ of the cartoonists.
--- The end result: --- The impression is given that they are all on the side of the cartoonists, regardless of what the cartoons are.
What happens if someone mentions --- “A gun” --- or “A bomb” --- on an airplane today?
Yet that is ‘freedom of speech,’ is it not?

When Cartoonists choose to ridicule Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Pope, the Trinity, or any religion, --- they show their individual disrespect for God, and for all of us who believe in God, and His Ultimate Jurisdiction over us all.

 

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The instigators are in the wrong just as much as the terrorists are.

 

For one thing, the terrorists are acting upon provocation while the cartoonists are deliberately trying to get them worked up. 

 

In short, I thank you for your concern but I am still a little put-off because you and others  should have shown at least some condemnation for the instigators.

 

Each time something happens, no one takes the instigators to task, which is indeed very sad.  Everyone accepts their right to free speech, which I just cannot accept, especially in the matter of religion.

Do you really mean that drawing cartoons is just as wrong as killing humans? And that the cartoonwriters deliberate triggered the terrorists to commit murder?

The drawers seem to have been aware of the risk. Who would run such a risk not being convinced what he did was right? We cant forbid individual convictions. Everybody is entitled to have one.

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When Cartoonists choose to ridicule Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Pope, the Trinity, or any religion, --- they show their individual disrespect for God, and for all of us who believe in God, and His Ultimate Jurisdiction over us all.

 

Not only cartoonists show disrespect to religions. Religions sometimes show disrespect to other religions. I have experienced disrespect to my beliefs. I am sure you and many others have experienced this too. But is what I feel as ridicule and disrespect always meant as such?

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 Which means it is meant to include all people who need forgiveness.

 

 

Hello Peaceloving,

 

All people who need forgiveness is cool.

Did Muhammad forgive all his enemies?

 

 

I may love my son a lot a real lot  but I do not always forgive him for his misdeeds.

 

My Mom loves me and has forgiven all my misdeeds. While she appreciates me asking her forgiveness, she has always forgiven me, sometimes even when I have not asked for her forgiveness. While I’ve never asked her why she forgives me, I think she would tell me she forgives me because she loves me. I should ask her. I know I don't deserve her forgiveness, and I am so grateful for both her love and her forgiveness.

 

I don't deserve God's forgiveness, but God has forgiven me of all my misdeeds through Jesus Christ. I am forever grateful to Him for His love and forgiveness!!!

 

 

Likewise,  I may not like someone but I can forgive him.

 

Understood.

 

Forgiveness is far superior to love.

 

 I disagree, because love is a reason to forgive.

Why do you believe God forgives you of your misdeeds?

 

If I was given a choice between love & forgiveness, I'd choose forgiveness.

 

Thank God, He loves and He forgives and gives mercy.

We don’t need to choose between love and forgiveness.

God gives us both: His love and His forgiveness, Praise His holy name!!!

 

You can make your own choice, it won't change my choice.

 

 

Why do you need to choose between love and forgiveness? Why can’t you have both and give both?

If you do not wish to respond, it’s ok. I am asking because I’m curious.

 

Thank you for your time.

 

 

No worries. Thank you for your time as well.

 

Peace and God bless you

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Hello Christian Lady
 

Did Muhammad forgive all his enemies?

 

Your question is unseemly and confrontational but  the answer is "yes".

 

In any case, it is hardly plausible that God will forgive everyone. The likes of Hitler and Saddam will never be forgiven.  

 

If you believe otherwise, it is OK with me.

 

But I will never believe in that sort of thing. 

 

My Mom loves me and has forgiven all my misdeeds. 

 

Good but every mum doesn't necessarily forgive every child. 

 

 God has forgiven me of all my misdeeds through Jesus Christ. 

 

Good but Hitler cannot be so sure as you are.   

 

Why do you believe God forgives you of your misdeeds?

 

I don't believe that God forgives all misdeeds.  

 

He has punished me many times in my life.

 

I pray for His forgiveness but He may punish me again in this life and I hope not, but may be again in the Hereafter.

 

And believe you me, I am interested as a first priority, in His forgiveness, not His love.

 

Love is a reason to forgive.

 

Yes, sure it is. 

 

Love is indeed a reason to forgive but not a guarantee.

 

There are lots of parents I know who have never forgiven their children.

 

You may not know of any but I do.

 

We don’t need  to choose between love and forgiveness.

 

True.

 

But if I was given a choice between love and  forgiveness, I would choose the latter.

