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In the Name of God بسم الله

To Shias Who Perform Or Support Tatbir/cutting

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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته - May peace be upon you as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings
اللّهم صلّ على محمّد وآل محمّد - O Allah please pray upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad
بسم الله الرّحمن الرّحبم - Thanks to the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

 

So what, people who perform or support Tatbir do not defend the Message of Imam Hussain -pbuh&hf-???

 

that's utter nonesense and extremely arrogant to say... Go on, attack Sayyid Ali al-Sistani (i'm including him because he didn't disallow it, thus considers it allowed), Sayyid Muhammad Saeed al-Tabatabaei al-Hakeem, Shaikh Bashir al-Najafi, Shaikh Ishaq al-Fayyadh, Shaikh Husayn Wahid al-Khorasani, Sayyid Sadiq al-Shirazi, Sayyid Sadiq al-Rohani, ... (and i'm talking just about the alive Sources of Emulation Marja al-Taqlid who perform, support tatbir, or don't disallow or even deem it makruh), may Allah protect them and grant them long lives...

 

In my opinion, Tatbir is the first line of defense of the Message of Imam Hussain -pbuh&hf-... If this goes down, the following lines of defense will be fragilized...

 

 

 

On 12/29/2014 at 11:20 AM, Tawheed313 said:

 

Comprehensive but not exhaustive refutation of tatbir, including fatwa's past and present, history, and video audio of ayatullahs to scholars to members of the shia community.

 

Defend the message of Imam Hussain a.s. Standagainsttatbir#

 


 

 

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته - And upon you be peace as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

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Quoting scholars who disallow the Holy practice doesn't prove anything as there are many who also endorse it, such as those brother icewizard mentioned

 

So tell me the names of those that allow it with no precondition. and as proof of your statement i expect fatwas from those individuals specifically endorsing blood letting.

 

Once you eliminate those that have the precondition of not harming the image of Islam you really have to scrabble around to find more than a hand full of names

Moharrams over so please... give it a rest.. we can start all over again in 10 months.

 

What are you a part time Shia

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If you can read Arabic refer to this site

http://iraq.iraq.ir/vb/showthread.php?t=23721

since this is an English website submitting evidence in another language is a rather fruitless exercise.

 

I have on 2 occasions had 'evidence' translated only to find that the 'evidence' was not what it was purported to be..

 

So as i said names of those that allow it unequivocally without any stipulations with supporting proof of their fatwas.

 

I am not interested in anybody else telling me what they think that persons position is

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Ayatullah Sistani does not permit tatbir. This is false and a lie. The truth is no direct opinion so far has been given, however, Ayatullah Sistani has preconditions - one is it must not defame the school of thought , or distract or detract from the true meaning. There is absolutely no doubt tatbir causes widespread hate for shias.

 

May Allah swt rid the school of ahlulbayt a.s of the minority who practice this utterly harram act.

Edited by Tawheed313
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Quoting scholars who disallow the Holy practice doesn't prove anything as there are many who also endorse it, such as those brother icewizard mentioned

 

 

 

Regardless the Fatwas,

I do not think that it is too hard to judge about that whether Imam Husain is happy with Tatbir or not !

what was the noble purpose of Imam Husain?

was not it to guide people toward the right path of Islam?

how many times have we heard that even in the last moments of his life he intended to help Omar Saad with his bad destiny to change his mind as Hor ib Ziad did?

so, I want you honestly to pretend to be a non-Muslim, Sunni etc who is visiting such actions as a slogan of Shia school of thought. Now, what is your  feeling about Shia, do not you disgust them?

so, this is the exact feeling that all Christians, Sunnis , etc have about Shia. now how do you expect them to embrace Shia Islam, the true path of life that Imam Husain sacrifice their family for it??

please, answer this question: is Imam happy with this fact?

Edited by mahdi servant.01
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Seems to me you are more interested in shias then ur own kind (sunnis that is). Inferiority complex? Why don't you revert?

