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In the Name of God بسم الله

To Shias Who Perform Or Support Tatbir/cutting

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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته - May peace be upon you as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings
اللّهم صلّ على محمّد وآل محمّد - O Allah please pray upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad
بسم الله الرّحمن الرّحبم - Thanks to the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

أسعد الله أيامكم بذكرى مولد خير خلق الله محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم - May Allah grant you happy days for the souvenir of the birth of Best of Allah's Creations, Muhammad may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his family

 

Here comes the problem brother,it would be easy to say they are insane but they say we have fatawa and it is part of azadari and Islam.That is the problem,not someone doing something which only affects him.

 

Sister Mina313 (i suppose you're a sister and please forgive me if I'm wrong)...

 

I've had people who practiced tatbir and they come from families of Ulema, and personally know one for example who comes from a very scholarly iraqi/iranian family, whose maternal uncle is one of the 4 big Maraje al-Taqlid (emulation authorities) in Najaf and he told me himself that there is istihbab and he showed me pictures of hawza students and scholar families and scholars themselves while doing tatbir after they did it...

 

 

Grand Ayatollah Shaikh Bashir Hussain al-Najafi clearly says in this video:

 

 

الذي يمنعك، قول له ما أطبر راسك، أطبر راسي... طبّر ثم طبّر ثم طبّر

 

translation:

 

 

"One who wants to oppose you [regarding tatbir], answer him: i'm not doing tatbir on you, i'm doing tatbir on me... [Orders] Do Tatbir then do tatbir then make tatbir".

 

http://www.alhakeem.com/arabic/pages/quesans/listgroup_ques.php?Where=301

 

Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Muhammad Saeed al-Hakim answers on his website on answering a question about the Tuwairij Run where the question claims that there are accidents and 40 (yes forty!) people have fallen martyrs:

 

 

س13:  ركضة ( طويريج ) معروفه عند العراقيين خصوصاً ، و هو عزاء يقام يوم العاشر من المحرم ، حيث تأتي أفواج الناس من قضاء ( طويريج ) الذي يبعد أربعة فراسخ عن مدينة كربلاء المقدسة ( على مشرِّفها آلاف التحية والثناء ) يأتون مهرولين ، حتّى يصلوا إلى حرم سيد الشهداء الإمام الحسين بن علي ( عليهما السلام ) . ثم يخرجون إلى حرم أبي الفضل العباس ( عليه السلام ) ، حفاة ، باكين ، شعث غُبْر ، يندبون مولاهم الحسين ( عليه السلام ) . فما هو رأي سماحتكم في عزاء طويريج ؟ وبالحوادث التي تقع فيه حيث أنه ذات مرّة سقط بعض الأشخاص على الأرض ، فداستهم الجموع بالأرجل ، فحدثت مأساة فضيعة راح ضحيتها أكثر من أربعين شهيداً عند باب الحرم الحسيني ؟ـ

 

ج13:  الشعائر الحسينية من أفضل القربات وأجلّ الطاعات إذا خلصت من الرياء ، ونحوه مما قد يشوب الأعمال الصالحة أو يفسدها ، ومجرد وقوع حادث مؤسف في أثناء بعض الشعائر لا يلغي دورها ، ولا يقلل من شأنها ، وإلا للزم تعطيل فريضة الحج لتكرر وقوع الحوادث فيها .ـ

 

 translation:

 

Question: The (Tuwairij) run is known especially between iraqis, and it is a mourning act done on the 10th day of Muharram, where groups of people from the neighborhood (of Tuwairij) which is 4 farsakh far from the city of Holy Karbala [around 22 kms] come running, till they arrive to the Shrine of the Master of Martyrs Imam al-Husayn ibn Ali -pbut-. Then they go out to the Shrine of Abul-Fadhl al-Abbas -pbuh-, barefooted, crying, dusted, complaining for their master al-Husayn -pbuh-. What is your Eminence's opinion about the mourning of Tuwairij? And about the accidents that happen as more than once some person falls on the ground, and the groups of people step on them, and there was once a horrible tragedy where more than 40 people fell martyr on the door of the Husayni Shrine?

 

Answer: The Husayni Symbols are from the best of adorations and most significant acts of obedience if it is done without insincerity, and whatever taints the good actions or corrupts them. And if there is a regrettable accident during some of the Symbols, this [accident] does not cancel its [symbols] role, and does not decrease its [symbol] importance. If then, we are obligated to stop the Hajj for all the accidents that happens there...

 

Regarding the fabrication of the Husayni Symbols, many of them are fabricated, like peaceful march in the west... Has it always been like that? Same as Tuwairij Run... Many of them...

 

Regarding blood donation, isn't that a fabricated thing?

 

Tatbir is one thing, blood donation is another... One can do both!

 

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته - And upon you be peace as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته - May peace be upon you as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

اللّهم صلّ على محمّد وآل محمّد - O Allah please pray upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad

بسم الله الرّحمن الرّحبم - Thanks to the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

أسعد الله أيامكم بذكرى مولد خير خلق الله محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم - May Allah grant you happy days for the souvenir of the birth of Best of Allah's Creations, Muhammad may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his family

 

 

Sister Mina313 (i suppose you're a sister and please forgive me if I'm wrong)...

 

I've had people who practiced tatbir and they come from families of Ulema, and personally know one for example who comes from a very scholarly iraqi/iranian family, whose maternal uncle is one of the 4 big Maraje al-Taqlid (emulation authorities) in Najaf and he told me himself that there is istihbab and he showed me pictures of hawza students and scholar families and scholars themselves while doing tatbir after they did it...

 

 

Grand Ayatollah Shaikh Bashir Hussain al-Najafi clearly says in this video:

 

 

translation:

 

 

http://www.alhakeem.com/arabic/pages/quesans/listgroup_ques.php?Where=301

 

Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Muhammad Saeed al-Hakim answers on his website on answering a question about the Tuwairij Run where the question claims that there are accidents and 40 (yes forty!) people have fallen martyrs:

 

 

 translation:

 

Regarding the fabrication of the Husayni Symbols, many of them are fabricated, like peaceful march in the west... Has it always been like that? Same as Tuwairij Run... Many of them...

