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In the Name of God بسم الله

The Virgin Birth

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What a fun and messy topic! I made a new discussion because this thread went off topic: What Did Jesus Say on The Cross

The virgin birth story is accepted by Christians and Muslims alike. So I'd like to raise some points.

I absolutely reject the idea of a virgin birth. For one, why would the Creator, who is Just, break his own Law? (Natural law states that 1 man + 1 woman = babies). Secondly, if he had no legal bloodline to trace back to David, how could Jesus possibly be the Messiah? He couldn't be. Thirdly, and perhaps most blasphemous, if Mary were betrothed to Joseph (who the NT describes as righteous), it would be adulterous if God caused her impregnation without the knowledge or consent of Joseph. I personally hold the belief that Joseph was the actual father.

In the previous thread we were examining the Gospel of Matthews claim. One important thing to remember about Matthews account was his style. His record at times reads very much like the Midrash. It's metaphorical and there's heavy use of parables. There are four "levels" of exegesis in Judaism. It's summed up using the acronym "PaRDeS", which stands for Pashat/פשט (the simple, literal meaning of the text), Remez/רמז ("hints" and the deeper meaning beyond just the literal sense), Derash/דרש (related to the word "darash" meaning "inquire"--finding comparative meaning through similar occurances), and Sod/סוד (esoteric/mystical stuff). Each of these interpretations examine the extended meaning of a text.

As a general rule of thumb, the extended interpretations can NEVER contradict the simple meaning.

With all that being said, Matthew writes that Jesus "fulfilled" the prophecy (Matthew 1:22-23). But, according to Isaiah, this prophecy was a sign to Ahaz!

And the Lord continued to speak to Ahaz, saying, "Ask for yourself a sign from the Lord, your God: ask it either in the depths, or in the heights above." And Ahaz said, "I will not ask, and I will not test the Lord." And he said, "Listen now, O House of David, is it little for you to weary men, that you weary my God as well?" Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel. Cream and honey he shall eat when he knows to reject bad and choose good. For, when the lad does not yet know to reject bad and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread, shall be abandoned." (Isaiah 7:10-16)

Salamtek raised a point in the other thread. He noted that the great Jewish commentator Rashi wrote that this prophecy couldn't be about Hezekiah the son of Ahaz. So, Salamtek, you are right that Rashi associates this prophecy with a messiah. BUT, in Rashi's commentary of Isaiah, he writes in regard to the young woman and the word "Immanuel":

"That is to say that our Rock shall be with us, and this is the sign, for she is a young girl, and she never prophesied, yet in this instance, Divine inspiration shall rest upon her. This is what is stated below (8:3): “And I was intimate with the prophetess, etc.,” and we do not find a prophet’s wife called a prophetess unless she prophesied. Some interpret this as being said about Hezekiah, but it is impossible, because, when you count his years, you find that Hezekiah was born nine years before his father’s reign. And some interpret that this is the sign, that she was a young girl and incapable of giving birth."

The Jewish authorities agree that this sign is fulfilled in Isaiah 8:

And I was intimate with the prophetess, and she conceived, and she bore a son, and the Lord said to me, "Call his name Maher-shalal-hash-baz. For, when the lad does not yet know to call, 'Father' and 'mother,' the wealth of Damascus and the plunder of Samaria shall be carried off before the king of Assyria." (Isaiah 8:3-4)

Rashi, in his commentary writes: "He is the very son whom the prophetess called Immanuel, since the Holy One, blessed be He, would be at the aid of Hezekiah when he would reign. [it is impossible to say that it was another son, for we learned [in Seder Olam ch. 22] that in the fourth year of Ahaz, this prophecy was said, and in the fourth year of Ahaz, Pekah was assassinated, and it is impossible for two children to be born in one year, one after the other.] And Isaiah his father called him Maher- shalal-hash-baz, because of the calamity destined to befall Rezin and the son of Remaliah, who were coming to wrest the kingdom from the House of David and to curtail the kingdom of Hezekiah."

So here's what we are left with. If Matthew did believe that this was a virgin birth, then we have TWO virgin births recorded.

I meant for this post to be longer, but I accidently submitted it :lol: I guess this is a good start for a discussion.

Salam and Shalom

Edited by Netzari
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What a fun and messy topic! I made a new discussion because this thread went off topic: What Did Jesus Say on The Cross

The virgin birth story is accepted by Christians and Muslims alike. So I'd like to raise some points.

I absolutely reject the idea of a virgin birth. For one, why would the Creator, who is Just, break his own Law? (Natural law states that 1 man + 1 woman = babies). Secondly, if he had no legal bloodline to trace back to David, how could Jesus possibly be the Messiah? He couldn't be. Thirdly, and perhaps most blasphemous, if Mary were betrothed to Joseph (who the NT describes as righteous), it would be adulterous if God caused her impregnation without the knowledge or consent of Joseph. I personally hold the belief that Joseph was the actual father.

