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In the Name of God بسم الله

The Virgin Birth

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5000558551_Soor-e-At_Tahreem.png

 

Quran is clearly mentioned.

 

 

Brother you have to be very careful about Sahih international. Stay away form it. They are saudi sponsored translators which distort the true meaning of the quran and add their own views to twist quranic words and meanings. Some will misinterpret that verse when the arabic does not imply that translation what so ever. They added garmet and angel when the arabic clearly means spirit.

 

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rwH#%2866:12:10%29

 

[shakir 66:12] And Marium, the daughter of Imran, who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our inspiration and she accepted the truth of the words of her Lord and His books, and she was of, the obedient ones.

[Pickthal 66:12] And Mary, daughter of 'Imran, whose body was chaste, therefor We breathed therein something of Our Spirit. And she put faith in the words of her Lord and His scriptures, and was of the obedient.

 

وَمَرْيَمَ ابْنَتَ عِمْرَانَ الَّتِي أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهِ مِنْ رُوحِنَا

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  I mean seriously, if a woman today came and said I have a child but there's no father, would anyone take her seriously? ISIS-minded people would cut her head off. Do Muslims believe that virgin births can still happen today, or was it unique to Isa?

 

There is one mirror image. When another prophet came after Prophet Moses (as) .. people reject him and not accepted Prophet Isa (as) .. then another Prophet came and Follower of Prophet Isa (as) reject him. When someone is habitual to reject guidance from God what is surety ?  they  will not reject Miracle which is only to guide mankind and make them fear from God and not to do Unlawful acts. 

 

:D 

Brother you have to be very careful about Sahih international. Stay away form it. They are saudi sponsored translators which distort the true meaning of the quran and add their own views to twist quranic words and meanings. Some will misinterpret that verse when the arabic does not imply that translation what so ever. They added garmet and angel when the arabic clearly means spirit.

 

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rwH#%2866:12:10%29

 

[shakir 66:12] And Marium, the daughter of Imran, who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our inspiration and she accepted the truth of the words of her Lord and His books, and she was of, the obedient ones.

[Pickthal 66:12] And Mary, daughter of 'Imran, whose body was chaste, therefor We breathed therein something of Our Spirit. And she put faith in the words of her Lord and His scriptures, and was of the obedient.

 

وَمَرْيَمَ ابْنَتَ عِمْرَانَ الَّتِي أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهِ مِنْ رُوحِنَا

 

Ok i will take care of it from next time. Thank you for mentioning this.

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 Why would a virgin birth be important for Islam? 

 

 

The main objective was to make the muslims believe that Isa was surely a son of God nauzubillah. 

 

 

He created man from a sperm-drop; then at once, he is a clear adversary. 16:4

 

 

So according to the Quran Man is made from a sperm drop. If Isa was not a produced from a sperm drop, than its ok to assume that he was the son of God. 

 

Frankly speaking, u wont get any satisfying answers from these guys, the reason is that they are so much mingled in hadith i.e sayings of fallibles that they have absolutely no idea of Quranic wisdom. The only possible way to debate with these guys is by asking how was Yahya born? Without a father? or a mother? They will run away helpless. 

 

 

 

 

. But Muslims reject the original sin concept, so why do they need Mary to be a virgin? I mean seriously, if a woman today came and said I have a child but there's no father, would anyone take her seriously? ISIS-minded people would cut her head off. Do Muslims believe that virgin births can still happen today, or was it unique to Isa?

 

 

 

Back then Jews used to stone the person to death who committed adultery. Do u know that?

Edited by Invoker
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The main objective was to make the muslims believe that Isa was surely a son of God nauzubillah. 

 

 

He created man from a sperm-drop; then at once, he is a clear adversary. 16:4

 

 

So according to the Quran Man is made from a sperm drop. If Isa was not a produced from a sperm drop, than its ok to assume that he was the son of God. 

 

Frankly speaking, u wont get any satisfying answers from these guys, the reason is that they are so much mingled in hadith i.e sayings of fallibles that they have absolutely no idea of Quranic wisdom. The only possible way to debate with these guys is by asking how was Yahya born? Without a father? or a mother? They will run away helpless. 

