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In the Name of God بسم الله

Imam Ali (As) On The Calipha

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Glitzmen

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This pretty much sums it up...

 

"At that moment, nothing took me by surprise, but the crowd of people rushing to me. It advanced towards me from every side like the mane of the hyena so much so that Hasan and Husayn were getting crushed and both the ends of my shoulder garment were torn. They collected around me like a herd of sheep and goats. When I took up the reins of government one party broke away and another turned disobedient while the rest began acting wrongfully as if they had not heard the word of Allah saying:"

 

http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-Allah-son-abu-quhafah

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Whay happend when Imam Ali (as) became a calipha of Muslims? We're sunni and Shia together in one ummah?

 

(salam)

Shia means supporters. It was not a sect. There were also Shia of Uthman etc. But all of them were Sunnis, meaning they all believed in the Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet (saw). They did not believe that Ali and his descendants were divinely appointed. Even several Shia scholars have admitted that majority of the Shia and Supporters of Ali were Sunni in their beliefs. 

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(salam)

Even several Shia scholars have admitted that majority of the Shia and Supporters of Ali were Sunni in their beliefs.

(salam)

Why would they support Imam Ali (as) in the first place, if they believed in popular elections rather than divine appointment?

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(salam)

Why would they support Imam Ali (as) in the first place, if they believed in popular elections rather than divine appointment?

 

(wasalam) brother,

There was no such thing as 'divine appointment'. Ali (ra) became the ruler through the bayah of the people. He never claimed he was appointed by Allah. 

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(salam)

Shia means supporters. It was not a sect. There were also Shia of Uthman etc. But all of them were Sunnis, meaning they all believed in the Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet (saw). They did not believe that Ali and his descendants were divinely appointed. Even several Shia scholars have admitted that majority of the Shia and Supporters of Ali were Sunni in their beliefs. 

 

You are joking right? Do you know when the name Sunni came into existence? 

 

Is the part highlighted above, the reason why a new narration was forged to justify the belief when clearly the Prophet (pbuh) said follow the Quran and my progeny (as) which is alhumdulillah what Shias do. But that doesn't mean that we do not follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). We in fact follow it more than the Sunnis described above.

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(wasalam) brother,

There was no such thing as 'divine appointment'. Ali (ra) became the ruler through the bayah of the people. He never claimed he was appointed by Allah. 

 

What do you say about the reports from later Imams [as] who referred to Ghadir as divine appointment? We have hadiths from Imam al-Sadiq [as] which argue this. 

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(salam)

Shia means supporters. It was not a sect. There were also Shia of Uthman etc. But all of them were Sunnis, meaning they all believed in the Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet (saw). They did not believe that Ali and his descendants were divinely appointed. Even several Shia scholars have admitted that majority of the Shia and Supporters of Ali were Sunni in their beliefs. 

 

When and where? So you think Imam Abu Hanifa and co diverted the Sunnis from true Islam represented by Imam Jafar Sadiq a.s?

(salam)

Shia means supporters. It was not a sect. There were also Shia of Uthman etc. But all of them were Sunnis, meaning they all believed in the Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet (saw). They did not believe that Ali and his descendants were divinely appointed. Even several Shia scholars have admitted that majority of the Shia and Supporters of Ali were Sunni in their beliefs. 

 

What people were used to say about Abu Bakar? Was he divinely appointed caliph as per Sunni school? I shall wait for you answer. 

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What people were used to say about Abu Bakar? Was he divinely appointed caliph as per Sunni school? I shall wait for you answer. 

 

Sunnis say he was not 'divinely appointed' in the same sense that Shi'is would say Imam `Ali [as] was. Rather, Abu Bakr merely inherited the political leadership left behind by the Prophet of Allah [sawa]. 

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Sunnis say he was not 'divinely appointed' in the same sense that Shi'is would say Imam `Ali [as] was. Rather, Abu Bakr merely inherited the political leadership left behind by the Prophet of Allah [sawa]. 

 

Then why kept on shouting that Shias are Kafir because they deny Khilafah of abu bakr. When Abu bakr was not divinely appointed then no reason remains for being Kafir for rejecting his caliphate. 