 

 

so why don't you answer the question I posed. It seems that you are running away. So much for  blood letters who cannot answer a question outside a defined time period lol

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May Allah swt rid the school of ahlulbayt a.s of the minority who practice this utterly harram act.

You wish death upon other Shias because they differ from you on a jurisprudential issue? May Allah (swt) remove this disease from your heart. Why havent the admins done anything about this?

As for the others, if I feel like answering you, I will later inshallah.

Edited by _twelver
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السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته - May peace be upon you as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings
اللّهم صلّ على محمّد وآل محمّد - O Allah please pray upon Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad
بسم الله الرّحمن الرّحبم - Thanks to the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

 

Regarding your first sentence, i say publicly that you are lying... You confirm you are lying with your second sentence. I really advise you to avoid lying on scholars.

 

Regarding the jurisprudence, we consider everything Mubah [allowed] unless it is made Haram [forbidden] by the Marja al-Taqlid [source of emulation]. That is not the case, as Tatbir has not been made forbidden by Sayyid Ali al-Sistani -ha-. He comes from a school (Sayyid AbulQasim al-Khoei's -ra-) where the big majority of his students consider it Mubah [allowed] or even Mustahab [recommended].

 

Do people may mock Tatbir? I don't consider so. Do you consider so? It's then haram for you, not for me. I consider it as a good opportunity to show how big is this tragedy...

 

People may mock Mutaa [temporary marriage], should we stop doing it? No on the opposite, we should practice it as much as we can whenever possible to fight the Bidaa [innovation] that it is haram.

 

The day of Ashura is not any single day. We must show the people that a HUGE tragedy happened. Even the sky and the earth spilled their own blood on this day. There is no limit on the mourning of Imam Husayn -pbuh-...

 

Ayatullah Sistani does not permit tatbir. This is false and a lie. The truth is no direct opinion so far has been given, however, Ayatullah Sistani has preconditions - one is it must not defame the school of thought , or distract or detract from the true meaning. There is absolutely no doubt tatbir causes widespread hate for shias.

 

May Allah swt rid the school of ahlulbayt a.s of the minority who practice this utterly harram act.

 

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته - And upon you be peace as well as Allah's mercy and his blessings

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Until we will not give proper stress and concentration on all Maraaje fatwas related to " Azadaari Shohda-e-Karbala " we are not able to understand where we are standing actually ..

 

Every Marja included " If your act is making confusion, and creating hate towards azadaari and not spreading proper message it is forbidden or not permissible. "

 

Present Big Ayatullahs , Ayatullah Khamnei who is also Rahbar e Moa'azzam and Ayatullah Sistani clear indicate this act is not good, and spread hate towards shia'ism.

 

The problem with today's Ahle tashio is many are against " Irani Revolution " and hate towards it. There hate is eating there brain capability, and slowly they are moving towards arrogant nature. They will become Anti-Shias in future but they will not accept it.

 

Blood donation is related to same " BLOOD " and left a Angelic message towards all community, not just muslims but non muslims too.

 

Many youth already moved on, hope rest will too. Every human is not equal. Some are taking more time to understand then others.

 

We have to be polite with them instead of just attack on them.

Edited by alirex
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this is the lecture of Ayatollah Khamenei that i think it is very good  about topic and shows why some scholars say it is Haram

Tatbir is one of the wrong doings. I know some will say: “It would have been proper if he had not talked about Tatbir.” They will say: “What do you have to do with Tatbir? Some people practice it, let them do so!” No! One cannot remain silent towards such a wrong action.
It is wrong that some people hold daggers and hit themselves on the head to bleed. What are they seeking?! How can this be an act of mourning?! Of course hitting on the head with one’s hands is a sign of mourning. You have seen it several times that when people face suffering, they hit on their chests and heads. This is a typical symbol of mourning. But where have you ever seen a person who is suffering from the loss of a dear one, hit on their head with a dagger and make it bleed?! How can this be a form of mourning?
Tatbir [Qame Zani] is a fabricated tradition. It is among the issues that does not belong to the religion and undoubtedly God is not also pleased with such a practice.
The more I thought about it, the more truly I realized I cannot overlook informing our dear people about Tatbir- which is certainly an act of wrongdoing and a heresy. Do not practice it! I do not approve of it. If someone does something to pretend that they want to practice Tatbir, I will be truly dissatisfied with them. I am declaring this solemnly.

