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Mithrandir

Does This Bother You?

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(bismillah)

Okay, I've been noticing a couple of things that have become quite common in the Muslim Community--in the East and the West. One makes me laugh because it's just super funny, and the other really grinds my gears.

 

Let's start with something lighthearted.

 

Ever been to the mall and suddenly this absolutely stunning woman just walks past you? She has enough perfume to asphyxiate a Komodo Dragon to death, her clothes makes Britney Spears look modest, the amount of make up on her face just makes you uncomfortable and her hair couldn't be more exposed. Yeah, that's happened to all of us but here's the ironic bit. Her parents are following her around--her mother is covered head to toe in a niqab and her father is wearing a long thobe with an imamah to top it all of. Both of them have an expression of such pride on their faces, as if the contrast between their modesty and their daughter's immodesty was a good thing. It's sort of sad, but it's also worth a chuckle.

 

Now the part that's not so funny.

 

Whenever I travel abroad and hit the beach, I sometimes see hijabis wearing the most uncomfortable clothes to protect their modesty(My Allah bless them) and then their husbands pop up wearing these super small shorts and super tight T-shirts. I mean seriously, what's that about? I always wear full pants, and loose T-shirts(it's not that bad, trust me) so I'm not being a hypocrite here. What annoys me is that it's okay for these men to boss their wives around and make them wear layer upon layer of black clothing in the middle of June and force them on to the beach and they themselves dress so immodestly. So woman must be perfectly Islamic but man can just put on his shorts and play volleyball in public because he is a man? I know Islam prohibits this kind of immodest behavior but many of us don't pay attention to these types of situations.

 

Has this ever caught your attention? Does it bother you? How would you recommend going about remedying this problem?

 

Salam.

Shahreem.

 

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What is the intention behind you wearing a T-shirt, we fat men have found modesty to be a good excuse to cover our soft bellies. :D

rofl, I just think Tees are comfy. I'm okay up top, my fat's all on my thighs xD

 

I miss eating chicken :(

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Regarding the first case, it's none of our business. If the girl wants to wear and look this way, she's free to do so. Her origins and cultural background aren't supposed to stop her from wearing how she wants.

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I just think it's strange when the wife (and daughters sometimes) are dressed elegantly and modestly and the man looks like he just came from the gym, but it's none of my business.

Men are supposed to be covered from navel to knee. Most men choose to wear more due to cultural expectations.

I've never seen proud modest parents with a scantily clad girl.

I've never seen a hijabi besides myself at the beach or pool. I have a custom made swimsuit, and my husband and sons wear shorts that go to knee and a t-shirt.

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(bismillah)

Okay, I've been noticing a couple of things that have become quite common in the Muslim Community--in the East and the West. One makes me laugh because it's just super funny, and the other really grinds my gears.

 

Let's start with something lighthearted.

 

Ever been to the mall and suddenly this absolutely stunning woman just walks past you? She has enough perfume to asphyxiate a Komodo Dragon to death, her clothes makes Britney Spears look modest, the amount of make up on her face just makes you uncomfortable and her hair couldn't be more exposed. Yeah, that's happened to all of us but here's the ironic bit. Her parents are following her around--her mother is covered head to toe in a niqab and her father is wearing a long thobe with an imamah to top it all of. Both of them have an expression of such pride on their faces, as if the contrast between their modesty and their daughter's immodesty was a good thing. It's sort of sad, but it's also worth a chuckle.

 

Now the part that's not so funny.

 

Whenever I travel abroad and hit the beach, I sometimes see hijabis wearing the most uncomfortable clothes to protect their modesty(My Allah bless them) and then their husbands pop up wearing these super small shorts and super tight T-shirts. I mean seriously, what's that about? I always wear full pants, and loose T-shirts(it's not that bad, trust me) so I'm not being a hypocrite here. What annoys me is that it's okay for these men to boss their wives around and make them wear layer upon layer of black clothing in the middle of June and force them on to the beach and they themselves dress so immodestly. So woman must be perfectly Islamic but man can just put on his shorts and play volleyball in public because he is a man? I know Islam prohibits this kind of immodest behavior but many of us don't pay attention to these types of situations.

