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Miss Wonderful

Do They Sell Zamzam Water Online?

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website plz?


I just found this statement: Zam Zam water is sacred to Muslims and comes from a specific source in Saudi Arabia. Under Saudi law, Zam Zam water cannot be exported from Saudi Arabia for sale. Any water on sale in the UK that is labelled as Zam Zam is therefore of uncertain origin.  :(

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Water doesnt come from a "specific source". Zam Zam isnt being pumped from an ancient aquifer or anything like that.  Water is highly mobile, and circulates throughout the atmosphere and is continuously recycled.  Zamzam im sure is found throughout all of saudi arabia and beyond, and water recharging its aquifer probably comes from all over the middle east.  Some of the Zamzam water is certainly from other countries.

 

Ill also note that, over years ive been waiting for them to release some kind of water quality analysis of the water. But I still have yet to see anything.  But if i look now

 

http://faculty.ksu.edu.sa/khounganian/Interns%20Seminar/Zamzam-waterpublicationarticle.pdf

 

These results are lacking of counting analytes.

 

The Zamzam water exceeds regulatory safety standards in nitrate and dissolved solids (at least in my state of the US, they havent reported any analytes that are regulated by the EPA probably because theyd have exceedences) which would essentially means you probably dont want to drink it.  Now obviously the EPA nor state environmental departments arent necessarily worldwide safety standards but...

 

Regardless, the water doesnt just come from Saudi, and over generations you have water removed from the aquifer, and in various ways is re emitted into the atmosphere or into the earth all across the region and beyond.  For Saudi to say...No no, Zamzam can only come from this spot, is like them saying "no no, only air from this room is holy, even though the air comes from outside". And beyond that, the water doesnt appear to be particularly healthy or anything.

 

And sorry if this isnt the response youre looking for, but this topic has always bugged me. 

Edited by iCambrian

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They go through the trouble of analyzing the most basic things,

 

Here we go.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22138338

 

An actual publication,

 

http://www.pubfacts.com/detail/22138338/Zamzam-water:-concentration-of-trace-elements-and-other-characteristics.

 

"The average concentrations of As and NO(3) showed values three times higher than the WHO standards (27 μg L(-1) and 150 mg L(-1), respectively)."

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Small amounts of fouride are considered by dental experts to be good for you. Concentrations of flouride in public drinking water are regulated, so it should be fine. You can always get your water tested and see if the concentrations of flouride in your water are harmful for you.

 

Honestly, i think Saudi may deliberately avoid openly testing the water they provide.  You would think public water quality monitoring would be easy to find for zamzam water.  Instead, all you find are results for them testing things like its acidity, and its temperature.  But the temperature can be 10 degrees or 50 degrees, it still wont tell you if there are harmful contaminants in the water. Same with its acidity.

 

Between the reports i did find.  both of them noted exceedences in nitrate, one of them in arsenic (the other didnt have arsenic results), and the one had an exceedence in dissolved solids.

 

And, because the area, from my understanding is a heavily developed urban area, it should be a given that it is tested. I would like to see pesticide results, volatiles, semi volatiles, a full metals analysis, PCBs etc.  Instead, i cant find any of this stuff. And its not that expensive, I could pay for this out of my own pocket.  So the kingdom of saudi arabia would have no problem getting this testing done.

Edited by iCambrian

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Small amounts of fouride are considered by dental experts to be good for you. Concentrations of flouride in public drinking water are regulated, so it should be fine. You can always get your water tested and see if the concentrations of flouride in your water are harmful for you.

 

Honestly, i think Saudi may deliberately avoid openly testing the water they provide.  You would think public water quality monitoring would be easy to find for zamzam water.  Instead, all you find are results for them testing things like its acidity, and its temperature.  But the temperature can be 10 degrees or 50 degrees, it still wont tell you if there are harmful contaminants in the water. Same with its acidity.

 

Between the reports i did find.  both of them noted exceedences in nitrate, one of them in arsenic (the other didnt have arsenic results), and the one had an exceedence in dissolved solids.

 

And, because the area, from my understanding is a heavily developed urban area, it should be a given that it is tested. I would like to see pesticide results, volatiles, semi volatiles, a full metals analysis, PCBs etc.  Instead, i cant find any of this stuff. And its not that expensive, I could pay for this out of my own pocket.  So the kingdom of saudi arabia would have no problem getting this testing done.

 

Has there ever been any reason whatsoever to believe the Zamzam water is somehow unfit for drinking or washing? I mean, I've never heard of anyone getting sick or having any negative side effects from the drinking of or washing with water believed to be directly from Zamzam, so I don't see why this is such an urgent issue. And people don't necessarily want Zamzam water because of its physical properties. Honestly, it sounds to me like you're making some mountains out of molehills here.

 

If you really are concerned about the quality of the water people are bathing themselves with or drinking for religious purposes, I suggest you probably focus more of your efforts on the Ganges River in India first.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

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Has there ever been any reason whatsoever to believe the Zamzam water is somehow unfit for drinking or washing? I mean, I've never heard of anyone getting sick or having any negative side effects from the drinking of or washing with water believed to be directly from Zamzam, so I don't see why this is such an urgent issue. And people don't necessarily want Zamzam water because of its physical properties. Honestly, it sounds to me like you're making some mountains out of molehills here.