َAlso the below link is very good that gathered the Fatwas of many scholars related to this issue:

http://tatbir.org/?page_id=98

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The argument is weak and can’t stand on its own. Whenever imagery , political correctness, and political card is been utilized.

 

Azadari is alive, it will discard an act if it harms Islam, if it doesn't it will continue.

 

There are other “controllable” things that need our attention. If people are very passionate about their position, be part of the solution.

Mockery only works with the feeble and weak minded, and ones involved in this act are neither.

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True Sunni, you already got embarassed regarding this topic by Ibn al-Ja'abi, so don't try :-)

 

more unsubstantiated comments. seems like your protestations of support for blood letting by all these imaginary Marje. Posting comments about a 3rd party saying Ayatullah Sistani hasnt professed an opinion about something when the fatwa is self evident is like spitting on the wind . You and your ilk just get covered by your own sputum

 

Azadari is alive, it will discard an act if it harms Islam, if it doesn't it will continue.

 

 

have to say this is the most short sighted post i have sen for a long time. History proves that unless you actively tend to the wounds and distortions it becomes permanent.

 

The longer the time period the greater the confusion

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The argument is weak and can’t stand on its own. Whenever imagery , political correctness, and political card is been utilized.

 

Azadari is alive, it will discard an act if it harms Islam, if it doesn't it will continue.

 

There are other “controllable” things that need our attention. If people are very passionate about their position, be part of the solution.

Mockery only works with the feeble and weak minded, and ones involved in this act are neither.

 

 

Humans are Naturally Repulsed by Self Harm and Blood

 

Most human beings are naturally averse to acts of bodily harm and to the shedding of blood. It is not surprising that the human mind and body are usually repulsed by the thought of cutting the skin, since they have been designed to ensure self-preservation. Most human beings are also repulsed by the blood of others since it is unhygienic and entails a health hazard. They very thought of bodily mutilation or blood can repulse people, let alone having to witness these things. There are many people who also suffer from blood phobia and the sight of blood can cause them to feel extremely uncomfortable.

Unfortunately many of the proponents of blood shedding do not seem to take into consideration this natural repulsion and unease felt by the majority of humanity. Even Shias who have been brought up in communities where blood rituals are prevalent, are repulsed by these activities.

It is about time that blood flagellators put themselves into the shoes of those who find these rituals abhorrent and tried to understand why so many people are against these activities. It is an act of recklessness to innovate and openly practice a ritual in the name of Islam that is unhygienic and repulses so many people.

 

Blood Rituals are a Health Hazard

The mourning ceremonies which involve the congregational spilling of human blood via methods such as Tatbir and Zanjeer, are very unhygienic and are a health hazard. The ceremonies involve men striking themselves with blades, causing blood to spill all over the surrounding environment and often onto other mourners who have open wounds.

Blood can carry some very dangerous pathogens including the following:

  • Hepatitis B (HBV).
  • Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV).
  • Hepatitis C (HCV).
  • Syphilis.
  • Malaria.
  • Brucellosis.
  • Babeosis.
  • Leptospirosis.
  • Arborviral Infections.
  • Relapsing Fever.
  • Creutzfeld-Jacobs Disease (Mad Cow disease).
  • Viral Hemorrahgic Fever (Ebola virus).

Some of the above are deadly and have no known cure. Hepatitis B can survive on surfaces for up to several days, and in dried blood for up to a week. Blood mourning gatherings put people at risk to these and other dangerous diseases. It is almost impossible to impose good hygiene in these environments and individual blood mourners generally do not implement the any hygiene procedures. Blood is splattered around the environment, and the blades and other surfaces are not decontaminated. Some mourners also share blades.