 

Has this ever caught your attention? Does it bother you? How would you recommend going about remedying this problem?

 

Salam.

Shahreem.

 

Unfortunately in our society, immodestly dressed hijabis are everywhere now, not just in the west. I went down to Lebanon and Iran for a visit, I had a heart attack when I saw the Hijabis. In Iran they have red tattooed eyebrows and in Lebanon they have tattooed lips with 2 shots of botox pumped into them, their faces look like plastic. And I won't even begin to talk about their dressing.

However, here in the west, women feel pressured by society to dress the way they do. I went to high school here, and every girl had a make-up salon packed in her purse, I felt left out. They dressed in tights or jeans with a top that just covers their behind (I don't even see that any more), crazy hijab styles, going out, listening to music, and I must say, coming from a religious family with an exceptional social/religious status, I STILL felt pressured and different, and leaned in at times. The truth is, you begin to think, it's just a little mascara, it's just one song, it's just one dress, he's just a friend, and next thing you know, BAM you've been sucked into the social system of acceptance and alienation, but I had my teachings as a child to fall back on, MANY women that I know did not have that, and rather, they educated themselves as they grew older. We live in a country where women are always dressed up, looking good, attracting others, and Muslim girls begin to feel dull, and unfortunately, parents don't plant religion in their hearts at young ages, so what happens? They give in to these temptations. I do not only blame the girls, nor their parents, but as a society we have a role towards supporting and informing these women, and even men, about the reasoning of modest dressing, rather than throwing a scarf on her head at the age of 9 and expecting her to learn all about Islam in the 10 short days of Ashura, or here's a good one "You're a Sheikh's daughter, you can't wear this" or "You're a sayeds daughter, you can't do that". We must educate our Muslim brethren rather than point our fingers at them and call them a joke.

 

As for tight tops on men at the beach, what's wrong with tight tops >.>

The small shorts (if they don't reach the knee), ok, you're right, but tight tops, I mean they're covered and men don't exactly have attractive assets. Its just chest, stomach and back. There is no ruling regarding tight tops on men.

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Unfortunately in our society, immodestly dressed hijabis are everywhere now, not just in the west. I went down to Lebanon and Iran for a visit, I had a heart attack when I saw the Hijabis. In Iran they have red tattooed eyebrows and in Lebanon they have tattooed lips with 2 shots of botox pumped into them, their faces look like plastic. And I won't even begin to talk about their dressing.

However, here in the west, women feel pressured by society to dress the way they do. I went to high school here, and every girl had a make-up salon packed in her purse, I felt left out. They dressed in tights or jeans with a top that just covers their behind (I don't even see that any more), crazy hijab styles, going out, listening to music, and I must say, coming from a religious family with an exceptional social/religious status, I STILL felt pressured and different, and leaned in at times. The truth is, you begin to think, it's just a little mascara, it's just one song, it's just one dress, he's just a friend, and next thing you know, BAM you've been sucked into the social system of acceptance and alienation, but I had my teachings as a child to fall back on, MANY women that I know did not have that, and rather, they educated themselves as they grew older. We live in a country where women are always dressed up, looking good, attracting others, and Muslim girls begin to feel dull, and unfortunately, parents don't plant religion in their hearts at young ages, so what happens? They give in to these temptations. I do not only blame the girls, nor their parents, but as a society we have a role towards supporting and informing these women, and even men, about the reasoning of modest dressing, rather than throwing a scarf on her head at the age of 9 and expecting her to learn all about Islam in the 10 short days of Ashura, or here's a good one "You're a Sheikh's daughter, you can't wear this" or "You're a sayeds daughter, you can't do that". We must educate our Muslim brethren rather than point our fingers at them and call them a joke.

 

As for tight tops on men at the beach, what's wrong with tight tops >.>

The small shorts (if they don't reach the knee), ok, you're right, but tight tops, I mean they're covered and men don't exactly have attractive assets. Its just chest, stomach and back. There is no ruling regarding tight tops on men.

