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In the Name of God بسم الله

To Sunnis: Answer About Your Religion Base

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  • Advanced Member

(bismillah)

 

This is something about ORIGIN of Sunnis and Shiites:

 

All Muslims believe that GOD is the guider of humans and we need to get our program schedule from GOD.

 

But 99.9999% of humans do not have direct connection with GOD.

 

So, God sent Prophets to Guide them on be half of him (GOD).

 

All Muslims accept the Mohammad (pbuh) is the Last prophet from God.

He left Quran between the Muslims as a GUIDE book to find out what God wanted from humans.

 

But, to get all the DETAILS of GOD orders, Quran is not enough. Quran is the Guidance book but with its special language. It has around 500 Ahkam ayas and many Ayas about heaven and hell and...

 

But there are so many things which Quran is empty from them, For Example: The way to Pray.

How to pray in the morning, in the noon ... ? How many Rakaats in Salat? 

How exactly to make Ghosl ?

 

Both Shiites and Sunnis refer to Mohammad  (pbuh)  as the Describer of God orders. 

 

>

 

So, our duty is to reach the Exact and Real words of Prophet (pbuh)  as a Guider from God. 

We name the Words  :   HADITH

 

>

 

One of the Big issues in Shiat and Sonat is to determine the True Hadith from Fictitious Hadith.

 

>

 

The specialists have their own ways to understand if A Hadith is True or Not,

1. They review the Tellers of each Hadith

If all the Tellers are Good people about Telling the Hadith they will accept the Hadith.

2. ....

3. ....

 

 

 

What happened , after Death of Mohamad (pbuh) ?

 

Caliphs (Abubakr, Omar Ibn Khatab, Othman, Mo'avia) announced that:

 

WRITING THE AHADITH IS FORBIDDEN. Quran is enough for us!

This was due to avoid TAHRIF Al Quran as they say.

 

A period (around 100 Years) Writing the hadith was FORBIDDEN.

>

People who heared the Sentences of Rasoolollah (pbuh)  started to Die, to Forget. Many of written Sentences have destroyed and burned by Colapha.

No one allowed to write.

 

Results After this 100 Years :

1. Every one forgot the Prophet (pbuh)  words

2. New generation didn't have enough info about Prophet (pbuh) words.

3. Fake and fictitious words came to the mouth one by one.

4. ...

 

After this 100 BLACK DIRTY YEARS, new Caliph Omar Ibne Abdol Aziz  braked this rule. Everyone started to write Ahadith. Everything they Heard from Every one.

Hundred Thousands of Ahadith have been written.

 

FYI: Bokhari collected a few of these Ahadith in his Book because there were a lot of FAKE Hadithes.

 

 

RESULT:

More than 95% of AHADITH HAVE BEEN DESTROYED and what we have now is just some ORAL words through this 100 Years including Fake Ahadith.

 

Islam just have Quran which is really from God and we accept it (WITHOUT ANY DOUBT). It has all the God's words without any TAHRIF.

But, it is a Book and doesn't contain all Details. 1 Book and a few accepted Ahadith "Originaly" from Prophet (pbuh) is not enough.

 

So, this Religion (Islam) BASED on imprecise documents.

So, Islam is not a good religion at all. Because it doesn't guide us directly to God orders. Like Jewish and Christianity.

 

Dear Sunnis, Please tell us how we can reach to God orders?

 

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First of all we need to ask ourselves why a ban was put in place on the mention and collection of Hadiths straight after the Prophet's (pbuh) death??? Everything that is associated and connected to the Prophet (pbuh) is important. Hadiths are part of the Sunnath, so why was such a ridiculous thing, as a ban, been put in place in the first place and not by others or the opposition but by companions of the Prophet (pbuh)??? How strange!!!

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What I mean is why Sunnis are Sunnis ?

They claim they are following the Sunnat of Rasolollah (pbuh)

 

But HOW ?

 

Quran has few Sunnats... so they HAVE TO get the Sunnat from the Hadith.