 

Regarding blood donation, isn't that a fabricated thing?

 

Tatbir is one thing, blood donation is another... One can do both!

 

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته - And upon you be peace as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

 

 

Ayatullah Najafi very clearly says on his fatwa if blood letting brings Islam into disrepute dont do it.

 

Why do you blood letters persistently mislead people. Yet again another example of you blood letters misleading people

 

3 words allowing it and then 5 lines outlining the circumstances its not allowed including bringing Islam into disrepute

 

http://www.alnajafi.org/questions-and-answers/40-fiqh/58-question-on-qama-and-zanjeer-zani.html

 

How can anybody trust the word of the blood letter when the lies are so apparent

It should be confined bleeding, without harming the skull bones, nor causing excessive bleeding, the same way as experienced and trained people do.

- Na`eeni

And if one follows this ruling, what would be your COMPLAINT?

I have already confirmed he said that ...

my complaint is that blood letters amongst you have said that Ayatullah Naeenni has said it is mustahab. Far from it being mustahab it is apparent that he his urging caution and a very grudging acceptance. The practice of tatbir is now a free for all with several reorted deaths and many hospitalised in Iraq this year. In addition to that Ayatullah Naeenni allowed it when the practice's detrimental effect on the Image on Islam wasnt known. So you should only consult living marje. I have already demonstarted that Najafi does not allow it in the way you are conducting it. Pandoras box has been opened and as such you cannot do it anywhere if a marje bans it on disrepute basis

 

If anything it says it should be regulated

Edited by A true Sunni
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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته - May peace be upon you as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings
اللّهم صلّ على محمّد وآل محمّد - O Allah please pray upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad
بسم الله الرّحمن الرّحبم - Thanks to the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

أسعد الله أيامكم بذكرى مولد خير خلق الله محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم - May Allah grant you happy days for the souvenir of the birth of Best of Allah's Creations, Muhammad may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his family

 

Just to straighten out the points: i totally aggree with those fatwas. I won't walk around in a western city hitting my head with a sword. But i would eventually do it in Damascus, Kadhimiyya, Mashhad, Qum, Najaf, and especially Karbala. It all comes down to the urf. Because the western world does not accept polygyny, should we forbid it? Should we stop practicing it when possible?

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته - And upon you be peace as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

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If one muslim strikes his head in public in the name of Islam and declares it as an islamic ritual,then he strikes not only his head but of other muslims, too.This is the main problem i see, along with fatawa misinterpretation or using fatawa of dead maraji' who were making them under the shah or under Saddam,may they be cursed.

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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته - May peace be upon you as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

اللّهم صلّ على محمّد وآل محمّد - O Allah please pray upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad

بسم الله الرّحمن الرّحبم - Thanks to the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

أسعد الله أيامكم بذكرى مولد خير خلق الله محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم - May Allah grant you happy days for the souvenir of the birth of Best of Allah's Creations, Muhammad may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his family

 

Just to straighten out the points: i totally aggree with those fatwas. I won't walk around in a western city hitting my head with a sword. But i would eventually do it in Damascus, Kadhimiyya, Mashhad, Qum, Najaf, and especially Karbala. It all comes down to the urf. Because the western world does not accept polygyny, should we forbid it? Should we stop practicing it when possible?

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته - And upon you be peace as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

 

Have you heard of pandoras box

Have you heard of globalisation of media

 

May I ask you why you didnt seek to straighten out these points until irrefutable proof was provided.

 

BTW they dont allow you to practice tatbir or zanjeer zani on many western streets and certainly in uk are seeking to ban it in pvt as well so thats hardly a concession on your part.

 

So how do you close pandoras box with all its evils inside solve that problem and u can do it till the cows come home in the privacy of your own home.

 

AS to your point about scholars families, may I remind you of Noahs son just as a tiny example 

Lets summarise the discussion so far and in fact all the other so called peices of evidence over the years.

 

Hz Uwais Qarni               Sunni narration and even they are now casting doubt on it 

Hz Bibi Zainab                 Sunni narration and inconsistencies in narration ie all the lady folk were veiled in Kufa market

Ayatullah Najafi               does not support if Islam image harmed

Aytaullah Naeeni             Deceased does not support blood letting , grudging allowance of tatbir (not mustahab)

Ayatullah Shirazi              Allows it mustahab

Ayatullah Khorasani         no evidence supplied that he supports its. Vid clip is about azadari

Ayatullah Seestani            Contradictory evidence 

Scholars family                  irrelevant

non Marja scholars            irrelevant

 

considering all the misrepresentation of events and fatwas as indicated i am forced to the conclusion that the evidence provided for Ayatullah Seestani neutrality is highly suspect in the form that its is provided. ie there is more to the story then has been provided just as in the case of all the other examples

Edited by A true Sunni
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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته - May peace be upon you as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings
اللّهم صلّ على محمّد وآل محمّد - O Allah please pray upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad
بسم الله الرّحمن الرّحبم - Thanks to the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

أسعد الله أيامكم بذكرى مولد خير خلق الله محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم - May Allah grant you happy days for the souvenir of the birth of Best of Allah's Creations, Muhammad may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his family

 

Where I disaggree with you is you talk about globalisation of media... I aggree, but each place have it's own urf. And the urf of these places change...

 

The scholars leave it up to the urf interpretation to see if it gives a bad image or not... If it gave a bad image in islamic countries, the scholars would have advised against not for it, as i've heard from my own ears or as you see from.Grand Ayatollah Shaikh Bashir Husayn al-Najafi -ha- in the video.

 

Trust me these scholars know very well what's going on in the world, and they are keeping in touch. They need it, to give answers to the modern questions مستحدثات. And for myself I trust our maraje to guide us to keep islam safe.

 

I'll repeat myself, if Islam's image is harmed, they would have already spoken against it.