Probably immodestly dressed hijabis would be way more rare if there were no pressure in wearing hijab. Those women probably don't want to wear it, yet they try to find a mid-point between the way they want to look and the way they are expected from their religious background to look. If free-will, which was given from God to us, was more respected and not destroyed by dictatorial families, societies, and/or laws, incoherences like the one you mention will probably be rare to see.

 

Regarding pressure in the West, that totally varies and is not really true. It's not only the West, each region have different beauty standards, and these can be better or worse according to very different criteria (for example, religious criteria). However, Arabs, for example, do also have complex beauty standards, such as being obssesed in having a light skin tone. Many arab women do even fear going out because they want to avoid a tan. It's natural in women, as well as in men, to try to enhance their beauty. And beauty is mainly defined by the vogue, and by the society people live in. Yes, there is some pressure, but it's not that much if you don't really care too much about looking good according to the latest beauty standards (you can definitely still be beautiful, though according to your own personal standards which other people may also understand and share). So, I personally think that if you like to care about that stuff, that doesn't mean that the next thing you will experiment is being "sucked into the social system of acceptance and alienation". We should grow some character if we really think that would happen to us in that case.

 

In the second hand, there are MANY people who actually and genuinely like to dress like that. They are free to do so, that doesn't mean they have low self esteem or no critical thinking at all. That doesn't mean they are alienated. If someone chooses an islamic and at the same time modest clothing style, that's his/her choice. It shouldn't be because everything else apart from that is just part of the social system of alienation. And to be honest, I'd even say I know more people who feel more pressure on the way they wear by their religious background than the other way around (by the Western standards).

 

Clothing standards vary a lot though, and we can contribute instead of judging negatively how "immodest" or "immoral" some people wear. We can influence the way people wear by giving good example. Not in the way we wear, but in the way we treat other people. Some people who like, for example, celebrities like the ones from One Direction, Miley, or Justin Bieber, imitate the way they wear because they like them, not mainly because they like the way they wear. Everyone can actually influence the way the people wear, in a smaller scale, of course, instead of judging and looking down at those people because they don't wear properly according to the islamic teachings.

 

Lastly, men do have attractive assets. Some (me included) would say even more than women. Everything depends on the eye of the beholder. Hijab on them shouldn't be overlooked (from a purely islamic point of view, I don't really care personally) because saying that women are more attractive than men is the norm.

Edited by Bakir

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This "naval to the knees " dress code for men is not a :Shia concept but found amongst the :Sunnis, therefore there is no official dress code for men from our position.

I dont understand why. Its not like all men are ugly and unattractive. I know many girls who love to look at good looking guys without their shirts on, so women are attracted to men as men are attracted to women.

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Probably immodestly dressed hijabis would be way more rare if there were no pressure in wearing hijab. Those women probably don't want to wear it, yet they try to find a mid-point between the way they want to look and the way they are expected from their religious background to look. If free-will, which was given from God to us, was more respected and not destroyed by dictatorial families, societies, and/or laws, incoherences like the one you mention will probably be rare to see.

 

Regarding pressure in the West, that totally varies and is not really true. It's not only the West, each region have different beauty standards, and these can be better or worse according to very different criteria (for example, religious criteria). However, Arabs, for example, do also have complex beauty standards, such as being obssesed in having a light skin tone. Many arab women do even fear going out because they want to avoid a tan. It's natural in women, as well as in men, to try to enhance their beauty. And beauty is mainly defined by the vogue, and by the society people live in. Yes, there is some pressure, but it's not that much if you don't really care too much about looking good according to the latest beauty standards (you can definitely still be beautiful, though according to your own personal standards which other people may also understand and share). So, I personally think that if you like to care about that stuff, that doesn't mean that the next thing you will experiment is being "sucked into the social system of acceptance and alienation". We should grow some character if we really think that would happen to us in that case.