 

Salam. First off I would like to say is I apologize for not reading your whole post. I have an issue with a point you raise in your first paragraph. I would like to dissect and refute that, from a Shia Imami Islamic perspective. You claim that Jesus A.S must come through a father because it is by "natural law". What is natural law? Where dd it come from? Who created it? Your false assumption is that God is separate from this "natural law", when in fact it was God who created it. If God can create such laws, does that not imply God is absolute? If God is absolute, can it not imply, God can give existence of a son without a father? I believe you are falsely assuming God is confined by laws. God is not confined, for He commands His creations. Where did God say He must create beings by a father and mother? What about that of Adam A.S? I dont know if jews believe in Adam and Eve, but clearly, both had no father OR mother, so which natural law did they break? Do you not also believe Moses A.S to have done miracles? Did those not break "natural laws"? If so, how was that possible? If your answer is God, then there you have it, because Muslim's believe God willed Mary A.S to have a child through a thing called a miracle. Miracles in Islam are not infact going against the laws of the world that God has given us. It is an extension of those laws, that we as unworthy beings cannot see all most at all times. They are metaphysical and possible. Science cannot prove something is impossible, it can only examine. Now I agree with a few things. In Islam, All prophets of God come from one holy line. Jesus A.S was related to Moses A.S and Muhammad A.S was related to both, and same goes for David A.S and all the other Islamic Prophets. Islam vociferously rejects and condemns this notion that Mary A.S, one of the mothers of paradise, the most highest dignity and morality, was engaged to any, no, it cannot be. Or more simpally, in Islam Mary A.S never married anyone, for that would give an excuse to accuse Mary A.S of wrong doing and possible blur the known miracle of Jesus A.S

 

(wasalam)

Edited by PureEthics
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I believe that haShem keeps the Laws that he creates. So while the creation of Adam and Eve are "miracles", his first command to mankind was "be fruitful and multiply". No other men were created from dirt, the rest follow the natural law (man + woman = baby). The reason he keeps (but is not bound by) his own law is because he is the most righteous Judge! What judge violates his own commandments, even though he has the power to do so?

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I believe that haShem keeps the Laws that he creates.

 

Who is haShem?

 

If you mean God, the fact is that He does not follow any laws - absolutely NONE whatsoever.

 

He has created them not for Himself to abide by but for the smooth running of the universe.

 

They are not for Him to follow.

 

And there is no reason, why He should not create situations that seem to go against those laws. 

 

For example, 

  • The parting of the waters by Moses, 
  • Moses' staff swallowing up the magician's "snakes",   and
  • The Virgin Birth.
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I believe that haShem keeps the Laws that he creates. So while the creation of Adam and Eve are "miracles", his first command to mankind was "be fruitful and multiply". No other men were created from dirt, the rest follow the natural law (man + woman = baby). The reason he keeps (but is not bound by) his own law is because he is the most righteous Judge! What judge violates his own commandments, even though he has the power to do so?

 

Brother again, you have to realize you are falsely assuming God is confined by His own law. If that is the case, then God is not absolute. God cannot be confined by His own laws. If you believe God to not be absolute, then I rest my case because that is much worse and a nullifying factor. Also, God bringing the existence of Jesus A.S without a father does not contradict or go against His law. You have to note here, that this is only from your perspective you are arguing against Muslims and Christians. Which is a baseless argument. In Islam, there is no law that a baby must be coming through a mother and father, because it is unbounded as long as it is a pure relationship between man and female. If Mary A.S, through divine will of God, has a child without a man, it isnt breaking any law, because God willed it. The command upon man is separate from God's decree, because it is God's decree that derives these commands. You have also just agreed to a contradiction. Does God not know His own law? If God knows His law, then how come God did not obey it when He created Adam and Eve A.S. Besides, you yourself have stated the command was to mankind not on how God wishes to bring about existence. You just said God is not bounded by any law but then conclude God is not righteous if He breaks a law, which is commanded on man and not Himself. That doesnt make any sense brother, another contradiction.

 

(wasalam)

Edited by PureEthics
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Wow, thanks for the responses! PureEthics and baqar, clearly God is absolute. Why can't he voluntarily follow the laws he created? How does that "subjugate" him? How does it make him not absolute? And if God decides to partake in worldly affairs, wouldn't he want to work within the parameters that He Himself created?

Secondly, Isa is described as Messiah in the Qur'an. I'm unsure about the Islamic concept of messiah, but if its similar to the Jewish and Christian understanding, then doesn't being born of a virgin remove him from contention?

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Wow, thanks for the responses! PureEthics and baqar, clearly God is absolute. Why can't he voluntarily follow the laws he created? How does that "subjugate" him? How does it make him not absolute? And if God decides to partake in worldly affairs, wouldn't he want to work within the parameters that He Himself created?

Secondly, Isa is described as Messiah in the Qur'an. I'm unsure about the Islamic concept of messiah, but if its similar to the Jewish and Christian understanding, then doesn't being born of a virgin remove him from contention?

