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In the Name of God بسم الله

To Shias Who Perform Or Support Tatbir/cutting

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Lol. Childish arguements - bring me proof from the Holy Qur`aan or Hadeeth that causing pain for yourself, or taking blood out from your body, is haraam itlaaqan. I don't want emotional arguements, so yeah.

No one will stop you, go ahead lol.

 

Not childish at all. You fail to understand .

 

you can cut yourself cause yourself pain and I wouldnt comment , I would think you mad or in need of help but whether it was haram would be debateable.

 

However the moment you bring these practices into Islam and try and legitimise them and implying they are endorsed by Islam, the Holy Prophet (pbuhahp) and the Holy Imams(as) that is the haram element.

 

You associate blood gore and violence to those holy personages. That is haram

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We have had enough of this topic. Thread Locked. 

What questions? All I see is emotional arguements rather than intellectual ones. You have yet to state one reason why tatbeer is haraam' other than your marja' calling it an innovation - and that's fi

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته - May peace be upon you as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings اللّهم صلّ على محمّد وآل محمّد - O Allah please pray upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad بسم

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In my opinion, Tatbir is the first line of defense of the Message of Imam Hussain -pbuh&hf-... If this goes down, the following lines of defense will be fragilized...

 

 

 

 

this sounds rediculous, 'first line of defence', what do you mean?? Since when was harming yourself defending anyone. I cant tell whether you're being literal or metaphorical. By either way, it doesnt make sense. Defence against what exactly? Please do explain what you mean.

 

I dont see the point in it to be honest. If you love someone, you're meant to impliment their ways and teachings, not recreate the sufferings they experienced. In what way are you purifying your souls?

 

Im a shia myself, and i find it so wrong that people do this. Dont mean to be offensive, but its quite disgusting actually.

Edited by safana
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Grand Ayatullah Muhsin Al-Amin Al-Amuli

al-amin.jpg

Ayatullah Muhsin Al-Amin (~1868-1952), was one of the greatest scholars of his time. He is known for his biographical encyclopaedia, Ayan Al-Shi’ah (62 volumes) and for his very strong opposition to blood shedding rituals. He is known to have boycotted meetings where they were performed.

He wrote the book “Al-Majalis Al-Saniya” (1928) in which he said: And what some people do injuring themselves with swords and hitting themselves in a way that harms them is from the encouragement of Shaytan”.

 

 

 

 

 

Ayatullah Mutahhari

mutahhari.jpg

“Blood matam in its present form does not have a rational or religious basis. It is a clear instance of deviation. At least, in the present day it causes Shi’ism to be questioned. Activities that do not have any relation to the goals of Imam Husayn Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã are razors, blades and locks. Striking the head with a blade is the same. This is a mistake. Some people take blades and strike their heads making blood flow – for what? This action is not mourning.”

Howzah va Ruhaniyat, v.3

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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته - May peace be upon you as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings
اللّهم صلّ على محمّد وآل محمّد - O Allah please pray upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad
بسم الله الرّحمن الرّحبم - Thanks to the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

أسعد الله أيامكم بذكرى مولد خير خلق الله محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم - May Allah grant you happy days for the souvenir of the birth of Best of Allah's Creations, Muhammad may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his family
 

this sounds rediculous, 'first line of defence', what do you mean?? Since when was harming yourself defending anyone. I cant tell whether you're being literal or metaphorical. By either way, it doesnt make sense. Defence against what exactly? Please do explain what you mean.

 

You say tatbir is extreme azadari... If you want to attack the commemoration of Ahl-el-Bayt -pbut-, you'll attract too much attention if you attack the majalis... But if you do it gradually, people will become complacent, till the day someone notices that there are no more majalis...

 

How do you think a party like the iraqi Baath party got the grip in the country? It became even forbidden to hold a majlis for Imam Husayn -pbuh-.

 

I'll give you another example. In a known western european country, it is forbidden to wear a hijab in public schools. Recently it became forbidden to wear a niqab in public or covering someone's face. It's forbidden to keep your hijab for official documents photos. What do you think the goal is? The goal is to remove all islamic teaching and this starts by forbidding the niqab or similar things, next step is to forbid hijab in public... Things are done gradually to make people complacent.

 

By keeping Tatbir, you know that there is a hidden agenda to forbid the commemoration of Ahl-el-Bayt -pbut-, if someone tries to forbid or disallow it.

 

I dont see the point in it to be honest. If you love someone, you're meant to impliment their ways and teachings, not recreate the sufferings they experienced. In what way are you purifying your souls?

 

It's not especially about recreating the sufferings they experienced. Personally, when i feel so sad for what happened to Ahl-el-Bayt -pbut-, i'd feel like my physical pain must reflect my mental one. I must let this sadness express itself...

 

Im a shia myself, and i find it so wrong that people do this. Dont mean to be offensive, but its quite disgusting actually.

 

That's you're opinion... I'm not making you're taqlid... Here are some opinions of a marja al-taqlid who is himself the head of Qum Islamic Seminary:

 

Persian subtitled in English:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gTTW1WNWfw

 

Persian subtitled in Arabic:

 

To all Anti-Tatbir people here: i challenge you to watch the videos of Grand Ayatollah Shaikh Husayn Wahid al-Khorasani -ha- i just posted above.

 

I'm curious to see your reactions about it, at least watch it and say you disaggree... But watch it!

 

I'm curious to see reactions of mina313, alirex, A true Sunni, safana, Tawheed313...

 

Yea true,but it is a bida then,like tatbeer.I seek refuge from innovation of the religion.