 

In the second hand, there are MANY people who actually and genuinely like to dress like that. They are free to do so, that doesn't mean they have low self esteem or no critical thinking at all. That doesn't mean they are alienated. If someone chooses an islamic and at the same time modest clothing style, that's his/her choice. It shouldn't be because everything else apart from that is just part of the social system of alienation. And to be honest, I'd even say I know more people who feel more pressure on the way they wear by their religious background than the other way around (by the Western standards).

 

Clothing standards vary a lot though, and we can contribute instead of judging negatively how "immodest" or "immoral" some people wear. We can influence the way people wear by giving good example. Not in the way we wear, but in the way we treat other people. Some people who like, for example, celebrities like the ones from One Direction, Miley, or Justin Bieber, imitate the way they wear because they like them, not mainly because they like the way they wear. Everyone can actually influence the way the people wear, in a smaller scale, of course, instead of judging and looking down at those people because they don't wear properly according to the islamic teachings.

 

Lastly, men do have attractive assets. Some (me included) would say even more than women. Everything depends on the eye of the beholder. Hijab on them shouldn't be overlooked (from a purely islamic point of view, I don't really care personally) because saying that women are more attractive than men is the norm.

 

No, all the women I'm speaking about from my environment and first hand experience. They wear Hijab the way their friends wear hijab or try to be accepted by the west. I am between these women, so I think I know what I'm saying. You do feel alienated when you're not going with the flow. Hijabis here always follow a trend. Always. Whether it's tribal patterns, to bow tie scarfs, to wearing necklaces on their head, it's all with the flow. I know they want to wear hijab, but they feel you can be modest and fashionable at the same time, western fashionable. They put on the scarf with their own will, and countless times have I had them say: "Look we live in the west, we can't dress Islamicaly" but that's only because their idea of Islamic is covered in black head to toe in three sets of different abayas. And the beauty standards you speak of aren't true here, maybe you're referring to Iraqi Arab or Saudi Arab women in regards to brown skin. No joke, 4/5ths of the women I know want to be tanner, because it's in right now.

It is a social system. I've seen women change their dress code before me, day by day it would get worse, because they wanted to be someone they're not, including my own younger sister.

 

"Clothing standards vary a lot though, and we can contribute instead of judging negatively how "immodest" or "immoral" some people wear. We can influence the way people wear by giving good example. Not in the way we wear, but in the way we treat other people. Some people who like, for example, celebrities like the ones from One Direction, Miley, or Justin Bieber, imitate the way they wear because they like them, not mainly because they like the way they wear. Everyone can actually influence the way the people wear, in a smaller scale, of course, instead of judging and looking down at those people because they don't wear properly according to the islamic teachings."

 

Absolutely, instead of mocking others about their dresscode or even their actions, I've had GREAT feedback with some girls, I've gathered my sisters friends and spoke to them for example, just a general talk without mocking them, without threatening them, just a genuine talk, it did wonders for them, they loved it. They even want me to teach scripture at the school they attend now. Influence definitely plays a huge role, my friend, who originally dressed very well and then changed for the worse, when I became close with her and went out with her, she automatically cared more for her dress code, she began to change all on her own. The Imams were the most successful of teachers why? Because they were the best examples of role models, not because they were the prophet's descendants. And we have many hadeeth that proves religion is akhlaq, simple.

 

Keeping in mind my knowledge of your sexuality, I agree with you in one way, however if a man wears a tight top, I don't see how that's against Islamic shariah, compared to a woman. It's not about overlooking men, it's about men and women being two different things that require two different rulings. Men have their own kind of Hijab, it is not like that of women's.

I dont understand why. Its not like all men are ugly and unattractive. I know many girls who love to look at good looking guys without their shirts on, so women are attracted to men as men are attracted to women.

 

It's true there are many women like that, but a fun fact, according to Sistani it is haraam for a woman to look at a man shirtless with or without bad intentions, but it's ok on T.V., not like my husband even let's me look at that  :donno:

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I dont understand why. Its not like all men are ugly and unattractive. I know many girls who love to look at good looking guys without their shirts on, so women are attracted to men as men are attracted to women.

This is because of gender "role reversal " taking place in the west.