 

You are very welcome dear brother. I appreciate your responses and bearing with me. :)

 

Again, because it fundamentally lies that if God subjects Himself to laws, it is implied God is not absolute. This voids the notion of being absolute. It also brings about the connotation that God is not All Guiding or All Just because Him subjecting Himself to laws means, He is holding Himself accountable to misguiding or being unjust. This in itself is a proof against the notion of God. God is all knowing and He is the best of Planners. He does what He wills, and His will is the absolute will. I am sorry, but I dont understand what you mean by God decides to partake in worldly affairs? Are you saying God is human? He is subject to desires and trials? That again, contradicts the notion of an almighty god. You could say Jesus A.S was the messiah of the Jewish and Christian people of the time, but being the savior of mankind is not necessarily a concept in Islam, if I understand correctly. We believe in Imam Mahdi A.S, who is kind of like a Messiah, except He has existed since the departure of the 11 Imam of the Shias, and is the successor to Muhammad A.S. (not as a prophet but as an Imam) and by God's command he will bring peace and justice upon mankind, once and for all. None the less, how does Jesus A.S being born a virgin negate his prophethood, for example?

 

(wasalam)

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Wow, thanks for the responses! PureEthics and baqar, clearly God is absolute. Why can't he voluntarily follow the laws he created? How does that "subjugate" him? How does it make him not absolute? 

 

Hi Netzari

 

I think you are responding to two people together, which makes it complicated. You mentioned my name but you did not address the points I had raised.

 

And if God decides to partake in worldly affairs, wouldn't he want to work within the parameters that He Himself created?

 

In other words, He should not allow miracles?

 

Do you believe He allowed the parting of the waters by Moses? 

 

Secondly, Isa is described as Messiah in the Qur'an. I'm unsure about the Islamic concept of messiah, but if its similar to the Jewish and Christian understanding, then doesn't being born of a virgin remove him from contention?

 

It is not the same as the Christian concept.

In any case, I don't see how his being born without a father would disqualify him from his being the Messiah.  

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The virgin birth story is accepted by Christians and Muslims alike. So I'd like to raise some points.

 

 

 

Ascension and return of Jesus and Birth of Jesus with out human father are doctrines of Pauline Christians that are infused in Islam. 

 

 
He created man from a sperm-drop; then at once, he is a clear adversary. 16:4
 
 
We know all verses of Sura Mariam very well. No any verse of Quran says, that Jesus was born with out human father. Ascension and Return of Eisa PBUH & his birth with out human father are ESSENTIALLY manufactured evil Doctrines of Pauline Pagan Christians that they imported from Pagan-Cult Mithraism and later crusaders missionaries blended these 2 fictions in hadith books during Abbasid Period from 750-1258 AD.
 
 
Mullahs and Imams (blank in history) are busy from 1200 years to twist many many verses of Quran in order to reconcile the Quranic verses with fabricated hadiths. Not all but Majority of Mullahs and imams from past 1200 years commit heinous crime by changing the meaning of many verses and adding their own words in brackets in verses of Quran and for this Crime, hell is waiting for these hypocrite criminals. No any Crime is bigger than to twist book of Allah. Verses of Quran are so CLEAR AS SUN ON SKY, yet these Mullahs and imams twist verses of Sura Mariam and 4:157-159, 43:61, 3:55, 5:116-117, 3:144, 5:75 to support by hook or Crook the two false doctrines of Pauline-Pagan-Christians.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

 I personally hold the belief that Joseph was the actual father.

 

 

 

 

Indeed he was & thats the belief entire Jews hold as well.

 

Now no one says that Yahya and Ishaq were born with out human father; despite their cases are EXACTLY Same as of Mary and Jesus. What reasons were created for the birth of Yahya. His mother's womb was made fertile and his father was made potent even in old age and her wife became pregnant & Prophet Yahya was born.
 
 
Same case was with Prophet Ibrahim. He was old around 100 yrs age and her wife Saira at 90 years was a barren lady. When angel told Ibrahim that Allah will grant u a son from Saira. Saira listened and started to beat her face with both hands in surprise and said how can we have son in this age and in this condition. Angel said, Allah does as Allah wills. Again here  Allah Created Asbaab for birth of Ishaq as was in the case of birth of Yahya. Saira became pregnant from Ibrahim & Ishaq was born.
 
 
Edited by Invoker
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Hi Netzari

 

I have no intentions of wasting my time arguing with contrarian Muslim views. I have told you briefly what my views are but if you have specific questions of me, please address them to me so I can respond to you.

 

If not, I will leave you to the care of others and take my leave from this thread.  

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Ascension and return of Jesus and Birth of Jesus with out human father are doctrines of Pauline Christians that are infused in Islam. 

 

He created man from a sperm-drop; then at once, he is a clear adversary. 16:4
 
We know all verses of Sura Mariam very well. No any verse of Quran says, that Jesus was born with out human father. Ascension and Return of Eisa PBUH & his birth with out human father are ESSENTIALLY manufactured evil Doctrines of Pauline Pagan Christians that they imported from Pagan-Cult Mithraism and later crusaders missionaries blended these 2 fictions in hadith books during Abbasid Period from 750-1258 AD.

 

Are you being serious? Have you even read the quran? Are you a quranist? Hadiths are fundamental to the doctrine of Islam. You reject hadiths, Islam becomes unclear.