 

And if you're talking about innovation, you can also consider public peaceful marches all over the world. Please don't see yourself as smarter and especially more knowledgeable than the most knowledgeable scholars who are still alive or who left this world. Unless of course, you are publicly saying these scholars are sanctioning innovation... Is that what you meant mina313?

 

On our side we are not saying these are innovations, we are saying this is تعظيم شعائر الله or glorifying the signs of Allah...

 

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته - And upon you be peace as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

Edited by icewizard
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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته - May peace be upon you as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

اللّهم صلّ على محمّد وآل محمّد - O Allah please pray upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad

بسم الله الرّحمن الرّحبم - Thanks to the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

أسعد الله أيامكم بذكرى مولد خير خلق الله محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم - May Allah grant you happy days for the souvenir of the birth of Best of Allah's Creations, Muhammad may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his family

 

 

You say tatbir is extreme azadari... If you want to attack the commemoration of Ahl-el-Bayt -pbut-, you'll attract too much attention if you attack the majalis... But if you do it gradually, people will become complacent, till the day someone notices that there are no more majalis...

 

How do you think a party like the iraqi Baath party got the grip in the country? It became even forbidden to hold a majlis for Imam Husayn -pbuh-.

 

I'll give you another example. In a known western european country, it is forbidden to wear a hijab in public schools. Recently it became forbidden to wear a niqab in public or covering someone's face. It's forbidden to keep your hijab for official documents photos. What do you think the goal is? The goal is to remove all islamic teaching and this starts by forbidding the niqab or similar things, next step is to forbid hijab in public... Things are done gradually to make people complacent.

 

By keeping Tatbir, you know that there is a hidden agenda to forbid the commemoration of Ahl-el-Bayt -pbut-, if someone tries to forbid or disallow it.

 

 

It's not especially about recreating the sufferings they experienced. Personally, when i feel so sad for what happened to Ahl-el-Bayt -pbut-, i'd feel like my physical pain must reflect my mental one. I must let this sadness express itself...

 

 

That's you're opinion... I'm not making you're taqlid... Here are some opinions of a marja al-taqlid who is himself the head of Qum Islamic Seminary:

 

Persian subtitled in English:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gTTW1WNWfw

 

Persian subtitled in Arabic:

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته - And upon you be peace as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

 

 

OK lets analyse what he said rather then what it is claimed he said.

 

Firstly note blood shedding is not considered Azadari in Iran it is haram in Iran

So Ayatullah Khorasani according to bits I have watched advocates chest beating , chains and crying loudly.

He is also answering a question so it is wrong to put the answer and not the question on this clip

 

He said beat ur back with chains even if it entails that some blood is spilled.

This is in the context of severity of lashing and in no way advocates gashing and slashing urself

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Not childish at all. You fail to understand .

you can cut yourself cause yourself pain and I wouldnt comment , I would think you mad or in need of help but whether it was haram would be debateable.

However the moment you bring these practices into Islam and try and legitimise them and implying they are endorsed by Islam, the Holy Prophet (pbuhahp) and the Holy Imams(as) that is the haram element.

You associate blood gore and violence to those holy personages. That is haram

No one implies they are endoresed by Islaam nor done by the Holy Prophet, for all we know how do we know we're even practicing mourining for al-Husayn (a.s) the same way the Imaams did.

Do you have proof the Imaams did chest beating like how we do know (in a rhythm), and circle around eachother whilst chest beating?

It's a matter of haraam or not. Not did the Imaams do we it or not.

Edited by Revolving Ace
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" i'd feel like my physical pain must reflect my mental one. I must let this sadness express itself..."

This is called autoaggression.U can cry and beat ur chest to deal with ur sadness brother.

Im not smarter than anyone,never claimed that.

In my opinion tatbeer is bida.My problem is not that someone sits at home and slits of his head.The problem is to connect it to Islam in general,in public without a proof.

 

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No one implies they are endoresed by Islaam nor done by the Holy Prophet, for all we know how do we know we're even practicing mourining for al-Husayn (a.s) the same way the Imaams did.

Do you have proof the Imaams did chest beating like how we do know (in a rhythm), and circle around eachother whilst chest beating?

It's a matter of haraam or not. Not did the Imaams do we it or not. It's not even haraam to make up your own Du'aa.

 

So you agree its not endorsed by Islam

You agree that the Holy Prophet didnt do it

You agree that the Holy Imams didnt do it

 

However you persist in this act and by implication associate it with all of the above bringing Islam into disrepute.

 

Well at least you honest that you are willing to damage Islam for the sake of self motivated act rather then an act which is Islamic.

 

BTW every blood letter i have met has said it is a holy act and provide dodgy hadith to try and back it up

Edited by A true Sunni
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So you agree its not endorsed by Islam

You agree that the Holy Prophet didnt do it

You agree that the Holy Imams didnt do it

However you persist in this act and by implication associate it with all of the above bringing Islam into disrepute.

Well at least you honest that you are willing to damage Islam for the sake of self motivated act rather then an act which is Islamic.

BTW every blood letter i have met has said it is a holy act and provide dodgy hadith to try and back it up

Most acts that we do are looked down upon anyway, you would know that latm` is also something that Sunnis mock us on. Mourning for Husayn (a.s) is Islamic, the way you do it shouldn't be a problem if it doesn't have hurma` (prohibition) on it.

Like I said, hurting yourself physically has no prohibition from what I've seen. Therefore, if that's the way you want to mourn for al-Husayn (a.s) or anyone for that matter, I don't see a problem.

