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In the Name of God بسم الله

Allah(Swt) - Al Kafi/shia Vs Bukhari/sunni Hadith

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Peace be with you all,

 

Shias and Sunnis differ on their concept of Allah swt. As you can see , this difference has arisen from who we take our hadiths from,and who we believe preserved his Sunnah,

 

 

Contention one: Can we see Allah swt, comprehend him or limit him in our knowledge?

 

Bukhari

9.530:

The Prophet said, "You will definitely see your Lord with your own eyes."

9.531:

Allah’s Apostle came out to us on the night of the full moon and said, "You will see your Lord on the Day of Resurrection as you see this (full moon) and you will have no difficulty in seeing Him."

 

Al Kafi

H 261, Ch. 9, h 10- Graded SAHIH by Alama Majlisi

"I asked Imam abul Hassan al-Rida (a.s.), about Allah if He can be described (defined in words). The Imam (a.s.) said, "Have you not read the Quran?" I replied, "Yes, I do read the Quran." He then said, "Have you not read the words of Allah, the Most High, "No mortal eyes can see Him, but He can see all eyes. He is All-kind and All-aware." (6:103) I replied, "Yes, I have read them." The Imam (a.s.) said, "Do they know the meaning of the eyes?" I replied, "Yes, they do." The Imam (a.s.) said, "What is it?" I replied, " It means seeing with the eyes." Then the Imam said, the Awham(mentioned above) of the heart is far greater comprehensive in knowledge than eye-witnessing. It is not able to comprehend Him but He comprehends all things.

 

(One paragraph taken from the hadith) H 253, Ch. 9, h 2  Graded SAHIH by Alama Majlisi

The Imam said, "How can a person who brought such messages to all creatures and told them

that he has brought such messages from Allah and called them to Allah by His commands and said, "The eyes can not comprehend Him." (6:103) "They can not limit Him through their knowledge." (20:110) "There is nothing similar to Him." (42:11), then he would say, "I saw Him with my own eyes? I did limit Him in my knowledge and that He is similar to a man? Should you not be ashamed of yourselves? Even the atheist have not said that the Prophet first brought one thing from Allah and then announced from Him other things contrary to the first."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Contention two- Does Allah change states, or undergo change?

 

Bukhari:

"...What keeps you here when all the people have gone?' They will say, 'We parted with them (in the world) when we were in greater need of them than we are today, we heard the call of one proclaiming, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship,' and now we are waiting for our Lord.' Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation..."

 

Al Kafi

H 313, Ch. 16, h 4 – Graded Sahih by Alama Majlisi

The Imam said, "There is nothing in the universe, but that is subject to annihilation, alteration, change, decay, transition from one color to another, from one shape to another and from one quality to another. They increase, decrease and change from decrease to increase, except He, Who is the Lord of the worlds. He alone is eternal and in one state. He is the first, before every thing and the last eternally. His attributes and names do not change as they do in the case of others. A man at one time is dust, at other time flesh and blood, then turns into decaying bones and finally becomes dust. A piece of date  at one time is raw, at another time ripe, mature and then it dries up. With every change, the names and attributes also change. Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious is different from all such things."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Contention three: Does Allah swt have a form?

 

Bukhari:

"...What keeps you here when all the people have gone?' They will say, 'We parted with them (in the world) when we were in greater need of them than we are today, we heard the call of one proclaiming, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship,' and now we are waiting for our Lord.' Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation..."

 

 

Al Kafi:
Graded Muwathaq
He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام: I heard Hisham b. al-Hakam narrate from you that Allah has a body, supported by light, His recognition is necessary and He bestows this [knowledge] upon whom He wills from the creation. So he عليه السلام said: Glorified be He, whom no one knows how He is except Himself. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing. He cannot be limited, nor can He be felt, nor can He be moved, nor can He be comprehended [by sight, nor by] the senses, nor can He be contained in anything, nor does He have a body, nor does He have a form, nor a figure, nor a confine. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 278)

 

 

 

 

Contention : Does Allah swt move position?

 

Bukhari:

1145( Abu Hurairah)

“The Lord (Allah swt) descends every night to the lowest heaven when one-third of the night remains and says: ‘Who will call upon Me, that I may answer Him? Who will ask of Me, that I may give him? Who will seek My forgiveness, that I may forgive him?’”

 

Man Lā Yaḥḍuruh al-Faqīh, Graded sahih by alama majlisi

 ‘O son of the Messenger of Allāh, what do you say about the ḥadīth which the people narrate from the Messenger of Allāh, that he said: ‘Allāh descends in every night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night) to the earth’s heavens’’.

He said: ‘May Allāh curse (la`na) those who distort the words from its place, by Allāh, the Messenger of Allāh has not said that! Verily, he said: ‘Allāh) sends down an angel to the earth’s heavens in the last third of every night, and the first part of the night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night). And He commands him to call, ‘Are there any (who) asks, so that I can grant him?’; ‘Are there any repenters that I should forgive him?’;..."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I conclude with the following excerpt of a hadith:

 

He said: A man came to Abu’l Hasan ar-Rida عليه السلام from beyond the Balkh river and said: I will ask you a question, if your answer to me is the same as that which is with me [i will accept your cause]. So Abu’l Hasan عليه السلام said: Ask whatever you wish. So he said: Inform me about your Lord, when did He come into being? And how is His state? And upon what thing does He rely? So Abu’l Hasan عليه السلام said: Allah تبارك وتعالى was there before there was a “there”, and He was being before there was a “how”, and His reliance is upon His power. So the man rose to him and kissed his head, and said: I bear witness that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and that `Ali is the deputy of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله and the succeeding upholder of what the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله established, and that you are the righteous Imams and the successors after them. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 233) Graded SAHIH by Alama Majlisi

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Question - if anyone of the Muslims, of any sect, believes in `tajseem (giving Allaah عزوجل bodily attributes) - would he be considered a kaafir and not of our Ummah?