 

For example, if I have wronged my employee or my neighbour, I would rather have their forgiveness than their love.

 

God gives us both: His love and His forgiveness.

 

To some, but not to everyone.   Certainly not to the likes of Hitler and Saddam.

 

I am asking because I’m curious.

 

And that is why I have responded.

 

Peace and all the best. 

Edited by PeaceLoving

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Hello Christian Lady

 

Did Muhammad forgive all his enemies?

 

Not only did our Prophet forgive his enemies, even all our Imams did.

 

After all that they went through at Karbala, our third Imam, Imam Husain instructed his distraught sisters, who survived him, not to pray for evil to befall the enemy.  

Read the first post in this thread:-

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234920152-tragedy-of-karbala-for-jewishchristian-friends/ 

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Your question is unseemly and confrontational but  the answer is "yes".

 

Hello Peaceloving,

 

When Muslims and Atheists ask me if Jesus Christ forgave all of his enemies, it doesn’t bother me.

Any question about Jesus Christ I welcome because I love him and love to write/talk about him!

Why do you think my question about Muhammad forgiving all his enemies is unseemly and confrontational?

What questions about Muhammad do you consider to be seemly and not confrontational?

 

I have recently learned that many Sunni Muslims believe Muhammad did not forgive all his enemies.

It is interesting to see the differences in Sunni and Shia Islam.

I am sure Muslims think the differences between Catholics and Protestants are interesting too.

 

In any case, it is hardly plausible that God will forgive everyone. The likes of Hitler and Saddam will never be forgiven.  

 

God does not forgive everyone, no. God commands people through Jesus Christ to forgive  (Luke 6:37).

God does not obey Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ’s followers are to obey Jesus Christ (John 14:15).

God has forgiven me of my sins through Jesus Christ and He commands me through Jesus Christ to forgive others, and love others.

 

Corrie ten Boom for example is an amazing lady who experienced first hand forgiving Nazis

who had hurt her and been the cause of her father dying in jail and sister dying in a concentration camp.

All they had been doing was helping rescue Jewish people from the Nazis.

She writes about how hard it was to forgive the Nazis in her autobiography, The Hiding Place,

and how God gave her the ability to do so through His Spirit!

 

If you believe otherwise, it is OK with me.

But I will never believe in that sort of thing. 

 

Freedom of religion is very important! It’s a shame not everyone has freedom of religion.

 

Can you believe Turkey is now allowing the first church to be built in her lands in around 90 years?!!! That's so exciting!!! I wonder how many mosques have been built in the USA during the last 90 years? I should google that.

 

Good but every mum doesn't necessarily forgive every child. 

 

 Horribly, some mothers do not love their children and even abuse their children. That’s hard for me to understand.

 

 

Good but Hitler cannot be so sure as you are.   

 

True. Hitler disobeyed Jesus Christ and hated Jesus’ people the Jews.

Hitler, while claiming to be a Christian, actually seemed to be following norse gods instead of following Jesus Christ.

Not everyone who says he is a Christian actually is one, same as I am sure not everyone who says he is a Muslim actually is one.

 

 

I don't believe that God forgives all misdeeds.  

 

He has punished me many times in my life.

I pray for His forgiveness but He may punish me again in this life and I hope not, but may be again in the Hereafter.

And believe you me, I am interested as a first priority, in His forgiveness, not His love.

 

 

Do you think God does not love you? 

 

 

There are lots of parents I know who have never forgiven their children.

 

 That reminds me of this verse:

For my father and my mother have forsaken me,

    but the Lord will take me in.” – Psalm 27:10 (ESV)

 

You may not know of any but I do.

 

I know of parents who do not love Jesus Christ who have broken marriages and broken relationships with their children.

They turn to alcohol and some even to drugs for comfort.

My Mom is a social worker who is dealing with such cases.

I have told her and my Dad so many times thank you for loving Jesus Christ and for loving each other!!!

My sisters and I had awesome childhoods thanks to our parents’ love for Jesus Christ and for loving each other.

 

But if I was given a choice between love and  forgiveness, I would choose the latter.

 

For example, if I have wronged my employee or my neighbour, I would rather have their forgiveness than their love.

 

 

 

 I still don’t see the reason to choose between love and forgiveness.

To me, they go together, like the ingredients of baklava.  (I love baklava!!!) :)

 

 

To some, but not to everyone.   Certainly not to the likes of Hitler and Saddam.

