Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
Seeker123

Jaffar & Baqir (As) Praising Abu Bakr Authentic?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Salam aleykum

Are thw following ahadiths authentic?

Hadith 1:

Once the wife of Imam Jaffar as sadiq asked him about Abu Bakr and Umar. He replied, "I support them ( Abu bakr and Umar)."Then he said to his wife,"you should support them also." His wife replied,"So should I say to my creator when I meet Him, that it is your order to support Abu Bakr and Umar." The truthful Imam Jaffar replied,"Yes."[ Shiite source:Rawzatul Kafi, vol.8, p.101]

Hadith 2:

Once Imam Muhammad al-baqir while sitting with his companions, praised Abu Bakr by calling him the truthful ("as-Siddiq"). one of his companions got astonished by this remark and inquiried if he(the Imam) really meant what he said. Upon this Imam al-Baqir replied, "yes Abu Bakr is the truthful and whoever does not give this attribution to him, then may God make that person(who did not give the attribute) helpless on the day of ressurection"[shiite source:Kashful Ghumamah, vol.2, p.174]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont think we even have such books. Never heard of them. Someone else opinion:

 

The first hadith is nowhere to be found in Rawdhatul-Kafi.

The second hadith is nowhere to be found in Kashf-ul-Ghummah.

The third hadith is in Kashf-ul-Ghummah but not in Bihar-ul-Anwar, but it is a Sunni hadith, as is a lot of hadiths in Kashf-ul-Ghummah. Simply being in this book does not prove anything, and there is no effect for Shias from what is in that book.

Edited by PureEthics

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These hadith are pumped in Internet bcoz they know there Audience, there Audience are so innocent that even Shaitan left them alone and don't want to disturb them from there path.

 

They know there audience will never check if the hadith is authentic or not , and even available in the book or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are Mutawattir hadith in Sunni books from al-Sadiq [as] through his father [as] of Imam `Ali [as] praising Abu Bakr. 

 

It's not suprising there could be similar hadith in our works as well. 

 

But these could be explained away as Taqiyya.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most of the times these people give page references from translated versions of the book rather than the original without mentioning what edition or translation they are talking about. It's crazy. It's like saying Holy Quran page 152.. how's that? who can tell what's there...? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aban from Abu Baseer, he said: I was sitting with Abi `Abdillah (as) and Um Khalid entered upon us... So she asked him about those two so he said accept their wilayah, she said: So I will say to my Lord that you ordered me to accept their wilayah? He said: Yes. She said: This man with you (Abu Baseer) orders me to disassociate myself from them and many of the Nawwa' tell me to accept their wilayah. What is better and what is more beloved to you? He said: By Allah this man (Abu Baseer) is more beloved to me...

 

 أَبَانٌ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ قَالَ كُنْتُ جَالِساً عِنْدَ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) إِذْ دَخَلَتْ عَلَيْنَا أُمُّ خَالِدٍ الَّتِي كَانَ قَطَعَهَا يُوسُفُ بْنُ عُمَرَ تَسْتَأْذِنُ عَلَيْهِ فَقَالَ أَبُو عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) أَ يَسُرُّكَ أَنْ تَسْمَعَ كَلَامَهَا قَالَ فَقُلْتُ نَعَمْ قَالَ فَأَذِنَ لَهَا قَالَ وَ أَجْلَسَنِي مَعَهُ عَلَى الطِّنْفِسَةِ قَالَ ثُمَّ دَخَلَتْ فَتَكَلَّمَتْ فَإِذَا امْرَأَةٌ بَلِيغَةٌ فَسَأَلَتْهُ عَنْهُمَا فَقَالَ لَهَا تَوَلَّيْهِمَا قَالَتْ فَأَقُولُ لِرَبِّي إِذَا لَقِيتُهُ إِنَّكَ أَمَرْتَنِي بِوَلَايَتِهِمَا قَالَ نَعَمْ قَالَتْ فَإِنَّ هَذَا الَّذِي مَعَكَ عَلَى الطِّنْفِسَةِ يَأْمُرُنِي بِالْبَرَاءَةِ مِنْهُمَا وَ كَثِيرٌ النَّوَّاءُ يَأْمُرُنِي بِوَلَايَتِهِمَا فَأَيُّهُمَا خَيْرٌ وَ أَحَبُّ إِلَيْكَ قَالَ هَذَا وَ اللَّهِ أَحَبُّ إِلَيَّ مِنْ كَثِيرٍ النَّوَّاءِ وَ أَصْحَابِهِ إِنَّ هَذَا تَخَاصَمَ فَيَقُولُ وَ مَنْ لَمْ يَحْكُمْ بِما أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولئِكَ هُمُ الْكافِرُونَ وَ مَنْ لَمْ يَحْكُمْ بِما أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولئِكَ هُمُ الظَّالِمُونَ وَ مَنْ لَمْ يَحْكُمْ بِما أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولئِكَ هُمُ الْفاسِقُونَ .