The act of mourning for Husayn (a.s) is mustahab, the way it's done - I don't see a problem if the action has no prohibition.

p.s I want to see proof that Imaams did chest beating.

Edited by Revolving Ace
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" i'd feel like my physical pain must reflect my mental one. I must let this sadness express itself..."

This is called autoaggression.U can cry and beat ur chest to deal with ur sadness brother.

 

No this is called expression of grief... Will you call crying so strongly that blood gushes out your eyes as auto-aggression? Will you call crying so much you turn blind as auto-aggression? I dare you to...

 

Im not smarter than anyone,never claimed that.

In my opinion tatbeer is bida.My problem is not that someone sits at home and slits of his head.The problem is to connect it to Islam in general,in public without a proof.

So you are stating some Maraje al-Taqlid -ha- are promoting innovation in your opinion. Who say there is no proof? Why don't you ask the scholars? Why don't you mail to Grand Ayatollah Shaikh al-Khorasani -ha- to tell you what is his proof?

فَاسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ‌ إِن كُنتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ

Ask the followers of the Reminder if you do not know.

 

I believe the question of mourning is an open question, and that nothing itself is considered innovation, and that the urf عرف [general consensus] determines what is humiliating to the image of islam of what is not. In your opinion it is humiliating, in mine it is not. You stick to your mindset and i stick to mine. And many Maraje al-Taqlid -ha- believe it is not.

 

Don't be offended, but i trust the Maraje al-Taqlid -ha- to be better protectors of the image of islam than you do.

 

End word: this is a fiqhi (jurisprudential) issue, not a belief issue. It's up to emulating the Marjaa al-Taqlid (source of emulation) and not giving out fatwas from our own pockets. Thus everybody deals with his own taqlid.

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Culture (chest beating) may have a place in Islam, because it does not violate religious doctrine. Tatbir on the other hand, does.

 

 

"Become an ornament for us, do not be a disgrace for us."

 

~ Imam al-Sadiq (a) ~

 

 

 

 

 

      Humans are Naturally Repulsed by Self Harm and Blood

Most human beings are naturally averse to acts of bodily harm and to the shedding of blood. It is not surprising that the human mind and body are usually repulsed by the thought of cutting the skin, since they have been designed to ensure self-preservation. Most human beings are also repulsed by the blood of others since it is unhygienic and entails a health hazard. They very thought of bodily mutilation or blood can repulse people, let alone having to witness these things. There are many people who also suffer from blood phobia and the sight of blood can cause them to feel extremely uncomfortable.

Unfortunately many of the proponents of blood shedding do not seem to take into consideration this natural repulsion and unease felt by the majority of humanity. Even Shias who have been brought up in communities where blood rituals are prevalent, are repulsed by these activities.

It is about time that blood flagellators put themselves into the shoes of those who find these rituals abhorrent and tried to understand why so many people are against these activities. It is an act of recklessness to innovate and openly practice a ritual in the name of Islam that is unhygienic and repulses so many people.8

Blood Rituals are a Health Hazard

The mourning ceremonies which involve the congregational spilling of human blood via methods such as Tatbir and Zanjeer, are very unhygienic and are a health hazard. The ceremonies involve men striking themselves with blades, causing blood to spill all over the surrounding environment and often onto other mourners who have open wounds.

Blood can carry some very dangerous pathogens including the following:

  • Hepatitis B (HBV).
  • Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV).
  • Hepatitis C (HCV).
  • Syphilis.
  • Malaria.
  • Brucellosis.
  • Babeosis.
  • Leptospirosis.
  • Arborviral Infections.
  • Relapsing Fever.
  • Creutzfeld-Jacobs Disease (Mad Cow disease).
  • Viral Hemorrahgic Fever (Ebola virus).

Some of the above are deadly and have no known cure. Hepatitis B can survive on surfaces for up to several days, and in dried blood for up to a week. Blood mourning gatherings put people at risk to these and other dangerous diseases. It is almost impossible to impose good hygiene in these environments and individual blood mourners generally do not implement the any hygiene procedures. Blood is splattered around the environment, and the blades and other surfaces are not decontaminated. Some mourners also share blades.

Some of these acts also carry the possibility of incurring other forms of harm, such as: infections to wounds, skeletal damage, damage to nerves & veins. There have also been a few reports of deaths due to these acts.

 

 

 

Blood is Najis

One of the most unfortunate consequences of the blood rituals is the fact that it leaves the mourners and the surrounding environment Najis (ritually impure). Often these rituals are performed in the vicinity of mosques and the blood flagellators are then unable to pray because they are left in a state of impurity and the surrounding environment is also rendered ritually impure.

 

Don’t Other Acts of Worship Also Give Islam a Bad Image?

Another argument that is often used by promoters of blood flagellation is the contention that other established acts of worship also give Islam a bad image, therefore there is no need to refrain from publicly performing acts such as Tatbir (which also portray a negative image). Established Islamic actions such as Salaat, Tawaf, and the various forms of Hudood (e.g. flogging the fornicator) are often given as examples of actions that are the disliked by non-Muslims.

 

This argument is flawed and is considered a false analogy for the following reasons:

1, The established Islamic acts that have been mentioned are all from the Qur’an and the Sunnah. If it is indeed true that they give Islam a bad image, then it does not fully justify their non-performance because they are actual religious obligations that cannot be neglected. On the contrary, blood rituals are not from the Quran or the Sunnah.

2, The argument ignores all the ahadith which tell us to give the religion and ourselves a good image.

3, Blood flagellation cannot be compared to these other actions in terms of how much it disturbs people; it is a lot more disturbing.