 

 

 True. Hitler and Saddam obviously did not love God and did not obey Jesus Christ.

 

 

And that is why I have responded.

 

Peace and all the best.

 

Thanks for replying!

 

Peace and God bless you and your family

Hello Christian Lady

 

 

Not only did our Prophet forgive his enemies, even all our Imams did.

 

After all that they went through at Karbala, our third Imam, Imam Husain instructed his distraught sisters, who survived him, not to pray for evil to befall the enemy.  

Read the first post in this thread:-

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234920152-tragedy-of-karbala-for-jewishchristian-friends/

 

Hello Baqar,

 

Did Muhammad forgive Asma bint Marwan, Kab bin al-Ashraf, Abu Jahl, Utba bin Rabi'a, Shaiba bin Rabi'a, Al-Walid bin 'Utba, Umaiya bin Khalif, and Uqba bin Al Mu'i?  I ask because many Sunni Muslims believe that Muhammad did not forgive them. Do Shia Muslims believe differently? What do Shia Muslims believe about what happened to the people listed above who were enemies of Muhammad?

 

Is Imam Husein the grandson of Muhammad? That is beautiful that he instructed his sisters not to pray evil for the enemy. That follows Jesus Christ's teaching in Luke 6:27-37. I will go read the link you suggested now.

 

Peace and God bless you

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Did Muhammad forgive Asma bint Marwan, Kab bin al-Ashraf, Abu Jahl, Utba bin Rabi'a, Shaiba bin Rabi'a, Al-Walid bin 'Utba, Umaiya bin Khalif, and Uqba bin Al Mu'i?

Dear Christian Lady

If you read post #8 in the thread

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235027636-especially-for-christianlady-understanding-islam/

I told you that Islamic history and hadeeth have been greatly mangled.

That is why many Muslims have those impressions of the Prophet.

In any case, you should also understand that personal forgiveness is different from forgiveness of crimes against the state.

Just because a person is forgiving does not mean he has the right to forgive an enemy of the state.

So it is possible that he did take some action against them but details are all contaminated.

There is, however, evidence to believe that he was the most forgiving man you can think of.

The best way to understand the Prophet is not through his biography but the life and times of his progeny, the Imams.

Is Imam Hussain the grandson of Muhammad?

Yes

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234920152-tragedy-of-karbala-for-jewishchristian-friends/

Peace & blessings

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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Hi Christian Lady

 

Is Imam Husein the grandson of Muhammad? 

 

Yes, he was.

 

And he was the younger son of Imam Ali and Lady Fatima. 

 

The entire family suffered immensely after the death of the Prophet for at least 250 years.


In another thread, you have asked if the killers of Imam Hussain were truly Muslim? 

 

Do you think a "true Muslim"  would even think of killing the Prophet's grandson and other members of his family and put the surviving women and children into prison?

 

Do you think it is possible for a "true Muslim" to kill a six month baby - who had had no food or water for four days?

 

There are very few true Muslims in the world even today.

 

And there never were many.

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Actually Islam does have a huge focus on forgiveness and mercy. But Jesus (as) faced a very different situation than Muhammad ( saws ). You see he never had to govern. Practical issues of justice a D of war and peace.were not incumbent upon him to address he needed only to address the spiritual issues and personal values.

Muhammad ( saws ) did not have thus luxury. Well he did not but only for a few years. After that he became the head of state. He was a Prophet like unto Moses(as) . Moses ( as ) had to lead and govern. When he saw the people worshipping the idol he had them killed by God's command. The same God of Jesu (as).so the difference he is not in principles UT in circumstances. Muhammad ( saws ) also told us to love our neighbors as does the Qur'an. Surah Al Baqarah Ayat 177 is an example as is Surah Al Man and there are other places as well. Mercy is encouraged even in times of necessary war.

History shows us that Christian are just as prone to war and violence as Muslims. The crusades and the inquisition are examples as is slavery a D the ku klux klan. We are humans and we get angry, hurt and frustrated. Islam deals with these issues and encourage patience such is Surah Al Asr where it says that all mankind is lost if we do not exhort one another to patience.

Murder is condemned by the Qur'an. So some of what you see here is not necessarily what Islam calls for but the frustration of the human heart that we feel when senseless violence is committed in the name of our beautiful faith against those who have chosen to ridicule and revile it.

Peace be upon Jesus and those who follow his teachings. And may Allah guide us all

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Hello Baqar,

 

Oops. I apologize. I forgot to number my questions.