 

The Hadith narration and WRITING has been denied by Caliphs during 100 Years. 100 DIRTY Years for AHADITH !!! It is enough to DESTROY EVERY THING. 

And they DID.

 

These are 2 opposite things. This is impossible to BE SUNNI and to FOLLOW THE Advanced CALIPHS WAY.

Some one give us an answer... :mad:

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But, to get all the DETAILS of GOD orders, Quran is not enough. Quran is the Guidance book but with its special language. It has around 500 Ahkam ayas and many Ayas about heaven and hell and...

 

 

what does this ayah means?

 

"And We have revealed the Book to you which has clear explanation of everything, and a guidance, mercy and good news for those who submit." (Qur'an 16:89)

 

 

But there are so many things which Quran is empty from them, For Example: The way to Pray.

How to pray in the morning, in the noon ... ? How many Rakaats in Salat? 

How exactly to make Ghosl ?

 

Is that so? Why didnt the Holy prophet compile a book for these issues when he was alive? He compiled the Quran with the help of the sahabas. Why didnt he address these issues?

 

 

 

 

 

The specialists have their own ways to understand if A Hadith is True or Not,

1. They review the Tellers of each Hadith

If all the Tellers are Good people about Telling the Hadith they will accept the Hadith.

2. ....

3. ....

 

 

 

All those hadith which contradict the rulings of Quran are to be thrown away immediately.

 

 

What happened , after Death of Mohamad (pbuh) ?

 

 

Everything was fine. Caliph Abu Bakr [ra] took incharge & ruled for a short period of time. He was strict. No conspiracy against the muslims went successful. 

 

Than Caliph Umar [ra] came & Islam became stronger & expanded at a great speed. No one took the courage to provoke a war between the muslims.  

 

Than came Usman [ra] The first half of his reign is said to be peaceful. However as the enemies of Islam grew in number Islam the caliphate started losing control & as a result Usman got killed.

 

At the time Ali[ra] took hold of the khilafa the culprits got so organized & strong that he was not able to eliminate the conspiracies & got killed too by the khawarjis who were once in his camp. His reign lasted only 4 years i guess.

 

 

Muawiya [ra] came into power & dealt with the khawarjis in such a way that civil war ended & peace was established.  The tenure of his khilafah was the longest i.e 20 years.  Everything was cool as a cucumber! 

 

 

Caliphs (Abubakr, Omar Ibn Khatab, Othman, Mo'avia) announced that:

 

WRITING THE AHADITH IS FORBIDDEN. Quran is enough for us!

This was due to avoid TAHRIF Al Quran as they say.

 

 

What did caliph Ali [ra] didnt lift the ban?

 

A period (around 100 Years) Writing the hadith was FORBIDDEN.

>

People who heared the Sentences of Rasoolollah (pbuh)  started to Die, to Forget. Many of written Sentences have destroyed and burned by Colapha.

No one allowed to write.

 

Results After this 100 Years :

1. Every one forgot the Prophet (pbuh)  words

2. New generation didn't have enough info about Prophet (pbuh) words.

3. Fake and fictitious words came to the mouth one by one.

4. ...

 

After this 100 BLACK DIRTY YEARS, new Caliph Omar Ibne Abdol Aziz  braked this rule. Everyone started to write Ahadith. Everything they Heard from Every one.

Hundred Thousands of Ahadith have been written.

 

 

Who told u that?

 

 

FYI: Bokhari collected a few of these Ahadith in his Book because there were a lot of FAKE Hadithes.

 

 

for the sake of our information can u tell us how many hadith did kulayni collect & how many did he include in Al Kafi?

 

 

 

Dear Sunnis, Please tell us how we can reach to God orders?

 

 

God has described His orders in Quran. Why dont u buy a copy or download it on ur device & read & understand a few verses daily? 