In Oz , the women here act like men and the men act like women literally , the aussie women even look like men , very muscular in appearance. This was pointed out by some of my wives as they noticed this unusual behaviour in women. Soon the men will have to wear :Hijab in order to protect themselves from such women. Especially if you're a "brown" good looking guy which is in big demand in oz.

If you go to some parts of Eastern Europe , you will find women do not generally get attracted to the physical looks of a man , they much prefer mature older men with good financial capacity to a young men with a 6 pack.

Edited by :Sami II

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This "naval to the knees " dress code for men is not a :Shia concept but found amongst the :Sunnis, therefore there is no official dress code for men from our position.

Navel, not naval, at least in American English. Maybe y'all Aussies talk different.

I don't think it is true that this is not a requirement for Shia men, but I can't provide evidence offhand. I'm going to go check my books.

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This is because of gender "role reversal " taking place in the west.

In Oz , the women here act like men and the men act like women literally , the aussie women even look like men , very muscular in appearance. This was pointed out by some of my wives as they noticed this unusual behaviour in women. Soon the men will have to wear :Hijab in order to protect themselves from such women. Especially if you're a "brown" good looking guy which is in big demand in oz.

If you go to some parts of Eastern Europe , you will find women do not generally get attracted to the physical looks of a man , they much prefer mature older men with good financial capacity to a young men with a 6 pack.

Huh thats interesting... but I guess rich old men get the most women regardless of looks...

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Navel, not naval, at least in American English. Maybe y'all Aussies talk different.

I don't think it is true that this is not a requirement for Shia men, but I can't provide evidence offhand. I'm going to go check my books.

I think the longer the shorts for men in the navy the better it is for them.

Thanks sis Jk.

 

btw we aussies speak proper english 

Huh thats interesting... but I guess rich old men get the most women regardless of looks...

not in Oz , the women are very independent here and don't like to be supported by men .

Oz is the opposite to Saudi Arabia.

There the men walk in front and the wives follow them from behind.

Here the woman walk in front and her husbands follow her from behind .

Edited by :Sami II

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I think the longer the shorts for men in the navy the better it is for them.

Thanks sis Jk.

 

btw we aussies speak proper english 

not in Oz , the women are very independent here and don't like to be supported by men .

Oz is the opposite to Saudi Arabia.

There the men walk in front and the wives follow them from behind.

Here the woman walk in front and her husbands follow her from behind .

Women are like that in america too, except sometimes they walk next to their husbands while holding hands. And some never even marry even though (or rather because) they are doctors and well educated. I am not saying women shouldnt be educated but many wait until after they get a job to start looking, by then theyre 26,27, 28 or older.

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Men are supposed to be covered from navel to knee. Most men choose to wear more due to cultural expectations.

Last time I said this on this forum everyone accused me of being a sunni.  Regardless, down here in the south it gets incredibly hot, and I don't think it's proper for a man wearing shorts and a t-shirt to be walking next to a hijabi wife/sister/mother.

 

I came across this blog post a long time ago (surprised I was still able to find it) that does a good job expressing some points on the issue: http://southernmuslimah.wordpress.com/2007/08/30/the-muslim-mans-dress-code/

 

Women are like that in america too, except sometimes they walk next to their husbands while holding hands. And some never even marry even though (or rather because) they are doctors and well educated. I am not saying women shouldnt be educated but many wait until after they get a job to start looking, by then theyre 26,27, 28 or older.

Well educated women are usually the ones getting married. However, sometimes, the more ambitious women who want to be heads of departments will end up not married (and without a boyfriend) because they don't have the time to date anyone seriously.

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Last time I said this on this forum everyone accused me of being a sunni.  Regardless, down here in the south it gets incredibly hot, and I don't think it's proper for a man wearing shorts and a t-shirt to be walking next to a hijabi wife/sister/mother.

 

I came across this blog post a long time ago (surprised I was still able to find it) that does a good job expressing some points on the issue: http://southernmuslimah.wordpress.com/2007/08/30/the-muslim-mans-dress-code/

 

Well educated women are usually the ones getting married. However, sometimes, the more ambitious women who want to be heads of departments will end up not married (and without a boyfriend) because they don't have the time to date anyone seriously.