Because this belief is in the Sunni mainstream books - their most authentic ones.

Edited by Revolving Ace
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I can't understand why shias mocking prophetic narrations about seeing Allah? 

 

Probably these verses of Quran, in accordance to you, were also fabricated by "bad companions"?

 

[Pickthal 75:22] That day will faces be resplendent,
[Pickthal 75:23] Looking toward their Lord;

 

Why not to mock them and make your disbelief more clear?


Just let me little more elaborate on question

Does Allah change states, or undergo change?

 

I will cite nothing but AUTHENTIC shia hadith.

 

Shia sheikh ibn Qawlaveyh in his book “Kamil az ziyarat” narrated from imam Jafar as-Sadiq:

 
post-177073-0-12604500-1420466904_thumb.
 

“One day in the house of hazrat Fatima (a), the Messenger of Allah (s) took imam Huseyn (a) in his arms. Suddenly he cried and made prostration. Some time later, the hazrat said: ‘Oh Fatima! Oh Muhamad’s daughter, The Most High in this hour, in this house has shown Himself to me in the most beautiful form and the best manner and said: ‘Oh Muhamad! Do you love Huseyn?’ I said: ‘ He is my eye’s light, my sweet-scented plant, fruit of my soul and leather between two of my eyes’.

Then, he put his hand on Huseyn’s blessed head and said: ‘Oh Muhammad, may this newly born kid, upon whom are My blessing and greeting, mercy and pleasure, be blessed. My anger, curse and punishment, humiliation and disgrace will be upon his killer, also upon person who hates him and goes against him. Know that he is the leader of the first and the last martyrs in this world and the hereafter and the leader of the youth among the creation in the Paradise’.”

حدَّثني أبي ـ رحمه الله ـ عن سعد بن عبدالله ، عن محمّد بن عيسى بن عُبيد اليقطينيِّ ، عن محمّد بن سِنان ، عن أبي سعيد القَمّاط عن ابن أبي يَعفور ، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام «قال : بينما رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم في منزل فاطمة عليها السلام والحسين في حِجره إذ بكى وخرَّ ساجداً ، ثمَّ قال : يا فاطمة بنت محمّد! إنَّ العليَّ الأعلى ترائي لي في بيتك هذا في ساعتي هذه في أحسن صورة وأهْيَأ هَيئة ، وقال لي : يامحمّد أتحبّ الحسين؟ فقال : نعم ؛ قُرة عيني ورَيحانتي وثمرة فؤادي ؛ وجلدة ما بين عيني ، فقال لي : يا محمّد ـ ووضع يده على رأس الحسين عليه السلام ـ بورك من مولود عليه بركاتي وصلواتي ورحمتي ورضواني ؛ ولعنتي وسخطي وعذابي وخزيي ونكالي على مَن قَتَلَه وناصَبَه وناواه ونازَعَه ، أما إنّه سيّدُ الشّهداء مِنَ الاُوَّلينَ والآخِرينَ في الدُّنيا والآخرَة ـ وذكر الحديث ـ »

Source: Kamil az-ziyarat  chp 21, p 65-66

 

Book Kamil az-Ziyarat was authenticated by author ibn Qawlaweyh al-Qummi himself. He said in the introduction to his book:

وقد علمنا أنّا لا نحيط بجميع ما روي عنهم في هذا المعنى ولا في غيره ، لكن ما وقع لنا من جهة الثّقات من أصحابنا ـ رحمهم الله [برحمته] ـ ولا أخرجت فيه حديثاً روي عن الشُّذاذ من الرِّجال

We realize we cannot cover all that which has been transmitted from them (imams) on this subject [the salutations at the shrines], nor on any other issue, except that which has been related to us by reliable [transmitters] from our companions – may Allah forgive them by His Rahmat. I have not cited a tradition in it [the book] which has been transmitted by reporters who are rarely mentioned (shudhdhadh).

 

 

It was also authenticated by Abdulhamid al-Muhajir. Just google for video with authentication.

 

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This is a refutation from br. Tawheed313, he asked me to post this because he has reached the limit amount of daily posting.

His words -

1. Addressing "Faces will be radiant, looking at their lord"

Other translations:

Shakir: Looking to their Lord.

Muhammad Sarwar: and look forward to receiving mercy from their Lord.

Tafsir(examining the arabic word used):

"According to Arabic Lexicon, the word Nadhira that is used in the above verse does not neccesarily imply 'seeing'. The imams (as) have used other vereses of the Quran to support the definition of the word "Nadhira" in this verse a similar to the meaning of "Mntadhira" which means expecting, waiting, or looking forward to. On the commentary of this verse, Imam Ali a.s said:

"The verse means looking forward to what Allah, the mighty and the majestic has promised them. And the word 'Nadhira' sometimes means 'Expecting/waiting/looking forward'('al'Muntadhira'). Haven't you heard the saying of Allah '(But i am doing to send him a present) and i am looking forward(Nadhira) to what (answer) the ambassadors will return (27:35)

This means i am waiting (Al Muntadhira) for what the ambassadors will return..."

Bihar Al-Anwar, V90/93, p101, Hadith#1

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Revolving Ace

 

Being honest brother this explanation which you have posted is not sensible. Let me explain why.

 

Other translations:
Shakir: Looking to their Lord.
Muhammad Sarwar: and look forward to receiving mercy from their Lord.

 

 

 

 
Translation of Muhammad Sarwar is clear cut tampering of the meaning. Because there is no word about mercy of Allah in this verse. 
 
Tafsir(examining the arabic word used):
"According to Arabic Lexicon, the word Nadhira that is used in the above verse does not neccesarily imply 'seeing'. The imams  (as) have used other vereses of the Quran to support the definition of the word "Nadhira" in this verse a similar to the meaning of "Mntadhira" which means expecting, waiting, or looking forward to. 

