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To Shias Who Perform Or Support Tatbir/cutting

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Taqlid literally means "to follow (someone)", "to imitate". In Islamic legal terminology it means to follow a mujtahid in religious laws and commandment as he has derived them.

1

Usool -ad-Deen (Roots of Religion):      Taqleed not Required in Faith.

 

Furoo-ad-Deen[Prayer, Fasting, Hajj, Zakat, Khums  ….]: Taqleed Required.

 

We have three opinions regarding Bloodletting Mattam.

 

[1] Some Jurist/Mujtahid have no Opinion.

[2] Some Jurist/Mujtahid allow it.

[3] Some Jurist/Mujtahid do not allow it.

 

If this issue of Bloodletting Mattam during Azadari is a Fiqhi/Legal/Jurisprudence issue. Diversity of opinion would be understood ,as is in the opinion regarding some other Jurisprudence issue.

 

Here, we have “No Opinion” by some Jurists. Should one conclude, that some jurist do not consider it a matter under their jurisdiction.

 

As it is a matter of Faith/Love/Devotion and not of Islamic Law, that needs a Jurists Legal opinion?

 

If this was not the case, would it not be necessary for all Jurists/Mujtahid/ Marja Taqleed to offer their opinion, either permissible or not permissible?

 

[Abstaining from a religious legal ruling, will not be an option. ]

 

Any comments? [ I have no issue with constructive criticism], sweeping under the rug, will not going to solve the bigger issue.

Layman.

 

Blood letters have now produced in 2014 a piece of info saying Ayatullah Sistani has no opinion on blood letting.

 

A few points to note.

For over 20 years they have been claiming he allows it citing as example his counter signature to Ayatullah Naeenis fatwa.

For over 20 years the have not disputed his fatwa about bringing Islam into disrepute

 

Since all this evidence is contradictory i am forced to conclude that the so called new evidence is a gross manipulation of the facts as has been evident in so many cases as I illustrated before.

 

Even in the highly unlikely event we accept this new piece of indirect evidence we would be forced to conclude that Ayatullah Sistani has moved from a position of allowing tatbir to one of neutrality.

 

Hardly a position for the blood letters to be celebrating !!! 

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This type of attitude is wrong to have, you should always question and use your intellect and reason when you are told to do anything. Don't just follow what you are told to do, it's dangerous

 

Why don't you do that yourself first? Or do you follow no scholar / are a mujtahid yourself?  :donno:

 

Taqlid literally means "to follow (someone)", "to imitate". In Islamic legal terminology it means to follow a mujtahid in religious laws and commandment as he has derived them.

1

Usool -ad-Deen (Roots of Religion):      Taqleed not Required in Faith.

 

Furoo-ad-Deen[Prayer, Fasting, Hajj, Zakat, Khums  ….]: Taqleed Required.

 

We have three opinions regarding Bloodletting Mattam.

 

[1] Some Jurist/Mujtahid have no Opinion.

[2] Some Jurist/Mujtahid allow it.

[3] Some Jurist/Mujtahid do not allow it.

 

If this issue of Bloodletting Mattam during Azadari is a Fiqhi/Legal/Jurisprudence issue. Diversity of opinion would be understood ,as is in the opinion regarding some other Jurisprudence issue.

 

Here, we have “No Opinion” by some Jurists. Should one conclude, that some jurist do not consider it a matter under their jurisdiction.

 

As it is a matter of Faith/Love/Devotion and not of Islamic Law, that needs a Jurists Legal opinion?

 

If this was not the case, would it not be necessary for all Jurists/Mujtahid/ Marja Taqleed to offer their opinion, either permissible or not permissible?

 

[Abstaining from a religious legal ruling, will not be an option. ]

 

Any comments? [ I have no issue with constructive criticism], sweeping under the rug, will not going to solve the bigger issue.

Layman.

 

Great post.

 

 

Guys... please refrain from going emotional. Brother wali110 please dear brother please be calm. Lets keep this academic. Things are taking an interesting and scholarly turn here. We see this attack on aza and debate each year after muharram, but if everyone only keep their cool we might make some progress together now.

 

Even in the highly unlikely event we accept this new piece of indirect evidence we would be forced to conclude that Ayatullah Sistani has moved from a position of allowing tatbir to one of neutrality.

 

Hardly a position for the blood letters to be celebrating !!! 

 

No. SMHA's logic is sound. Didn't you read his post? If Sistani is neutral, as they claim, then still they have a point.