 

In the end, you do as you want according to your taqlid, we do as we want according to ours. Don't attack us, and don't disrespect us, and don't disrespect our taqlid... Did i say otherwise?

 

Unless if you want to impose the taqlid you do upon the others...

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته - And upon you be peace as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته - May peace be upon you as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

اللّهم صلّ على محمّد وآل محمّد - O Allah please pray upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad

بسم الله الرّحمن الرّحبم - Thanks to the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

أسعد الله أيامكم بذكرى مولد خير خلق الله محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم - May Allah grant you happy days for the souvenir of the birth of Best of Allah's Creations, Muhammad may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his family

 

Where I disaggree with you is you talk about globalisation of media... I aggree, but each place have it's own urf. And the urf of these places change...

 

The scholars leave it up to the urf interpretation to see if it gives a bad image or not... If it gave a bad image in islamic countries, the scholars would have advised against not for it, as i've heard from my own ears or as you see from.Grand Ayatollah Shaikh Bashir Husayn al-Najafi -ha- in the video.

 

Trust me these scholars know very well what's going on in the world, and they are keeping in touch. They need it, to give answers to the modern questions مستحدثات. And for myself I trust our maraje to guide us to keep islam safe.

 

I'll repeat myself, if Islam's image is harmed, they would have already spoken against it.

 

In the end, you do as you want according to your taqlid, we do as we want according to ours. Don't attack us, and don't disrespect us, and don't disrespect our taqlid... Did i say otherwise?

 

Unless if you want to impose the taqlid you do upon the others...

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته - And upon you be peace as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

 

So you acknowledge it all but in order to keep your adherence to a 200 year old practice you would rather give Islam a bad name. I am sorry there iis no excuse in your case. 

 

Truly the era of jahaliyat is upon us again. Yours is what is called intellectual dishonesty. I will always ttack the intellectually dishonest because they lead astray thos that are less knowledgeable .

 

You are far more to blame because you knowingly besmirm Islam and the Ahlul bait and will try and use the Ayatullahs as a shield when you are questioned on the day of Judgement

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The scholars leave it up to the urf interpretation to see if it gives a bad image or not... If it gave a bad image in islamic countries, the scholars would have advised against not for it, as i've heard from my own ears or as you see from.Grand Ayatollah Shaikh Bashir Husayn al-Najafi -ha- in the video.

 

HAHAHA are you serious ???? Well newsflash buddy, most of the muslims are sunni's not shia's and as a result most of the muslim countries are sunni not shia, and sunni's see this practice as something which is wrong and illogical thus giving it a bad name to islam. So in actual fact this practice does give a bad image to islam in MOST ISLAMIC COUNTRIES so where's your beloved maraja's verdict on this ?

 

 

 

 

In the end, you do as you want according to your taqlid, we do as we want according to ours. Don't attack us, and don't disrespect us, and don't disrespect our taqlid... Did i say otherwise?

 

And this is why Islam has gone downhill and muslims have become so ignorant. This taqlid is what's leading all you blind followers astray, you people have become so dependent upon taqlid that you guy's need to refer to your marja's for every little problem. You people have just don'y think for yourselves and stay ignorant 

 

And just to let you know I am a shia btw who was also brought up to do 'taqleed' so please, I don't have any bias against taqleed

So you acknowledge it all but in order to keep your adherence to a 200 year old practice you would rather give Islam a bad name. I am sorry there iis no excuse in your case. 

 

Truly the era of jahaliyat is upon us again. Yours is what is called intellectual dishonesty. I will always ttack the intellectually dishonest because they lead astray thos that are less knowledgeable .

 

You are far more to blame because you knowingly besmirm Islam and the Ahlul bait and will try and use the Ayatullahs as a shield when you are questioned on the day of Judgement

Brother I am Shia and I am 100% with you in this, we have to fight against this, we need to reform.

Edited by Ali.k
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HAHAHA are you serious ???? Well newsflash buddy, most of the muslims are sunni's not shia's and as a result most of the muslim countries are sunni not shia, and sunni's see this practice as something which is wrong and illogical thus giving it a bad name to islam. So in actual fact this practice does give a bad image to islam in MOST ISLAMIC COUNTRIES so where's your beloved maraja's verdict on this ?

 

 

And this is why Islam has gone downhill and muslims have become so ignorant. This taqlid is what's leading all you blind followers astray, you people have become so dependent upon taqlid that you guy's need to refer to your marja's for every little problem. You people have just don'y think for yourselves and stay ignorant 

 

And just to let you know I am a shia btw who was also brought up to do 'taqleed' so please, I don't have any bias against taqleed

Brother I am Shia and I am 100% with you in this, we have to fight against this, we need to reform.

 

 

In fact Taqleed isnt to blame. Its not possible to put a water tight fatwa on every single thing, otherwise each fatwa would be volumes long.  As all true believers in Taqleed and i am including Sunni and Shia in this know, you have to understand the spirit of the fatwa, its essence.

 

Instead we have the intellectually dishonest or should i say degenerate who look for loop holes in the fatwa in order to carry on what they are doing.

 

They have no interest in Taqleed or Marjiyat this is but a method to lead people astray.

 

Only the Shirazi have an unconditional support for blood letting all others by and large either forbid it or attach heavy conditions 

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In fact Taqleed isnt to blame. Its not possible to put a water tight fatwa on every single thing, otherwise each fatwa would be volumes long.  As all true believers in Taqleed and i am including Sunni and Shia in this know, you have to understand the spirit of the fatwa, its essence.

 

Instead we have the intellectually dishonest or should i say degenerate who look for loop holes in the fatwa in order to carry on what they are doing.

 

They have no interest in Taqleed or Marjiyat this is but a method to lead people astray.