 

 

This explanation isn't correct. Yes arabic word Nadhira can be used as meaning waiting, expecting and etc. But NOT when it is used with word Ila which means direction. Whenever it used with word ILA- that can only mean seeing, watching.

 

 

 


Also just in advance I'd like to address one argument of neo-mutazillah in their attempt to reject ruyetullah.

 

In his notable tafsir, Al-Zamakhshari makes a particular observation on the ayah:

وَلَمَّا جَاء مُوسَى لِمِيقَاتِنَا وَكَلَّمَهُ رَبُّهُ قَالَ رَبِّ أَرِنِي أَنظُرْ إِلَيْكَ 
قَالَ لَن تَرَانِي
 وَلَـكِنِ انظُرْ إِلَى الْجَبَلِ فَإِنِ اسْتَقَرَّ مَكَانَهُ فَسَوْفَ تَرَانِي

“And when Musa (Moses) came at the time and place appointed by Us, and his Lord spoke to him, he said: “O my Lord! Show me (Yourself), that I may look upon You.”
Allah
said: “You 
will not
 (لن) see Me, but look upon the mountain if it stands still in its place then you shall see Me…”
 [Al-A'raf: 143]

He (rahimahullah) makes the claim that grammatically, the negative particle لن has the added implication of نفي إلى الأبد (forever) i.e. the particle not only negates the near future of this world, but also negates the Akhira too; لن = never, neither in this world nor in the Hereafter.

Now, many may accept this statement at point-blank, but re-reading the verse with this grammatical connotation spells trouble. Due to his heavy alliance with the Mu’tazili aqeedah, Al-Zamakhshari propagates the view that by using the word لن here, Allah `azza wa jall is saying that Musa (`alayhisalam) and the creation in general will never see Allah, neither in this world nor in the Hereafter – which is a belief held by the Mu’tazilah. However the correct belief, confirmed by ahadith, is that in the Hereafter the believers in Paradise will be blessed with seeing Allah `azza wa jall (something the Mu’tazilah deny).

Shaykh Salih al-Maghamisi (hafidhahullah) puts this argument on the table and exposes the falsehood of it by bringing forth other verses in the Qur’an which clearly contradict it. The particle لن is for sure one of negation of the future tense, but it does not always imply negation of the Hereafter too as demonstrated below. These verses are an address to the Jews:

قُلْ إِن كَانَتْ لَكُمُ الدَّارُ الآَخِرَةُ عِندَ اللّهِ خَالِصَةً مِّن دُونِ النَّاسِ فَتَمَنَّوُاْ الْمَوْتَ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ

وَ
لَن يَتَمَنَّوْهُ
 أَبَداً بِمَا قَدَّمَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَاللّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِالظَّالِمينَ

Say to (them): “If the home of the Hereafter with
Allah
is indeed for you specially and not for others, of mankind, then long for death if you are truthful.”

But they 
will never
 (لن) long for it because of what their hands have sent before them (i.e. what they have done)…” 
[Al-Baqarah: 94-95]

Now, even though the particle لن is also used here (as well as the emphasis with ‘abadan’), does it mean that the Jews and Christians will never wish for death, even in the Hereafter? Well, no actually it doesn’t. And the answer lies in Soorah al-Zukhruf:

وَنَادَوْا يَا مَالِكُ لِيَقْضِ عَلَيْنَا رَبُّكَ قَالَ إِنَّكُم مَّاكِثُونَ

And they will cry: “O Malik (Keeper of Hell)! 
Let your Lord put an end to us.”
 He will say: “Verily you shall abide forever.”
 [Al-Zukhruf: 77]

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Brother, this was not my post, it is Tawheed313's post.

He also told me to say this -

His words "Sahih hadiths in Al Kafi that state Muhammed pbuh never saw Allah swt, and we can never see Allah swt, and it's an established belief in shia Islam, so to quote random sources we are yet to verify against the already verified hadith is intellectual dishonesty.

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I am not trying to prove you that as shias you have to believe in ruetullah. Probably your ahadeth teach you other way, my only concern that by no way you can prove your faith in impossibility of ruetullah by Quran. 

 

In the name of Allah, the most beneficient, the most merciful.

 

I am glad the discussion had turned to the Quran, rather than proving shia's believe in Allah swt having a form, a confine and limitations. This is the approach you used at the start, but i assure you, from our main hadith books, including Al Kafi, there isn't a single hadith - i have personally checked- in Al Kafi Kitab Al Tawheed, which states he has a form. In-fact, the hadiths vehemently appose it - sahih hadiths. Therefore, there is no doubt of the plethora of Sahih shia hadiths and the 'Ijmah among shia scholars past and present against Allah swt having any form, moving, changing form, limited, and the human comprehension ever containing him in this life or the next.

 

Now, you have raised the issue with regards to the Quran - can we prove from the Quran we can never see Allah swt? Let us examine this issue by taking a hollistic view of the Holy Quran.

 

I turn your attention to another verse of the Holy Quran, to show you the fallacy of taking verses of the Quran literally, rather than allegorically.

 

Al Quran: "The Day the shin will be uncovered and they are invited to prostration but the disbelievers will not be able,"

 

Now here is the explanation of this hadith from Bukhari:

 

Bukhari:

"...What keeps you here when all the people have gone?' They will say, 'We parted with them (in the world) when we were in greater need of them than we are today, we heard the call of one proclaiming, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship,' and now we are waiting for our Lord.' Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation..."

 

 

Points of contention:

 

1. If we take a literalistic view of the verse, then it literalls means there will be a leg(or shin) that will be uncovered.