 

“And mention Mary in the book. When she withdrew to a place east of her family. She screened herself from them; then We sent to her Our angel, and he appeared to her as a man in all respects. She said:I seek refuge in God against you if you are righteous. He said:I am only a Messenger of Thy Lord to grant to you a pure boy. She said:How can I have a son, and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have I been unchaste? He said:So (it will be). Thy Lord says: It is easy for Me; and that We may make him a sign to men and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter decreed.’’ Then she conceived him; and withdrew with him to a remote place. And the throes of childbirth drove her to the trunk of the palm-tree. She said:Oh, would that I had died before this, and had been a thing quite forgotten. So a voice came to her from beneath her: Grieve not, surely thy Lord has provided a stream beneath thee. And shake towards thee the trunk of the palm-tree, it will drop on thee fresh ripe dates. So eat and drink and be pleased. Then if thou seest any human, say: “Surely I have vowed a fasting for the sake of the Beneficent, so I will not speak to any human today.” 19:16-26

 

“Then she came to her people with him, carrying him. They said:O Mary, thou hast indeed brought a strange thing. O sister of Aaron, thy father was not a wicked man, nor was thy mother an unchaste woman. But she pointed to him. They said: How should we speak to a one who is a child in the cradle? He said: I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me the Book and made me a prophet; and He has made me blessed wherever I may be, and He has enjoined on me prayer and purity so long as I live. And to be kind to my mother; and He has not made me insolent, un-blessed. And Peace be on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I am raised to life (in the Hereafter).” 19:27-33

 

Now I ask you, why does Allah address Isa A.S as the son of Mary A.S? Why mention Mary and not his father? Even so, why does Isa A.S not mention his father in the preceding verse? He says "To be kind to my mother", what about his father? Clearly, if he has a father he would have said parents!

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Are you being serious?

 

Yes, very!

 

 

Have you even read the quran?

 

 

Indeed i have! & i prefer Quran over every other thing. I am pretty happy with it. 

 

Are you a quranist?

 

All those who believe that Quran is a complete book are quranists. You probably are an insane minded guy who crams al-islam.org everyday & prescribes it to every other member on this site.

 

Hadiths are fundamental to the doctrine of Islam. You reject hadiths, Islam becomes unclear.

 

We reject hadith that refute the laws prescribed in the Quran. U need brains to see the true picture. Make sure u have one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“And mention Mary in the book. When she withdrew to a place east of her family. She screened herself from them; then We sent to her Our angel, and he appeared to her as a man in all respects. She said: ‘I seek refuge in God against you if you are righteous. He said: ‘I am only a Messenger of Thy Lord to grant to you a pure boy. She said: ‘How can I have a son, and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have I been unchaste? He said: ‘So (it will be). Thy Lord says: It is easy for Me; and that We may make him a sign to men and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter decreed.’’ Then she conceived him; and withdrew with him to a remote place. And the throes of childbirth drove her to the trunk of the palm-tree. She said: ‘Oh, would that I had died before this, and had been a thing quite forgotten. So a voice came to her from beneath her: Grieve not, surely thy Lord has provided a stream beneath thee. And shake towards thee the trunk of the palm-tree, it will drop on thee fresh ripe dates. So eat and drink and be pleased. Then if thou seest any human, say: “Surely I have vowed a fasting for the sake of the Beneficent, so I will not speak to any human today.” 19:16-26

 

 

 

 

 

Like i said u need brains to see the true picture.

 

U quoted verses 16 to 26.

 

Lets go back a little. 

 

I quote verses 7-15 of Surah Mariyam

 

O Zakariya! surely We give you good news of a boy whose name shall be Yahya: We have not made before anyone his equal.

 

He said: O my Lord! when shall I have a son, and my wife is barren, and I myself have reached indeed the extreme degree of old age? (Mariyam said she was never been touched by a male so how can i be pregnant) 

 

 

He said: So shall it be, your Lord says: It is easy to Me, and indeed I created you before, when you were nothing.

 

 

He said: My Lord! give me a sign. He said: Your sign is that you will not be able to speak to the people three nights while in sound health.

 

 

So he went forth to his people from his place of worship, then he made known to them that they should glorify (Allah) morning and evening.

 

 

O Yahya! take hold of the Book with strength, and We granted him wisdom while yet a child

 

 

 

And tenderness from Us and purity, and he was one who guarded (against evil),

 

 

 

And dutiful to his parents, and he was not insolent, disobedient.

 

 

And peace on him on the day he was born, and on the day he dies, and on the day he is raised to life   (If u have the gutts or even the brains, i challenge u to bring forward ur understanding of this verse)

 

 

In the next verses Allah mentions the case of  Mariam & Isa.

 

 

In the case of Zikriya her wife is infertile. Likewise in the case of Mariyam she has no husband.

 

So can we assume that Yahya as was born without a mother? :D 

 

Oh no! how can a child....... oops!  

 

 

 

I dont want anyone spreading falsehood :/

 

 

 

So tell me Mr Hadith Guy! Was Yahya also born without a mother or without a sperm drop as zikriya was too old?  :P

 

 

 

That is a good point but the falsehood is much too obvious. 

 

 

What if i told u that u can either debate face to face OR there is a seat over there for silent spectators?  

 

 

 

 

in any case, I am sure Netzari can see through it.  