 

I told you that Islamic history and hadeeth have been greatly mangled.

 

1. Do you believe the Sunni Muslims mangled Islamic history?
 

That is why many Muslims have those impressions of the Prophet.

In any case, you should also understand that personal forgiveness is different from forgiveness of crimes against the state.

Just because a person is forgiving does not mean he has the right to forgive an enemy of the state.

 

 

2. Do you believe that a person insulting Muhammad is an enemy of the state?

 

So it is possible that he did take some action against them but details are all contaminated.

There is, however, evidence to believe that he was the most forgiving man you can think of.

 

3. Did Muhammad forgive Asma bint Marwan?

 

4. Did Muhammad forgive Kab bin al-Ashraf?

 

5. Did Muhammad forgive Abu Jahl, Utba bin Rabi'a, Shaiba bin Rabi'a, Al-Walid bin 'Utba, Umaiya bin Khalif, and Uqba bin Al Mu'i? 

 

The best way to understand the Prophet is not through his biography but the life and times of his progeny, the Imams.

 

6. Why do you think that the best way of understanding Muhammad is not through studying his biography but rather through studying Imams?

 

7. Are the Imams' lives more important than Muhammad's life in Shia Islam?

 

Thanks so much for answering my questions. I am learning a lot more about Shia Islam and how it is different from Sunni Islam.

 

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady

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Hello Peaceloving,

 

Do you think a "true Muslim" would even think of killing the Prophet's grandson and other members of his family and put the surviving women and children into prison?

Do you think it is possible for a "true Muslim" to kill a six month baby - who had had no food or water for four days?

 

I have Sunni friends who think that other Sunnis (the Islamic State and the Taliban) are not truly Muslim and that Shia Muslims are not truly Muslim, as well as that Ahmadiyya Muslims are not truly Muslim, but that they themselves are truly Muslim. The Islamic State seems to think that only those who support "Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi" are truly Muslim.  For a person who does not follow Muhammad and the Qur'an, all the bloodshed between Muslims who say the other groups are not truly Muslim is confusing.

 

As a Christian, I believe that a true follower of Jesus Christ obeys his commands. "Christians" who kill or commit violence against each other or Non-Christians are disobedient to the Christ (our King) and are either not truly Christian, or are very disobedient Christians who will be punished by God for their disobedience.

 

I know Muhammad did not tell Muslims to kill each other, but it seems like Muslim groups fight each oher anyways.

 

There are very few true Muslims in the world even today.

 

And there never were many.

 

What is your definition of a true Muslim please?

Thank you

 

Peace and God bless you

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Hello IQRA07,

 

Actually Islam does have a huge focus on forgiveness and mercy. But Jesus faced a very different situation than Muhammad ( saws ). You see he never had to govern.

 

Jesus is the Messiah. Messiah means Anointed One, the King on the throne of King David forever, fulfilling 1 Chronicles 17:11-15; Psalm 2:6-7; Psalm 89:26-28, and Isaiah 9:6-7. Jesus is the King (Luke 1:32-33). He deliberately did not govern because he had to first fulfill other prophecies concerning him, including Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53.

 

Some Jews tried to make Jesus King, but Jesus deliberately did not take the position, because it was not the right time:

 

"After the people saw the sign Jesus performed, they began to say, ‘Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.’ Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself." - John 6:14-15 (ESV)

 

Later when he was arrested, he could have asked the Father for angels to come down from Heaven and fight against his enemies, but he wanted to fulfill Scripture:

 

“And behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his ear.  Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?  But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”  At that hour Jesus said to the crowds, “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me? Day after day I sat in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me.  But all this has taken place that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples left him and fled.” – Matthew 26:51-56 (ESV)

 

When Jesus Christ returns, he will govern, fulfilling Psalm 2 and the other prophecies concerning him.

 

Practical issues of justice a D of war and peace.were not incumbent upon him to address he needed only to address the spiritual issues and personal values.

 

Actually, Jesus Christ promoted peace and discouraged war, as accounted in Matthew 26:51-56. In an earlier occasion, when questioned about giving taxes to the Romans who were oppressing his people the Jews, Jesus Christ said: “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.” – Matthew 22:21 (ESV)

 

Jesus Christ did not encourage his people the Jews to fight the Romans who were oppressing them.

 


Muhammad ( saws ) did not have thus luxury. Well he did not but only for a few years. After that he became the head of state. He was a Prophet like unto Moses(as) . Moses ( as ) had to lead and govern.