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What do you say about the reports from later Imams [as] who referred to Ghadir as divine appointment? We have hadiths from Imam al-Sadiq [as] which argue this. 

 

(salam)

 

I will not be surprised if Shia have narrations calling Ghadir divine appointment but the truth is Ali and the muslims of his time never ever believed in any appointment at Ghadir or any divine appointment but I am still interested if you could quote the narration. 

 

 

Then why kept on shouting that Shias are Kafir because they deny Khilafah of abu bakr. When Abu bakr was not divinely appointed then no reason remains for being Kafir for rejecting his caliphate. 

 

The extremist and takfiri Shias, especially the Imamiyah, not only deny the Khilafa of Abubakr (ra) but they also slander him, curse him and call him a disbeliever. 

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(salam)

 

I will not be surprised if Shia have narrations calling Ghadir divine appointment but the truth is Ali and the muslims of his time never ever believed in any appointment at Ghadir or any divine appointment but I am still interested if you could quote the narration. 

 

 

(salam)

 

علي بن إبراهيم، عن ابيه، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن عمر بن اذينة، عن زرارة والفضيل بن يسار، وبكير بن أعين ومحمد بن مسلم وبريد بن معاوية وأبي الجارود جميعا عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال: أمر الله عز وجل رسوله

بولاية علي وأنزل عليه " إنما وليكم الله ورسوله والذين آمنوا الذين يقيمون الصلاة ويؤتون الزكاة " وفرض ولاية أولي الامر، فلم يدروا ما هي، فأمر الله محمدا صلى الله عليه وآله أن يفسر لهم الولاية، كما فسر لهم الصلاة، والزكاة والصوم والحج، فلما أتاه ذلك من الله، ضاق بذلك صدر رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وتخوف أن يرتدوا عن دينهم وأن يكذبوه فضاق صدره وراجع ربه عز وجل فأوحى الله عز وجل إليه " يا أيها الرسول بلغ ما أنزل إليك من ربك وإن لم تفعل فما بلغت رسالته والله يعصمك من الناس " فصدع بأمر الله تعالى ذكره فقام بولاية علي عليه السلام يوم غدير خم، فنادى الصلاة جامعة وأمر الناس أن يبلغ الشاهد الغائب. - قال عمر بن اذينة: قالوا جميعا غير أبي الجارود - وقال أبو جعفر عليه السلام: وكانت الفريضة تنزل بعد الفريضة الاخرى وكانت الولاية آخر الفرائض، فأنزل الله عز وجل " اليوم أكملت لكم دينكم وأتممت عليكم نعمتي " قال أبو جعفر عليه السلام: يقول الله عز وجل: لا انزل عليكم بعد هذه فريضة، قد أكملت لكم الفرائض.

 

`Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from ibn Abi `Umayr from `Umar b. Udhayna from Zurara, al-Fudayl b. Yasar, Bukayr b. A`yan, Muhammad b. Muslim, Burayd b. Mu`awiya and Abu’l Jarud together from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام.

 

He said: The wilaya of `Ali was an order from Allah عز وجل to His messenger, and He revealed upon him, “Verily your guardian is Allah, His messenger, and those who believed – who stand in prayer and give the zakat…” (5:55). And He made the wilaya of the Possessors of the Command (ulu ‘l-amr) obligatory, and they did not understand what it was; so Allah ordered Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله to interpret [and clarify] the wilaya to them, just as he interpreted salat, zakat, sawm, and Hajj. When Allah gave that [order] to him, the chest of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله tightened, and he feared that they would apostatize from their religion and bely him – so his chest tightened. He consulted his Lord عز وجل, so Allah عز وجل inspired to him, “O Messenger, preach what is revealed to you from your Lord. If you do not preach, it will be as though you have not conveyed My Message, and Allah will protect you from the people”. (5:67) So he executed the command of Allah تعالى ذكره and declared the wilaya of `Ali عليه السلام on the day of Ghadeer Khumm. He called for a congregational prayer and commanded the people to bear testimony and inform the absent. 