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Why don't you do that yourself first? Or do you follow no scholar / are a mujtahid yourself?  :donno:

 

 

Great post.

 

 

Guys... please refrain from going emotional. Brother wali110 please dear brother please be calm. Lets keep this academic. Things are taking an interesting and scholarly turn here. We see this attack on aza and debate each year after muharram, but if everyone only keep their cool we might make some progress together now.

 

No. SMHA's logic is sound. Didn't you read his post? If Sistani is neutral, as they claim, then still they have a point.

 

 

IF Sistani is neutral. Since so much of the evidence blood letters have produced to date has been proven false , incomplete or misleading i think the jury is still out. If anything from your point of view his supposed neutrality counts against you since for so many years you all have been saying he supports it.

 

As I keep saying intellectual dishonesty

 

Highlighted relevant bits

Edited by A true Sunni

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I am in full Control of myself but one does get angered when he is in love with Hussain ibn Ali (as) and for what he gave to save the entire Tree of Islam for you all and then you get a Bunch of small minded Sheep trying to degrade the act of Tatbir/Zanjeer Zani which is simply there to express our love for the tragedy of Kerbala. 

 

It is little to say thank you our Master of Martyrs for you gave your live, your Family, suffered and went through so much pain and If I was allowed to give my life for you would I do so but the least I can and will do is to shed a little Blood to show you just how much I love you my Master.

 

Ya Hussain (as) is King !

 

It does not give Islam a bad name as the majority perform it in concealed places away from the Public Eye and if someone does come across a Video for instance online will they obviously be asking questions to which we should provide them answers with in order to educate them.

 

The same way we are being asked as to why we circulate a Black Box or what Halal Meat is all about etc.

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I am in full Control of myself but one does get angered when he is in love with Hussain ibn Ali (as) and for what he gave to save the entire Tree of Islam for you all and then you get a Bunch of small minded Sheep trying to degrade the act of Tatbir/Zanjeer Zani which is simply there to express our love for the tragedy of Kerbala. 

 

It is little to say thank you our Master of Martyrs for you gave your live, your Family, suffered and went through so much pain and If I was allowed to give my life for you would I do so but the least I can and will do is to shed a little Blood to show you just how much I love you my Master.

 

Ya Hussain (as) is King !

 

It does not give Islam a bad name as the majority perform it in concealed places away from the Public Eye and if someone does come across a Video for instance online will they obviously be asking questions to which we should provide them answers with in order to educate them.

 

The same way we are being asked as to why we circulate a Black Box or what Halal Meat is all about etc.

 

When you thank a person , or wish to show your love you do it in the way that the person wants not how you want.

 

I will give you n example that is easy to understand if you are a married man.

 

It is your wedding aniversary, and your wife dreams of a eternity ring to demonstrate your love and commitment to her for all her hard word and love she has given you.

 

However sentimental fool that you are you buy her a 

 

saucepan set

box of washing powder 

and a box of condoms

 

because this illustrates to you how much she has given you.

 

 

The Imams (as) ask that you show your devotion in the way they want it not the way u want to. Yes when the time come sto give blood give blood but till then save it.

 

Those that died in Iraq this year doing tatbir do you really think any Imam wants to see his followers die needlessly

Edited by A true Sunni

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And you really know how our Imam's wish to thank them ?

 

Like stated previously that it is merely an act for ourselves to express our Love.

 

Nothing more nothing less.

 

It it only a cut to the body to release some blood from ourselves.

 

If you don't like it then close your eyes or go into the other room but I will tell you now that these acts will NEVER EVER come to a stop :-).

 

The discussions and words and fairy thoughts and hatred in this Topic are NOT going to STOP Tatbir and will NEVER STOP Tatbir or Zanjeer Zani !!!

 

It is a Miraculous act that can never come to a Halt !

 

Therefore, the conclusion of the entire Topic is.

 

Tatbir/Zanjeerzani - Wins

 

Anti Tatbir/Zanjeerzani - Loose

 

Nite haterz ;-)

 

Haq (Truth) is Hussain (as) 

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And you really know how our Imam's wish to thank them ?

 

Like stated previously that it is merely an act for ourselves to express our Love.

 

Nothing more nothing less.

 

It it only a cut to the body to release some blood from ourselves.

 

If you don't like it then close your eyes or go into the other room but I will tell you now that these acts will NEVER EVER come to a stop :-).

 

The discussions and words and fairy thoughts and hatred in this Topic are NOT going to STOP Tatbir and will NEVER STOP Tatbir or Zanjeer Zani !!!