 

Ok, as I mentioned I was in a hurry and that is a dodgy translation.

 

Rather the narration is like this:

 

Aban, from Abu Baseer, from Abi `Abdillah (as): Um Khalid entered... so she asked him (al-Sadiq) about the two (Abu Bakr and `Umar), so he said: Accept their wilayah. So she said: So I should say to my lord that you ordered me to accept their wilayah. He said: Yes. She said: This man with you sitting on the carpet orders me to disassociate myself from them, and Katheer Al-Nawwa' [the well-known "batri"] orders me to accept their wilayah, so which of them is better and more beloved to you? He said: By Allah this man [Abu Baseer] is more beloved to me than Katheer al-Nawa' and his companions...

 

Note: the batriyyah were those who mixed the wilayah of Imam `Ali (as) with Abu Bakr and `Umar.

Edited by al-Ya`qubi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you sure? The Batriyya were actually Zaydis, were they not? They were the more leniant of the two streams of Kufan Zaydism.

 

Yeah it looks they were a sub-sect of the Zaydiyyah. It's been mentioned in some books on the different Shee`ah sects that started developing. Also this has been mentioned in Rijal al-Kashi:

 

و البترية :هم أصحاب كثير النواء، و الحسن بن صالح بن حي، و سالم بن أبي حفصة، و الحكم بن عتيبة، و سلمة بن كهيل، و أبو المقدام ثابت الحداد، و هم الذين دعوا إلى ولاية علي (عليه السلام) ثم خلطوها بولاية أبي بكر و عمر و يثبتون لهما إمامتهما، و ينتقصون عثمان و طلحة و الزبير، و يرون الخروج مع بطون ولد علي بن أبي طالب يذهبون في ذلك إلى الأمر بالمعروف و النهي عن المنكر، و يثبتون لكل من خرج من ولد علي (عليه السلام) عند خروجه الإمامة.

They would call to the wilayah of `Ali and then mix it with the wilayah of Abu Bakr and `Umar, and claim their Imamah and lower Uthman and Talhah and Zubayr.

 

Obviously that's not the same as the Zaydis but hence the description "sub-sect".

Edited by al-Ya`qubi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

 

There are Mutawattir hadith in Sunni books from al-Sadiq [as] through his father [as] of Imam `Ali [as] praising Abu Bakr. 

 

It's not suprising there could be similar hadith in our works as well. 

 

But these could be explained away as Taqiyya.

 

Yeah mutawatir is a far stretch. They come from al-Mizzi's Kamal which many - if not most - of the chains are broken and mursal. Another thing to keep note of is Mizzi is a Shaami scholar, so is the al-Maqdisi whose work Mizzi is pulling from

 

في أمان الله

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bismillah

Just some advice brother, you don't need to reply to every thread and post, especially if you don't have information on the subject. It is something i see you do often.

You not having heard of Rawdhat al-Kaafi may be considered embarrassing by some (the whole complaint that Shi'ite are more familiar with Sunnite Ahadith book then their own).

Rawdha is the 8th book of the al-Kaafi selection by Muhammad bin Ya`qub al-Kulayni.