 

We can't expect anything good from Munkir-e-Quran. Quran already mentioned a verse on you. We sealed there ears and they can't listen truth, A layer is on there eyes and they can't see truth. Proof me this verse is not for you ?  :P

Edited by alirex
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We can't expect anything good from Munkir-e-Quran. 

 

 

Ali ibn al-Hakam has narrated from Hisham ibn Salim from abu ‘Abd Allah,
recipient of divine supreme covenant, who has said the following:
 
 
“Abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, has
said, ‘The Holy Quran that Jibril (Gabriel) brought to
Muhammad, recipient of divine supreme covenant, had
seventeen thousand verses.’”
 
(Al Kafi Vol 2 pg 491 hadith# 3578) scanned reference will be provided upon request. More narrations on tahreef of Quran can b provided as well.
 
 
 
Quran says: 
 
 
 
Verily, We Ourselves have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We will be its Guardian, (Al-Hijr, 15:9)
 
 
 
 
I hope ur OS didnt crash after reading this.  :lol:
Edited by Invoker
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Ali ibn al-Hakam has narrated from Hisham ibn Salim from abu ‘Abd Allah,
recipient of divine supreme covenant, who has said the following:
 
 
“Abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, has
said, ‘The Holy Quran that Jibril (Gabriel) brought to
Muhammad, recipient of divine supreme covenant, had
seventeen thousand verses.’”
 
(Al Kafi Vol 2 pg 491 hadith# 3578) scanned reference will be provided upon request. More narrations on tahreef of Quran can b provided as well.
 
 
 
Quran says: 
 
 
 
Verily, We Ourselves have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We will be its Guardian, (Al-Hijr, 15:10)
 
 
 
 
I hope ur OS didnt crash after reading this.  :lol:

 

Your scroll broked ? The above given Verses are from Quran too which indicates Hazrat Maryam purety. And you are arguing on Quran ? You left islam ?

 

1741270215_Soore-Al-Maryam.png

Edited by alirex
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U r a confused young fella. Read post #15 & go to sleep.

Ok thanks i was not quoting that verses but the verse in red. And thanx for telling me young fella .. The supplication of Allama Iqbal " Oh my Lord, make these young leader of olds " .. " Aye mere rab in jawano ko boodhon ka sardar bana de " .. that time is coming now very soon. Don't tell me you dont respect Allama Iqbal .. you are living in a land which was called as " Dream Of Iqbal "  :D

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Ok thanks i was not quoting that verses but the verse in red.

Which verse?

And thanx for telling me young fella ..

Is that a compliment?

The supplication of Allama Iqbal " Oh my Lord, make these young leader of olds " .. " Aye mere rab in jawano ko boodhon ka sardar bana de " .. that time is coming now very soon.

To understand Iqbal u need to be aware of the deep knowledge of science, history, philosophy and tasawwuf and the assumptions underlying each. Most important of all, it requires a deep understanding of the Qur’an because while Iqbal often speaks the language of the philosophers of the West, his ideas are firmly rooted in his own spiritual inheritance from the Qur’an

Don't tell me you dont respect Allama Iqbal ..

Even if do respect his views i wont tell u that either, so need to get excited.

you are living in a land which was called as " Dream Of Iqbal " :D

& u r living in a land which is called a "3rd world [edited] hole" ....... Not by me but by many tourists who once paid a visit to India.

Edited by Haydar Husayn
Foul language
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& u r living in a land which is called a "3rd world [edited] hole" ....... Not by me but by many tourists who once paid a visit to India.

Your message is already edited for using Foul Language. .. What we can expect from you ? Who tried to abuse someone ? :D

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Hi Netzari,

To continue from Post 35;
Considering the prophecy, I want to suggest from the history of the kings of Judah, why this Sign was so important in Isaiah 7:

11 “Ask a sign for yourself from the LORD your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above.”
12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, nor will I test the LORD!”
13 Then he (Isaiah) said, “Hear now, O HOUSE OF DAVID! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also?
14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you (the House of David) a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

The kings of Israel that ruled from Samaria had become evil in the sight of God, Joash was perhaps the last good king of Israel, the Northern tribes, --- but then they returned to their evil ways, and followed idolatry.
--- But the kings of Judah, the Southern tribes had remained faithful.