2. The hadith states this shin belongs to Allah swt, and he will uncover his shin.

 

 

Therefore, you can conclude there is no way of disproving:

 

1. Allah swt has a shin - even though we can't imagine it and should not compare it to our shin (which defies logic)

2. We just affirm he has a shin and do not go against the Quran.

 

 

There are a number of flaws with this. Firstly, Allah swt himself states there are clear verses in the Quran, and there are allegorical verses: "He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical" Quran.

 

Therefore you see other translations stating the following:

 

Pickthall: On the day when it befalleth in earnest, and they are ordered to prostrate themselves but are not able,

Shakir: On the day when there shall be a severe affliction, and they shall be called upon to make obeisance, but they shall not be able,

Muhammad Sarwar: On the day when the terrible torment approaches, they will be told (in a mocking way) to prostrate themselves, but they will not be able to do it.

 

By stating Allah swt has a literal shin - even if we can't comprehend it- you essentially partition Allah swt into constituent parts making up the whole. This defies the essence of Tawheed - Allah swt is unified, he is one - absolute. He can not be divided , by right of his unity and incomparability to anything. The translation of severe affliction makes far more contextual sense in this verse, as does terrible torment because it discards the irrational, unislamic, and un-quranic translation of Allah swt uncovering his leg - rather, the verse talks about the disbelivers, and it makes far more sense it means the torment and punishment, with respect to the day of judgement.

 

This is the issue of those who distorted the meanings of the verses of Allah swt,and made up their own personal stories, and misguided the masses.

 

 

I'll give you another example. Here a sunni brother states Allah swt has a face - and a beautiful face, and we don't question what his face is like, we just accept what he says in the Quran; namely Allah swt has a face.

 

 

Dr Zakir naik, in this video (urdu and english towards the end) affirms we will see the face of Allah swt in the next life.

 

 

Now, where in the Quran does it say Allah swt has a face ? . Let us examine the verse claimed:

 

Al Quran: "And do not invoke with Allah another deity. There is no deity except Him. Everything will be destroyed except His Face. His is the judgement, and to Him you will be returned."

 

So someone might say, look at this verse. Allah swt is clearly stating he has face that will not perish.Therefore - they argue- let us affirm this verse in the Quran without questioning it. But the face is meant literally, and his face exists, and has a form and shape - but not one we could comprehend or imagine until the day of judgement if he shows us.

 

Now here is the flaw of having such a basic, literalistic, unhollistic, and irrational view of the Quran.

 

Another verse states:

 

Al Quran: "And to Allah belongs the east and the west. So wherever you [might] turn, there is the Face of Allah. Indeed, Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing."

 

This itself shatters anyone taking a literalist view of the 'face' of Allah swt. Clearly, the  'face of Allah' is used allegorically in the Quran. Additionally, even if you were to take the face literally, if his face survives literally - then what about his hands, fingers, shin , feet etc?

 

We are told in the Quran itself, no vision can perceive Allah swt, and that he is above all comprehension. The verse never says, only in the earth. It's a clear timeless statement: No vision can perceive him, and he is above all comprehension.  It is a clear cut statement. It is your own intepretation that this only refers to the Dunyah.

 

"No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things." Al Quran

 

The Imams of the Ahlulbayt a.s give excellent intepretations of this verse. Firstly, you can say eyes can not see him, but what about the heart? The heart has a greater capacity to visualise and grasp than the eye. Yet if the heart can't grasp or contain Allah swt , how can a simple thing like the eye, which has far less comprehension than human intellect and conciouss ability to reflect? Another hadith states, this verse refers to the comprehension of the heart, and if the heart can't comprehend him, how can the eyes?

 

Al Kafi

H 261, Ch. 9, h 10- Graded SAHIH by Alama Majlisi

"I asked Imam abul Hassan al-Rida (a.s.), about Allah if He can be described (defined in words). The Imam (a.s.) said, "Have you not read the Quran?" I replied, "Yes, I do read the Quran." He then said, "Have you not read the words of Allah, the Most High, "No mortal eyes can see Him, but He can see all eyes. He is All-kind and All-aware." (6:103) I replied, "Yes, I have read them." The Imam (a.s.) said, "Do they know the meaning of the eyes?" I replied, "Yes, they do." The Imam (a.s.) said, "What is it?" I replied, " It means seeing with the eyes." Then the Imam said, the Awham(mentioned above) of the heart is far greater comprehensive in knowledge than eye-witnessing. It is not able to comprehend Him but He comprehends all things.

Edited by Tawheed313
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I am not trying to prove you that as shias you have to believe in ruetullah. Probably your ahadeth teach you other way, my only concern that by no way you can prove your faith in impossibility of ruetullah by Quran. 

 

In light of proving the fallacy in taking verses of the Quran literally, let us examine the verses "that day faces will be radiant, looking to/at their Lord".

 

We have in the previous post proved this:

 

1. The literalistic notion i.e Allah swt has a shin can not be supported by the Quran, and defies rationality and the essence of tawheed.

2. Allah swt talks about things allegorically, and even states some verses in the Quran were defined allegorically.

3. We must take the clear verses, and not intepreate falsely and literally the unclear verses. For example Allah swt clearly states, he is one - unified, therefore stating he has a face, a shin, and so on, make him into constituent parts, defying the essence of tawheed. Additionally, the Quran states - no vision can perceive him/he is above all comprehension. This is not a statement restricted to this world , there are no limits to the statement, and hence it's a universal statement. Allah swt is telling us all a fact: We can't see him, we can't comprehend him (i.e by his nature he is above that, he can not be limited by us for comprehension).

4. Allah swt by his nature, can not be limited, be confined, have a restricted form, be made of consituent parts, be comprehended and so on. These all defy the Quran, defy tawheed, and crush any rational argument that can be used to prove his existence.