I have 3 female cousins over the age of 25, ones a doctor, theyre all finding it tough to find a husband. There have been some articles written on this growing problem where women were told to go get educated and after they did, they found themselves too old according to culture.... the other problem is that a lot of the times men want a stay at home wife amd obviously a women with many years invested in education doesnt want to just be a stay at home wife.

The only female cousin I have who is married atm married while she was in school back when she was 21, but most girls I know are told to finish their education first.

Im not arab but I know a lot of arabs and their men do not want their wives to be more educated than them. Usually they want a girl with just a baccholers at most.

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(bismillah)

Okay, I've been noticing a couple of things that have become quite common in the Muslim Community--in the East and the West. One makes me laugh because it's just super funny, and the other really grinds my gears.

 

Let's start with something lighthearted.

 

Ever been to the mall and suddenly this absolutely stunning woman just walks past you? She has enough perfume to asphyxiate a Komodo Dragon to death, her clothes makes Britney Spears look modest, the amount of make up on her face just makes you uncomfortable and her hair couldn't be more exposed. Yeah, that's happened to all of us but here's the ironic bit. Her parents are following her around--her mother is covered head to toe in a niqab and her father is wearing a long thobe with an imamah to top it all of. Both of them have an expression of such pride on their faces, as if the contrast between their modesty and their daughter's immodesty was a good thing. It's sort of sad, but it's also worth a chuckle.

 

Now the part that's not so funny.

 

Whenever I travel abroad and hit the beach, I sometimes see hijabis wearing the most uncomfortable clothes to protect their modesty(My Allah bless them) and then their husbands pop up wearing these super small shorts and super tight T-shirts. I mean seriously, what's that about? I always wear full pants, and loose T-shirts(it's not that bad, trust me) so I'm not being a hypocrite here. What annoys me is that it's okay for these men to boss their wives around and make them wear layer upon layer of black clothing in the middle of June and force them on to the beach and they themselves dress so immodestly. So woman must be perfectly Islamic but man can just put on his shorts and play volleyball in public because he is a man? I know Islam prohibits this kind of immodest behavior but many of us don't pay attention to these types of situations.

 

Has this ever caught your attention? Does it bother you? How would you recommend going about remedying this problem?

 

Salam.

Shahreem.

 

Doesn't really bother me cuz I don't see it as a blatant offense. It doesn't exactly directly detract from Islam's image. Short shorts I think are hilarious, makes those men look like a joke to me, as for the tank-top/no shirt, as long as their intention isn't to attract attention (which is sadly rare), there is no problem as far as I know.

 

However something that really ticks me off, is I remember seeing a hijabi with long sleeve shirt and pants to the ankles. But guess what the pants were... tighty whiteys... apparently it was see-through to the point her underwear was clearly visible. To top it all off it's impossible to completely avoid looking because she has so much perfume that you can smell it from like 5 metres away.. so as you're standing minding your business... you suddenly catch a whiff of a strong odour, you look around to find the source and inevitably see her. Thankfully I didn't have to witness the rest of the indecency as I always knew to keep my head down in the halls whenever there is a strong odour in the air... lol... Gosh that's annoying, disgusting and aggravating.

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http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/jan/18/british-muslim-women-marriage-struggle

http://muslimmatters.org/2013/09/27/muslim-marriage-crisis/

http://www.mwlusa.org/topics/marriage&divorce/marriage%20challenge.htm

Last time I said this on this forum everyone accused me of being a sunni.  Regardless, down here in the south it gets incredibly hot, and I don't think it's proper for a man wearing shorts and a t-shirt to be walking next to a hijabi wife/sister/mother.

 

I came across this blog post a long time ago (surprised I was still able to find it) that does a good job expressing some points on the issue: http://southernmuslimah.wordpress.com/2007/08/30/the-muslim-mans-dress-code/

 

Well educated women are usually the ones getting married. However, sometimes, the more ambitious women who want to be heads of departments will end up not married (and without a boyfriend) because they don't have the time to date anyone seriously.