 

 

 

Yes, We shall see that. 

Edited by Invoker
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No mr hadith guy u r actually too lazy to use ur mind (in case u have one) & than respond with a valid answer. Everyone here can judge ur intellect.

 

Since I am feeling quite generous today. I will put you on my ignore list as well. So I dont have to destroy my brain cells reading your senseless posts. Masalaama!

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So I dont have to destroy my brain 

 

 

Actually ur response show's that u dont have one. Or else u would have answered my question using logic & valid reasons. Instead u choose to run away  like all others. Netzari can see that very well. 

Edited by Invoker
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Dear friend Netzari

 

Salam and Shalom

 

Salam & Shalom to you too.  

 

I am sorry but I think your thread has been hijacked and murdered. Next time you want to introduce a discussion in a new thread, go to Google and look for the closest astrologer. Ask him for a good date and time to begin your discussion. The stars were not in your favour as far as this thread is concerned.  

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He can still save the thread, by  asking questions of a specific person.

 

That means he needs to address his questions by name. 

 

He may, of course,  ask his questions of several people, but one at a time, and each time by name.

 

That might allow some meaningful discussions to continue.

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Wow, thanks for the responses! PureEthics and baqar, clearly God is absolute. Why can't he voluntarily follow the laws he created? How does that "subjugate" him? How does it make him not absolute? And if God decides to partake in worldly affairs, wouldn't he want to work within the parameters that He Himself created?

Secondly, Isa is described as Messiah in the Qur'an. I'm unsure about the Islamic concept of messiah, but if its similar to the Jewish and Christian understanding, then doesn't being born of a virgin remove him from contention?

I don't understand what came after secondly.

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Allow me to use an example. Let's say a father decided to play "hide and seek" with his children. He teaches them how to play. "I'll hide, and you try to find me," he says. He cherishes the bonding time; likewise, the children are excited to play with their father. Now, is the father bound by any laws while playing this game? No. He could "hide" in his car and drive off. He could change the rules and say "you didn't find me because I wore a pink shirt." But, the father won't go to this extreme. He awkwardly hides behind a couch, and his kids easily find him. Why? Because the father loves his children. He doesn't change the rules on them in the middle of the game. Just because the father follows a few silly rules, doesn't mean that he isn't in absolute control of his house, does it?

Likewise, when the Creator does something miraculous, I don't think it means he works completely without regard to the natural order of things. So using your example Baqar--the splitting of the sea by Moses. It says in Exodus 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the Lord led the sea with the strong east wind all night, and He made the sea into dry land and the waters split. It says that haShem used a strong east wind to split it! While very miraculous, we know that wind does in fact move water. It's not that outside the natural order of things. Same thing as the miraculous birth of Isaac-it was a miracle that Abraham and Sarah could conceive in their old age, but there was still a sperm cell and an egg. The natural order wasn't disregarded. As with the snake/staff battle-I don't know how that works lol.

I liked Invokers post. He did raise an interesting point--only hadith explicitly refers to a virgin birth. I see wiggle room in Surah 19. Mary says no one touched her yet. The angel says "so it will be. Then, in the next two sentences, conceives and gives birth. These ayat seem to be telling a general story, couldn't we assume that she had relations with Joseph at some point? Why would a virgin birth be important for Islam? I understand Christianity's reason--Jesus needed to be a sacrifice that was unblemished from Adams "original sin". But Muslims reject the original sin concept, so why do they need Mary to be a virgin? I mean seriously, if a woman today came and said I have a child but there's no father, would anyone take her seriously? ISIS-minded people would cut her head off. Do Muslims believe that virgin births can still happen today, or was it unique to Isa?

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But Muslims reject the original sin concept, so why do they need Mary to be a virgin? 

 

There may be no need visible to the naked eye. The question of need does not arise. 

 

God can do and does things that,we cannot unearth the need for.

 

Do you think we can understand everything that God does?

 

The Islamic view is that we cannot.

 

Do Muslims believe that virgin births can still happen today, or was it unique to Isa?

 

It can happen, if God wills. But I don't think it will.

 

It's not that outside the natural order of things

 

The Islamic view is that God can do and does things that are completely outside the natural order of things. 

 

They cannot be explained by the laws of physics, biology or other sciences. 

 

Like the Virgin birth and many other things.

I see wiggle room in Surah 19. Mary says no one touched her yet. The angel says "so it will be

 

In Islamic & Quranic tradition, everyone is referred to as the son of his father.  Except Jesus.

 

Always referred to as son of Mary.

 I mean seriously, if a woman today came and said I have a child but there's no father, would anyone take her seriously?

 

True, they did not take her seriously. That does not automatically mean that it was not true.

 

The truth or falsehood of something does not depend on mockers and sceptics.

 

The truth is the truth regardless what others might think. 

ISIS-minded people would cut her head off. 

 

ISIS is like the anti-Christ of Islam.

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I absolutely reject the idea of a virgin birth. For one, why would the Creator, who is Just, break his own Law? (Natural law states that 1 man + 1 woman = babies). Secondly, if he had no legal bloodline to trace back to David, how could Jesus possibly be the Messiah? He couldn't be. Thirdly, and perhaps most blasphemous, if Mary were betrothed to Joseph (who the NT describes as righteous), it would be adulterous if God caused her impregnation without the knowledge or consent of Joseph. I personally hold the belief that Joseph was the actual father.