 

Jesus Christ is the prophet like Moses (John 1:45; John 5:46; Luke 24:27; Luke 24:44; Acts 3:19-26). The prophet like Moses is to come from the brothers of Israel (Deuteronomy 18:15-19). God puts His words Jesus’ mouth (Deuteronomy 18:18; John 14:24); an angel did not bring Jesus Christ revelations. God spoke to Moses face to face (Exodus 33:11).

 

When he saw the people worshipping the idol

he had them killed by God's command. The same God of Jesu .so the difference he is not in principles UT in circumstances. Muhammad ( saws ) also told us to love our neighbors as does the Qur'an. Surah Al Baqarah Ayat 177 is an example as is Surah Al Man and there are other places as well. Mercy is encouraged even in times of necessary war.

 

The Qur’an also says, “Fight those who do not have faith in Allah nor [believe] in the Last Day, nor forbid what Allah and His Apostle have forbidden, nor practise the true religion, from among those who were given the Book, until they pay the tribute out of hand, degraded.” – Qur’an 9:29 http://al-quran.info/#9:29

 

I am assuming this includes neighbors who did not have faith in Allah and did not do the rest of what is listed in the verse.

What do you believe concerning Qur'an 9:29?

 

History shows us that Christian are just as prone to war and violence as Muslims. The crusades and the inquisition are examples as is slavery a D the ku klux klan.

 

People who say they are Christians yet disobey Jesus Christ’s commands to love one’s neighbor as oneself (Matthew 22:39) and love enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37) are like people who say they are vegetarians yet eat beef.

 

True followers of Jesus Christ obey Jesus Christ’s commands and his example. Jesus Christ did not order the Crusades. Rather, he ordered his followers to love and to make disciples (Matthew 28:18-20). Jesus Christ did not order hatred against people groups. Rather, God united Jews and Gentiles (Acts 10) through Jesus Christ!

 

 

We are humans and we get angry, hurt and frustrated. Islam deals with these issues and encourage patience such is Surah Al Asr where it says that all mankind is lost if we do not exhort one another to patience.

 

Jesus Christ promises the Holy Spirit to those who obey him (John chapters 14-16; Acts 2). God’s Holy Spirit helps us control our emotions and love people who are unlovable. With God, nothing is impossible!

 

Murder is condemned by the Qur'an. So some of what you see here is not necessarily what Islam calls for but the frustration of the human heart that we feel when senseless violence is committed in the name of our beautiful faith against those who have chosen to ridicule and revile it.

Peace be upon Jesus and those who follow his teachings. And may Allah guide us all

 

Jesus Christ says the following about those are insulted (which includes ridicule) for his name’s sake:

 

“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.  Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”

-Matthew 5:11-12 (ESV)

 

Thank you for your comments and the interesting discussion.

 

Jesus Christ, by the way, gives peace. He does not need peace wished upon him. He says,

 

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." - John 14:27 (ESV)

 

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady

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Hi Christian Lady

 

 

1. Do you believe the Sunni Muslims mangled Islamic history?

 

2. Do you believe that a person insulting Muhammad is an enemy of the state?

 

3. Did Muhammad forgive Asma bint Marwan?

 

4. Did Muhammad forgive Kab bin al-Ashraf?

 

5. Did Muhammad forgive Abu Jahl, Utba bin Rabi'a, Shaiba bin Rabi'a, Al-Walid bin 'Utba, Umaiya bin Khalif, and Uqba bin Al Mu'i? 

 

 

6. Why do you think that the best way of understanding Muhammad is not through studying his biography but rather through studying Imams?

 

7. Are the Imams' lives more important than Muhammad's life in Shia Islam?

 

 

 

Could you please ask your questions in that one thread we set up for you rather than all over the place ?

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235027636-especially-for-christianlady-understanding-islam/

 

I am answering these for you now but I will not have the time to look around in everywhere for your questions.

 

1. All sorts of people distorted history. It is a very complicated subject.

2. Yes

3. 4. & 5. Yes

6. Because the biographies of the Imams have not been distorted to the same extent.

7. Of course not. 

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As for 3. 4. & 5. please note that a Muslim judge or a prophet is not allowed to forgive a crime against the state or against another individual  until that person has been compensated. Crimes against the state or  its allied bodies cannot be brushed away as if nothing happened.

 

Forgiveness by a prophet is only allowed in matters of personal offence.  