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This "naval to the knees " dress code for men is not a :Shia concept but found amongst the :Sunnis, therefore there is no official dress code for men from our position.

I was incorrect. According to all cited scholars in "A Code of Ethics for Muslim Men and Women" compiled by Mas'ud Ma'sumi, it is only wajib for men to cover their private parts. Some say as a precaution he should cover "his body" if there is fear of inciting lust in non-mehram women or anyone other than his wife.

I guess it's just traditional for men to wear clothing. And weather protection.

Br. :sami, thanks for the correction.

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I have 3 female cousins over the age of 25, ones a doctor, theyre all finding it tough to find a husband. There have been some articles written on this growing problem where women were told to go get educated and after they did, they found themselves too old according to culture.... the other problem is that a lot of the times men want a stay at home wife amd obviously a women with many years invested in education doesnt want to just be a stay at home wife.

The only female cousin I have who is married atm married while she was in school back when she was 21, but most girls I know are told to finish their education first.

Im not arab but I know a lot of arabs and their men do not want their wives to be more educated than them. Usually they want a girl with just a baccholers at most.

Sorry, I misinterpretted your post.  I thought you were referring to non-Muslims that are choosing not to get married.  In which case it's usually the poorer and/or less religious folks that are choosing not to get married, but instead just live with each other.  

 

But I do agree with you that Muslim women are having a hard time finding spouses.  I'm not so sure how much of it has to do with their age, as 26-28 years isn't that old any more.  I think some of them become too picky in who they're willing to marry, and some men are unwilling to earn less than their wives (lose the upper hand, if you will).

 

I was incorrect. According to all cited scholars in "A Code of Ethics for Muslim Men and Women" compiled by Mas'ud Ma'sumi, it is only wajib for men to cover their private parts. Some say as a precaution he should cover "his body" if there is fear of inciting lust in non-mehram women or anyone other than his wife.

I guess it's just traditional for men to wear clothing. And weather protection.

Br. :sami, thanks for the correction.

 

I wonder where the Sunni "knee to navel" thing comes from.  I'd much rather follow that, and teach that to my kids one day, than to just cover one's private parts.  Of course I'd also like them to be mindful of what Muslim women have to wear, and dress corresspondingly in a manner that doesn't downplay the difficulties (heat, lack of mobility, discomfort) they can face when maintaining their modesty.

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Women are like that in america too, except sometimes they walk next to their husbands while holding hands. And some never even marry even though (or rather because) they are doctors and well educated. I am not saying women shouldnt be educated but many wait until after they get a job to start looking, by then theyre 26,27, 28 or older.

wow that's so old , like can women still have babies then ??

I was incorrect. According to all cited scholars in "A Code of Ethics for Muslim Men and Women" compiled by Mas'ud Ma'sumi, it is only wajib for men to cover their private parts. Some say as a precaution he should cover "his body" if there is fear of inciting lust in non-mehram women or anyone other than his wife.

I guess it's just traditional for men to wear clothing. And weather protection.

Br. :sami, thanks for the correction.

i was also incorrect , naval officers can wear shorts, but highly advised not to for precautionary reasons.

JK sis 

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Sorry, I misinterpretted your post.  I thought you were referring to non-Muslims that are choosing not to get married.  In which case it's usually the poorer and/or less religious folks that are choosing not to get married, but instead just live with each other.  

 

But I do agree with you that Muslim women are having a hard time finding spouses.  I'm not so sure how much of it has to do with their age, as 26-28 years isn't that old any more.  I think some of them become too picky in who they're willing to marry, and some men are unwilling to earn less than their wives (lose the upper hand, if you will).

 

 

I wonder where the Sunni "knee to navel" thing comes from.  I'd much rather follow that, and teach that to my kids one day, than to just cover one's private parts.  Of course I'd also like them to be mindful of what Muslim women have to wear, and dress corresspondingly in a manner that doesn't downplay the difficulties (heat, lack of mobility, discomfort) they can face when maintaining their modesty.