 

Edited by Invoker
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  • Advanced Member

The moderators and their side kicks, it doesn't matter whether it is the Haq Char Yaar forum or the Twelver Shia.net forum, I have asked them which Sunni are you and why??? They are just too hesitant or afraid or shy or scared to answer. They just don't have the ability to declare and introduce them selves that, this is who, why and what we are. Discussing and debating their Fiqh, Sect and or Aqeedah is absolutely out of the question, never mind about promoting their base of religion. Slander and attack Shiaism and the Shias, looking for loop holes, loose and weak ends is what they live and survive on. That's just about it. That's their story. They have a very short beginning and an extremely quick end. They are making a lot of challenges to the moderators of Shia chat and members of this forum to come and debate with them. I accepted their challenge but they seem to think that I may not be qualified or what they are looking for. LOL! I don't exactly know what they are looking for. But one thing is for sure that they yap on a lot about Taqeya and that is what they do full time themselves. Which Sunni are you and why???? This one simple question knocks them out so cold. They can't move forward from here. Their gear is stuck.

Edited by Ameen
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Why didn't caliphs Ali and Hasan write ahadith down ?

 

Dear Brother,

they started, but Imam Ali, Imam Hasan (as) both were too busy in their government time to Fight with mutinies. But they did as much as possible. Of course they wrote so many things and they controlled Quran from any Tahrif   BUT

The Problem is that After Imam Ali, Imam Hasan (as)  Moavia (la) got the Caliphate and he destroyed every thing he could. and he continued the Past Caliphates way (Abubakr, Omar, Othman) inorder to burn every thing except Quran. He even paid people to dream up Ahadith. This is proved in History - 100%.

People were Cursing Ami Al Momenin Ali (as) in their Prayers  BECAUSE OF SAME ISSUE.

But Moavia had a difference with past Caliphs, he was Destroying Islam base outright, with no hesitate to kill people and to burn houses.

And Yazid was even worth than him.

 

Trust me, from all the Profit words nothing remained.

 

---------

 

 

Don't see Shiits Ahadith from Rasolollah (pbuh)  we got 95% of Nabavi Ahadith from our Imams. This is our difference with Sunnies.

 

We have some Hadithes from Imam Sadegh (as) , he says: Rasolollah (pbuh) told Imam Ali (as) , Imam Ali told Imam Hussain (as)  Imam Hussain told Imam Ali Ibn Hussain (as)  He said to my Father Mohammad Ibn Ali (as)  and my father told me...

 

And we accept.

 

THE GOLD DIFFERENCE:

We have so many Hadith which Imam Sadegh (as)  says: "I am telling from Rasolollah (pbuh) "  without telling the Narrators between him and Rasolollah (pbuh) > we accept the Hadith but Sunnies deny it as a "Morsal" hadith.

 

Even if Imam Sadegh (as)  says, I am telling this from my self, we accept it because he is talking from Rasolollah (pbuh)  from Allah جل جلاله.

 

This is our difference with Sunnies,

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If people are missing one point then let me remind again. Hazrat Imam Mehdi (as) is alive one of the Ahlul Bait (as).. and also Hazrat Khidr (as). So consider these points too while Discussion.

 

Also for Ahle Tashio , If you respect Rahbar-e-Moazaam then read his recent Announcement or you can say Fatwa .. " Any one if provoke fight in between Shia and Sunni is neither Shia nor Sunni .. But culprit of Anti Islam , You can not curse Muqaddasaat of Ahle Sunnat " ..

 

Now discuss .......

Edited by alirex
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  • 2 weeks later...
  • Advanced Member

Do we have any record of any hadoth compilations from the time of Imam Ali and Hasan ? did the subsequent generations of Hasani or hussaini imams preserve them ?

 

Did even jafar as sadiq or Baqir write down hadith ?

 

Dear Panzerwaffe,

Sorry for late respond.

Writing down the Ahadith by 1 or 2 persons can not do anything. We are talking about a Society which : WRITING AHADITH was a FORBIDDEN job.