 

Tafseer:

 

The blessed Verses treat of the states of the good doing believers and the evil doing disbelievers on the Day of Resurrection, saying: "Some faces that Day shall be happy, looking at their Lord. The Arabic participial form nādira, cognate with nadra, connotes a particular kind of happiness which is consequent to affluence and welfare and is accompanied by felicity, beauty, and splendor. In other words, their appearance reflects their great happiness consequent to being endowed with Divine Bounties. The same theme is to found elsewhere in the Holy Qur’an: "You shall recognise in their faces [those of the people of Paradise] the splendor of delight" (83:24).

 

The blessed Verses 22 and 23 reflect the material and spiritual Bounties respectively. The blessed Verse 23 says that they only look at the Pure Essence of their Lord with their eye of heart and through inward intuition. Such glance makes them absorbed in the Unique Essence and the Absolute Perfection and Beauty, such that one single moment of their exalted state is far superior to what exists in this world. In this vein, it is narrated from Imam Ridā (as) that they await their Lord’s Rewards.[1] It is noteworthy that the precedence of "at their Lord" over "happy" restricts the meaning, namely they solely look at Him not at anyone else.

 

 

Clearly, the verse is talking about an expectancy, about the allegorical way inwhich they will see the reality of their state , of the truth, and of the rewards they will have.

 

 

For example , many times Allah swt uses 'sight' in an arregorical way:

 

"And We have certainly created for Hell many of the jinn and mankind. They have hearts with which they do not understand, they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear." Al Quran

 

The perceiving of the eyes is meant allegorically. Many times the Quran refers to the disbelievers as those unable to see, or hear. It's a term used allegorically. And to 'see' Allah swt is to see the truth of Allah swt, in the pure message he revealed, and the reality of his existence etc.

 

Therefore, in conjunction with the Quranic verse which states we will never see/comprehend him, and in addition to the irrational descriptions given about Allah swt's shin, disproved in the Quran a long with his face , fingers etc, we have demonstrated Allah swt uses and testifies to using verses allegorically, and that we should not be taking it all literally.

 

Furthermore, we must affirm the clear verses, and not the allegorical to be literal.

 

1. Allah swt clearly states, vision can not perceieve him/we can not comprehend him. There is no verse saying 'No one in the Dunyah can see him'.

2. Surah Iklas clearly shows us, Allah swt is one, unified. Therefore he can not have a 'shin' 'face' 'fingers' even if you believe his fingers, face, shin and so on are different to us. To believe Allah swt is made of constituent parts undermines tawheed and his oneness and unity.

3. The allegorical verses, such as the face of Allah swt, his shin, among others, have been - and i will let readers judge- proved to be irrational when taking the Quran holistically, and applying logic, whilst affirming the clear verses.

4. To prove the existence of God, you must prove he is eternal , unchanging, has no limit form or confine, has no constituent parts, and is not in any physical location. The moment you belive he is in a location, or has a limited form, you make him defined, you make him within the limits of description and comprehension - again totally against rational and Quranic doctrine and belief. You also crush any argument in proving his existence.

 

If i say, Allah swt has a shin, a face, fingers, and a right hand - as many sunnis believe- but his parts are not the same as ours, but i affirm the literal meaning then i fall into a trap:

 

1. I go against tawheed - that Allah swt is one , unity. I make Allah swt more than one by giving him constituent parts. Allah swt is not one but a summation of consituent parts making a whole.

 

2. I go against the Quran, in that there is nothing comparable to him. For example, creaiton has constituent parts. If i then say so does Allah swt that is a direct similarity we have in the literal sense to him. If i say Allah swt is literally above the Arsh, then i contain him to a definite location, and similar to creation - we by our property can only be contained to one location.

 

Shia muslims affirm the clear verses in the Quran, and take the Quran in a hollistic sense, applying the core clear verses to interprete the unclear ones - which are truthfully allegorical.

 

I understand brother, why you would defend these notions. This is because you have hadith in your most authentic books affirming these things. By questioning this belief, we are not questioning the Quran, by hadith intepretations of these verses, and if we can prove those hadiths are not only against Quran, but also tawheed and logic, it brings into disrepute the entire ilm al rijal, seerah of the ahle sunnah understanding of the history of Islam, and will cause great upheaval in the sunni shia polemic.

 

Revolving Ace

 

Being honest brother this explanation which you have posted is not sensible. Let me explain why.

 

 

 

 
Translation of Muhammad Sarwar is clear cut tampering of the meaning. Because there is no word about mercy of Allah in this verse. 
 
 

 

This explanation isn't correct. Yes arabic word Nadhira can be used as meaning waiting, expecting and etc. But NOT when it is used with word Ila which means direction. Whenever it used with word ILA- that can only mean seeing, watching.

 

 

 

Also just in advance I'd like to address one argument of neo-mutazillah in their attempt to reject ruyetullah.

 

In his notable tafsir, Al-Zamakhshari makes a particular observation on the ayah:

وَلَمَّا جَاء مُوسَى لِمِيقَاتِنَا وَكَلَّمَهُ رَبُّهُ قَالَ رَبِّ أَرِنِي أَنظُرْ إِلَيْكَ 
قَالَ لَن تَرَانِي
 وَلَـكِنِ انظُرْ إِلَى الْجَبَلِ فَإِنِ اسْتَقَرَّ مَكَانَهُ فَسَوْفَ تَرَانِي

“And when Musa (Moses) came at the time and place appointed by Us, and his Lord spoke to him, he said: “O my Lord! Show me (Yourself), that I may look upon You.”
Allah
said: “You 
will not
 (لن) see Me, but look upon the mountain if it stands still in its place then you shall see Me…”
 [Al-A'raf: 143]

He (rahimahullah) makes the claim that grammatically, the negative particle لن has the added implication of نفي إلى الأبد (forever) i.e. the particle not only negates the near future of this world, but also negates the Akhira too; لن = never, neither in this world nor in the Hereafter.