4, Islam is the religion of the Fitra (innate human nature) therefore the human heart is inclined towards the Islamic practices. So for example the human heart finds peace in the performance of prayers and tawaf. If there are Islamic actions that are disliked by some people then it is normally due to a lack of proper understanding of what they entail and what their benefits are. If people saw these Islamic actions with the correct perspective then they would understand that the laws are actually very good and they are not detrimental. For example if a sincere person were to know the reasons for the hudood laws then they would come to accept their benefits and would no longer oppose them.

5, When Islam was revealed to the Arabs, it was revealed in stages. Certain things were not revealed initially (for example the prohibition of alcohol) thus showing that Islam does take into consideration the fact that a wise and pragmatic approach is needed when introducing a religion to a people. Therefore we must also deal with others in a wise manner and not disturb them with public displays of blood shedding.

6, The argument is a bit dishonest because many of these Islamic actions are actually not disliked by the many good people. There is nothing unattractive with acts such as salaat, tawaf and the recitation of the Qur’an.

 

 

 

 

Ayatullah Salehi Mazandarani

mazandarani.jpg

“There are no rational or lexical proofs, nor are there any principles, that can support blood matam in the mourning sessions of the leader of the martyrs, Imam Husayn Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, being permissible, let alone recommended. Furthermore, the principles and secondary rulings testify to its forbiddance. Therefore it is necessary to refrain from it.”

Edited by Tawheed313
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On his authorized chain of transmission, Kulayni relates that Jabir asked Imam al-Baqir (as) to explain what grief [jaza‘] meant. He (as) said,

«أشدُّ الجزعِ الصراخُ بالويلِ والعويلِ، ولطمُ الوجهِ والصدرِ...»

“The most intense grief is yelling, crying, shouting and hitting the face and chest…”

Sayyid ibn Tawus narrates, “When the captives reached Karbala on their return from Sham to Medina, they saw that Jabir ibn ‘Abd Allah Ansari along with a number of people of Bani Hashim had come for pilgrimage to the grave of Imam al-Husayn (as). All of them reached the place at the same time and started crying. They were grieving and hitting themselves. They mourned bitterly. The women of that land joined them and copied their mode and they mourned for Imam al-Husayn (as) for three days.

Source:http://www.al-islam.org/uprising-ashura-and-responses-doubts-ali-asghar-ridwani/psychology-mourning

scroll down to

"Beating the chest to mourn Imam al-Hussayn as"

"No this is called expression of grief... Will you call crying so strongly that blood gushes out your eyes as auto-aggression? Will you call crying so much you turn blind as auto-aggression? I dare you to..."

Edited by mina313
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On his authorized chain of transmission, Kulayni relates that Jabir asked Imam al-Baqir (as) to explain what grief [jaza‘] meant. He (as) said,

«أشدُّ الجزعِ الصراخُ بالويلِ والعويلِ، ولطمُ الوجهِ والصدرِ...»

“The most intense grief is yelling, crying, shouting and hitting the face and chest…”

Sayyid ibn Tawus narrates, “When the captives reached Karbala on their return from Sham to Medina, they saw that Jabir ibn ‘Abd Allah Ansari along with a number of people of Bani Hashim had come for pilgrimage to the grave of Imam al-Husayn (as). All of them reached the place at the same time and started crying. They were grieving and hitting themselves. They mourned bitterly. The women of that land joined them and copied their mode and they mourned for Imam al-Husayn (as) for three days.

Source:http://www.al-islam.org/uprising-ashura-and-responses-doubts-ali-asghar-ridwani/psychology-mourning

scroll down to

"Beating the chest to mourn Imam al-Hussayn as"

Nope, not what I wanted. I wanted proof that we do our chest beating exactly like how our A`immah (a.s) did. I already know of these aHaadeeth.

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No this is called expression of grief... Will you call crying so strongly that blood gushes out your eyes as auto-aggression? Will you call crying so much you turn blind as auto-aggression? I dare you to...

So you are stating some Maraje al-Taqlid -ha- are promoting innovation in your opinion. Who say there is no proof? Why don't you ask the scholars? Why don't you mail to Grand Ayatollah Shaikh al-Khorasani -ha- to tell you what is his proof?فَاسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ‌ إِن كُنتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ

Ask the followers of the Reminder if you do not know.

I believe the question of mourning is an open question, and that nothing itself is considered innovation, and that the urf عرف [general consensus] determines what is humiliating to the image of islam of what is not. In your opinion it is humiliating, in mine it is not. You stick to your mindset and i stick to mine. And many Maraje al-Taqlid -ha- believe it is not.

Don't be offended, but i trust the Maraje al-Taqlid -ha- to be better protectors of the image of islam than you do.

End word: this is a fiqhi (jurisprudential) issue, not a belief issue. It's up to emulating the Marjaa al-Taqlid (source of emulation) and not giving out fatwas from our own pockets. Thus everybody deals with his own taqlid.

yes everybody follows his marja.mine says haram,cuz it is in innovation in religion.What's the problem?Br.true Sunni explained to what Ayat.Khorassani is referring to.

Cutting and causing physical pain remains cutting and causing physical pain - and as far as I know there's no prohibition.

Was it part of mourning?According to ahadith it wasn't. Edited by mina313
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^^^ That doesn't matter, as I said. Nothing is haraam unless there is a prohibition on it, if such as an action causes you do remember Imaam al-Husayn (a.s) (mourning for al-Husayn is mustaHab) then it becomes an action of good rather than bad.

btw, Shaykh Waheed (h.a) is of the view that it is mustaHab, he follows al-Na`eeni (r.h) in that view.