 

Only the Shirazi have an unconditional support for blood letting all others by and large either forbid it or attach heavy conditions 

Actually we're both right on this. It's a mixture of what I said and what you said. In terms of what I said about taqleed, I was responding to a comment in order to highlight the fact that there is a big problem that taqleed causes in being ignorant as well as blind following and not using one's intellect in matters (I am a Shia so i'm on the inside in terms of seeing the effects of this within the community lol). I wasn't necessarily referring to cutting with blades and such. In respect to this issue of cutting yourself then you are right in what you said, but it's also a mixture of people being brought up to believe it's ok and it's something special for Imam Hussein and despite what you say against it they will defend it to death even if you are right because it's what they brought up to believe and don't want accept it wrong

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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته - May peace be upon you as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

اللّهم صلّ على محمّد وآل محمّد - O Allah please pray upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad

بسم الله الرّحمن الرّحبم - Thanks to the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

أسعد الله أيامكم بذكرى مولد خير خلق الله محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم - May Allah grant you happy days for the souvenir of the birth of Best of Allah's Creations, Muhammad may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his family

 

Where I disaggree with you is you talk about globalisation of media... I aggree, but each place have it's own urf. And the urf of these places change...

 

The scholars leave it up to the urf interpretation to see if it gives a bad image or not... If it gave a bad image in islamic countries, the scholars would have advised against not for it, as i've heard from my own ears or as you see from.Grand Ayatollah Shaikh Bashir Husayn al-Najafi -ha- in the video.

 

Trust me these scholars know very well what's going on in the world, and they are keeping in touch. They need it, to give answers to the modern questions مستحدثات. And for myself I trust our maraje to guide us to keep islam safe.

 

I'll repeat myself, if Islam's image is harmed, they would have already spoken against it.

 

In the end, you do as you want according to your taqlid, we do as we want according to ours. Don't attack us, and don't disrespect us, and don't disrespect our taqlid... Did i say otherwise?

 

Unless if you want to impose the taqlid you do upon the others...

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته - And upon you be peace as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

Nobody wants to "impose" his taqleed on others brother.What we say is act according to the given fatawa.This is what is discussed here.

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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته - May peace be upon you as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings
اللّهم صلّ على محمّد وآل محمّد - O Allah please pray upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad
بسم الله الرّحمن الرّحبم - Thanks to the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

أسعد الله أيامكم بذكرى مولد خير خلق الله محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم - May Allah grant you happy days for the souvenir of the birth of Best of Allah's Creations, Muhammad may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his family

 

So you acknowledge it all but in order to keep your adherence to a 200 year old practice you would rather give Islam a bad name. I am sorry there iis no excuse in your case. 

 

Truly the era of jahaliyat is upon us again. Yours is what is called intellectual dishonesty. I will always ttack the intellectually dishonest because they lead astray thos that are less knowledgeable .

 

You are far more to blame because you knowingly besmirm Islam and the Ahlul bait and will try and use the Ayatullahs as a shield when you are questioned on the day of Judgement

 

It may be a 6 hours old practice, i don't care. The maraji never puts any limits to the mourning of Imam Husayn -pbuh- except if it gives islam a bad image. I don't recall the Imams -pbut- doing so! In the west it can even be a military salute like you see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21-gun_salute with flags at half mast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-mast

 

Now as i provided an example before, would you make having multiple wives haram because it may be ridiculed in the west?

 

I'm just wondering, will you come up to the Imam of our Time -pbuh-, may Allah hasten his appearance, and go up to him "O Master, you should mourn that much physically speaking... the blood coming from your eyes is scaring people away..."

 

HAHAHA are you serious ???? Well newsflash buddy, most of the muslims are sunni's not shia's and as a result most of the muslim countries are sunni not shia, and sunni's see this practice as something which is wrong and illogical thus giving it a bad name to islam. So in actual fact this practice does give a bad image to islam in MOST ISLAMIC COUNTRIES so where's your beloved maraja's verdict on this ?

 

Let sunnis see what they want. They see mutah as a legalization of prostitution, would you dare making it haram? Did you read Grand Ayatollah Bashir al-Najafi's fatwa that A true Sunni wrote?

 

The maraje would never fully render tatbir haram, neither whatever mourning for Imam Husayn -pbuh-, only if this "mourning" ridicules the religion, not if it doesn't suit the mentality of some people. We disaggree on the use of term "ridicule". Keep this in mind.

 

And this is why Islam has gone downhill and muslims have become so ignorant. This taqlid is what's leading all you blind followers astray, you people have become so dependent upon taqlid that you guy's need to refer to your marja's for every little problem. You people have just don'y think for yourselves and stay ignorant

 

I don't have any little trouble to what is bold and underlined. As we say in iraq: حطها براس عالم، واطلع منها سالم which literraly means "Put it in a scholars head, and get safe out of it" with the meaning that "Be safe from taking any responsability and let the scholar takes the responsability of this question". That is the whole point of taqlid.

 

We think for ourselves in matters of creed, beliefs, aqida... But we emulate the Maraje because they themselves emulate the 14 infallibles and brings us the 14 infallibles' knowledge .
 

I'm proud to say i try to be knowledgeable in jurisprudence, but i'm completely ignorant about how to extract the right jurisprudence from the quran and the sunna as brought by the Ahl-el-Bayt -pbut-, because i didn't complete my ijtehad, and i don't believe i will one day...

 

Brother I am Shia and I am 100% with you in this, we have to fight against this, we need to reform.

 

Faiir enough,  complete your ijtehad and prove that you're the most knowledgeable. Until then, just carry on reforming your own life.
 

In fact Taqleed isnt to blame. Its not possible to put a water tight fatwa on every single thing, otherwise each fatwa would be volumes long.  As all true believers in Taqleed and i am including Sunni and Shia in this know, you have to understand the spirit of the fatwa, its essence.

 

Instead we have the intellectually dishonest or should i say degenerate who look for loop holes in the fatwa in order to carry on what they are doing.

 

You want to defend your point of view and attack us, fair enough, i'll defend mine. You want to discourage people doing it, i want to discourage people forbidding it. But watch your language, it's a brotherly advice from me to you. Anyway, i forgive you.

 

And i don't think it's a loophole, but rather conditions to ALLOW the practice of tatbir. If the conditions are filled according to me, i have the right to practice it. If the conditions are not filled according to you, you don't have the right to practice it. It's up to the interpretations of every and each one of us.