All Sunnis, including: Shafe'e, Hanafi, Maleki,... know that this 100 Years is a shame for their Khalifs because they DENIED the BIGGEST GUIDES from future people: " RASOOLOLLAH (pbuh) Words "

You heared this Hadith from رسول الله (pbuh) :

«من حفظ على أمّتي أربعين حديثا من أمر دينها بعثه اللّه يوم القيامة في زمرة الفقهاء و العلماء» و «قيّدوا العلم‏ بالكتابة» و ما شابه ذلك. كما في البخاري (ج 1 ص 30) و سنن الترمذي (ج 5 ص 34) و مسند احمد (ج 2 ص 207) و سنن الدارمي (ج 1 ص 125) و سنن أبي داود (ج 3 ص 318) و بحار الأنوار (ج 2 ص 145).

"If someone keep and memorize 40 Hadith from Islam God will join him with Foghaha and Olama in the other day"

 

So, what Khalifs did was 100% Against Prophet (pbuh) .

 

 

Maybe Imams tried to do something for writing down the Ahadith but They didn't have time for this

Imam Ali (as) was Khalif for 4.5 Years and most of it in Wars or Contention.

Imam Hasan (as) Khalif time was few days... Moavia got the place and he completed all the incomplete jobs from Omar.

 

Imam Ali (as) tried to change the Society believes about writing but Ibne Moljam killed him and bereaved the people from Ali (as) efforts.

 

 

Imam Bagher and Imam Sadegh (as) started the Job. They had so many

If people are missing one point then let me remind again. Hazrat Imam Mehdi (as) is alive one of the Ahlul Bait (as).. and also Hazrat Khidr (as). So consider these points too while Discussion.

 

Also for Ahle Tashio , If you respect Rahbar-e-Moazaam then read his recent Announcement or you can say Fatwa .. " Any one if provoke fight in between Shia and Sunni is neither Shia nor Sunni .. But culprit of Anti Islam , You can not curse Muqaddasaat of Ahle Sunnat " ..

 

Now discuss .......

 

Ok, I do follow Rahbari Hafazhollah.

But what is exactly the relationship between a Scientific thread with cursing...?!

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Aahl albayat as allowed the collection of hadith. The role for collection of hadith of each Imam including Imam Ali as, his sons and imams coming afterwards can be found at the given link:

 

http://www.al-islam.org/prohibition-recording-hadith-sayyid-ali-al-shahristani/establishment-two-trends-during-umayyad-reign#ahl-al-bayt-and-recordation-hadith

 

Also the history of collection of both Sunnis and Shias can be found at this link:

 

http://www.al-islam.org/articles/al-hadith-analysis-and-overview-hashim-md#collection-hadith-sunni

 

 

Regards.

Edited by skamran110
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  • 3 weeks later...
  • Advanced Member

hadhrat uthman wrote the quran so how come shias believe in the quran?

 

He didn't write the Quran, he burned the Qurans and allowed just 1 publish to be distributed.

This is a better sentence.

 

We believe in Quran and we prove Quran is ANTI MANIPULATION. The same Quran is publishing in Saudi or Iraq or Iran or Lebanon.

 

You can simply search Shia believes about Quran.

 

 

@sufi1- well thats a complicated one.

According to their tafsirs, Quran underwent tahreed and Ali only had the real Quran. Most usooli shia say only the order of narration was changed. Akhbaris say Uthman left whole portions out.

 

99% of Shees Olama say that Quran doesn't have any Tahreef.  Is this 99% enough or you need 100% just? 

 

What we say is that: Imam Ali (Raziallah Anho) wrote a Tafsir and the tafsir is not in our hands now. Quran is the same.

 

1 example:

یا أَیهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَیکَ مِنْ رَبِّکَ وَإِنْ لَمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ وَاللَّهُ یعْصِمُکَ مِنَ النَّاسِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا یهْدِی الْقَوْمَ الْکَافِرِینَ(المائده/۶۷)

O messenger, deliver what was sent down to you from your Lord, and if you do not then you have not delivered His message; and God will protect you from the people. God does not guide the disbelieving people.) 76 (

-------------------

in Ibn Abi Hatam Tafsir, Dorolmanthor, Alkashf Zamakhshari , ..... from Sunnies tafassir, they say:

O messenger, deliver what was sent down ABOUT ALI to you from your Lord....