Some of these acts also carry the possibility of incurring other forms of harm, such as: infections to wounds, skeletal damage, damage to nerves & veins. There have also been a few reports of deaths due to these acts.

 
Blood is Najis

One of the most unfortunate consequences of the blood rituals is the fact that it leaves the mourners and the surrounding environment Najis (ritually impure). Often these rituals are performed in the vicinity of mosques and the blood flagellators are then unable to pray because they are left in a state of impurity and the surrounding environment is also rendered ritually impure.

 

 

http://tatbir.org/

No, what I mean is I dont like speaking with people who are blinded by their emotions

 

Don’t Other Acts of Worship Also Give Islam a Bad Image?

 

Another argument that is often used by promoters of blood flagellation is the contention that other established acts of worship also give Islam a bad image, therefore there is no need to refrain from publicly performing acts such as Tatbir (which also portray a negative image). Established Islamic actions such as Salaat, Tawaf, and the various forms of Hudood (e.g. flogging the fornicator) are often given as examples of actions that are the disliked by non-Muslims.

 

This argument is flawed and is considered a false analogy for the following reasons:

 

1, The established Islamic acts that have been mentioned are all from the Qur’an and the Sunnah. If it is indeed true that they give Islam a bad image, then it does not fully justify their non-performance because they are actual religious obligations that cannot be neglected. On the contrary, blood rituals are not from the Quran or the Sunnah.

 

2, The argument ignores all the ahadith which tell us to give the religion and ourselves a good image.

 

3, Blood flagellation cannot be compared to these other actions in terms of how much it disturbs people; it is a lot more disturbing.

 

4, Islam is the religion of the Fitra (innate human nature) therefore the human heart is inclined towards the Islamic practices. So for example the human heart finds peace in the performance of prayers and tawaf. If there are Islamic actions that are disliked by some people then it is normally due to a lack of proper understanding of what they entail and what their benefits are. If people saw these Islamic actions with the correct perspective then they would understand that the laws are actually very good and they are not detrimental. For example if a sincere person were to know the reasons for the hudood laws then they would come to accept their benefits and would no longer oppose them.

 

5, When Islam was revealed to the Arabs, it was revealed in stages. Certain things were not revealed initially (for example the prohibition of alcohol) thus showing that Islam does take into consideration the fact that a wise and pragmatic approach is needed when introducing a religion to a people. Therefore we must also deal with others in a wise manner and not disturb them with public displays of blood shedding.

Edited by Tawheed313
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A recent question to al-Sistani about his position on Tatbir and the response was that anyone claiming that he believes it is haram or halal has not expressed his opinion.

أنا من مقلدي سماحة السيد علي السيستاني حفظه الله وفي الآونه الأخيره سمعنا أن سماحة السيد أصدر حكما بتحريم التطبير ، فهل هذا صحيح ؟

بسمه تعالى

لقد أكد سماحة السيد دام ظله مراراً وتكراراً وأمام مجاميع مختلفة من الزوار أنه ـ رعاية لبعض المصالح ـ لا يبدي رأياً حول التطبير لا تحليلاً و لا تحريماً ، فما ينسب إليه دام ظله أحياناً من التحليل أو التحريم لا يعبّر عن موقفه.

مكتب السيد السيستاني في النجف الأشرف - أجوبة المسائل الشرعية

1 / ذي الحجة / 1434هـ

Question: I am a Muqallid of al-Sayyid `Ali al-Sistani, may Allah protect him and in his later time, We have heard that his eminence al-Sayyid has issued a ruling for the prohibition of Tatbir, is this correct (sahih)?