 

The maraje could have well have said: if it is done in a private place, with no image outside of that public place, it is allowed... But they didn't, and it's a more general view.

 

They have no interest in Taqleed or Marjiyat this is but a method to lead people astray.

 

You have no idea of who i am... How do you authorize yourself of judging me or even other people? You have no idea about my view of Taqlid or Marjaiya.

 

Nobody wants to "impose" his taqleed on others brother.What we say is act according to the given fatawa.This is what is discussed here.

 

Should i remind you to the opening post of the topic?

 

How would a muqallid of Grand Ayatollahs Sayyid Ali al-Sistani, Shaikh Husayn Wahid al-Khorasani, Sayyid Muhammad Saeed al-Hakim, Shaikh Bashir Husayn al-Najafi, Shaikh Muhammad Ishaq al-Fayyadh, Sayyid Sadeq al-Shirazi, Sayyid Mohammad Sadeq al-Rohani, Sayyid Muhammad Taqi al-Modaressi, may Allah Almighty protect them all, react to that opening post except that it's an attack on the taqlid and an attack on the maraje that doesn't see it haram?

 

i tend to believe that all Husayni Symbols (including Tatbir) have worked to protect the Husayni Revolution, and forbidding one of them, is weakening them all...

 

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته - And upon you be peace as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

Edited by icewizard
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Our point of discussion here is that we say,the maraji u are mentioning don't allow cutting ur head.Therefore we don't attack u,We try to discuss why given fatawa are misinterpreted or stretched to "allow" tatbeer by the muqallidun.Why is this seen as an attack?

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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته - May peace be upon you as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings
اللّهم صلّ على محمّد وآل محمّد - O Allah please pray upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad
بسم الله الرّحمن الرّحبم - Thanks to the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

أسعد الله أيامكم بذكرى مولد خير خلق الله محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم - May Allah grant you happy days for the souvenir of the birth of Best of Allah's Creations, Muhammad may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his family

 

The maraji i'm mentioning don't have trouble with Tatbir... If they did, they would have considered it troublesome and/or haram by name, as the marjaa you're emulating...

 

There is nothing mentioning tatbir (or even considering tatbir as giving a bad image of islam), therefore it's up to the interpretation of every muqallid...

 

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته - And upon you be peace as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

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They surely do not allow to cut ur head urself..but ok the muqallidun interprete themselves.

As i mentioned before problem is not people cutting their heads but calling this act as a part of Islam,of religion.And all the maraji consider it as an innovation since it didn't exist at the time of Muhammad saas.So how come that people claim it to be part of the religion?

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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته - May peace be upon you as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings
اللّهم صلّ على محمّد وآل محمّد - O Allah please pray upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad
بسم الله الرّحمن الرّحبم - Thanks to the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

أسعد الله أيامكم بذكرى مولد خير خلق الله محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم - May Allah grant you happy days for the souvenir of the birth of Best of Allah's Creations, Muhammad may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his family

 

They surely do not allow to cut ur head urself..but ok the muqallidun interprete themselves.

 

How do you know about that? You're interpreting as well with your point of view... You have no proof of what you're advancing

 

As i mentioned before problem is not people cutting their heads but calling this act as a part of Islam,of religion.

 

What makes it part of the religion is the niyya...

If i just avoid eating and drinking, is this islam? No... If i make fast with the intention to get closer to Allah Almighty, is this islam? Yes...

 

And all the maraji consider it as an innovation since it didn't exist at the time of Muhammad saas.So how come that people claim it to be part of the religion?

 

Latmiyyas didn't exist at the time of Muhammad -pbuh&hf- and there is no problem with it... That's why it's the urf which works for these kind of things... Inshallah an extended answer will provided but i need to check out stuff

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته - And upon you be peace as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

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As which has been proven, there is no problem in making yourself bleed for al-Husayn عليه السلام provided you follow the rules which have been applied in the fatwaa` which I have shown in this thread, telling us that the muqalideen are not following the fatawaa` properly which means this act has to be condemned is a pointless arguement and it is a statement of intellectual dishonesty, no offense intended.

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Muslim cut open babies heads for religious ceremony

 

Views over 88,000

 

 

 

 

PLEASE read the comments on this youtube video if you have ANY doubt about blood rituals being against the Fitrah of the human , repulsive psychologically, unsanitary, inhumane, and barbaric.

 

Forgive us Allah swt, and forgive us Imam Hussain a.s, for utterly anihilating your message and instead hijacking it with jahiliyah.

 

That baby is so vurnerable, it could get SO many infections, and i won't touch on the health hazards. It's child abuse - which is now the face of Hussain a.s

Edited by hameedeh
Disturbing visual removed.
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You are more worried about the bad comments on the Video ? What about the bad comments that People make on those Videos where Animals are slaughtered in a Halal way.......being slit in the Throat while still alive instead of being struck first in order to make them uncuncious ? aren't all those halal butchering of ways also disturbing to the public to such an extent that we should rather start eating Haram meat ?

 

Why not consult your Big Marja about it who might just do that and we will all end up eating Haram Meat as all these Videos that are being spread on youtube showing our brothers cutting the throat of Animal whilist the Animal is still alive are giving us all Muslims a very very negative and bad and disturbing image. 

 

Due to these Videos is the Public considering us as Barbaric so should we rather STOP all the Halal ways and sacrifice a piece of Chicken Burger in order to save the image of Islam !

 

You FOOLS !

 

If I had a Son would I ensure that he Performs Tatbir every year from the day he is born in the name of "YA HUSSAIN" !

 

It is People like yourselves who has read a few Books and become so BIG headed that you have shaped the religion to please your own needs and turned Islam into a little Dress that makes you look so ultra Special.

 

You have all become Teachers and have left the Chair of Learning far behind !

 

Woe be unto those that stand against the act of Tatbir !

 

 

 

http://www.azadari4imam.org/

 

You are not even a true muslim in my eyes if you stand against Tatbir leave alone calling yourself a Shia.