یا أیها الرسول بلغ ما أنزل إلیک من ربک ”  فی علی بن أبی طالب”.

 

Is this a Tahrif? As Sunnies say so...  Or it is a Taffsir???!!

 

Imam Ali's (ra) Quran included the Tafassir and descriptions of Quran versus.

 

Same like Hazrat Ali (as) send his Sons to protect Usman.

 

OFF TOPIC

 

Proof? ^

 

GO SEARCH , you will find my brother.

 

Probably taqiyyah will be an answer. It always works,

 

Not Always bro.

Lets answer my question.

Your religion is under question mark...???

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Do we have any record of any hadoth compilations from the time of Imam Ali and Hasan ? did the subsequent generations of Hasani or hussaini imams preserve them ?

 

Did even jafar as sadiq or Baqir write down hadith ?

Many students of Jafar ibn Muhammad did it. For example Abu Hanifah and Malik did it !

Moreover, Imam itself is the interpretation of Quran and hadith of Muhammad !!

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Dear Brother,

they started, but Imam Ali, Imam Hasan (as) both were too busy in their government time to Fight with mutinies. But they did as much as possible. Of course they wrote so many things and they controlled Quran from any Tahrif BUT

The Problem is that After Imam Ali, Imam Hasan (as) Moavia (la) got the Caliphate and he destroyed every thing he could. and he continued the Past Caliphates way (Abubakr, Omar, Othman) inorder to burn every thing except Quran. He even paid people to dream up Ahadith. This is proved in History - 100%.

People were Cursing Ami Al Momenin Ali (as) in their Prayers BECAUSE OF SAME ISSUE.

But Moavia had a difference with past Caliphs, he was Destroying Islam base outright, with no hesitate to kill people and to burn houses.

And Yazid was even worth than him.

Trust me, from all the Profit words nothing remained.

---------

Don't see Shiits Ahadith from Rasolollah (pbuh) we got 95% of Nabavi Ahadith from our Imams. This is our difference with Sunnies.

We have some Hadithes from Imam Sadegh (as) , he says: Rasolollah (pbuh) told Imam Ali (as) , Imam Ali told Imam Hussain (as) Imam Hussain told Imam Ali Ibn Hussain (as) He said to my Father Mohammad Ibn Ali (as) and my father told me...

And we accept.

THE GOLD DIFFERENCE:

We have so many Hadith which Imam Sadegh (as) says: "I am telling from Rasolollah (pbuh) " without telling the Narrators between him and Rasolollah (pbuh) > we accept the Hadith but Sunnies deny it as a "Morsal" hadith.

Even if Imam Sadegh (as) says, I am telling this from my self, we accept it because he is talking from Rasolollah (pbuh) from Allah جل جلاله.

This is our difference with Sunnies,

One of rediculous point I ever read, in other words you r saying every one of ur imam failed to save his govt nd even preserve the Quran; because Quran which sunni hve tidat is not the one which has been preserved by ur imam

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Yes I know that disciples of Sadiq and Baqir ale Salam were very active and most Imami hadith date from that period bit it's inconceivable that earlier imams left no disciples

Esp since companions of Ali and Hasan are important hadith narraters even in Sunni ahadith

Salam Mohammed Hanif

This does not add up if the earlier caliphs prohibited hadith and the later ummayyads circulated false ahadith so were not the earlier caliphs right ?

On one hand you say that Ali did not even have handful of disciples and the earlier caliphs had hundreds of disciples that is how umar beat Fatima and gets away with it ( allegedly) so if hadith writing were allowed by earlier caliphs then antiAli hadoth would definitely predominate as caliphs had so many supporters and Ali had so few

So what did the Caliphs gain from prohibiting hadith writing?

Edited by Panzerwaffe
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  • Advanced Member

Dear Shikran

Salam Aleykom

How did you reach to this point from my words????!!!!

 

The Quran we have is the God words, not 1 character more, not less. We prove this from various ways.

One of the ways is our Imam's confirmation on current Quran. and other ways....