 

It is a Miraculous act that can never come to a Halt !

 

Therefore, the conclusion of the entire Topic is.

 

Tatbir/Zanjeerzani - Wins

 

Anti Tatbir/Zanjeerzani - Loose

 

Nite haterz ;-)

 

Haq (Truth) is Hussain (as)

 

Such a small cut people have died from it this year and probably many years before that. Such a small cut so many people were hospitalised due to blood loss.

Such a small cut it brings Islam into disrepute such a small cut that why should babies worry. Such a small cut that people are disgusted and revolted by it.

 

You say that i dont know what the Imams(as) yes you are absolutely right and neither do you . However our mission in life is to find what their wishes are. First step is to emulate their lives not to ascribe to them this vile practice.

 

So what youa re saying to me is that you will buy your wife the saucepans , the washing powder and the condoms because this is what she means to you. How come you didnt reply to that point it was made in all seriousness.

 

I remember the slogan from a few years ago from the malangs 'if they dont let us do Azadari in heaven we will refuse to go there'. Luckily i havent heard it for a few years.

 

This mentality betrays a basic flaw in a persons understanding of Islam.

 

FORGOT TO ASK YOU WHATS SO MIRACULOUS ABOUT CUTTING UR HEAD AND BACK OPEN. i have seen lots of hospitalisation stitches, deaths, etc. Where is the miracle. 

Edited by A true Sunni

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Any relevant comments on point raised in  Post 210?

 

I think I covered it succinctly. Over the years most evidence presented by the blood letters has been found to be suspect , false, incomplete, misleading , even going as far as to tamper with fatwas and insert words.

Over the years I have spent a lot of time and effort debunking a lot of their claims. I have not accepted their version of events because of previous history. So until i research it more fully post 210 is not really relevant.

 

The 'highly regarded student' they are trumpeting about is not a wakeel and as such has only tertiary authority. His direction to go ask Ayatullah Khorasani indicates he is pro-blood letting and as such any statement made by him is suspect. I have summarised the debunked claims higher up.

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A true Sunni you have already been debunked. I have shown to you -

- Alot of maraje` consider tatbeer halaal, including Khorasani.

- I have proven Sayyed al-Sistaani is NEUTRAL but linking you to an OFFICIAL website of his which states he has NO OFFICIAL ruling (translation by Nader Zaveri), you have just been fed pro-IRI propaganda on the Internet.

- The person, Hashim al-Hashimi is respected amongst the maraje`.

- I have proven to you that giants like Naa`eeni and Khu`i support blood letting, even id they add restrictions.

Hardly a position for you to celebrate, since you're yet to refute a point of what was argued.

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1. Azadari is a persian word for mourning, I used it because it's commonly known, and I sincerely thought you knew the word. This word is commonly used for Ahl-el-Bayt -pbut- mourning

2. It's not unrealistic, because it already happened... Look at Iraq and what happened and what led to the baath taking power...

3. This is not so far fetched, even maraje say what i'm saying... I'll ask again a sincere question safana, did you see the videos I posted from the lessons given by Grand Ayatollah Hussain Wahid al-Khorasani -ha-?

4. The difference of me and those who self-harm, is that i'm feeling pain for Ahl-el-Bayt -pbut-, and not for this world (or Dunya if you prefer). And that makes a HUGE difference! There is a moment for everything. There is a moment for learning, a moment for teaching, a moment for mourning, and a moment for crying... It's in your opinion that people that practice tatbir gives a bad reputation for Islam, i don't believe so. Therefore it is haram for you, not haram for me. As i said, it's an expression of grief, and everybody grieve differently...

 

I could defer someone from Islam because I say that men are allowed to marry 4 women permanently, or that they can marry as much as they want temporarily. You can't just satisfy everyone...

Let it be my fault. On your side, you have prevented muslims for mourning Imam Husayn -pbuh-, from practicing ADORATION, like when you push a muslim during the tawaf around the kaaba... That will be YOUR fault. That would even be more risky... And of course as you, i'm just reminding you of the risks your taking... That's why i'm putting my responsability on my marjaa, not on yours; and you put your responsability on your marjaa, not on mine. So why in the world do you want to impose YOUR views and YOUR taqlid (which i don't follow) on ME and OTHERS?

 

 

1. No i did not know the word (im an arab)- thanks for expaining

2. The baath taking power was not because of people stopping Tatbir- my argument is that it is unrealistic for banning tatbir to have a direct impact . The baath occured due to various factors- it was a political system that had risen against Islam- and not because people stopped doing Tatbir.