 

It is better for you to stay silent than speak against something of which you have little to no knowledge of and STOP creating your own opinions about something which has been Declared Halal as Hellfire is also a place for those wo make that which is Halal Haram !

 

You are commitng a worse act than to say that Namaz, Hajj and Quran is Haram and must be forbidden !

 

WOE be unto those that dare speak against the holiest of acts and shame be upon your face that have darkened due to assuming such filthy things !

 

KEEP throwing your stones with your filthy mindset that you have gotten yourself into, beg your Lord for mercy and to guide you onto the right path and STOP worshiping your Marja's and Ayatollahs you mass maniacs !

 

You are all about talk talk talk and it is the true People of Hussaini Spirit that shed their Blood of "Ya Hussain" and the Yazeedi's are those who try to stop or even utter a single word against it !

 

Now fix up if there is any hope for yourselves !

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Thanks for your reply.But u didn't answer our questions.

What questions? All I see is emotional arguements rather than intellectual ones. You have yet to state one reason why tatbeer is haraam' other than your marja' calling it an innovation - and that's fine since you have the right to follow your marja, but I have shown how some great maraje` allowed blood letting (giants like al-Khu`i and Naa`eeni) - and yes they give restrictions, and yes people are misinterpreting what they've said but why then do people have the right to label all those that do tatbeer in a bad way?

I'm not sure I want to ruin Islaam's image, and as al-Khu`i gave restrictions for that. It can easily be done in a private place where confusion shall not occur to non-Shia and non-Muslims in general.

Edited by Revolving Ace
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It CAN be done that way but mostly is not and rises the negative effect on our religion and therefore is due to maraji which were mentioned here,not allowed.Question is why are some not behaving according to given fatawa and try to justify their own actions with misinterpretation of given fatawa and STILL claim it as being holy,islamic and so forth.

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Smart ! very smart and clever People that are on here and it is this cleverness which most of the time seperates a Human from its Humanity....what a shame !

 

How grave would it be to even change a single Ayat of the Holy Quran ?

 

Such a grave sin that whoever commits it intentionally to please its own desires would most likely end up in Hell fire.

 

What about someone who Burns the Quran and destroys it all together ?

 

If there would have been no "Imam Hussain (as)" then there would have been NO QURAN !!!

 

AS IF ALL THE QURANIC VERSES in the World would have been burned and vanished !

 

Butchered and slaughtered was Hussain (as) along with his entire Family which He sacrificed in order so that you and I may benefit from the true Islam.

 

And you are now trying to spread filthy teachings that wish for us to reduce our ways in expressing our love to our Master of Martyres !

 

God almighty tested Abraham to see just how much Abraham loves his Lord by requesting him to sacrifice his very own Son !

 

The same way did the almighty Lord of the Worlds along with Imam Hussain (as) know the outcome of the battle of Kerbala and Mola Hussain (as) wanted to give his entire Family for the love of God to save the true message of Islam.

 

We are not sacrificing or giving our sons away to a battle where we know that our sons will be butchered to express our very love to God almighty the same way our King of Martyrs did but all we do is get a small blade and cut our Head or back to shed little Blood in order to express the some of the same love which Abraham had when he was ready to sacrifice his Son for God almighty.

 

Mola Hussain (as) made the greatest of sacrifices not to only express his true love and devotion to his Lord but to also save the true form of Islam which is the Islam of "Ali un Wali Ullah". 

 

The opposing Army of our Master of Martyrs were all People who help onto the Book and and prayed their five compulsory prayers along with fasting and Hajj etc.

 

What they didn't have however was the Wilayat of Ameer ul Momineen and the importance of the Wilayat is such that is seperates a Hussaini from a Yazeedi and by God will not a single Muslim enter Jannat who does not testify the Wilayat of Amir ul Momineen !

 

And all those Mullahs that now stand against Tatbir/Zanjeer Zani which is the true backbone of Islam will be doomed as they have also opened the Door of a so called "Sunni Shia" unity which only causes damage to our faith as you should never mix water with Oil. Truth is truth and a lie is a lie so stop supporting the lies and befriending the enemies of Imam Ali (as).

 

It is also the Main cause of Islam having the name of Terroist Taliban Isisi Al Qaida (la) Religion of Allah !.

 

IT IS ALL DUE TO HIJACKING OUR ISLAM BY TRYING TO WIPE OUT WILAYAT OF AMIR UL MOMINEEN !

 

It is not the People of the West who we should eb concerned about to be our Prime enemies but rather those to try to take away the Haq of our 1st Imam !

 

In your little imaginary World do you see the day when all Humans turn to Islam....right ?

 

Which Islam however ?

 

Will you see them Western People grow long Beards and high trousers preaching against Shia ?

 

It will never happen the only way in order for the Truth to be bold and strong is for it to have overcome the false version of the claiming truth !

 

It is a shame to see so many of our Shia being sucked into this blindly following of Marjas and it will be the Imam of our time Inshallah who will be going over to Iran and cleaning those Mullah's out of their Holes !

 

LABAYK YA HUSSAIN (as) !

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And all those Mullahs that now stand against Tatbir/Zanjeer Zani which is the true backbone of Islam will be doomed as they have also opened the Door of a so called "Sunni Shia" unity which only causes damage to our faith as you should never mix water with Oil. Truth is truth and a lie is a lie so stop supporting the lies and befriending the enemies of Imam Ali 

MALANG ALERT !!!!!!!  "Tatbir/Zanjeer zani which is the true backbone of Islam" May you be forgiven for this statement. You are a liar, how can you even claim this ? your stupidity amazes me and it's also clear to see that if you truly believe in this statement then by Allah and the Ahlulbayt you have greatly misunderstood the entire meaning of islam, may you be guided to the truth. Something which is also shown about your comment on Sunni Shia unity, and as a fellow Shia, I am disgusted by that comment, you are not a true follower of Imam Hussein, even though you think you are, you are not. True followers of Imam Hussein don't beat their chests or cut themselves for him, rather they try to be like him, act like him and show peace and love. I apologise to any Sunni brothers on this forum on behalf of this misguided brother, don't ever take the malangs seriously they are for the most mart very illogical and intellectually incompetent.