Also, don't post answers you are not sure of. I havent looked for the hadith myself, but another brother in the thread is claiming that they do exist and the references are correct. Practicing precaution and dealing with religious issues with a lot more fear is not a bad thing.

It's not wajib to reply. :)

Thanks for the advice. It is wajib to reply when someone is misguiding people. So please be more active, and post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Though the question is pretty much answered by Al-Yaqubi for the first hadith, I just wanted to share another scholarly discussion regarding it. It seems that the mukhalifin are very unoriginal and the Arabic Mukhalifin have used this hadith in their own works before the English speaking ones got their hands on it. It appears in the book called "Lillah Thumma Liltarikh" (A book written by a very stupid Sunni attempting to refute Shiism), Sheikh Ali Aal Muhsin has written a complete refutation to this book called "Lillah Wa Lilhaqiqat" and has discussed this narration and the arguments the author has brought up about it. It can be read here: http://shiaweb.org/books/llah_llhaq/pa20.html

 

And it is not far fetched that this Hadith was in taqiyya because of the end (he says that Abu Basir is more beloved to him and Abu Basir believes in disassociating from them) and I believe this is more valid than just disqualifying the hadith because it's weak (but this is my opinion). The Imam himself disassociates from Abu Bakr and Umar when (on the next page in Hadith 74):

 

خبرني عن الرجلين؟ قال: ظلمانا حقنا في كتاب الله عز وجل ومنعا فاطمة صلوات الله عليها ميراثها من أبيها وجرى ظلمهما إلى اليوم، قال - وأشار إلى خلفه - ونبذا كتاب الله وراء ظهورهما.
 
(Rough Translation): Inform me about the two men? He (as) said: "They oppressed our right in the Book of Allah (azw), and prevented Fatima (sa) from her inheritence from her father and dragged their injustice until today."...
 
Al-Kafi volume 8 page 102 hadith 74 (Hadith of Imam Al-Sadiq (as)). And there are many many more disassociating themselves from Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and the rest of the oppressors of Muhammad and Aal Muhammad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

And it is not far fetched that this Hadith was in taqiyya because of the end (he says that Abu Basir is more beloved to him and Abu Basir believes in disassociating from them) and I believe this is more valid than just disqualifying the hadith because it's weak (but this is my opinion). 

 

 

 

All narrations which give a friendly gesture towards the three caliphs were under the umbrella of taqiyya? Is this what taqiyya is really meant for? cuz i heard it can only be practiced in case ur OR anyones life is in danger. I dont see this situation applying over here.

 

 

 

 

The Imam himself disassociates from Abu Bakr and Umar when (on the next page in Hadith 74):

 

 

 

Well than there is a serious problem i guess. I am sure u have heard abt the six martyrs of shia islam. One of them was Nurullah Shustri, author of the famous book "Majalis ul Momineen" copies a narration in his book "Ihqaq-ul-Haq" (Justification of the Truth) in which ur sixth imam Jafar sadiq answers a question on Abu Bakr & Umar (may Allah be pleased with them all) by praising them  saying they were just & on sirat e mustaqeem & they died in the path of Allah swt   Ihqaq-ul-Haq vol 1 page 16

 

 

 

There are many other narrations found in different books from which we can conclude the Ali [ra] had no issues with Abu Bakr [ra]

 

What are ur views on "Tarikh al Yaqubi"  & "Sharh Nahjul Balagha" by ibn ali al hadid?

Edited by Invoker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All narrations which give a friendly gesture towards the three caliphs were under the umbrella of taqiyya? Is this what taqiyya is really meant for? cuz i heard it can only be practiced in case ur OR anyones life is in danger. I dont see this situation applying over here.