3. I did not watch the vids (what ones are you referring to- this is a long thread), but im justing thinking for myself and it doesnt seem that stopping Tatbir will stop the message of Ahlu-albyt spreading-im just being realistic.

4. Hmmmmm, what do you mean "it is haram for me".- as in i consider it Haram.

I still dont agree with what you said here- mourning doesnt mean causing so much harm to yourself- if anything, the purpose of mourning (referring to mourning for Ahlulbayt) is to reflect on our own character (our patience, our determination, our attitudes during hard times) and serves to remind us what we're really here for and where we should direct our lives.

5. There are legitimate reasons behind those things u listed (polygamy, etc), Tatbir,however, is far too violent and visually disturbing for it to appeal to anyone.

 

Ok calm down- Stop making it seem as  though im trying to "force" my opinions- im just stating them and justifying them. If you and others dont agree- then so be it.

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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته - May peace be upon you as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings
اللّهم صلّ على محمّد وآل محمّد - O Allah please pray upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad
بسم الله الرّحمن الرّحبم - Thanks to the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

أسعد الله أيامكم بذكرى مولد خير خلق الله محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم - May Allah grant you happy days for the souvenir of the birth of Best of Allah's Creations, Muhammad may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his family

 

1. No i did not know the word (im an arab)- thanks for expaining

2. The baath taking power was not because of people stopping Tatbir- my argument is that it is unrealistic for banning tatbir to have a direct impact . The baath occured due to various factors- it was a political system that had risen against Islam- and not because people stopped doing Tatbir.

3. I did not watch the vids (what ones are you referring to- this is a long thread), but im justing thinking for myself and it doesnt seem that stopping Tatbir will stop the message of Ahlu-albyt spreading-im just being realistic.

4. Hmmmmm, what do you mean "it is haram for me".- as in i consider it Haram.

I still dont agree with what you said here- mourning doesnt mean causing so much harm to yourself- if anything, the purpose of mourning (referring to mourning for Ahlulbayt) is to reflect on our own character (our patience, our determination, our attitudes during hard times) and serves to remind us what we're really here for and where we should direct our lives.

5. There are legitimate reasons behind those things u listed (polygamy, etc), Tatbir,however, is far too violent and visually disturbing for it to appeal to anyone.

 

Ok calm down- Stop making it seem as  though im trying to "force" my opinions- im just stating them and justifying them. If you and others dont agree- then so be it.

 

1. you're welcome

2. if someone want to rise against islam, he must first start forbidding the most extremist behaviour (like Niqab/Pooshiye in France, etc...) then he attacks the core... Got it? Do you think the baath party started banning marches to Imam Husayn -pbuh- straight away? No, they did it gradually, by trying to convince people like:

  • why do you make tatbir? just make latum, that's enough and avoid having blood around
  • why do you make latum? just sit down and listen the mejliss and listen to the shaikh, no need to hurt your body
  • why do you go to the mejliss and listen to the shaikh? just listen this university professor, it's more intellectual

It will end up like:

  • it's recommended to fast for Ashura!

3. So you want the people supporting tatbir to listen to the opposing side arguments, but it's strange that the people opposing tatbir does not listen to the opposing side arguments... that's a strange trend...

4. I totally disaggree with you, mourning is mourning, expressing sadness, grief: crying, hitting oneself with hands, chains, swords... Beside the process of mourning, we have the time to reflect: listen to majalis, read quran, read duas, reflect... I consider there is a time for crying and a time for reflection

5. Violent to you, not to me... Visually disturbing to you, not to me. It appeals to me, it doesn't appeals to you...

 

Everybody does his applying to taqlid. I've learnt from a trusted person that Grand Ayatollah [name hidden to avoid false accusations against me] -ha- and Grand Ayatollah [name hidden to avoid false accusations against me] -ha- are the most knowledgeable alive maraje of our era, so i'd definitely think in the same reflection of [name of scholar who gave his opinion] -ha-. thus considering tatbir as allowed and that there is no problem with it with restrictions of both place and time together.

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته - And upon you be peace as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

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"mourning is mourning, expressing sadness, grief: crying, hitting oneself with hands, chains, swords..."

No it is not.Mourning is not how u define it.It is rather something which is known in human nature as crying,weiling and beating legs or chest if u are very sad and desperate.

But no one no where cuts his head when his beloved have died.No prophet ever did no imam in fact no human did it except a group of catholics and a group of shias.So don't define it as if it is a usual sign or act of mourning of humans when it is not.