Now, many may accept this statement at point-blank, but re-reading the verse with this grammatical connotation spells trouble. Due to his heavy alliance with the Mu’tazili aqeedah, Al-Zamakhshari propagates the view that by using the word لن here, Allah `azza wa jall is saying that Musa (`alayhisalam) and the creation in general will never see Allah, neither in this world nor in the Hereafter – which is a belief held by the Mu’tazilah. However the correct belief, confirmed by ahadith, is that in the Hereafter the believers in Paradise will be blessed with seeing Allah `azza wa jall (something the Mu’tazilah deny).

Shaykh Salih al-Maghamisi (hafidhahullah) puts this argument on the table and exposes the falsehood of it by bringing forth other verses in the Qur’an which clearly contradict it. The particle لن is for sure one of negation of the future tense, but it does not always imply negation of the Hereafter too as demonstrated below. These verses are an address to the Jews:

قُلْ إِن كَانَتْ لَكُمُ الدَّارُ الآَخِرَةُ عِندَ اللّهِ خَالِصَةً مِّن دُونِ النَّاسِ فَتَمَنَّوُاْ الْمَوْتَ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ

وَ
لَن يَتَمَنَّوْهُ
 أَبَداً بِمَا قَدَّمَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَاللّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِالظَّالِمينَ

Say to (them): “If the home of the Hereafter with
Allah
is indeed for you specially and not for others, of mankind, then long for death if you are truthful.”

But they 
will never
 (لن) long for it because of what their hands have sent before them (i.e. what they have done)…” 
[Al-Baqarah: 94-95]

Now, even though the particle لن is also used here (as well as the emphasis with ‘abadan’), does it mean that the Jews and Christians will never wish for death, even in the Hereafter? Well, no actually it doesn’t. And the answer lies in Soorah al-Zukhruf:

وَنَادَوْا يَا مَالِكُ لِيَقْضِ عَلَيْنَا رَبُّكَ قَالَ إِنَّكُم مَّاكِثُونَ

And they will cry: “O Malik (Keeper of Hell)! 
Let your Lord put an end to us.”
 He will say: “Verily you shall abide forever.”
 [Al-Zukhruf: 77]

 

 

 

I believe - in my view- the verse referring to Musa PBUH never being able to physically visualise Allah swt, and the verses of those not seeking death are entirely different.

 

On one hand, Allah swt places a context of the verse with regards to those who claim to have the truth , if they truly do, would surely seek death no? But Allah swt gives a context: In the world of their corruption/lies deceit, they don't have the truth, therefore so long as they remain in this world before meeting with Allah swt , they will never seek death. Therefore the verse is true to its meaning and context.

 

When Allah swt speaks to Musa PBUH, he tells him that he will never be able to see him. There is no restricted context -unlike in the last verse of this life. Allah swt is simply making a clear statement. He even educates Musa pbuh, and the prophet acknowledges this when waking up from fainting. Allah swt does not say, You wll never see me in this life. He gives a sweeping statement: You will never be able to see me.

 

The argument that we can't see Allah swt in the Dunyah but we can in the Aqirah is also quite a flawed one. This is because if Allah swt willed - he has the power and capacity to show Muhammed pbuh himself during Miraj, and also Musa PBUH if he willed. To state he can not protect Musa PBUH means Allah swt does not want to, or can't.

 

Allah swt , and it is notable to say, does not say, you are not Allowed to see me now. It's a sweeping statement, without any context: You will never see me.

Edited by Tawheed313
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I am glad the discussion had turned to the Quran, rather than proving shia's believe in Allah swt having a form, a confine and limitations. This is the approach you used at the start, but i assure you, from our main hadith books, including Al Kafi, there isn't a single hadith - i have personally checked- in Al Kafi Kitab Al Tawheed, which states he has a form.

 

 

Bismillah wa salatu wa salamu ala rasulullah.

 

Can I give questions in regards to your claims? So basically you reject any source apart from so called main books on ahadeth? I posted hadith which was authenticated by two scholars as least. Old one - author ibn Qawlaveyh, modern one  - al-Muhajir.

 

Therefore, there is no doubt of the plethora of Sahih shia hadiths and the 'Ijmah among shia scholars past and present against Allah swt having any form, moving, changing form, limited, and the human comprehension ever containing him in this life or the next.

 

 

If you really as you claimed read al-Kafi then you have to see ahadeth with clear mujasim beliefs of Hisham ibn Hakam. 

 

1. If we take a literalistic view of the verse, then it literalls means there will be a leg(or shin) that will be uncovered.

There are a number of flaws with this. Firstly, Allah swt himself states there are clear verses in the Quran, and there are allegorical verses: "He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book:others are allegoricalQuran.

 

 

 

Talking about verses or words of Allah I prefer to see original verses from Quran if you don't mind. Where Allah said that there are allegorical verses in the Quran? If you refer to word mutashabih, then allegorical is not proper translation for that.

 

 

Anyway I see you are going far away from the topic which I am ready to debate.

 

Give a single proof from Quran that it is impossible to see Allah.

 

1. Allah swt clearly states, vision can not perceieve him/we can not comprehend him. There is no verse saying 'No one in the Dunyah can see him'.

 

 

 

 

Seeing something and comprehending it two different things. As for underlined in your words, check verses about prophet Musa (a.s). I have posted them here before. It is clear from them, no one can see Allah in this world.

 

 

2. Surah Iklas clearly shows us, Allah swt is one, unified. Therefore he can not have a 'shin' 'face' 'fingers' even if you believe his fingers, face, shin and so on are different to us. To believe Allah swt is made of constituent parts undermines tawheed and his oneness and unity.

 

 

 

 

 

Weird argumentation. 