Edited by Revolving Ace
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Yea but in what way remembering Imam Hussayn as...and this does matter a lot.Cuz we will be asked how we represented the message of Imam Hussayn as.

Rememberred and mourned him in a way that isn't prohbited by Sharia. If you feel that the image of Islaam is at stake then why not do it privately? Al-Khu`i (r.a), our greatest scholar o the 20th Century, also said Tatbeer is permissible provided it does not ruin Islam's image.

Edited by Revolving Ace
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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته - May peace be upon you as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings
اللّهم صلّ على محمّد وآل محمّد - O Allah please pray upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad
بسم الله الرّحمن الرّحبم - Thanks to the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

أسعد الله أيامكم بذكرى مولد خير خلق الله محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم - May Allah grant you happy days for the souvenir of the birth of Best of Allah's Creations, Muhammad may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his family

 

yes everybody follows his marja.mine says haram,cuz it is in innovation in religion.What's the problem?

 

There problem is where you IMPOSE your taqlid rules upon others. You don't want to do it because your taqlid says so, that's awesome. I congratulate you for following your taqlid. But don't try to impose your taqlid on mine because my taqlid says to follow the most knowledgeable, and among the urf, the most knowledgeable scholars don't have any trouble with this, some may even say it is mustahab...

 

Br.true Sunni explained to what Ayat.Khorassani is referring to.

Was it part of mourning?According to ahadith it wasn't.

 

Who said it wasn't? I'll put these texts in arabic (which i copied from alkafeel forums), but if you want translation in english, give me some time...

 

 

عن معاوية بن وهب، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال: كلّ الجزع والبكاء مكروه، سوى الجزع والبكاء على الحسين (عليه السلام)ـ

 

المصدر | الأمالي الشيخ الطوسي المجلس السادس ص 161 ح 20.و البحار الشيخ المجلسي ج 44 ب 34 ص 280 ح 9 وكذلك أيضاً في ج 45 ب 46 ص 313 ح 14

 

 

عن الحسن بن علي بن أبي حمزة، عن أبيه، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال: سمعته يقول: إنّ البكاء والجزع مكروه للعبد في كلّ ما جزع ما خلا البكاء والجزع على الحسين بن علي (عليهما السلام) فإنّه فيه مأجور

المصدر | في بحار الأنوار ج 44 ب 34 ص 291 ح 32.و كامل الزيارات ب 32 ص 107 ح 2

 

 

عن مسمع بن عبد الملك البصري قال: (قال لي أبو عبد الله (عليه السلام): يا مسمع أنت من أهل العراق؛ أما تأتي قبر الحسين (عليه السلام)؟.. .. قال لي أفما تذكر ما صنع به؟ قلت: نعم، قال: فتجزع؟ قلت: إي والله واستعبر لذلك حتى يرى أهلي أثر ذلك عليّ فأمتنع من الطعام حتى يستبين ذلك في وجهي. قال: رحم الله دمعتك أما إنّك من الذين يعدّون من أهل الجزع لنا

المصدر | بحار الأنوار ج 44 ب 34 ص 289 ح 31.و كامل الزيارات ب 32 ص 108 ح 6

 

عن مالك الجهني، عن أبي جعفر الباقر (عليه السلام) في مراسم يوم عاشوراء: (.. .. ثم ليندب الحسين عليه السلام ويبكيه ويأمر من في داره بالبكاء عليه، ويقيم في داره مصيبته بإظهار الجزع عليه

المصدر | بحار الأنوار ج 101 ب 24 ص 290 ح 1.و كامل الزيارات ب 71 ص 193 ح 7

 

 

ما رواه قدامة بن زائدة، عن أبيه، عن إمامنا السجاد (عليه السلام) حيث قال: (فإنه لمّا أصابنا بالطفّ ما أصابنا.. .. فكادت نفسي تخرج وتبيّنت ذلك مني عمتي زينب الكبرى بنت علي (عليهما السلام) فقالت: مالي أراك تجود بنفسك يابقية جدي وأبي واخوتي؟!! فقلت: وكيف لا أجزع وأهلع وقد أرى سيدي واخوتي وعمومتي وولد عمي وأهلي مصرعين بدمائهم، مرملين بالعرى

المصدر | كامل الزيارات ب 88 ص 274

 

And the meaning of word جزع which can be translated to craze...

 

 

الجزع في لغة العرب :ـ هو نقيض الصبر وهذا ما عليه كلّ المعاجم اللغوية. لذا فإنّ كلّ فعلٍ يفعله صاحب المصيبة يعبّر به عن عدم تحمّله وعن تأثّره الشديد فهو مصداق من مصاديق الجزع

والحديث عن الامام السجاد اعلاه ناخذ مقتطفات منه حيث قال (ع ): (وكيف لا أجزع وأهلع) فهو صريح في استحباب الجزع وأفضليته بل الهلع الذي هو أفحش الجزع في لغة العرب

المصدر |مجمع البحرين ج4 ص 411مادة هلع

والجزع على مراتب كثيرة أوّلها الصراخ والعويل والنحيب والبكاء المتواصل مع لطم الصدر ولطم الوجه وضرب الرأس باليد أو غيرها، وما التطبير الحسيني إلاّ مرتبة من هذه المراتب التي تقع في الحد الوسط من حيث الشدّة . جزع إمامنا السجّاد (عليه السلام) حين يقول: (فكادت نفسي تخرج). إذ هو قول المعصوم (عليه السلام) وليس قول العوام

 

source: http://www.alkafeel.net/forums/showthread.php?t=34723

 

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته - And upon you be peace as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

Edited by icewizard
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Rememberred and mourned him in a way that isn't prohbited by Sharia. If you feel that the image of Islaam is at stake then why not do it privately? Al-Khu`i (r.a), our greatest scholar o the 20th Century, also said Tatbeer is permissible provided it does not ruin Islam's image.