 

 

`Umar b. Udhayna said: All except Abu’l Jarud said: 

And Abu Ja`far عليه السلام said: And an obligation would be revealed after the other, and the wilaya was the final obligation, so Allah عز وجل revealed, “Today I have perfected for you your religion and completed my favour…” (5:3). Abu Ja`far عليه السلام said: Allah عز وجل says: I will not reveal to you any obligation after this – I have completed for you the obligations. 

 

 

(al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 753)

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(salam)

Shia means supporters. It was not a sect. There were also Shia of Uthman etc. But all of them were Sunnis, meaning they all believed in the Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet (saw). They did not believe that Ali and his descendants were divinely appointed. Even several Shia scholars have admitted that majority of the Shia and Supporters of Ali were Sunni in their beliefs. 

 

This is a silly contradictory statement to make. During the time of the first three oppressors and the time of `Ali (as), there was no "Shi`i ithna `Ashari" or "Sunni" label. Nobody called themselves either of those. If you're trying to claim that there were non who belived in the wilayah of `Ali ibn Abi Talib (as) you only have to look through Shi`i and Sunni accounts and narrations of the those like Salman, Abu Dharr, al-Miqdad etc. to find that those who were very close to him actually possessed these Imami beliefs like for example raj`ah. Of course, all that happens to those is that they are dubbed as followers of `Abdullah ibn Saba' عليه لعنة الله because Sunni historians would not dare attribute these teachings as that of Imam `Ali (as).

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This is a silly contradictory statement to make. During the time of the first three oppressors and the time of `Ali (as), there was no "Shi`i ithna `Ashari" or "Sunni" label. Nobody called themselves either of those. If you're trying to claim that there were non who belived in the wilayah of `Ali ibn Abi Talib (as) you only have to look through Shi`i and Sunni accounts and narrations of the those like Salman, Abu Dharr, al-Miqdad etc. to find that those who were very close to him actually possessed these Imami beliefs like for example raj`ah. Of course, all that happens to those is that they are dubbed as followers of `Abdullah ibn Saba' عليه لعنة الله because Sunni historians would not dare attribute these teachings as that of Imam `Ali (as).

 

I agree with you about the label. I said they were all Sunnis because they believed in the Quran and Sunnah but they were not known as Sunni. Shia, who appeared during rule of Ali, were not a sect with different beliefs but they were political supporters of Ali but they also believed in Imamah of the caliphs that preceded Ali. 

 

As far what you claimed about Salman, Abu Dhar etc then it would be better if you create a new thread and provide your evidences. Keep in mind that Salman, Ammar and other companions who were close to Ali were soldiers, commanders and governors during the rule of Abubakr and Umar. 

Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani
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As far what you claimed about Salman, Abu Dhar etc then it would be better if you create a new thread and provide your evidences. 

 

It is well known that many prominant Sahaba including the above mentioned initially withheld their bay`a to Abu Bakr. What is interesting is they seemed to have later all given allegiance after the Imam [as] did. 

 

Agreed. Perhaps a thread could be opened to discuss this specific issue. 

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I agree with you about the label. I said they were all Sunnis because they believed in the Quran and Sunnah but they were not known as Sunni. Shia, who appeared during rule of Ali, were not a sect with different beliefs

 

When you put it like that and say that they all followed the "Qur'an and Sunnah" it sure does sound nice. But that doesn't prove anything because establishing the Sunnah comes from two routes. Either [1] `Adalat al-Sahabah, where you can establish that what has been narrated from a Sahabi is completely correct, or [2] Ahl al-Bayt, where one establishes the Sunnah from them.

 

I could easily counter you and say that the Sahabah killed each other, did takfeer of each other, slandered each other, and non of the Sahabah of the time believed every Sahabi was `Adl. Therefore, it could be said, there was no "modern Sunnism" during that time. In fact, it's probably easier to establish that there were those who believed in the wilayah of `Ali (as).

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The extremist and takfiri Shias, especially the Imamiyah, not only deny the Khilafa of Abubakr (ra) but they also slander him, curse him and call him a disbeliever. 