 

The moment you belive he is in a location, or has a limited form, you make him defined, you make him within the limits of description and comprehension - again totally against rational and Quranic doctrine and belief. You also crush any argument in proving his existence.

 

 

 

I don't believe He is in any location, or He has any limits. But yet again my beliefs doesn't contradicts faith that we can see Him in the doomsday.

 

 

I understand brother, why you would defend these notions. This is because you have hadith in your most authentic books affirming these things. By questioning this belief, we are not questioning the Quran, by hadith intepretations of these verses, and if we can prove those hadiths are not only against Quran, but also tawheed and logic, it brings into disrepute the entire ilm al rijal, seerah of the ahle sunnah understanding of the history of Islam, and will cause great upheaval in the sunni shia polemic.

 

 

 

 

This is completely wrong approach. I don't need any ahadeth to have firm belief in the fact that we can, and inshAllah real believers will see Allah in the hereafter. Because it was proved, by

 

1) Clear cut verses from Quran.

2) Mutawater ahadeth from our beloved prophet (pbuh).

 

 

I believe - in my view- the verse referring to Musa PBUH never being able to physically visualise Allah swt, and the verses of those not seeking death are entirely different.

 

 

 

 

 

I give you a question and I'd like to see simple SHORT answer. Why mountain in the verses of Quran regarding Allah and Musa was destroyed? 

Edited by Abu_Rumaysah
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Question - if anyone of the Muslims, of any sect, believes in `tajseem (giving Allaah عزوجل bodily attributes) - would he be considered a kaafir and not of our Ummah?

 

Nearly all of our current scholars considers mujaseem bakris to be muslims as long they did not reject some basic beliefs about God , however , some like Sheihk Rastaqari considers bakris who say God has a jism kaffirs and impure .

TBH i would do ihtiyat on this subject and redo my wudu if i touched any of them .

 

-- personal opinion is personal --

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Al Kafi


H 261, Ch. 9, h 10- Graded SAHIH by Alama Majlisi


"I asked Imam abul Hassan al-Rida (a.s.), about Allah if He can be described (defined in words). The Imam (a.s.) said, "Have you not read the Quran?" I replied, "Yes, I do read the Quran." He then said, "Have you not read the words of Allah, the Most High, "No mortal eyes can see Him, but He can see all eyes. He is All-kind and All-aware." (6:103) I replied, "Yes, I have read them." The Imam (a.s.) said, "Do they know the meaning of the eyes?" I replied, "Yes, they do." The Imam (a.s.) said, "What is it?" I replied, " It means seeing with the eyes." Then the Imam said, the Awham(mentioned above) of the heart is far greater comprehensive in knowledge than eye-witnessing. It is not able to comprehend Him but He comprehends all things.


 


(One paragraph taken from the hadith) H 253, Ch. 9, h 2  Graded SAHIH by Alama Majlisi


The Imam said, "How can a person who brought such messages to all creatures and told them


that he has brought such messages from Allah and called them to Allah by His commands and said, "The eyes can not comprehend Him." (6:103) "They can not limit Him through their knowledge." (20:110) "There is nothing similar to Him." (42:11), then he would say, "I saw Him with my own eyes? I did limit Him in my knowledge and that He is similar to a man? Should you not be ashamed of yourselves? Even the atheist have not said that the Prophet first brought one thing from Allah and then announced from Him other things contrary to the first."


 Firstly Allah said no MORTAL eyes can see him.We will not be mortal rather immortal for any punishment or bliss.Allah is capable of anything so He can make us capable of seeing Him AT THE DAY OF RESURRECTION.


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Nearly all of our current scholars considers mujaseem bakris to be muslims as long they did not reject some basic beliefs about God , however , some like Sheihk Rastaqari considers bakris who say God has a jism kaffirs and impure .

TBH i would do ihtiyat on this subject and redo my wudu if i touched any of them .

 

-- personal opinion is personal --

 

Dear brother, peace be onto you,

 

Please do not call our sunni brother and sisters 'bakris'. Our brothers in the ahlul sunnah are also classed as muslims, anyone who says the shahadah is.

 

Quran: "Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance."

 

Quran: So by mercy from Allah , [O Muhammad], you were lenient with them. And if you had been rude [in speech] and harsh in heart, they would have disbanded from about you.

 

 

 

Kitab Al Kafi Volume 2 - Affability

 

1847–4. Abū ‘Alī al-Ash‘arī (–) Muḥammad ibn ‘Abdi 'l-Jabbãr (–) Muḥammad ibn Ismã‘īl ibn Bazī‘ (–) Ḥamzah ibn Bazi‘ (–) ‘Abdullãh ibn

Sinãn that Abū ‘Abdillãh (‘a.s.) said:

 

"The Messenger of Allãh (ṣ.a.‘a.w.a.w.s.) said: 'My Lord commanded me to be affable to people as he commanded me to perform my religious

duties.'

صحيح على الظاهر لأن في حمزة كلام

 

 

 

Kitab Al Kafi Volume 2 - On Gentleness

 

1853–4. Muḥammad ibn Yaḥyã (–) Aḥmad ibn Muḥammad ibn ‘Īsã (–) Ibn Maḥbūb (–) Mu‘ãwiyah ibn Wahb (–) Mu‘ãdh ibn Muslim that Abū

‘Abdillãh (‘a.s.) said:

 

"The Messenger of Allãh (ṣ.a.‘a.w.a.w.s.) said: 'Gentleness is good omen and harshness is bad omen.'

Saheeh- Graded by Alama Majlisi

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Peace be with you all,

Shias and Sunnis differ on their concept of Allah swt. As you can see , this difference has arisen from who we take our hadiths from,and who we believe preserved his Sunnah,

Contention one: Can we see Allah swt, comprehend him or limit him in our knowledge?

Bukhari

9.530:

The Prophet said, "You will definitely see your Lord with your own eyes."