 

You said it all are you blind . There is no privacy anymore its called Pandoras box. You cannot put the knowledge of this vile act back in the box by doing it in private

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You said it all are you blind . There is no privacy anymore its called Pandoras box. You cannot put the knowledge of this vile act back in the box by doing it in private

Lol, what? So what if I do it at home? What is the point of him saying it is permissible then, adding a few words? He could've easily said no, because it ruins the image of Islam.

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I'm sorry but whipping yourself and hitting yourself and cutting yourself is completely illogical. It shocks me that people think Imam Hussein went through such atrocities. Even to the extent that his 6 month old child got killed in his arms or the fact that after his death he knew the daughters of none other than the prophet, were going to be completely humiliated. And for what ?? For 1400 years later for their to be a group of people cutting themselves or hitting themselves ??? Disgusting !!!!! 

 

And im a Shia btw

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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته -

 

I'm curious to see your reactions about it, at least watch it and say you disaggree... But watch it!

 

I'm curious to see reactions of mina313, alirex, A true Sunni, safana, Tawheed313...

 

 

 

Walekum Assalam Warhamatullah e Wabarakato

 

Don't want to say lie i really not watch the provided video, I am actually in favor of following Marja. If your Marja allowed it and made it compulsary then go ahead but dont promote it for other Marja followers.  Our Marja is not allowing it so we are not in favor of it. And if i am not wrong Majority at present either following .. Ayatullah Sistani, Ayatullah Khamnei, Ayatullah Makaram Shirazi .. bcoz of other Marja who are in favor of it. They are getting confused and not following there own Marja.

 

That is why i said .. They will left Tatbir when proper Tableegh will get done.

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Walekum Assalam Warhamatullah e Wabarakato

Don't want to say lie i really not watch the provided video, I am actually in favor of following Marja. If your Marja allowed it and made it compulsary then go ahead but dont promote it for other Marja followers. Our Marja is not allowing it so we are not in favor of it. And if i am not wrong Majority at present either following .. Ayatullah Sistani, Ayatullah Khamnei, Ayatullah Makaram Shirazi .. bcoz of other Marja who are in favor of it. They are getting confused and not following there own Marja.

That is why i said .. They will left Tatbir when proper Tableegh will get done.

Actually, Sistani has no official ruling regarding tatbeer, which has been proven.

BTW, Khorasani is also followed by alot of people, as is Sadiq Shirazi.

Edited by Revolving Ace
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Lol, what? So what if I do it at home? What is the point of him saying it is permissible then, adding a few words? He could've easily said no, because it ruins the image of Islam.

 

He never said do it home. No Marje has said do it at home. This is the blood letters interpretation of the fatwa.

Actually, Sistani has no official ruling regarding tatbeer, which has been proven.

BTW, Khorasani is also followed by alot of people, as is Sadiq Shirazi.

 

About your so called proof about Ayatullah Seestani its not proved. and i dispute your conclusions until u provide a full English translation.

As to Ayatullah Khorasani apart from the vid clip you havent provided any proof. The vid clip does not show him endorsing blood letting as has been claimed.

 

Sadiq Shirazi yes I agree he supports it

Edited by A true Sunni
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Since a sunni, a waqifi, wanabe 313s and the bulk of the Reviving-the-abu-huraira team, allies of KFC are all jointly against the practice of tutbir, I can't help but try to contemplate all the hidden goods in it even though my own current limit is matam. There must be something really good in it since all these people seem to be hell bent against it. Hmmm.. ^^^

Edited by Darth Vader
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Since a sunni, a waqifi, wanabe 313s and the bulk of the Reviving-the-abu-huraira team, allies of KFC are all jointly against the practice of tutbir, I can't help but try to contemplate all the hidden goods in it even though my own current limit is matam. There must be something really good in it since all these people seem to be hell bent against it. Hmmm.. ^^^

Sorry but that is a silly way of thinking, I am shia btw so I don't have any reason to be bias. Matam/Tatbir is illogical. It's unnatrual and tbh I dont blame sunni's for being against it because the shias misrepresent matam/tatbir. Shias make it seem as it is a part of islam, as it's religious but no !!!! It doesn't have any islamic or religious bearing, it is just cultural and thats all. CULTURE.

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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته - May peace be upon you as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings
اللّهم صلّ على محمّد وآل محمّد - O Allah please pray upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad
بسم الله الرّحمن الرّحبم - Thanks to the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

أسعد الله أيامكم بذكرى مولد خير خلق الله محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم - May Allah grant you happy days for the souvenir of the birth of Best of Allah's Creations, Muhammad may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his family

 

Now this is blind stubbornness brother A true Sunni... At least recognize something when you see it in front of you...