Only cuz something is not forbidden,within in the rules of the fatawa,doesn't make it islamic.It is an innovation and it is agreed upon it by the scholars.It has no roots in islam cuz it occurred later.

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^^^ So confident, calling it an innovation and something to scholars agree on. Do you know what innovation is? Do you know innovation is Haraam Mutlaqan, are you telling me scholars are allowing innovation?

Innovation in Islaam is not defined by how you're seeing it - an innovation for example would be to change something, add or take away something from the Sharia or Islam.

Blood letting is not FORBIDDEN - mourning for Husayn (a.s) is mustahaab!

BTW - letting your blood out was a Sunnah of Rasul-Allaah (s.w.t), it is known as hijaamah! It is agreed upon by SUNNIS and SHIA, it is used for MEDICAL purposes. I'm not trying to do Qiyaas here - but if you find blood letting ugly then hijaama which is a Sunnah must be ugly for you aswell.

Edited by Revolving Ace

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Read this as i got it from someone without reference but it have a little logic for a time.

=======================================

 

At the time of Aurangzeb he was against Hindus as well as Shias. He forced to stop all kind of Procession and whoever was trying to do he punished them even arrest them or killed them. After 1-2 Decade some youth decided to start procession , and they made knife edged chains which they start beating on there back, few guys took Alam of Hazrat Abbas and few was doing Tatbir. Army man of Aurangzeb got shocked as the ultimate Psychological pressure of torture was removed. And this way Tatbir came into existence in South India. But bcoz now it is peaceful climate so practicing same thing have no logic.

Edited by alirex

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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته - May peace be upon you as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings
اللّهم صلّ على محمّد وآل محمّد - O Allah please pray upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad
بسم الله الرّحمن الرّحبم - Thanks to the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

أسعد الله أيامكم بذكرى مولد خير خلق الله محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم - May Allah grant you happy days for the souvenir of the birth of Best of Allah's Creations, Muhammad may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his family

 

i'll quote myself again and ask the people mentioned in my post #109

 

Persian subtitled in English:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gTTW1WNWfw

 

Persian subtitled in Arabic:

 

To all Anti-Tatbir people here: i challenge you to watch the videos of Grand Ayatollah Shaikh Husayn Wahid al-Khorasani -ha- i just posted above.

 

I'm curious to see your reactions about it, at least watch it and say you disaggree... But watch it!

 

I'm curious to see reactions of mina313, alirex, A true Sunni, safana, Tawheed313...

 

As far as i know just A true Sunni have watched a bit of it... For the others, they say they didn't watch it (unless i didn't see their answers, forgive me then and just show me your answers)...

 

It's Grand Ayatollah Husayn Wahid al-Khorasani -ha-, he's one of the most knowledgeable Maraje al-Taqlid -ha- if not the most knowledgeable himself...

 

Listen to what he says, and react!

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته - And upon you be peace as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته - May peace be upon you as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

اللّهم صلّ على محمّد وآل محمّد - O Allah please pray upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad

بسم الله الرّحمن الرّحبم - Thanks to the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

أسعد الله أيامكم بذكرى مولد خير خلق الله محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم - May Allah grant you happy days for the souvenir of the birth of Best of Allah's Creations, Muhammad may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his family

 

i'll quote myself again and ask the people mentioned in my post #109

 

 

As far as i know just A true Sunni have watched a bit of it... For the others, they say they didn't watch it (unless i didn't see their answers, forgive me then and just show me your answers)...

 

It's Grand Ayatollah Husayn Wahid al-Khorasani -ha-, he's one of the most knowledgeable Maraje al-Taqlid -ha- if not the most knowledgeable himself...

 

Listen to what he says, and react!

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته - And upon you be peace as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

I presume you have listened to it because i have listened to it and can find no endorsement of blood letting. So my action to you where is his endorsement of blood letting. Please reply quickly

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I presume you have listened to it because i have listened to it and can find no endorsement of blood letting. So my action to you where is his endorsement of blood letting. Please reply quickly

Lol. I already posted a written fatwaa` from the Shaykh in which it says he support Na`eeni's views.

Edited by Revolving Ace

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Read this as i got it from someone without reference but it have a little logic for a time.