 

If you really are concerned about the quality of the water people are bathing themselves with or drinking for religious purposes, I suggest you probably focus more of your efforts on the Ganges River in India first.

 

If there are carcinogens over health standards in drinking water, it is detrimental to the health of those who consume it.  People who are harmed by it, likely wouldnt even be aware that it were the cause, if it were.  Its not an urgent issue so long as you arent the one drinking it, and you certainly can make the choice not to.

 

And this topic isnt about the ganges river..so i think ill pass on your second suggestion.  But if you would like to make a topic about the ganges, i would be more than happy to join in.  I am a geologist, but more specifically i work predominantly with groundwater and environmental geology, so i love talking about this stuff (its what i work with every day) and i am...to an extent aware of what it is.  I look at arsenic in groundwater all over the tri state area along with hundreds of other compounds, and assuming the publications cited above are truthful studies, drinking zamzam is probably something that people should pass on.

 

And I am actually concerned about what people drink, granted, business is business and often it comes down to saving us money and saving others money, but largely what we do is truly for peoples health.  Every day, when I am looking at water, one of the things that I investigate is...who may potentially be consuming this? Who is touching it? Where is it flowing? Where is it coming from? So, i dont want to give the impression that im just some anti islamic guy coming in here bashing on zamzam.  Arsenic in water is something i would comment on, regardless of if it were zamzam or some random water well in your back yard. 

 

And if people arent aware of this, they should probably look into it and be advised that, if they are purchasing this water and if they are drinking it, if they are uncertain of the origins of this water and what is in it, they should be careful...and that is professional advice from a scientist (me). And moreover, its common sense.

 

Health standards are typically determined by...what is essentially direct poisoning of animals such as mice or maybe bacteria, chimps etc..  So if people do a test where X amount of arsenic kills mice, then they turn and say...well this is harmful for mammals as a whole and that includes people, so you shouldnt drink over X amount or you run the risk of ending up like that dead test mouse. And a person may get cancer from this, and they may turn and say...well just bad luck i guess, maybe it was that mcdonalds i ate, or maybe it was just poor luck.  Unaware that it could have been what they drank.

And many harmful compounds you wont see, you wont smell, you wont even taste it. But some of them will put you in a hospital in a heartbeat.

Edited by iCambrian

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One of the main things that bugs me is...the fact that...i mean, everyone monitors their water.  Its really not that expensive (certainly not for the extensively wealthy Saudi government).  The Saudi Government could easily monitor zamzam water quality and could easily put the data out for the world, with their money, indefinetly.  But we dont find that.  I could find very extensive reports on groundwater for even the most simple and low key aquifers, but when it comes to zamzam, one of the most well known types of water...the data is almost non existant.

 

And im not making up some conspiracy theory here...i think the saudi government is deliberately not monitoring that water (not publically) and deliberately not doing this because theyre hiding something, and it may even go beyond just arsenic.  With all the new extensive construction and industrialization of that particular area (at least from what ive read), there is increasing probability that the aquifer will become increasingly contaminated. Thats just the nature of building a city near a water supply. And this goes for any city.  Which is why cities generally switch over to public water supplies and chlorinate their water and ya know, take various actions to treat it.  And im sure there is some form of treatment of zamzam that is supplied to people, but the hidden nature of zamzam water quality, i think is disturbing. A water supply so significant, should not have its quality shrouded or hidden.

Edited by iCambrian

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If there are carcinogens over health standards in drinking water, it is detrimental to the health of those who consume it.  People who are harmed by it, likely wouldnt even be aware that it were the cause, if it were.  Its not an urgent issue so long as you arent the one drinking it, and you certainly can make the choice not to.

 

But the thing is none of the papers you've cited seem to suggest that there is any significant issue with the Zamzam water at the present moment. It seems more like your own fears that MAYBE something is seriously, seriously wrong with it due to Saudi Arabia's building projects, which is a noble and understandable concern given the nature of Saudi Arabia's government, but which I don't think has any real definitive proof with regards to there being anything close to that level of danger. Rather than getting caught up in a hysteria over known unknowns and unknown unknowns, we should probably focus on what is known and act based on that.

 

Perhaps it's just because I am not as concerned about the purity of my drinking water (I kinda think 'pure water' is something of a myth since all water carries traces of something) and also because I think a lot of the things people say "this will cause cancer" are not very good studies to begin with so I'm always quite skeptical when people try to pin a singular cause of such phenomenon which don't always have such clear patterns or which don't take into the variety of factors which may cause or prevent such things, but you have not provided any real evidence though that there is anything particularly dangerous about Zamzam water or that those who have consumed large amounts of it have experienced any adverse side effects as a result or that such side effects can be definitively traced to people who have consumed it.