 

There is not a single personal offence that the Prophet took to task. 

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Hello Baqar,

 

Hi Christian Lady

 

 

 

Could you please ask your questions in that one thread we set up for you rather than all over the place ?

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235027636-especially-for-christianlady-understanding-islam/

 

I am answering these for you now but I will not have the time to look around in everywhere for your questions.

 

 

I will not bother you with any more questions, then.

 

1. All sorts of people distorted history. It is a very complicated subject.

2. Yes

3. 4. & 5. Yes

6. Because the biographies of the Imams have not been distorted to the same extent.

7. Of course not.

 

 

 

Thank you for sharing your perspective of Islam with me.

 

Peace and may God greatly bless you and your loved ones

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Hi Ethics,

Quote from Post 9:
What kind of a God who was sent to guide us, tells us to love our enemies, while He himself condemns us all to hell or makes all existing beings inherit an original sin? That in itself is irrational let alone the concept behind loving our enemies. Therefore this God that you claim goes by such unjust rules is unjust and evil. That is not a good thing. God who is suppose to be merciful wont send prophets to tell us how we are suppose to be, yet the prophets themselves work in hypocrisy. God whom you claiming is loving right? Is that love? To unjustly condemn all non christians to hell? To give someone who is not responsible of sin, a sin to carry on their shoulders?

Response: --- Sorry to be so slow in responding to this, but I understand what you are saying. --- That Almighty God is not fair. He can be loving, --- but He doesn’t seem to be consistent when He keeps the burden of ‘original sin’ over our heads, to condemn us, if we don’t respond to His love, --- ON HIS TERMS.
The Scripture teaches from the beginning that God loved His creation, but God is also just, and acts in ‘justice,’ where His love and mercy are rejected.

It seems that each time the subject of ‘original sin’ comes up it is a kind of ‘blame thing’ against Christians, as though they invented ‘original sin.’
It is in the Book of Genesis, and also in Surah 7, which shows that our original ‘parents’ were disobedient to God, as it says in Surah 7:
20 Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them --- he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever."
21 And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.
22 So by deceit he (Satan) brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"
23 They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."
24 (God) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood, - for a time."

Adam and Eve repented of their sin of disobedience, but they couldn’t undo what they did by listening to Satan, --- rather than to God’s instructions.
--- A carpenter can drive a nail in a board in a wrong place. He can pull the nail out, but he can’t remove the hole.

We didn’t ask to be born, did we? --- And many wonder why we are here, and why we are responsible to God, and how it is that He is in charge of our destiny?
--- These questions are answered in the Scriptures, but are not always accepted. --- I can give you a short version.

We all believe in Almighty God, the Creater and Sustainer of all things. We want to believe that He was perfect and His original Creation was perfect.
--- And in the beginning, even before the creation of man on earth, God created different orders of angels to serve Him. --- They were holy and obedient and would love God because God loved them, as they were programmed that way. --- Then God created the Cherubim angels which were an order of angels, to whom God gave ‘free will.’
--- His desire was to create beings with a ‘free will’ that God might love, and who would love Him in return, --- from their own ‘will and desire.’

This worked well for a while, but one angel used his ‘free will’ to become proud and he began to rebel against God.
I won’t give you all the details, but I will tell you what the Scripture says about this one in the interwoven prophesy in Ezekiel 28:
11 Thus says the Lord GOD: “You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty You were in Eden, the garden of God;
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

--- This is enough to say that this ‘anointed cherub’ had been created ‘perfect in all his ways,’ --- TILL INIQUITY WAS FOUND IN HIM.

The Scripture goes on to say that this one was cast out of heaven, and a new ‘anointed cherub’ replaced him, --- but this time, one who had been ‘tested and found faithful.’

From this ancient Scripture we can realize two things;
1. That God didn’t create sin, --- but created all things in perfection.
2. That one who had been created perfect, --- but with ‘free will,’ developed ‘pride’ within himself, and began to rebel against God.

According to my Bible Dictionary, this ‘show of pride’ was the first sin in the universe, and this one that rebelled was called Satan, which means, ‘adversary.’ --- So Satan became the ‘adversary’ of God.

Later, God created Adam and Eve, again with ‘free will,’ --- but with instructions for them, how to live in the Garden of Eden. --- Again this worked for awhile, --- but this same adversary deceived them, and caused them to be disobedient to God.
--- They were guilty, --- they were put out of the Garden, but after repentance, God re-established them on earth, to live there and grow their own food, rather than have everything provided. --- And on earth they would die, just as we all will.