9.531:

Allah’s Apostle came out to us on the night of the full moon and said, "You will see your Lord on the Day of Resurrection as you see this (full moon) and you will have no difficulty in seeing Him."

Al Kafi

H 261, Ch. 9, h 10- Graded SAHIH by Alama Majlisi

"I asked Imam abul Hassan al-Rida (a.s.), about Allah if He can be described (defined in words). The Imam (a.s.) said, "Have you not read the Quran?" I replied, "Yes, I do read the Quran." He then said, "Have you not read the words of Allah, the Most High, "No mortal eyes can see Him, but He can see all eyes. He is All-kind and All-aware." (6:103) I replied, "Yes, I have read them." The Imam (a.s.) said, "Do they know the meaning of the eyes?" I replied, "Yes, they do." The Imam (a.s.) said, "What is it?" I replied, " It means seeing with the eyes." Then the Imam said, the Awham(mentioned above) of the heart is far greater comprehensive in knowledge than eye-witnessing. It is not able to comprehend Him but He comprehends all things.

(One paragraph taken from the hadith) H 253, Ch. 9, h 2 Graded SAHIH by Alama Majlisi

The Imam said, "How can a person who brought such messages to all creatures and told them

that he has brought such messages from Allah and called them to Allah by His commands and said, "The eyes can not comprehend Him." (6:103) "They can not limit Him through their knowledge." (20:110) "There is nothing similar to Him." (42:11), then he would say, "I saw Him with my own eyes? I did limit Him in my knowledge and that He is similar to a man? Should you not be ashamed of yourselves? Even the atheist have not said that the Prophet first brought one thing from Allah and then announced from Him other things contrary to the first."

Contention two- Does Allah change states, or undergo change?

Bukhari:

"...What keeps you here when all the people have gone?' They will say, 'We parted with them (in the world) when we were in greater need of them than we are today, we heard the call of one proclaiming, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship,' and now we are waiting for our Lord.' Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation..."

Al Kafi

H 313, Ch. 16, h 4 – Graded Sahih by Alama Majlisi

The Imam said, "There is nothing in the universe, but that is subject to annihilation, alteration, change, decay, transition from one color to another, from one shape to another and from one quality to another. They increase, decrease and change from decrease to increase, except He, Who is the Lord of the worlds. He alone is eternal and in one state. He is the first, before every thing and the last eternally. His attributes and names do not change as they do in the case of others. A man at one time is dust, at other time flesh and blood, then turns into decaying bones and finally becomes dust. A piece of date at one time is raw, at another time ripe, mature and then it dries up. With every change, the names and attributes also change. Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious is different from all such things."

Contention three: Does Allah swt have a form?

Bukhari:

"...What keeps you here when all the people have gone?' They will say, 'We parted with them (in the world) when we were in greater need of them than we are today, we heard the call of one proclaiming, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship,' and now we are waiting for our Lord.' Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation..."

Al Kafi:

Graded Muwathaq

He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام: I heard Hisham b. al-Hakam narrate from you that Allah has a body, supported by light, His recognition is necessary and He bestows this [knowledge] upon whom He wills from the creation. So he عليه السلام said: Glorified be He, whom no one knows how He is except Himself. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing. He cannot be limited, nor can He be felt, nor can He be moved, nor can He be comprehended [by sight, nor by] the senses, nor can He be contained in anything, nor does He have a body, nor does He have a form, nor a figure, nor a confine. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 278)

Contention : Does Allah swt move position?

Bukhari:

1145( Abu Hurairah)

“The Lord (Allah swt) descends every night to the lowest heaven when one-third of the night remains and says: ‘Who will call upon Me, that I may answer Him? Who will ask of Me, that I may give him? Who will seek My forgiveness, that I may forgive him?’”

Man Lā Yaḥḍuruh al-Faqīh, Graded sahih by alama majlisi

‘O son of the Messenger of Allāh, what do you say about the ḥadīth which the people narrate from the Messenger of Allāh, that he said: ‘Allāh descends in every night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night) to the earth’s heavens’’.

He said: ‘May Allāh curse (la`na) those who distort the words from its place, by Allāh, the Messenger of Allāh has not said that! Verily, he said: ‘Allāh) sends down an angel to the earth’s heavens in the last third of every night, and the first part of the night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night). And He commands him to call, ‘Are there any (who) asks, so that I can grant him?’; ‘Are there any repenters that I should forgive him?’;..."

I conclude with the following excerpt of a hadith:

He said: A man came to Abu’l Hasan ar-Rida عليه السلام from beyond the Balkh river and said: I will ask you a question, if your answer to me is the same as that which is with me [i will accept your cause]. So Abu’l Hasan عليه السلام said: Ask whatever you wish. So he said: Inform me about your Lord, when did He come into being? And how is His state? And upon what thing does He rely? So Abu’l Hasan عليه السلام said: Allah تبارك وتعالى was there before there was a “there”, and He was being before there was a “how”, and His reliance is upon His power. So the man rose to him and kissed his head, and said: I bear witness that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and that `Ali is the deputy of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله and the succeeding upholder of what the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله established, and that you are the righteous Imams and the successors after them. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 233) Graded SAHIH by Alama Majlisi

There is written that none from mortals will see Allah, not people from Jannah. If im wrong, correct me but i understood it in that way. :)
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There is written that none from mortals will see Allah, not people from Jannah. If im wrong, correct me but i understood it in that way. :)

 

Allah swt can never be seen by contingent beings, moreso because there is nothing to be seen. It is not our state that stops us from 'seeing' Allah, but the fact Allah swt is not limited, confined, formed, shaped, he is the giver of all shapes and forms and is not limited himself.

 

Himself is a way to express myself in the english language as per norms, rather than 'genderfiying' the almighty. 

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