Answer:

In His, Most High, Name,

His Eminence al-Sayyid has time and time again emphasized in front of different gatherings of the Zuwaars (visitors), he does not express his opinion about Tatbir, not for its permissibility, nor for its prohibition, so whoever attributes to him ( دام ظله) at times from its permissibility or its prohibition, do not express his viewpoint

Office of al-Sayyid al-Sistani in Najaf al-Ashraf - Answer to Shari'ah Questions

1st of Dhu'l Hijjah, 1434

Source: http://www.alalbayt....ar&id=1&letter=

Haashim al-Haashimi, one of the most prominent students of al-Sistani, who has written a book called Ikhtilaaf al-Hadeeth which is notes from the dars al-Khaarij lectures of al-Sistani. He was asked the view of al-Sistani, he says the lack of fatwa from him regarding tatbir, is not proof on his view of it being impermissible(1). He also says that since there is lack of fatwa from him, then it is necessary for the muqallid to take it as Ihtiyaat al-Waajib (2) which means to see other scholars viewpoints such as al-Wahid al-Khurasani who says that it ismustahabb to do it(3). Hashim al-Haashimi answer has confirmed the above answer that there is no viewpoint from al-Sistani regarding Tatbir.

(1) أما عدم إصدار الفتوى بالجواز فلا يكون دليلا على التحريم لأن التحريم عبارة عن فتوى بعدم الجواز، ولا يمكن أن يكون عدم الإفتاء دليلا على الفتوى بعدم الجواز

(2) ومع عدم صدور تلك الفتوى فاللازم على مقلده الاحتياط بالاجتناب

(3) ومن الواضح أن كبار الفقهاء الأحياء كالشيخ الوحيد الخراساني يقولون باستحباب التطبير أو جوازه

Source: http://webcache.goog...n&ct=clnk&gl=us

Credits to Nader Zaveri.

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(bismillah)

 

Because this is an act of Love for the Son of Sayeda Fatima Zahra[sa] and can not be decided by Law.

 

Love of Hussain a.s means upholding the true sunnah of his grand father Muhammed PBUH, and showing Islam in the best of lights! Not obliterating the Sunnah and destroying the image of the only pure source to him.

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A 19th century infiltration Bidah telling them there was.

Be careful of what you say, because calling tatbeer a bid`ah is very dangerous, you're pretty much saying that all the scholars who allow it are advocates of innovations, which is a very dangerous approach.

You can disagree with it and show you reasons as to why, but don't call it an innovation because it is an insult to the scholars that allow it.

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My interest here was /is not to defend anything related to Azadari, as it does not need a worthless layman defender like me.

 

We did not carry the Alam of Abbas[as] nor did not carry the Azadari till this point.[ It carried us , Azadari was/is/will be responsible for our survival ].

 

Azadari, or acts are not mandatory, no one gives out an invitation, or markets, it, or convinces people to attend the Majalis, Take out procession, or do Matam[any form]. People do out of their Love and reverence.

 

Point is, lets not use a political card, extreme imagery, insults and mockery to make your point. Because it was done is the past and discussion will become contentious and nothing positive will be accomplished.

 

Take heed from the diversity of opinion from our learned scholars and do not create division, by lobbying the opinion of one over the other. They are all learned and like other matters where they have diverse opinions  they have their own reasonings and their followers should follow their Marja Taqleed.

 

People are under Taqleed of different learned scholars, we need to follow our Maraja, and can discuss why we feel the opinion we adopted is intelligently sound to us, but we do not put down the opinion of the other scholar. As we layment  do not have the capability to argue/lobby for one over the other. I would suggest we all circle back to the concept of Taqleed[no compulsion/lobbying is required].

 

Bigger picture is that the way these discussion are conducted, where they are morphed into something other than the topic at hand are causing more damage, division, if you understand what I mean in the holistic sense.

Ayatollah Sistani is from the Islamic center in Najaf,Iraq Ayatollah Wahid Khurasani is from the Islamic center in Qom, Iran, and we have our esteemed and wise Leader of a brave Islamic republic, who has been instrumental in steering the ship through tumultuous sea of world politics, they may have opinions about a certain act, if they found out that their layman follower are engaged in lobbying and negative-divisional activities that these humble servants may not be very pleased. They all respect each other and their diversity of opinion.