 

Since you say first, etc, I'll address them as points:

 

1) Why would God break his own law? For us, it a law. We've interpreted it as a law. We understand God through anthropomorphisms. He's not a human that he should follow them. In the way we understand "the Son of God" is also an anthropomorphism, as is the mystery of the Trinity.

 

2) There's an answer for this done by Christian mystics. When Jesus was to be born, an angel took the semen of Joseph, presented it before God, and this is where God blessed it and said "you will be Jesus, the Messiah and Son." He had an angel announce it to her. She accepted (magnificat), He then allowed for the conception of Mary with Joseph's now blessed seed (via Holy Spirit), still without sexual union. Apparently, this is taken direct from Jewish Kabbalah, where the semen of the father is taken and the future of the baby is imprinted by God. Therefore not only does the bloodline exist, but Jesus is the son of both Joseph and God. God through word, Joseph through seed. We later see that through a crowd, like Sinai, God says "This is my Son". We have matter transfer from heaven to Mary, and an angel that announces it to her, and later confirmation of Mary's story "God did it" when God himself speaks to a crowd.

 

3) Joseph consented, after he struggled with her story for a bit.

 

 

So here's what we are left with. If Matthew did believe that this was a virgin birth, then we have TWO virgin births recorded.

Your entire argument is that there are 2 virgin births (I think).

We have one...Jesus, the son of God, born of Mary.

Where is the second one? Rabbis constantly say that it could have either been Ahaz's wife (which Rashi disagrees with) OR it was a relative.

 

You say it is prophetess, the wife of Isaiah. If this is what Rashi says, I'm poised to believe you on the Jewish interpretation of this, however, it's not the Christian one. Rashi in 7:14 spoke about the messiah. What's Maher's lineage is that of David, if so?

 

I don't understand how Rashi reconciles Immanuel with Maher, after he says that this is a Messianic prophecy, and then says that Maher is the fulfillment of this prophecy...so then he's the messiah. But the Israelis faced slavery after his birth. Am I missing something or is there a discrepancy?

 

It's been suggested that the Septuagint was made with certain sources in existence that may not be available today.

παρθένος is the one used in 7:14. Not only that, but Proverbs 30:14 in Hebrew & Greek

The way of an eagle in the air; the way of a serpent on a rock; the way of a ship in the middle of the sea; and the way of a man with a maid.

 

καὶ ὁδοὺς ὄφεως ἐπὶ πέτρας, καὶ τρίβους νηὸς ποντοπορούσης, καὶ ὁδοὺς ἀνδρὸς ἐν νεότητι.

 

דרך הנשר ׀ בשמים דרך נחש עלי צור דרך־אניה בלב־ים ודרך גבר בעלמה

 

νεότητι=עלמה

 

How is it that Almah in one place is translated something and in another parthenos?

 

A virgin birth, everyone is amazed at. Just a month ago snakes were born from parthenogenesis...partheno (u/s) like virgin.

 

Why is Immanuel's mother Jane Doe?

If you want to say this is the messiah, as Rashi interprets 7:14, where is his genealogy to David? Either he fails or this is a different prophecy: Why did Maher fail as Messiah, as in every Jews interpretation of Messiah?

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God through word, Joseph through seed.

 

 

Do you mean that biologically Jesus was the son of Joseph ? 

 

Never heard of such a thing.

 

Joseph consented, after he struggled with her story for a bit.

 

Consented to what?

 

Why would a virgin birth be important for Islam?

 

We don't believe something because it is important..

 

We seek the truth whether it is important or not.

 

Besides, what may be important to one person may not be important to another.

 

Islam does not share that view that Jesus was the biological son of Joseph. .

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Do you mean that biologically Jesus was the son of Joseph ?

 

Again, its a mystic thing and how I've heard their argument explained. I'm not sure if it was changed by God in the "imprint" stage. This argument was given by people who obviously knew Kabbalah so I can't say I'm 100% sure I even have the explanation right...but there were early Christian mystics that were Jewish because Christianity and Judaism were the same religion until around 400.

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I don't think many Christians share the view that Jesus was the biological son of Joseph.

 

And of course, Islam certainly does not.

His birth was a miracle of God. 

 

That's not to say I believe in their interpretation. It's just that its been answered by Christian mystics, which answers 2 questions N had.

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Allow me to use an example. Let's say a father decided to play "hide and seek" with his children. He teaches them how to play. "I'll hide, and you try to find me," he says. He cherishes the bonding time; likewise, the children are excited to play with their father. Now, is the father bound by any laws while playing this game? No. He could "hide" in his car and drive off. He could change the rules and say "you didn't find me because I wore a pink shirt." But, the father won't go to this extreme. He awkwardly hides behind a couch, and his kids easily find him. Why? Because the father loves his children. He doesn't change the rules on them in the middle of the game. Just because the father follows a few silly rules, doesn't mean that he isn't in absolute control of his house, does it?