 

Do you have recent Fatwa of Ayatullah Khamnei ?

 

He clearly said " it is haraam to curse Muqaddasat of Ahle Sunnat whether intentionally or not "

 

In this Fatwa he mentioned two things.:-

1. Hazrat Abu Bakr is Caliph for Ahle Sunnat so he is Muqaddas for them.

2. Beliver of Imamiyah will not curse them so whatever breaking Unity is going to stop.

 

Now if you remain blaming them then Fatwa will not work properly. One side if stopping curse then other side should appreciate it and come forward as a brother.

 

and for your Divine Appointment Query

 

Is this not enough ?

 

"Verily, your Master is but Allah and His Apostle and those who believe, who establish prayers, and pay the Zakat while bowed in worship."(Quran-5:55)

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 In fact, it's probably easier to establish that there were those who believed in the wilayah of `Ali (as).

 

This would need to be analysed and defined so it can be understood correctly. How the Imam [as] and Companions would of understood it. 

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(salam)

 

علي بن إبراهيم، عن ابيه، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن عمر بن اذينة، عن زرارة والفضيل بن يسار، وبكير بن أعين ومحمد بن مسلم وبريد بن معاوية وأبي الجارود جميعا عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قالأمر الله عز وجل رسوله

بولاية علي وأنزل عليه " إنما وليكم الله ورسوله والذين آمنوا الذين يقيمون الصلاة ويؤتون الزكاة " وفرض ولاية أولي الامر، فلم يدروا ما هي، فأمر الله محمدا صلى الله عليه وآله أن يفسر لهم الولاية، كما فسر لهم الصلاة، والزكاة والصوم والحج، فلما أتاه ذلك من الله، ضاق بذلك صدر رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وتخوف أن يرتدوا عن دينهم وأن يكذبوه فضاق صدره وراجع ربه عز وجل فأوحى الله عز وجل إليه " يا أيها الرسول بلغ ما أنزل إليك من ربك وإن لم تفعل فما بلغت رسالته والله يعصمك من الناس " فصدع بأمر الله تعالى ذكره فقام بولاية علي عليه السلام يوم غدير خم، فنادى الصلاة جامعة وأمر الناس أن يبلغ الشاهد الغائب. - قال عمر بن اذينةقالوا جميعا غير أبي الجارود - وقال أبو جعفر عليه السلاموكانت الفريضة تنزل بعد الفريضة الاخرى وكانت الولاية آخر الفرائض، فأنزل الله عز وجل " اليوم أكملت لكم دينكم وأتممت عليكم نعمتي " قال أبو جعفر عليه السلاميقول الله عز وجللا انزل عليكم بعد هذه فريضة، قد أكملت لكم الفرائض.

 

`Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from ibn Abi `Umayr from `Umar b. Udhayna from Zurara, al-Fudayl b. Yasar, Bukayr b. A`yan, Muhammad b. Muslim, Burayd b. Mu`awiya and Abu’l Jarud together from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام.

 

He said: The wilaya of `Ali was an order from Allah عز وجل to His messenger, and He revealed upon him, “Verily your guardian is Allah, His messenger, and those who believed – who stand in prayer and give the zakat…” (5:55). And He made the wilaya of the Possessors of the Command (ulu ‘l-amr) obligatory, and they did not understand what it was; so Allah ordered Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله to interpret [and clarify] the wilaya to them, just as he interpreted salat, zakat, sawm, and Hajj. When Allah gave that [order] to him, the chest of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله tightened, and he feared that they would apostatize from their religion and bely him – so his chest tightened. He consulted his Lord عز وجل, so Allah عز وجل inspired to him, “O Messenger, preach what is revealed to you from your Lord. If you do not preach, it will be as though you have not conveyed My Message, and Allah will protect you from the people”. (5:67) So he executed the command of Allah تعالى ذكره and declared the wilaya of `Ali عليه السلام on the day of Ghadeer Khumm. He called for a congregational prayer and commanded the people to bear testimony and inform the absent. 