 

 

It is a shame to see so many of our Shia being sucked into this blindly following of Marjas and it will be the Imam of our time Inshallah who will be going over to Iran and cleaning those Mullah's out of their Holes !

 

Despite your clear lack of intelligence and knowledge of Islam I actually agree with the words in bold but none the less laugh at irony of this statement coming from someone like you as you are nothing but a blind follower yourself of your fathers version of Islam. You are blind following this tatbir because you brought up to do it, you are a hypocrite.

Edited by Ali.k
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It CAN be done that way but mostly is not and rises the negative effect on our religion and therefore is due to maraji which were mentioned here,not allowed.Question is why are some not behaving according to given fatawa and try to justify their own actions with misinterpretation of given fatawa and STILL claim it as being holy,islamic and so forth.

These arguements are absolutely based on emotions. Please try to come up with and academic response - I don't care what people do, I follow my scholars and if they tell me to do something I do it as they say, I don't care if Tom, Richard and Harry does it in a wrong way. That has no weight upon me.

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These arguements are absolutely based on emotions. Please try to come up with and academic response - I don't care what people do, I follow my scholars and if they tell me to do something I do it as they say, I don't care if Tom, Richard and Harry does it in a wrong way. That has no weight upon me.

This type of attitude is wrong to have, you should always question and use your intellect and reason when you are told to do anything. Don't just follow what you are told to do, it's dangerous

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I understand, but my question is what you can't answer so you are trying to dismiss it. Like you said, you donated blood and it made a positive difference in this world, it helped saved someones life. But explain to me how you can use that to justify zanjeer ? I again ask you what is being acheived through bleeding from zanjeer ? who is being saved from that blood of your's that is being spilt on the floor where it's walked over ? what difference is that blood making in the world. Donating blood is a positive as it can save life but what does blood from zanjeer do ?

 

Now I might have misunderstood you if you mean that being under that tree and seeing people walk over your blood is what made you realise there is a way to give blood for imam hussein correctly and it's not zanjeer but blood donations. But then I think you don't mean that because you start of by saying "I do not know why people are so much against Tatbir (Zanjeerzani & qamazani)". This is said in present tense which makes it seem you still don't think there's anything wrong with zanjeer.

That story have two views from same man. A person who was doing Tatbir before, later he got another idea for same " Blood " and he changed his way to show eager of sacrifice. His later sacrifice made someone's life saved, while his previous makes him grief when nobody care for his blood spreaded on road. The story is conveying message without insulting guys who are doing Tatbir, they can move on and donate blood instead of cutting on road.

 

Every human is not equal , some take more time to understand concept then others. Tableegh is better solution with them instead of rejecting directly.

Edited by alirex
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MALANG ALERT !!!!!!!  "Tatbir/Zanjeer zani which is the true backbone of Islam" May you be forgiven for this statement. You are a liar, how can you even claim this ? your stupidity amazes me and it's also clear to see that if you truly believe in this statement then by Allah and the Ahlulbayt you have greatly misunderstood the entire meaning of islam, may you be guided to the truth. Something which is also shown about your comment on Sunni Shia unity, and as a fellow Shia, I am disgusted by that comment, you are not a true follower of Imam Hussein, even though you think you are, you are not. True followers of Imam Hussein don't beat their chests or cut themselves for him, rather they try to be like him, act like him and show peace and love. I apologise to any Sunni brothers on this forum on behalf of this misguided brother, don't ever take the malangs seriously they are for the most mart very illogical and intellectually incompetent.

 

Despite your clear lack of intelligence and knowledge of Islam I actually agree with the words in bold but none the less laugh at irony of this statement coming from someone like you as you are nothing but a blind follower yourself of your fathers version of Islam. You are blind following this tatbir because you brought up to do it, you are a hypocrite.

 

 

So you have a Special alert for any Malangs I see ?

 

Simply shows just how much you fear us !

 

On one hand do you pray for me and on the other are you throwing Stones and sticks at me with very little effort due to your weakness.

 

You might be a Shia but by far not a Shia of Ali !

 

Syed Sajjad (as) cried tears of Blood for years and you dare speak against the act of Azadari ?

 

I am in no status to be debating with a low life like yourselves as Imam Ali (as) clearly stated for me not to debate with a fool and I wouldn't even dare pray for you !

 

I am not someone who blindly follows the footsteps of my Father either !

 

I have been raised with respect, manners, and Truth !

 

You claim to be all knowing like some sort of Super Hero who goes onto shake hands with the Sunnis whom Imam Ali (as) curses left right and Centre in "Dua Sanam Quraish"........but hey it's something which doesn't exist in your little fairy tale Books of teachings !

 

Namak Haram is what you are !

 

You live off the Noor of Ali (as) but go and shake the hands of his enemies !

 

then you also....

 

Preach against the West but pleasantly enjoy all the benefits that they feed you and your family !

 

Go back to your Dessert where you belong !

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You claim to be all knowing like some sort of Super Hero who goes onto shake hands with the Sunnis whom Imam Ali (as) curses left right and Centre in "Dua Sanam Quraish"........but hey it's something which doesn't exist in your little fairy tale Books of teachings !

 

You believe in Nahjul Balagha ?

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That story have two views from same man. A person who was doing Tatbir before, later he got another idea for same " Blood " and he changed his way to show eager of sacrifice. His later sacrifice made someone's life saved, while his previous makes him grief when nobody care for his blood spreaded on road. The story is conveying message without insulting guys who are doing Tatbir, they can move on and donate blood instead of cutting on road.

 

Every human is not equal , some take more time to understand concept then others. Tableegh is better solution with them instead of rejecting directly.

Ah now I understand, it was just because of the fact you said in the beginning that you don't see what's wrong with tatbir that made me think you still support it 

So you have a Special alert for any Malangs I see ?

 

Simply shows just how much you fear us !