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A recent question to al-Sistani about his position on Tatbir and the response was that anyone claiming that he believes it is haram or halal has not expressed his opinion.

أنا من مقلدي سماحة السيد علي السيستاني حفظه الله وفي الآونه الأخيره سمعنا أن سماحة السيد أصدر حكما بتحريم التطبير ، فهل هذا صحيح ؟

بسمه تعالى

لقد أكد سماحة السيد دام ظله مراراً وتكراراً وأمام مجاميع مختلفة من الزوار أنه ـ رعاية لبعض المصالح ـ لا يبدي رأياً حول التطبير لا تحليلاً و لا تحريماً ، فما ينسب إليه دام ظله أحياناً من التحليل أو التحريم لا يعبّر عن موقفه.

مكتب السيد السيستاني في النجف الأشرف - أجوبة المسائل الشرعية

1 / ذي الحجة / 1434هـ

Question: I am a Muqallid of al-Sayyid `Ali al-Sistani, may Allah protect him and in his later time, We have heard that his eminence al-Sayyid has issued a ruling for the prohibition of Tatbir, is this correct (sahih)?

Answer:

In His, Most High, Name,

His Eminence al-Sayyid has time and time again emphasized in front of different gatherings of the Zuwaars (visitors), he does not express his opinion about Tatbir, not for its permissibility, nor for its prohibition, so whoever attributes to him ( دام ظله) at times from its permissibility or its prohibition, do not express his viewpoint

Office of al-Sayyid al-Sistani in Najaf al-Ashraf - Answer to Shari'ah Questions

1st of Dhu'l Hijjah, 1434

Source: http://www.alalbayt....ar&id=1&letter=

Haashim al-Haashimi, one of the most prominent students of al-Sistani, who has written a book called Ikhtilaaf al-Hadeeth which is notes from the dars al-Khaarij lectures of al-Sistani. He was asked the view of al-Sistani, he says the lack of fatwa from him regarding tatbir, is not proof on his view of it being impermissible(1). He also says that since there is lack of fatwa from him, then it is necessary for the muqallid to take it as Ihtiyaat al-Waajib (2) which means to see other scholars viewpoints such as al-Wahid al-Khurasani who says that it ismustahabb to do it(3). Hashim al-Haashimi answer has confirmed the above answer that there is no viewpoint from al-Sistani regarding Tatbir.

(1) أما عدم إصدار الفتوى بالجواز فلا يكون دليلا على التحريم لأن التحريم عبارة عن فتوى بعدم الجواز، ولا يمكن أن يكون عدم الإفتاء دليلا على الفتوى بعدم الجواز

(2) ومع عدم صدور تلك الفتوى فاللازم على مقلده الاحتياط بالاجتناب

(3) ومن الواضح أن كبار الفقهاء الأحياء كالشيخ الوحيد الخراساني يقولون باستحباب التطبير أو جوازه

Source: http://webcache.goog...n&ct=clnk&gl=us

Credits to Nader Zaveri.

 

 

Few points that need to be raised and corrected on this post.

 

Firstly we have a fatwa from Ayatullah Sistani regarding cutting /blood letting this has never been contested by anyone. All blood letters have agreed this is a genuine fatwa. Many have come on this thread saying they have heard it from his own lips.

 

So in order to verify this new statement we need to verify it by looking for the stamped approval.

 

next this thread is about tatbir and cutting . If indeed this 'new statement' is correct it does not give you permission  carte blanche to perform cutting since the first fatwa is till in play

 

Finally the commentary by his student is misleading and highly directed.

 

Ihtayat Wajib does not mean you go consult other Marje. It means it is Wajib upon you to exercise precaution in this matter including asking other Mrjae. Not one Marje but look to all the opinions and try and understand the issue . That is Wajib upon you.

 

He then directs you to Ayatullah Khorasni. This is directing the reader to a predetermined position. If he was being fair and honest he should have directed the listeners to other Marje as well.

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