 

Saying Grand Ayatollah Shaikh Hussain Wahid al-Khorasani -ha- does not endorse tatbir is not being intellectually honest. Let me type down the translated text from the video (with extreme slight changes):

 

 

Woe be unto those who wish to rule out these mourning rituals in the slightest!
People of Iran, wake up (be aware), know that the smallest word said to oppose these rituals for mourning for Imam Husein (as), breaks the back of our last Prophet (saaws) (i.e. disappoints him).
These (azadari) mourning practices, these chest beating rituals, these chain beating rituals, must be protected with the greatest strength.
This issue is not a matter to be played around with. Whose words are these?
Hadith: "Mercy of Allah be on those (sarkhat) loud cries made for our sake".
Some ignorant people out there, speak indecently, and tell us to cry quietly... because it is our 6th Imam (as), the Head of our school of thought, who stated this hadith (to cry loud). So who is this Faqih/Jurist (who disregarded this statement)? The Fuqaha' today have fallen out of line!
The (true) Faqih is Na'eni. The (true) Faqih is Boroujerdi. The (true) Faqih is Ha'eri. these are the true Fuqaha', who say to beat the chest, use chains, and there is no problem even if blood was to emerge. This is what you call a Faqih. This is what you call Jurisprudence.
"Cry softly??" What are these nonesense comments?
"Sayha!" What does Sayha mean? Sayha means a type of howling/wailing. What does sarkha mean? Wailing depply (deep sayha) is sarkha.
The 6th Imam says "Oh Allah, bless that person who wails deeply for the sake of our tragedies". Hadith from 6th Imam (as) "Oh Allah, bless that person who wails deeply for us..." Continuation of hadith "Oh Allah, I entrust you with this matter".
So why all this nonsense over something so obvious?
Muhaqiq (learned) Na'eni, he is the same person who all the great learned scholars take pride in and could not find the smallest fault in him. Such a person says that beating the chest, beating the chains, if performed for the sake of the Master of Martyrs, even if blood was to emerge is permissible. The "permissibility" in this instance is not with the meaning that this action is "Mubah" i.e. it is not the case that it makes no difference whether you perform it or not. You (audience) are all learned people in fiqh. This fatwa is a fatwa from the greatest of scholars.
After he (Na'eni) issued the fatwa, the greatest people of our religion, and the scholars of our religion, such as Sayyid Mohsin al-Hakim, the writer of (the well-known book) "Mostamsak", when he was asked to endorse the fatwa of Ayatollah Na'eni, he wrote that the fatwa of our Shaikh (Na'eni) is far greater than that to require my approval.
Scholars like Faqih Shahroodi, who said "the truth is with what he (Na'eni) said". The same is for all the great scholars, those who rest in other places to those now resting here (in Qum), they are our experts, the pillars in Fiqh. This is Ha'eri (the founder of the Hawza in Qum) and this is his fatwa. This is Boroujerdi, who the people questionned him (if their actions were permissible) and said that in their towns they make "shabeehs" (replicas of the shrines) and after the day of Ashura, a black covering is placed on it and it's taken out onto the streets like an alam (banner). This faqih (jurist) says that any ritual that is known to be a type of azadari in the city people must emulate them.
And he (Boroujerdi) is someone who has studied in much details all the issues which harm the body. He has studied all the ahadith with their proof and sources. He has examined all the modifiable and unmodifiable aspects of Islamic Law. He has fully examined the issue of damage to oneself, in much details all the issues which harm the body. After completing these investigations he has said that these actions have no problem (jurisprudentially).
On the day of Ashura, people should only look towards Karbala. To where? To that place where the expert of all experts, I mean Mirza Shirazi, the second Mirza, the same person who hundreds of scholars like Balaghi have taken pride in being the humble and small student of Mirza. Such a person (Mirza) would, on the day of Ashura, go out bare-headed and bare-footed and would beat his chest with the crowds on the day of Ashura. This is what you call a Faqih (learned scholar). His actions were an evidence/proof for the Ummah.
On the day of Ashura keep your eyes on his example. And throughout the year in other seasons (like Fatimiyya days) who should we listen to? Listen and follow the example of such a person like hazrat Ayatollah Milani, Ayatollah Khoei. These two great scholars took pride that they were mere students of the students (of Mirza). Turn your ears towareds him (i.e. listen to him).
What does he (Mirza Shirazi) say? He said: "Has the news of my nail (the nail which stabbed Fatima Zahra (as) chest) reached you?" Go and ask that chest which was pierced by the nail, the same chest which held the secrets of the Prophet (saaws). The whole country should on the day of Ashura and the 3rd Jamadi al-Thani (martyrdom of Hazrat Fatima Zahra as), come out in groups and beat their chest and beat themselves with chains, and beat themselves with chains for the sake of that person (Hazrat Fatima Zahra (as)), who Ali ibn Abi Talib (as), the great man of mankind, and when the moonlight made it possible to find her hidden grave, he went there and said "my sould is trapped in grief and I wish it would release itselve with this sigh"

 

You also claim that Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Ali al-Sistani -ha- forbids tatbir, it's up to prove it that he say it's haram.

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته - And upon you be peace as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته - May peace be upon you as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

اللّهم صلّ على محمّد وآل محمّد - O Allah please pray upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad

بسم الله الرّحمن الرّحبم - Thanks to the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

أسعد الله أيامكم بذكرى مولد خير خلق الله محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم - May Allah grant you happy days for the souvenir of the birth of Best of Allah's Creations, Muhammad may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his family

 

Now this is blind stubbornness brother A true Sunni... At least recognize something when you see it in front of you...

 

Saying Grand Ayatollah Shaikh Hussain Wahid al-Khorasani -ha- does not endorse tatbir is not being intellectually honest. Let me type down the translated text from the video (with extreme slight changes):

 

 

You also claim that Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Ali al-Sistani -ha- forbids tatbir, it's up to prove it that he say it's haram.

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته - And upon you be peace as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

 

We have had Ayatullah Sistanis fatwa for many years now and not one of you blood letters has ever refuted it. However in 2014 you now come up with this statement by one of his students and you claim this statement takes precedence over his fatwa.