 

On one hand do you pray for me and on the other are you throwing Stones and sticks at me with very little effort due to your weakness.

 

You might be a Shia but by far not a Shia of Ali !

 

Syed Sajjad (as) cried tears of Blood for years and you dare speak against the act of Azadari ?

 

I am in no status to be debating with a low life like yourselves as Imam Ali (as) clearly stated for me not to debate with a fool and I wouldn't even dare pray for you !

 

I am not someone who blindly follows the footsteps of my Father either !

 

I have been raised with respect, manners, and Truth !

 

You claim to be all knowing like some sort of Super Hero who goes onto shake hands with the Sunnis whom Imam Ali (as) curses left right and Centre in "Dua Sanam Quraish"........but hey it's something which doesn't exist in your little fairy tale Books of teachings !

 

Namak Haram is what you are !

 

You live off the Noor of Ali (as) but go and shake the hands of his enemies !

 

then you also....

 

Preach against the West but pleasantly enjoy all the benefits that they feed you and your family !

 

Go back to your Dessert where you belong !

Haha i've heard in order to expose a fool you allow him to talk and talk. I won't bother responding to you as everyone reading your comments, SHIA and SUNNI can see how incredibly lost you are, so in reality everytime you open your mouth you just come out like the loser. and for the record I never claimed to be all knowing, so we can already see your lies and lack of rationale

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Please guys its a discussion , take it as discussion instead of insulting each other. Whether you are Malang , Akhbari, Usooli .. all belongs to Imam Ali (as) and Imam Ali (as) scold those of his army members, who abuse army members of Mauwiya ibne Abu Sufian in Jung e Siffin. So please stop insulting each other or you can go out from teaching of Imam Ali (as) then either you are Malang or Usooli .. Allah will punish both parties.

Edited by alirex
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Please guys its a discussion , take it as discussion instead of insulting each other. Whether you are Malang , Akhbari, Usooli .. all belongs to Imam Ali (as) and Imam Ali (as) scold those of his army members, who abuse army members of Mauwiya ibne Abu Sufian in Jung e Siffin. So please stop insulting each other or you can go out from teaching of Imam Ali (as) then either you are Malang or Usooli .. Allah will punish both parties.

Brother I am sorry but this guy is giving a bad name to muslims, Shia's and followers of Imam Ali. Look how filled with hate he is towards our brethren and all because we oppose a practice which isn't even a main principle of Islam ? let alone an actual part of Islam ? I'm sorry man but that sort of thing must be condemmed

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Brother I am sorry but this guy is giving a bad name to muslims, Shia's and followers of Imam Ali. Look how filled with hate he is towards our brethren and all because we oppose a practice which isn't even a main principle of Islam ? let alone an actual part of Islam ? I'm sorry man but that sort of thing must be condemmed

i can see , its a internet we can easily avoid. We don't know who is behind that nick he is really a Shia/Sunni/Wahabi/Christian/Jew .. god only knows. But when you will come into anger your actual will jump out. Your all old discussions will come into " ? " after that. If you remain positive you will get a confirmed reward, but by chance if you loose temper and become same like the attacker your all convincing dialogues will come into light of doubt.

 

Please read this paragraph which i copied from wikipedia.org

 

 

Converting to Islam

==============

Six months before the final expedition (under Muhammad), Muhammad told Khalid ibn al-Walid to go to the people of Yemen and deliver them the message of Allah. They are good people, they are honorable people, they are people of great value. Khalid go to them and speak to them in a way that will bring them to Islam. However, Khalid ibn al-Walid's approach made many of them upset, they were not familiar with his ways. They began to deny his message. When the news reached Muhammad, he turned to Ali and told him go to the people of Yemen and spread the message of Islam. Obeying the prophet's command, Ali went to the people of Yemen with a group of soldiers. As Ali mentioned the word Islam, the people of Yemen started to throw stones at him because they were still upset about the incident with Khalid ibn al-Walid. The soldier turned to Ali and asked him if they should retaliate. Despite being hit by stone, Ali told his soldiers to remain calm and patient because they had not heard about the true Islam. The choice to remain patient left a monumental effect in the minds of the Yemenis. After they finished pelting him with stones, Ali conveyed to them the religion of Islam. But they were more drawn to the fact that even though they abused and angered Ali, he maintained his neutral mannerism . As a result, many of the Yemeni tribes such as the Kinda, Banu Nakha, Hamadan, Thaftan tribe were inspired by Imam Ali and converted to Islam. In a similar way, Malik, Kumayl ibn Ziyad, Hujr ibn Adi, and Uwais al-Qarni was inspired by Ali's manners and teachings. Therefore, they all (including Malik) decided to convert to Islam.

Reference : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malik_al-Ashtar

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Taqlid literally means "to follow (someone)", "to imitate". In Islamic legal terminology it means to follow a mujtahid in religious laws and commandment as he has derived them.

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Usool -ad-Deen (Roots of Religion):      Taqleed not Required in Faith.

 

Furoo-ad-Deen[Prayer, Fasting, Hajj, Zakat, Khums  ….]: Taqleed Required.

 

We have three opinions regarding Bloodletting Mattam.

 

[1] Some Jurist/Mujtahid have no Opinion.

[2] Some Jurist/Mujtahid allow it.

[3] Some Jurist/Mujtahid do not allow it.

 

If this issue of Bloodletting Mattam during Azadari is a Fiqhi/Legal/Jurisprudence issue. Diversity of opinion would be understood ,as is in the opinion regarding some other Jurisprudence issue.

 

Here, we have “No Opinion” by some Jurists. Should one conclude, that some jurist do not consider it a matter under their jurisdiction.

 

As it is a matter of Faith/Love/Devotion and not of Islamic Law, that needs a Jurists Legal opinion?

 

If this was not the case, would it not be necessary for all Jurists/Mujtahid/ Marja Taqleed to offer their opinion, either permissible or not permissible?

 

[Abstaining from a religious legal ruling, will not be an option. ]

 

Any comments? [ I have no issue with constructive criticism], sweeping under the rug, will not going to solve the bigger issue.


Layman.

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