=======================================

 

At the time of Aurangzeb he was against Hindus as well as Shias. He forced to stop all kind of Procession and whoever was trying to do he punished them even arrest them or killed them. After 1-2 Decade some youth decided to start procession , and they made knife edged chains which they start beating on there back, few guys took Alam of Hazrat Abbas and few was doing Tatbir. Army man of Aurangzeb got shocked as the ultimate Psychological pressure of torture was removed. And this way Tatbir came into existence in South India. But bcoz now it is peaceful climate so practicing same thing have no logic.

 

That would put it at 500 years ago. Only evidence from blood letting is 200 years. The Brits mention Moharram in their writings and processions but never blood letting

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Lol. I already posted a written fatwaa` from the Shaykh in which it says he support Na`eeni's views.

 

Naeenis fatwa is grossly misrepresented as i pointed out before but you chose to ignore. Ignoring my post and just repeating adnauseum the same lines does not make u right.

Would help if you blood letters actually red your evidence occasionally

^^^ So confident, calling it an innovation and something to scholars agree on. Do you know what innovation is? Do you know innovation is Haraam Mutlaqan, are you telling me scholars are allowing innovation?

Innovation in Islaam is not defined by how you're seeing it - an innovation for example would be to change something, add or take away something from the Sharia or Islam.

Blood letting is not FORBIDDEN - mourning for Husayn (a.s) is mustahaab!

BTW - letting your blood out was a Sunnah of Rasul-Allaah (s.w.t), it is known as hijaamah! It is agreed upon by SUNNIS and SHIA, it is used for MEDICAL purposes. I'm not trying to do Qiyaas here - but if you find blood letting ugly then hijaama which is a Sunnah must be ugly for you aswell.

 

this is Qiyaas

Above does not constitute a relevant comment on post 210.

it does 100%. creating a view point from a case of 'if' is irrelevant

A true Sunni you have already been debunked. I have shown to you -

- Alot of maraje` consider tatbeer halaal, including Khorasani.

- I have proven Sayyed al-Sistaani is NEUTRAL but linking you to an OFFICIAL website of his which states he has NO OFFICIAL ruling (translation by Nader Zaveri), you have just been fed pro-IRI propaganda on the Internet.

- The person, Hashim al-Hashimi is respected amongst the maraje`.

- I have proven to you that giants like Naa`eeni and Khu`i support blood letting, even id they add restrictions.

Hardly a position for you to celebrate, since you're yet to refute a point of what was argued.

 

as i point out repeatedly . you havent proven a thing from the vid clip and the support of Nader.

 

Al Khui disallows it if it brings Islam into disrepute

Naeeni cannot be asked in the circumstance Islam is besmirced can you do it

Khorasani is mostly talking about Azadari and doesnt mention blood letiing

 

so dont know what you keep crowing about . Read and watch your own evidence first

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Naeenis fatwa is grossly misrepresented as i pointed out before but you chose to ignore. Ignoring my post and just repeating adnauseum the same lines does not make u right.

Would help if you blood letters actually red your evidence occasionally

this is Qiyaas

it does 100%. creating a view point from a case of 'if' is irrelevant

HAHAHAHA, just where I expected your level of knowledge to be.

1 - You have yet to provide ANY proof regarding Na`eeni's fatwaa - you're trying to play around what is already obvious, which is - Na`eeni allows blood to be spilled for al-Husayn (a.s) provided you follow the guidelines which are in the fatwaa` - a five year old would understand this.

2 - You accuse me of Qiyaas? I wasn't even trying to prove anything in that comment that would try to prove tatbeer from a Fiqhi perspective. I was trying to argue from the emotional side of things (which you anti-tatbeeris tend to do) since you seem to get a shock if you someone spilling his blood. So if you find tatbeer ugly because you dislike the sight of blood, then you must dislike hijaamah aswell (I'm arguing from the emotional point of view, not the Fiqhi perspective).

You have contributed near to zero in this discussion, whilst I've provided sources in every arguement which I've stated.

Edited by Revolving Ace

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HAHAHAHA, just where I expected your level of knowledge to be.

1 - You have yet to provide ANY proof regarding Na`eeni's fatwaa - you're trying to play around what is already obvious, which is - Na`eeni allows blood to be spilled for al-Husayn (a.s) provided you follow the guidelines which are in the fatwaa` - a five year old would understand this.

2 - You accuse me of Qiyaas? I wasn't even trying to prove anything in that comment that would try to prove tatbeer from a Fiqhi perspective. I was trying to argue from the emotional side of things (which you anti-tatbeeris tend to do) since you seem to get a shock if you someone spilling his blood. So if you find tatbeer ugly because you dislike the sight of blood, then you must dislike hijaamah aswell (I'm arguing from the emotional point of view, not the Fiqhi perspective).