 

Well than there is a serious problem i guess. I am sure u have heard abt the six martyrs of shia islam. One of them was Nurullah Shustri, author of the famous book "Majalis ul Momineen" copies a narration in his book "Ihqaq-ul-Haq" (Justification of the Truth) in which ur sixth imam Jafar sadiq answers a question on Abu Bakr & Umar (may Allah be pleased with them all) by praising them  saying they were just & on sirat e mustaqeem & they died in the path of Allah swt   Ihqaq-ul-Haq vol 1 page 16

 

There are many other narrations found in different books from which we can conclude the Ali [ra] had no issues with Abu Bakr [ra]

 

What are ur views on "Tarikh al Yaqubi"  & "Sharh Nahjul Balagha" by ibn ali al hadid?

 

Taqiyya makes sense in this case and I gave my reasoning is because the end of the Hadith.

 

And it's very difficult to verify ahadith when you don't give Arabic, page 16 in Ihqaq Al-Haq is the introduction in which Allama Tusturi. The Hadith you're referring to is found on page 70 of Ihqaq Al-Haq:

 

منها ما روى أنه سأل رجل من المخالفين عن الإمام الصادق عليه السلام وقال: يا إبن رسول الله ما تقول في أبي بكر وعمر : فقال عليه السلام : هما إمامان عادلان قاسطان كان على الحق، وماته عليه، فعليهما رحمة الله يوم القيام ، فلما انصرف الناس قال له ، رجل من خاصته : يا رسول الله لقد تعجبت مما قلت في الحق أبي بكر وعمر . فقال: نعم، هما إماما أهل النار كما قال الله سبحانه: وجعلناهم أئمة يدعون إلى النار ( ١) وأما القاسطان فقد قال الله تعالى: وأما القاسطون فكانوا لجهنم حطبا ( ٢) وأما العادلان فلعدولهم عن الحق كقوله تعالى ثم الذين كفروا بربهم يعدلون ( ٣) والمراد من الحق الذي كانا مستوليين عليه هو أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام حيث أذياه وغصبا حقه عنه، والمراد من موتهما على الحق أنهما ماتا على عداوته من غير ندامة عن ذلك، والمراد من رحمة الله، رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله، فإنه كان رحمة للعالمين ( ٤) وسيكون خصما لهما ساخطا عليهما منتقما منهما يوم الدين

 

http://www.mediafire.com/view/dqo967tm9fedpi8/%D8%A7%D8%AD%D9%82%D8%A7%D9%82+%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AD%D9%82+%D9%88%D8%A7%D8%B2%D9%87%D8%A7%D9%82+%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%B7%D9%84+%D8%AC1+-+%D9%86%D9%88%D8%B1+%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%84%D9%87+%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AA%D8%B3%D8%AA%D8%B1%D9%8A.pdf

 

Scroll to page 70 and read it yourself.

 

Note two things:

 

1. You only quoted the beginning portion of the hadith, and not in its context either. A man from the Mukhalifin asks Imam Al-Sadiq (as) about Abu Bakr and Umar (in front of a crowd as well) and he says what you quoted (Original Arabic says "Huma Imaman Adilan Qasitan Ala Al-Haq" (They are the two just and fair (qasit) imams and upon truth).

 

2. After the crowd disperses as the Hadith says a man from his close companions says he's amazed at this statement and the Imam explains what he meant, starting off explaining that they are the two Imams of the people of hell-fire (Huma Imaman Ahlu-Nar). Then he explains the words he used in front of the crowd using the Qur'an were him stating their lowly status in hell-fire, not high status among men.

 

So the short passage at the beginning is all you quoted but everything afterwards which shows what he really meant and him saying that they are the Imams of hell you didn't quote.

 

 

As for the two books you asked me about, I haven't done enough research into Tarikh Yaqubi to say my stance on it, however Sharh Ibn Abil-Hadid I don't accept as a valid source on the Sharh of Nahjul-Balagha because the author was a Mutazili Sunni.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


>>>The third hadith is in Kashf-ul-Ghummah but not in Bihar-ul-Anwar, but it is a Sunni hadith, as is a lot of hadiths in Kashf-ul-Ghummah. Simply being in this book does not prove anything, and there is no effect for Shias from what is in that book.<<<

 

why are sunni hadiths in this books ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...