 

Well let me tell you primary sources always supersede secondary sources. No evidence is required by anyone. It is up to you to provide a primary source fatwa

 

As to Khorasanis talk just point me to the exact minute he makes the claim I will judge it myself. 

Since a sunni, a waqifi, wanabe 313s and the bulk of the Reviving-the-abu-huraira team, allies of KFC are all jointly against the practice of tutbir, I can't help but try to contemplate all the hidden goods in it even though my own current limit is matam. There must be something really good in it since all these people seem to be hell bent against it. Hmmm.. ^^^

 

LOL oldest trick by blood letters .'look those bad people want to stop us there fore we must be right' you really are s[Edited Out]ing the bucket now to justify your vile practice

Edited by A true Sunni
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Since a sunni, a waqifi, wanabe 313s and the bulk of the Reviving-the-abu-huraira team, allies of KFC are all jointly against the practice of tutbir, I can't help but try to contemplate all the hidden goods in it even though my own current limit is matam. There must be something really good in it since all these people seem to be hell bent against it. Hmmm.. ^^^

Wow,exact analysis.

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You say tatbir is extreme azadari... If you want to attack the commemoration of Ahl-el-Bayt -pbut-, you'll attract too much attention if you attack the majalis... But if you do it gradually, people will become complacent, till the day someone notices that there are no more majalis...

 

How do you think a party like the iraqi Baath party got the grip in the country? It became even forbidden to hold a majlis for Imam Husayn -pbuh-.

 

I'll give you another example. In a known western european country, it is forbidden to wear a hijab in public schools. Recently it became forbidden to wear a niqab in public or covering someone's face. It's forbidden to keep your hijab for official documents photos. What do you think the goal is? The goal is to remove all islamic teaching and this starts by forbidding the niqab or similar things, next step is to forbid hijab in public... Things are done gradually to make people complacent.

 

By keeping Tatbir, you know that there is a hidden agenda to forbid the commemoration of Ahl-el-Bayt -pbut-, if someone tries to forbid or disallow it.

 

 

It's not especially about recreating the sufferings they experienced. Personally, when i feel so sad for what happened to Ahl-el-Bayt -pbut-, i'd feel like my physical pain must reflect my mental one. I must let this sadness express itself...

 

 

 

1. what's 'azadari' -

2. Still your argument doesn't make sense and is a little unrealistic. Come on- we're very conscious of what's going on around us, i'm sure that by not practicing tatbir, somthing as extreme as majalis not being held wont happen.

3.

You said: "By keeping Tatbir, you know that there is a hidden agenda to forbid the commemoration of Ahl-el-Bayt -pbut-, if someone tries to forbid or disallow it."

Lets be real man- this is so far fetched. By banning tatbir, no ones eliminating the commemoration of Ahl-el-Bayt (PBUT), there are other ways of commemorating and those ways are about rousing our emotions and not inflicting harm on yourself.

4. "...Personally, when i feel so sad for what happened to Ahl-el-Bayt -pbut-, i'd feel like my physical pain must reflect my mental one. ..."

Then whats the difference between you and those who self-harm ???

If you feel so sad then why not just commemorate through words, stories, etc. Its about what u feel inside-not out.

You remember by following their teachings and their moral ideas- THAT is a reflection of who they were and the message of islam, and it is those teachings that they died for.

People who do Tatbir bring a  bad reputation to Muslims (notice i said 'muslims' and not 'shia muslims', it just is not fair). You could potentially defer someone from Islam, and then it'll be YOUR fault. This is very risky because you may b questioned on it on judgement day- just saying.

 

Salams

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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

The (true) Faqih is Na'eni. The (true) Faqih is Boroujerdi. The (true) Faqih is Ha'eri. these are the true Fuqaha', who say to beat the chest, use chains, and there is no problem even if blood was to emerge. This is what you call a Faqih. This is what you call Jurisprudence.

 

 

So please tell me that if one were to use blades why would there be a need to say that even if blood was to emerge. This is clearly meaning using chains only in a manner not causing excess harm and let us say if one person got carried away by the moment and used the chains harder and then if blood flowed without the intention then there is no harm in it. Going out with the intention of blood letting is problematic. Please understand my dearest brothers.

 

(wasalam) 

Edited by haideriam
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Matam/Tatbir is illogical.

 

:D Coming to the point eh. You all hate Azadari. Next proof:

 

LOL oldest trick by blood letters .'look those bad people want to stop us there fore we must be right' you really are s[Edited Out]ing the bucket now to justify your vile practice

 

^ For the umpteenth time you imbecile, I'm not a "blood letter". Stop being a fool. How is it my practice? :P You can't prove it. Your anger and paranoia has made you lose your balance, turned your posts into pointless ramblings and your credibility.

 

Who would like to follow in the footsteps of these extremists? Not the normal people.

 

 

 

Wow,exact analysis.

 

Yup. ^_^

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He never said do it home. No Marje has said do it at home. This is the blood letters interpretation of the fatwa.

 

About your so called proof about Ayatullah Seestani its not proved. and i dispute your conclusions until u provide a full English translation.

As to Ayatullah Khorasani apart from the vid clip you havent provided any proof. The vid clip does not show him endorsing blood letting as has been claimed.

 

Sadiq Shirazi yes I agree he supports it

I have already refuted you regarding Sistani, and I took my information from Nader Zaveri and Ibn al-Ja'abi, two of the most learned people on this forum, and gave you the info in English. As for Khorasani, he is a follower of Ayotallaah Na'eeni in this regard.

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