You have contributed near to zero in this discussion, whilst I've provided sources in every arguement which I've stated.

 

 

PROOF read it its self explanatory

All your sources are tainted with blood letters logic and aversion to truth so hardly admissable. 

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more fool you for posting 'evidence' and it quite clearly says otherwise. You spend so long lying to yourselves you forget others can read as well

I'm still waiting for you to offer anything to the discussion. Only Haideriam has offered reasonable and non-emotional arguements - but even then, there has been no proof against the hurma` of tatbeer.

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That would put it at 500 years ago. Only evidence from blood letting is 200 years. The Brits mention Moharram in their writings and processions but never blood letting

I mentioned it have no reference to proof, i got that story from my whatsapp guy which gives a little sense. But that doesn't mean to follow that practice in peaceful time so when Britishers came they left that practice. I never practice Tatbir but i am always giving Blood donation at Arbaeen Camp. Who don't want to sacrifice life for Imam Hussain(as) ? but i want to sacrifice whatever i have in such a manner it make Imam proud on his follower.

 

I guess we are reacting harsh with Tatbir guys, we have to be more polite with them. And conveying message is our work if someone is not in mood to follow its all his own problem.

Edited by alirex

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I'm still waiting for you to offer anything to the discussion. Only Haideriam has offered reasonable and non-emotional arguements - but even then, there has been no proof against the hurma` of tatbeer.

haideriam has the patience of a saint.

 

However all i see is lies misinterpretation, distortions in ur posts. This isnt emotional its true. You havent proven anything because I reject your evidence until I verify it independently.I  base this  on all previous experience of the distortions that you blood letters perpetrate. Do you really expect any rational person to accept any evidence submitted by a blood letter considering how much has ben proven to be faulty.

 

You say this emotional. Well yes it is emotional. I hate people who play hard and fast with the truth.

 

I have been warned i can no longer call fellow members liars . So all i can say is is that you are severley mistaken 

I mentioned it have no reference to proof, i got that story from my whatsapp guy which gives a little sense. But that doesn't mean to follow that practice in peaceful time so when Britishers came they left that practice. I never practice Tatbir but i am always giving Blood donation at Arbaeen Camp. Who don't want to sacrifice life for Imam Hussain(as) ? but i want to sacrifice whatever i have in such a manner it make Imam proud on his follower.

 

I guess we are reacting harsh with Tatbir guys, we have to be more polite with them. And conveying message is our work if someone is not in mood to follow its all his own problem.

 

No i wasnt criticising you or even accusing the British. I am just pointing out that British and European explorers have seem the Moharram rituals all over the Islamic world .

 

However none mention it before 150-200 years. Blood letting has such an impact I am sure somone would have written about it.

 

Only mention is from about 150years  mentioning 200 Turkish Shias doing tatbir and after that it took of despite resistence from the clergy.

 

Someone else posted a reference to it. If that someone has it it would be appreciated 

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Kipling describes Moharram in India. Kipling was the Victorian era. No mention of blood letting just processions, speeches, chest beating and calls of Ya Hussain.

 

A paragraph on Sikh history during Maharajah Ranjit Singh only mentions chest beating and Ya Hussain

 

will keep on looking and post it.

 

1400 year old practice rubbish


Brown mentions self inflicted wounds in book 'literary history of Persia' published 1902

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Do not call an act of Sacrifice for Hussain  (as) rubbish just because you do not abide by it for you have no true knowledge in regards to it.

 

Sacrifice for Imam Hussain  (as) has been going on sine the say our beloved Imam  (as) was Martyred and you cannot disprove it.

 

Just because you might only have recorded history of Tatbir and Zanjeer Zani for the past 200 years does not mean that it came into existence then.

 

People have always given and sacrificed for our beloved Imam and those People are known to be true devoted lovers of the Imam  (as).

 

There was an era where People use to get their Hands chopped off as a payment in order to be allowed to simply visit the Holy Shrine out of the love that tey had for the Imam  (as).

 

But I am sure that someone with a darkened Heart like yourselves would have also go full on against such acts as you have never found it to be recommended in any of your "How to live a live books" !

 

Grow up !