 

For me, it's like if someone came up and saw me drinking tap water and said "you know there's fluoride in that, right?" My typical response would be "Yeah, duh," because as you mentioned in an earlier post, the fluoride content of water is fairly regulated in the US and in small amounts is no big deal and may even be good for you, especially when supplemented with a proper vitamin rich diet.

 

Now, if there are traces of certain things in Zamzam water which, theoretically, could be toxic if consumed in highly concentrated amounts, then that may be a cause for concern if people are consuming enough of the water from sources which have these contents that there are proven side effects (assuming an amount of the water could be consumed by an individual to such extent). Likewise, if there are sources which contain these properties, especially if these properties may be healthy in moderate doses but dangerous in extreme doses, there should be transparent, public regulations of who is distributing the water outside of Saudi Arabia and which sources it comes from, especially if there may be a reason to believe that some of these properties may come from human agents rather than being a natural product of the well, I agree with you there. There is no reason for lacking that transparency other than Saudi Arabia's own negligence and defiance. I just don't think the matter is as serious as you would like to believe it is, especially when there is no evidence to suggest this water has ever been a cause of danger for anyone in the last thousand years or so. There's no reason for the average person to think that if they drink a cup of this water while on pilgrimage they are going to wake up the next morning with some kind of cancer or dead.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

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"But the thing is none of the papers you've cited seem to suggest that there is any significant issue with the Zamzam water at the present moment."

 

It notes exceedences in arsenic and nitrate...


There are countless studies and research papers on the harms of arsenic as a carcinogen.  If you would really like, i can take my time and look some usefull ones up.


Hers the one paper noted above

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22138338

 

and within the abstract...

 

"The quality of the water did not change for 2 years and there was an excellent agreement among the results of the 30 water samples as well as between the results of the 2 years for the same samples analyzed in 2007 and 2008. The water is alkaline (average pH is 8) with an average Li concentration of 15 μg L(-1). The average concentrations of As and NO(3) showed values three times higher than the WHO standards (27 μg L(-1) and 150 mg L(-1), respectively)."

 

And I noticed these exceedences in epa standards even before finding this particular research paper.

Edited by iCambrian

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It notes exceedences in arsenic and nitrate...

 

And yet it also notes that "some types of arsenic are used as medicines"

 

The question is, are there any cases in which we can say that Zamzam water has ever proven to have a negative effect on anyone's health? As far as we know, no, there's hasn't been, so while Saudi Arabia's lack of sufficient regulation of the water is a concern, there is no reason to suspect the issue at this point is a dire one.

 

There are countless studies and research papers on the harms of arsenic as a carcinogen.

 

Well, I'm a smoker, so talking to me about the potential dangers of carcinogens isn't really enough to convince to not consume something.

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well, thats your choice if you wish to smoke.  At least you are aware of the harms of smoking.  Imagine if people around the world were buying cigarettes, but werent aware of the harmful effects of it...


check this out...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_lethal_dose

 

one sec...

Edited by iCambrian

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And yet it also notes that "some types of arsenic are used as medicines"

 

The question is, are there any cases in which we can say that Zamzam water has ever proven to have a negative effect on anyone's health? As far as we know, no, there's hasn't been, so while Saudi Arabia's lack of sufficient regulation of the water is a concern, there is no reason to suspect the issue at this point is a dire one.

 

 

Well, I'm a smoker, so talking to me about the potential dangers of carcinogens isn't really enough to convince to not consume something.

 

"The question is, are there any cases in which we can say that Zamzam water has ever proven to have a negative effect on anyone's health?"

 

You could never do this, you could never even prove that cigarettes are the direct cause of a single specific case of lung cancer.  You could only demonstrate what is factually harmful and leave it to peoples disgression to choose what they want to do with themselves.  You only really have ah...whats the phrase.  Circumstancial evidence. Some will pass away unknowing of the source.  Others will be perfectly fine.

In this scenario, you dont want to mess around all willy nilly like...oh well, it killed rats but theres no evidence for the suggestion that it would kill me...im not a rat so its ok, im gonna drink it.

 

You take precaution.  And again, anyone can do whatever they want. Just as people can choose to smoke, someone can choose to consume anything that may be harmful for them.

 

But at least youre aware of it. You can openly research the contents that are in cigarettes and you can research clean air standards and do the math and check it out.

 

But we cant do this with zamzam water...one of the most well known sources of water, and we are in the dark...

And you certainly cant prove that zamzam is harming people if you dont know whats in it...

But maybe there is research out there outlining what is in zamzam, but i have searched a few times now and i still havent found anything.

Edited by iCambrian

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http://www.academicjournals.org/article/article1380708982_Abdullah%20et%20al.pdf

 

This appears to be good with referenced articles

 

"Acute toxicity of arsenic occurs at 21 mg/L (Feinglass, 1973). The most common lesions associated with chronic arsenic toxicity occur in children after 5 years following minimum exposure and the cardiovascular effects occur in children exposed to levels higher than 0.6 mg/L (Zaldivar, 1980; Zaldivar and Ghai, 1980)."

 

 

thats 21,000 ug/l and 600 ug/l, with 27 ug/l in zamzam.  Not as bad as i initially thought, but still not particularly good either.

Edited by iCambrian

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