 

 

 

Dear Panzerwaffe,

Salam Aleykom

 

The First one who denied narrating hadith was Umar r.a

The First one who falsificated (false editing = TAHRIF) a hadith after Rasolalah (pbuh) was Abubakr r.a

And the Hadith was about denying inheritance for a Prophet!   Which is against Quran and our Sunnat.

ُِسنن ابی داوود  - --   صحیح مسلم ---  کتب التاریخ و ...

 

2968 - حدثنا يزيد بن خالد بن عبد الله بن موهب الهمداني ثنا الليث بن سعد عن عقيل بن خالد عن ابن شهاب عن عروة بن الزبير عن عائشة زوج النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم أنها أخبرته
 : أن فاطمة بنت رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم أرسلت إلى أبي بكر الصديق رضي الله عنه تسأله ميراثها من رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم مما أفاء الله عليه بالمدينة وفدك وما بقي من خمس خيبر فقال أبو بكر إن رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم قال " لانورث ما تركنا صدقة إنما يأكل آل محمد من هذا المال " وإني والله لا أغير شيئا من صدقة رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم عن حالها التي كانت عليه في عهد رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم فلأعملن فيها بما عمل به رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم فأبى أبو بكر رضي الله عنه أن يدفع إلى فاطمة [ عليهما السلام ] منها شيئا .
قال الشيخ الألباني : صحيح

 

Denying the narration was a way to hide the truth, to change the religion and to import self ideas. By Umar r.a   and support of Abubakr r.a

 

So the earlier caliphes had enough space to do every thing. It was a good way to manipulate the religion inorder to control the society as they wish.

 

anything I missed?

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This is a good challenge that Sunni brothers have to answer. but a remained point is that even our Imams like Imam Ali (a.s) collected the Ahadiths that narrated from Rasullolah (s.a). for example the Book of Imam `Ali was so comprehensive that its contents cannot be dedicated to questions of the religious laws of inheritance and judicature since the Holy Imams have referred to this book during discussing all the life affairs as well as the various fields of the Muslim jurisprudence.

Also It has been uninterruptedly narrated that the Ahl al-Bayt allowed the recordation of the Hadith. Imam `Ali ibn Abi-Talib recorded the seventy-cubit book of al-Jami`ah, which included the dictations of the Holy Prophet and has been reported in the narrations of the Holy Imams.

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i'm sunni

 

what are u talking about? how you can reach the word of Allah? the quran of course!! is that not enough for shia? well I haerd that you think there are 2 other qurans written by ahl el bayt...

 

if you think we treat the hadith as holy you are wrong. i don't understand the negative fixation on hadith and on bukhari and muslim as scolars. 

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i'm sunni

 

what are u talking about? how you can reach the word of Allah? the quran of course!! is that not enough for shia? well I haerd that you think there are 2 other qurans written by ahl el bayt...

 

if you think we treat the hadith as holy you are wrong. i don't understand the negative fixation on hadith and on bukhari and muslim as scolars. 

 

Dear Brother,

Salam Aleykom

 

Quran is God's word. No Doubt.

I am asking clearly: IS QURAN ENOUGH to be GUIDED ? To reach to all Ahkams?

Every sane will say: NO.

 

What do you say on this?>

 

------------------

2. Your hearings about shia believes in several Qurans are WRONG.

Shia Says we have JUST 1 Quran. Which is the same with the Quran in our hands.

 

Maybe there are 2 points:

2-1) The descent order of Ayas are different with the current Quran.   Which is 100% True. No doubt.

2-2) There was a Quran wrote by Imam Ali Raziallah Anh which INCLUDED  Tafsir.  Which we don't have it now.  It is not a second Quran. It is a TAFSIR.    not another Quran. OK?

----------------

3. Did I say "your scholars all cheated the Ahadith?>>>>???"!!!!????!!!

I am asking this:

What happened to Ahadith in the BLACK 100 FORBIDDEN Years of narration and writing????!!! :excl:

 

---------------

Hope to hear from you again!!!!

Edited by Mohamad Hanif
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