No need for apologies bro, i should have been more clear. Yeah I think pickiness has part too on the woman's part but I know in my culture men prefer women in their early 20s. Getting married is just tough all around these days :(

wow that's so old , like can women still have babies then ??

i was also incorrect , naval officers can wear shorts, but highly advised not to for precautionary reasons.

JK sis

werent you the one telling me I dont have much time left? :p but I dunno I guess men want their women to be pretty and wrinkle free for as long as possible? But also I think younger women are probably easier to dominate and mold, perhaps thats why.

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No need for apologies bro, i should have been more clear. Yeah I think pickiness has part too on the woman's part but I know in my culture men prefer women in their early 20s. Getting married is just tough all around these days :(

werent you the one telling me I dont have much time left? :P but I dunno I guess men want their women to be pretty and wrinkle free for as long as possible? But also I think younger women are probably easier to dominate and mold, perhaps thats why.

I actually find women over 70s make the best wives, there's not much resistance in getting them to do things especially after they had their meds.

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I'm glad you guys are giving me your input, it helps me understand the situation better. I can understand why a woman might do what she does in the West, but in the East there really isn't a good excuse. I've tried coming up with 70 excuses for them, but that's not possible. Truth is many not-so educated Muslim families come across a lot of wealth through business and then send their daughters to the most Western school they can find. Naturally, their daughters become Westernized and there's this HUGE communication gap between her and her parents. Overtime, the parents become intimidated by their kids and no longer think they are able to meet their needs. In any case, the plastic-perfumed daughter is a good thing. They say to themselves, "Look at us, and look at them! God has blessed us with status and success!" I'm sure many of you know what I'm talking about.

 

But these women aren't bad--not at all. I would be the last person to say that. When I started my "Censor Pornography" campaign, my most enthusiastic supporters were women who were leading completely un-Islamic lifestyles, who themselves watched porn and had boyfriends, All I had to was have a down to earth conversation with them to get them thinking. It isn't their fault, rather they never questioned what they were being exposed to. The media has done a thorough job in brain washing people. Once again, communication is key to fixing this. At least it generates discussion.

 

Some of my most spiteful opponents were men from religious families--I never understood this bit. No matter how many reasons I gave them, they found an excuse to legitimize porn.  

 

It's not always possible to start a conversation with someone on dress code. Hopefully, we can find ways to improve  our understanding.

 

Also, if it's only wajib to cover the private parts, you're telling me I could walk out shirtless wearing nothing but a pair of shorts? Somehow, i just dont see the Imams nodding to that. But then again, i could be wrong.

 

Salam.

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from a fiqh point of view there is nothing wrong with a man going out wearing just shorts , however in my situation for the sake of public safety and welfare  I would not never go out like this .

--JAW DROPPED--

LOL!!

But just for curiosity, wouldn't being shirtless offend most people--regardless of culture? It would be extremely difficult to be indifferent to a well built shirtless man sitting next to you. Heck, even the West is not entirely comfortable with that. Is the ruling makhrooh, or simply jaiz?

Edited by Shahreem Ahsan

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wow that's so old , like can women still have babies then ??

In my family we have healthy babies into our 40s. Nothing in 20s is too old. However, waiting until 30s or 40s for marriage probably has psychological effects and may cause permanent damage to a person's libido. I don't support delaying marriage until after education for men or women. I just wanted to correct this misconception common in Arab and Asian cultures, that women over 30 are not able to bear children.

But that's a diversion from the topic. Let's get back to discussing the issue of whether we are bothered by families not matching.

But just for curiosity, wouldn't being shirtless offend most people--regardless of culture? It would be extremely difficult to be indifferent to a well built shirtless man sitting next to you. Heck, even the West is not entirely comfortable with that. Is the ruling makhrooh, or simply jaiz?

The minimal requirement is covering private parts. A Muslim is also expected to not make himself a joke or disgrace. He should wear what is acceptable in his culture in addition to meeting minimal requirements.

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