Since Adam and Eve had sinned, though they repented, this stain of sin was on their children and basically came on all mankind. As it says in Romans 5:
12 Therefore, just as through one man, sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, --- even so through (Jesus), one Man’s righteous act, the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

This is saying that because of Adam’s offense, called sin, --- we all have the same sinful nature, and there is not one of us who can say we have never sinned. A verse says, “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.”

You don’t have to believe this, as we do, if you don’t want to, --- but you can go directly to God, and ask Him to reveal it to you.
It is in the OT, --- so you can’t blame Christians for believing it, since we follow the New Covenant (Testament), where Jesus taught us to “Love God and love our neighbor,”
--- But we can’t do that from our natural being, either. --- We must ask God to forgive us, --- and receive His love in our heart, before we can show it to others.

Really, the argument is with God, so we have to go to Him for answers.

Placid

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Sigh......

Jesus (as) did NOT govern . Not once not ever. The reasons are irrelevant. He did not. I am not putting him down for not governing. That was not his mission. Allah has sent different people with different missions.

Jesus (as) accomplished his mission perfectly but that mission did NOT include governing.

He did not have to levy taxes or negotiate trade deals or treaties. He made pronouncements when he saw fit. Nothing wrong with that.

But his life was NOTHING like that of King David (as) or Muhammad (saws) or even Moses (as). He led only a small band of followers. Sure other people listened to him but they were not under his rule.

Jesus (as) never had an army or the type of widespread support necessary to claim a kingdom as such and I doubt he would have wanted to. His situation was therefore different and my point stands

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Wait so God tells you to love your enemies but God  Himself doesnt love us enough to rid us of original sin (or blame us of the sins of others) or condemn all non christians to hell? I find that irrational and contradictory.

 

To say you are suppose to love the people who kills others unjustly is evil and just clearly wrong.

 

you misunderstand christian teaching. there is a whole theology behind original sin and the concept of Hell.

briefly, Christianity does not condemn non-christians to hell for one, quite the opposite actually.

secondly, love your enemies does not mean literally "love your enemies". on the contrary evil is to be fought against and destroyed.

we dont rely on the Bible as our Sole Authority for us Christians. (Catholics and Orthodox).

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Where have you been all this while, brother  Shreek? We have missed you.  For once, I thought you had had enough

 

love your enemies does not mean literally "love your enemies". 

 

I had long hoped to hear that from a Christian perspective. I think your statement makes perfect sense. 

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Where have you been all this while, brother  Shreek? We have missed you.  For once, I thought you had had enough

 

 

I had long hoped to hear that from a Christian perspective. I think your statement makes perfect sense.

Hello brother, no I have been busy with work and family commitments.

Further to the 'love your enemies' reference, the Catholic Church actually has a whole doctrine on defending and fighting enemies, enemies of religion and the state etc. it is called the "Just War" Doctrine. Alas we don't have armies anymore to implement such doctrines......ahhh the good old days.

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secondly, love your enemies does not mean literally "love your enemies". on the contrary evil is to be fought against and destroyed.

we dont rely on the Bible as our Sole Authority for us Christians. (Catholics and Orthodox).

 

Hello Shreek,

 

Sadly, many "Christians" have tried to fight and destroy evil, yet end up killing thousands of people. For example, the Crusaders tried to destroy evil, and ended up killing thousands of Muslims, Jews, and other groups of Christians. This is unacceptable and sad, and is what happens when people think killing human enemies will destroy evil.

 

For example, IS thinks that by killing all who disagree with their Islamic ideals, that they are destroying evil. Are they destroying evil? Nope. They are killing and hurting thousands of people :( including Muslims who believe Islam differently than they do.

 

When Jesus Christ encountered people with unclean/evil spirits, did he kill them? Nope. He healed them, casting out the evil spirits.  He did not kill anybody, but rather healed people. His followers should follow his example in not killing anybody, but rather should obey his commands:

 

 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

that you may be children of your Father in heaven.

He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?

And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Matthew 5:43-48 (NIV)

 

 “But to you who are listening I say:

Love your enemies,

do good to those who hate you,

bless those who curse you,

pray for those who mistreat you.

If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also.

If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them.

Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.

Do to others as you would have them do to you.

 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.

And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that.

And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you?

Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full.

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back.

Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High,

because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

- Luke 6:27-36 (NIV)

 

If Christians had obeyed Jesus Christ's commands to love enemies over the years, thousands of Muslims, Jews and other people would not have been killed by "Christians." The world would be a better place.

 

Peace and God bless you

Hello IARA07,

 

Sigh......

Jesus (as) did NOT govern . Not once not ever. The reasons are irrelevant. He did not. I am not putting him down for not governing. That was not his mission. Allah has sent different people with different missions.

Jesus (as) accomplished his mission perfectly but that mission did NOT include governing.

He did not have to levy taxes or negotiate trade deals or treaties. He made pronouncements when he saw fit. Nothing wrong with that.

But his life was NOTHING like that of King David (as) or Muhammad (saws) or even Moses (as). He led only a small band of followers. Sure other people listened to him but they were not under his rule.

Jesus (as) never had an army or the type of widespread support necessary to claim a kingdom as such and I doubt he would have wanted to. His situation was therefore different and my point stands

 

Jesus Christ does govern.  His followers are responsble to obey him, so even though you can't see him, he still governs.

 

The Jewish people who reject(ed) Jesus as the Messiah (Christ) however do not believe he governs, but he does. When he returns as the victorous King, people will see that Jesus was governing ever since he began to give commands. His physical absence does not mean he no longer governs, but rather that He will give out rewards for obedience and punishment for disobedience when he physically returns. He is with us even now, through the Spirit God gives us (John 14-16; Acts 1-2).

 

I am curious; what do you believe Christ means?

 

I have to go now cause today is a busy day, but if God wills I hope to answer your reply in more detail later.

 

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady

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Hello brother Shreek

 

 

Could you please give some details on the "Just War" doctrine?   Thanks 

 

it is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 2309

briefly; paragraph 2309, lists four strict conditions for "legitimate defence by military force":
 
* the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
* all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
* there must be serious prospects of success;
* the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated (the power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition).
 
you can also read more here:

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* the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain

 

Hi Shreek   I am not trying to be critical. So please don't take it as an offence.  But I am curious because I find some problems in these rules.

 

Let us say, if country X bombs country Y and destroys lots of cars and aeroplanes, then since the cars and aeroplanes can be repaired,  the damage cannot be described as lasting.   

So a reprisal attack by Y on X will not be a just war.  Is that right?

 

* there must be serious prospects of success;

 

If a powerful country X  invades a  weaker country Y and the soldiers of  X rape many women in Y, then because Y is not strong, the prospect of success is poor.

 

So a war by Y on X will not be a just war.  Is that right?

Edited by PeaceLoving

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Sigh......

Jesus (as) did NOT govern . Not once not ever. The reasons are irrelevant. He did not.

 

Hello IQRA07,

 

Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ?

 

If yes, what do you think the Christ does?

 

Christ = Messiah = Anointed One = King.

 

Jesus is the King on the throne of King David forever:

(I boldened some in the verse below.)

 

But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end. - Luke 1:30-33 (NIV)

 

I am not putting him down for not governing. That was not his mission. Allah has sent different people with different missions.

Jesus (as) accomplished his mission perfectly but that mission did NOT include governing.

 

 

Jesus' mission as the Christ is to reign on the throne of David forever, with an unending kingdom.

 

He did not have to levy taxes or negotiate trade deals or treaties. He made pronouncements when he saw fit. Nothing wrong with that.

But his life was NOTHING like that of King David (as) or Muhammad (saws) or even Moses (as). He led only a small band of followers. Sure other people listened to him but they were not under his rule.

 

 

God used both Moses and King David to prophecy concerning Jesus. His "band of followers" has grown and will continue to grow until Jesus Christ returns!

 

                          

Jesus (as) never had an army or the type of widespread support necessary to claim a kingdom as such and I doubt he would have wanted to. His situation was therefore different and my point stands

 

 

Jesus Christ actually does have an army. All he had to do was ask the Father, and angels would have completely destroyed his enemies:  (I boldened some in the verses below.)

 

Jesus replied, “Do what you came for, friend."

Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.

With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword,

drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him,

“for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 

 

Do you think I cannot call on my Father,

and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 

But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?

- Matthew 26:50-54 (NIV)

 

When Jesus Christ returns, he returns with his army of angels.

 

 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." - Matthew 24:30-31 (NIV)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”

 

He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

 

“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear." - Matthew 13:36-43 (NIV)

 

Angels are a much better army than humans.

 

Peace and God bless you

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