Likewise, when the Creator does something miraculous, I don't think it means he works completely without regard to the natural order of things. So using your example Baqar--the splitting of the sea by Moses. It says in Exodus 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the Lord led the sea with the strong east wind all night, and He made the sea into dry land and the waters split. It says that haShem used a strong east wind to split it! While very miraculous, we know that wind does in fact move water. It's not that outside the natural order of things. Same thing as the miraculous birth of Isaac-it was a miracle that Abraham and Sarah could conceive in their old age, but there was still a sperm cell and an egg. The natural order wasn't disregarded. As with the snake/staff battle-I don't know how that works lol.

I liked Invokers post. He did raise an interesting point--only hadith explicitly refers to a virgin birth. I see wiggle room in Surah 19. Mary says no one touched her yet. The angel says "so it will be. Then, in the next two sentences, conceives and gives birth. These ayat seem to be telling a general story, couldn't we assume that she had relations with Joseph at some point? Why would a virgin birth be important for Islam? I understand Christianity's reason--Jesus needed to be a sacrifice that was unblemished from Adams "original sin". But Muslims reject the original sin concept, so why do they need Mary to be a virgin? I mean seriously, if a woman today came and said I have a child but there's no father, would anyone take her seriously? ISIS-minded people would cut her head off. Do Muslims believe that virgin births can still happen today, or was it unique to Isa?

Well, Jesus or Esa was a messenger , one of many who were sent to bani Israel. His mission was to guide the lost sheeps of bani Israel, but how exactly they were lost and how exactly was he supposed to lead them?

I think the answer of the above question should answer your question about the importance of the Virgin birth sinc the miracle of his birth was part of his message. tried to find some of ah lumbar explanation quickly but couldn't , when I do, I'll post them here.

But I remember reading few things when I was studying Jewish questions to our prophet. It is well known that the jews were divided into sects. One of the major differences is their dispute on resurrection. Also in Quran and in Jewish history, there was a dispute about Allah's /haShem interference in the world , breaking the natural laws for miracles or other wise.

That's the importance of the Virgin birth. To admit that placing conditions and restrictions upon Allah is wrong.

The message of Jesus contained also many other miracles that were similar to his virgin birth. He created birds out of mud and he resurrected the dead. He walked on water etc. He broke many natural laws and that was easy upon Allah. What Allah dose not take lightly is to be described as restrained god by his own created laws.

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If Muhammed did not recieve the truth about Jesus birth from God via Gabriel, then it is pretty certain he had heard the story from Christians. But there are two different stories in the Bible, this could have caused some confusion and resulting in a third version. Mark, John, Peter or Paul does not mention Virgin birth at all. We know thou that in the first Christian community, lead by a brother of Jesus, there were not consensus about it. Some believed Joseph to be the father. Maybe it was not so important until the Canon was established by the church.

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Allow me to use an example. Let's say a father decided to play "hide and seek" with his children. He teaches them how to play. "I'll hide, and you try to find me," he says. He cherishes the bonding time; likewise, the children are excited to play with their father. Now, is the father bound by any laws while playing this game? No. He could "hide" in his car and drive off. He could change the rules and say "you didn't find me because I wore a pink shirt." But, the father won't go to this extreme. He awkwardly hides behind a couch, and his kids easily find him. Why? Because the father loves his children. He doesn't change the rules on them in the middle of the game. Just because the father follows a few silly rules, doesn't mean that he isn't in absolute control of his house, does it?

 

This exampled is flawed. Because God is not confined with time, space, and continuum. He is the creator of all things. While in your example, the father gives the rules regarding the game [which you have not defined], and plays in it, therefore subjecting himself to those laws. Again, God's system is not a game where He decides to play. God is not human, nor is He weak, nor does He have laws upon Himself. Both the son and father can break these laws, because these laws are not confining, or in need of an absolute being i.e miracles. So in this case, this example cannot be compared to that of God. Also you comparing "absolute" control of the house with the game, has no comparisons.  They are two completely different systems.

 

 

Likewise, when the Creator does something miraculous, I don't think it means he works completely without regard to the natural order of things. So using your example Baqar--the splitting of the sea by Moses. It says in Exodus 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the Lord led the sea with the strong east wind all night, and He made the sea into dry land and the waters split. It says that haShem used a strong east wind to split it! While very miraculous, we know that wind does in fact move water. It's not that outside the natural order of things. Same thing as the miraculous birth of Isaac-it was a miracle that Abraham and Sarah could conceive in their old age, but there was still a sperm cell and an egg. The natural order wasn't disregarded. As with the snake/staff battle-I don't know how that works lol.

 

You keep insisting that God must work under a natural order. Did God x create this God y to make sure the God y does His job properly, because this God y is weak and misguiding? Or did God Himself create it, to keep Himself in check, because He is afraid He may break laws and He may make mistakes? Also these examples you are giving me, are you implying God was not in control of those miracles? Because controlling the sea and splitting it with wind at a certain time to save someone, is in need of an Almighty being. That isnt part of the natural order. You dont see, sea's being split to save drowning men, now do you? Sure, you gave a few examples that are closely confined and understandable in this day and age, but there are more miracles, beyond science, that has happened in regards to Moses A.S in your Jewish books. lol see, so how would you explain the staff?