 

 

`Umar b. Udhayna said: All except Abu’l Jarud said: 

And Abu Ja`far عليه السلام said: And an obligation would be revealed after the other, and the wilaya was the final obligation, so Allah عز وجل revealed, “Today I have perfected for you your religion and completed my favour…” (5:3). Abu Ja`far عليه السلام said: Allah عز وجل says: I will not reveal to you any obligation after this – I have completed for you the obligations. 

 

 

(al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 753)

 

(wasalam)

Thank you for the narration. Is the narration Sahih according to Shia?

 

 

 

It is well known that many prominant Sahaba including the above mentioned initially withheld their bay`a to Abu Bakr. What is interesting is they seemed to have later all given allegiance after the Imam [as] did. 
 

Agreed. Perhaps a thread could be opened to discuss this specific issue. 

(salam)

 

That has nothing to do with the claim that they believed in divine appointment of Ali. 

 

 

 

When you put it like that and say that they all followed the "Qur'an and Sunnah" it sure does sound nice. But that doesn't prove anything because establishing the Sunnah comes from two routes. Either [1] `Adalat al-Sahabah, where you can establish that what has been narrated from a Sahabi is completely correct, or [2] Ahl al-Bayt, where one establishes the Sunnah from them.

 

I could easily counter you and say that the Sahabah killed each other, did takfeer of each other, slandered each other, and non of the Sahabah of the time believed every Sahabi was `Adl. Therefore, it could be said, there was no "modern Sunnism" during that time. In fact, it's probably easier to establish that there were those who believed in the wilayah of `Ali (as).

 

The two routes you mentioned are actually one route.

Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani
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(wasalam)

Thank you for the narration. Is the narration Sahih according to Shia?

 

 

Yes. 

 

 

(salam)

 

That has nothing to do with the claim that they believed in divine appointment of Ali. 

 

 

 

(wasalam)

 

I am fully aware of that. It is, however, still interesting that they all waited until after the Imam [as] gave his bay`a to do the same. 

Edited by Ali Musaaa :)
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Yes. 

 

 

 

(wasalam)

 

I am fully aware of that. It is, however, still interesting that they all waited until after the Imam [as] gave his bay`a to do the same. 

Could this perhaps been due to more political inclinations as opposed to believing Imam Ali (as) is a divinely appointed infallible Imam? 

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Could this perhaps been due to more political inclinations as opposed to believing Imam Ali (as) is a divinely appointed infallible Imam? 

 

That could be it. There is certainly no doubt that some wanted `Ali to be the Caliph. Whether they believed he was divinely appointed Imam is another question. 

Edited by Ali Musaaa :)
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Yes. 

 

(salam)

Thank you.

 

Abul Hussain Hassani

 

What do you say in regards to the hadith I posted earlier? 

 

 

There is a problem with the narration. The narration says Wilayah is the last obligation from Allah but we know that according to Shia Wilayah was already announced many times (5:55, 4:59 etc) before many other obligations i.e. Hajj etc so it can't be the last obligation. 

 

If you accept the narration you quoted then you have to reject all Shia arguments and claims about verses of 5:55, 4:59 etc that were revealed before Ghadir Khum.

Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani
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(salam)

Thank you.

There is a problem with the narration. The narration says Wilayah is the last obligation from Allah but we know that according to Shia Wilayah was already announced many times (5:55, 4:59 etc) before many other obligations i.e. Hajj etc so it can't be the last obligation.

If you accept the narration you quoted then you have to reject all Shia arguments and claims about verses of 5:55, 4:59 etc that were revealed before Ghadir Khum.

(salam)

The narration says that it was ordered that the prophet(saw) clarify the wiliyah already established by 5:55, as it was not clear for some. Seems to fall in place to me.

(wasalam)

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(salam)

The narration says that it was ordered that the prophet(saw) clarify the wiliyah already established by 5:55, as it was not clear for some. Seems to fall in place to me.

(wasalam)

 

(wasalam) 

 

If it was already established like you said through 5:55 then it was not the last obligation and this is the problem with the narration. 

Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani
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