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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته - May peace be upon you as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

اللّهم صلّ على محمّد وآل محمّد - O Allah please pray upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad

بسم الله الرّحمن الرّحبم - Thanks to the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

أسعد الله أيامكم بذكرى مولد خير خلق الله محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم - May Allah grant you happy days for the souvenir of the birth of Best of Allah's Creations, Muhammad may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his family

 

 

1. you're welcome

2. if someone want to rise against islam, he must first start forbidding the most extremist behaviour (like Niqab/Pooshiye in France, etc...) then he attacks the core... Got it? Do you think the baath party started banning marches to Imam Husayn -pbuh- straight away? No, they did it gradually, by trying to convince people like:

  • why do you make tatbir? just make latum, that's enough and avoid having blood around
  • why do you make latum? just sit down and listen the mejliss and listen to the shaikh, no need to hurt your body
  • why do you go to the mejliss and listen to the shaikh? just listen this university professor, it's more intellectual

It will end up like:

  • it's recommended to fast for Ashura!

3. So you want the people supporting tatbir to listen to the opposing side arguments, but it's strange that the people opposing tatbir does not listen to the opposing side arguments... that's a strange trend...

4. I totally disaggree with you, mourning is mourning, expressing sadness, grief: crying, hitting oneself with hands, chains, swords... Beside the process of mourning, we have the time to reflect: listen to majalis, read quran, read duas, reflect... I consider there is a time for crying and a time for reflection

5. Violent to you, not to me... Visually disturbing to you, not to me. It appeals to me, it doesn't appeals to you...

 

Everybody does his applying to taqlid. I've learnt from a trusted person that Grand Ayatollah [name hidden to avoid false accusations against me] -ha- and Grand Ayatollah [name hidden to avoid false accusations against me] -ha- are the most knowledgeable alive maraje of our era, so i'd definitely think in the same reflection of [name of scholar who gave his opinion] -ha-. thus considering tatbir as allowed and that there is no problem with it with restrictions of both place and time together.

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته - And upon you be peace as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

2. Look but we're not stupid- Do you seriously think that people will just blindly stop doing the things u listed (latim, attending majalis, etc.) The chain of events u listed is unlikely to occur if tatbir is banned- especially if it is done by religious leaders themselves. Anyway- it doesnt have to be formally 'banned' for people to stop doing it.

3.No, i asked you what vid you were reffering to because there were so many on this thread. Im not going to search through 10 pages for 1 vid.

4. Mourning= grief and crying , yes. But not the extremes to harming yourself to THAT extent.  your body was a gift, respect it.

5.Okay- suit yourself.

 

Im done with this thread- it just keeps on going in circles and it seems that everyones  going to stand their  grounds and this argument will be endless.

 

wa as-salamu alaykum.

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Do not call an act of Sacrifice for Hussain  (as) rubbish just because you do not abide by it for you have no true knowledge in regards to it.

 

Sacrifice for Imam Hussain  (as) has been going on sine the say our beloved Imam  (as) was Martyred and you cannot disprove it.

 

Just because you might only have recorded history of Tatbir and Zanjeer Zani for the past 200 years does not mean that it came into existence then.

 

People have always given and sacrificed for our beloved Imam and those People are known to be true devoted lovers of the Imam  (as).

 

There was an era where People use to get their Hands chopped off as a payment in order to be allowed to simply visit the Holy Shrine out of the love that tey had for the Imam  (as).

 

But I am sure that someone with a darkened Heart like yourselves would have also go full on against such acts as you have never found it to be recommended in any of your "How to live a live books" !

 

Grow up !

 

Your post bores me especially since it is full of historical inaccuracies, false accusation and wild polemics. Do you really think your wild emotional diatribe will change the truth of your statements.

A lie is still a lie, falsehood remains unchanged and truth will bear the brunt of time.

All you really demonstrate is that you havent even stepped on the first rung of the ladder to enlightenment. I mentioned intellectual dishonesty before. It appears that you are one of the ones that the intellectually dishonest lead so at least be grateful for that

 

 

Everybody does his applying to taqlid. I've learnt from a trusted person that Grand Ayatollah [name hidden to avoid false accusations against me] -ha- and Grand Ayatollah [name hidden to avoid false accusations against me] -ha- are the most knowledgeable alive maraje of our era, so i'd definitely think in the same reflection of [name of scholar who gave his opinion] -ha-. thus considering tatbir as allowed and that there is no problem with it with restrictions of both place and time together.

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته - And upon you be peace as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

 

After post 176 in which you claimed that Ayatullah Najafi supported blood letting only to be proved conclusively false I see you are resorting to the I am not telling you the names of the people but they definitely support it.

 

What kind of fool do you take people for. And you wonder why nobody accepts any statement from a blood letter until it is independently checked and verified

Edited by A true Sunni

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