 

 

I liked Invokers post. He did raise an interesting point--only hadith explicitly refers to a virgin birth. I see wiggle room in Surah 19. Mary says no one touched her yet. The angel says "so it will be. Then, in the next two sentences, conceives and gives birth. These ayat seem to be telling a general story, couldn't we assume that she had relations with Joseph at some point? Why would a virgin birth be important for Islam? I understand Christianity's reason--Jesus needed to be a sacrifice that was unblemished from Adams "original sin". But Muslims reject the original sin concept, so why do they need Mary to be a virgin? I mean seriously, if a woman today came and said I have a child but there's no father, would anyone take her seriously? ISIS-minded people would cut her head off. Do Muslims believe that virgin births can still happen today, or was it unique to Isa?

 

You have to realize hadiths are fundemental to the Islamic faith, both in a historical sense, and in an divine authoritative sense. In fact the quran commands it, Obey Muhammad A.S, take what ever he gives you, and forbid what ever he forbids, and so forth. Now, your mistake in regards to understanding that verse is an english comprehension one. An anegl, who states, I AM ONLY A MESSENGER, which abolishes any claim that this angel conceived a child with Mary A.S. Then goes on to say Allah will grant you a child, and Mary's response is: She said: ‘How can I have a son, and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have I been unchaste?’, not "no mortal has touched me yet". Two different grammatical structures. One implies, I am a virgin, while the other introduces the possibility of not being a virgin in the future. Your assumption about Joseph, is just an assumption, so its weak in itself. The virgin birth is very important because it is a proof of an absolute God, not for Muslim's today, but the ultimate truth for the jewish and christian people of that time. It also strengthens the ultimate truth of Islam, for the christians and jews of todays time. Prophet Isa A.S was one of the greatest servants of Allah, a being incomparable, except to other great Prophets of God.

 

Learn about Moses A.S though the quranic understanding:

 

http://www.al-islam.org/enlightening-commentary-light-holy-quran-vol-13/section-4-moses-commissioned-apostleship

 

Learn more about Jesus AS though Imami Shia Islam's understanding:

 

http://www.al-islam.org/jesus-though-shiite-narrations-mahdi-muntazir-qaim

http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/vol13-no3/words-word-god-jesus-christ-speaks-through-shii-narrations

http://www.al-islam.org/articles/closer-look-christianity-mohamed-qasem

 

(wasalam)

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Hi Netzari,

I see you have aroused a lot of interest, so that is good for discussion.
Sometimes we don’t know how weird some of the stories are until the right cord is struck. --- Thank you for starting a thread that shows so much misunderstanding of what the Scriptures say.

I am not apologizing for believing the Bible, as though I have lead a sheltered life, --- but as always, I go with what the Scriptures say, and not what the critics or commentators say.

Quote from Post 1:
--- I absolutely reject the idea of a virgin birth. --- For one, why would the Creator, who is Just, break his own Law? (Natural law states that 1 man + 1 woman = babies). Secondly, if he had no legal bloodline to trace back to David, how could Jesus possibly be the Messiah? He couldn't be. Thirdly, and perhaps most blasphemous, if Mary were betrothed to Joseph (who the NT describes as righteous), it would be adulterous if God caused her impregnation without the knowledge or consent of Joseph. I personally hold the belief that Joseph was the actual father.

Response: --- I guess this will keep us going for a while, but I will gladly tell you what I understand the Scriptures to say.

--- The virgin birth was announced, as has been said in Isaiah 7:
10 Moreover the LORD spoke again to Ahaz, saying,
11 “Ask a sign for yourself from the LORD your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above.”
12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, nor will I test the LORD!”
13 Then he said, “Hear now, O HOUSE OF DAVID! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also?
14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you (the House of David) a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

--- Did you notice that the prophecy was directed towards the HOUSE of DAVID. --- Had Ahaz asked for a sign for some unnatural intervention like a hailstorm, or sudden weakness so that the enemy couldn’t even carry their weapons, he would have avoided the murder of the 120,000 soldiers who died in one day in Judah.

So the birth of the son of Isaiah was a partial fulfillment, but not from a virgin birth. --- The name given to the child in 8:3 was Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz, which means (from my Bible Dictionary), --- ‘the spoils speeds, the prey hastens.’ --- And this refers to the soon invasion of Judah, and the take over of both Judah and Israel by Assyria. --- Which happened within about two years, --- before the baby could talk, as it says in 8:
4 for before the child shall have knowledge to cry ‘My father’ and ‘My mother,’ the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be taken away before the king of Assyria.”

But the longer term prophecy to the House of David was for the next time God would bring victory and redemption to His people through the house of David, which would be through the New Covenant that God would make with them, Jeremiah 31:
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

--- This, of course, refers to the Holy Spirit that was with Jesus, and was given to the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost. --- That Holy Spirit 'indwelt' the believers and put God’s law in their minds and hearts, --- and the Holy Spirit empowered them to continue the same miracles and healing that Jesus did, while He was with them.

I don’t want to make the posts too long, but cover the points one at a time,

Placid

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