If we check the history of the kings of Judah we find that Isaiah had been the Prophet from King Uzziah to Hezekiah, as it says in Isaiah 1:
1 The vision of Isaiah, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

Uzziah was a good king who brought great prosperity to Judah in that he built cities and built up a large army to protect them, and God blessed the kingdom of Judah. --- However, he got leprosy 2 Chronocles 26:19, and he had to be separated and kept apart from the people, and his son Jotham took the throne as king, in his place. And it says in 2 Chronicles 27:
1 Jotham was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem.
2 And he did what was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his father Uzziah had done
--- (He died at about age 41 and was buried in Bethlehem, the city of David,)
9 So Jotham rested with his fathers, and they buried him in the City of David. Then Ahaz his son reigned in his place.

 

--- And It begins with Ahaz as king in 2 Chronicles, 28:
1 Ahaz was twenty years old when he became king, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem; and he did not do what was right in the sight of the LORD, as his father David had done.
2 For he walked in the ways of the kings of Israel, and made molded images for the Baals.
3 He burned incense in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, and burned his children in the fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel.

So Ahaz had quickly turned away from following the ways of David, and the ways of his grandfather Uzziah, and his father Jotham.
--- Ahaz was the last chance to preserve Judah for the Lord, so the opportunity was given in Isaiah 7:11 to “ASK ANYTHING” of the Lord.

Remember Gideon defeated over 100,000 Midianites with 300 men.
--- And THE MARCH OF FAITH when the city of Samaria was starving from the siege of the Syrians, in 2 Kings 7
3 Now there were four leprous men at the entrance of the gate; and they said to one another, “Why are we sitting here until we die?
4 If we say, ‘We will enter the city,’ the famine is in the city, and we shall die there. And if we sit here, we die also. Now therefore, come, let us surrender to the army of the Syrians. If they keep us alive, we shall live; and if they kill us, we shall only die.”
5 And they rose at twilight to go to the camp of the Syrians; and when they had come to the outskirts of the Syrian camp, to their surprise no one was there.
6 For the Lord had caused the army of the Syrians to hear the noise of chariots and the noise of horses—the noise of a great army; so they said to one another, “Look, the king of Israel has hired against us the kings of the Hittites and the kings of the Egyptians to attack us!”
7 Therefore they arose and fled at twilight, and left the camp intact—their tents, their horses, and their donkeys—and they fled for their lives.
8 And when these lepers came to the outskirts of the camp, they went into one tent and ate and drank, and carried from it silver and gold and clothing.
9 Then they said to one another, “We are not doing right. This day is a day of good news, and we remain silent. If we wait until morning light, some punishment will come upon us. Now therefore, come, let us go and tell the king’s household.”
--- So they did, and the people of the city came out and took the food and clothing from the Syrian camp, and survived.
God could have delivered Judah again, but Ahaz said, “I will not ask, neither will I test God.” --- So we can almost hear Isaiah raise his voice as he said, --- “O HOUSE OF DAVID.” --- Since Ahaz rejected God’s help, this was the end of the kingdom for both Israel and Judah, and the end of the Old Covenant, was it not?
The Jews of Samaria were carried off to Assyria, --- and in 600 BC, was the Captivity of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar, and the 70 year Babylonian captivity.

--- Then the Sign given referred to the New Covenant God would make, as expressed in Jeremiah 31:31-34, --- and the fulfillment was given in Hebrews 8:
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Now I want to ask you, Netzari, is this accurate to the Scripture, or what is your assessment?

Placid

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When Muslims deny God has a Son, is it a normal human being as a result of an intercourse they are thinking of?

This is not what Luke and Mathew say. They agree with the Quran that Jesus has no human genetical father. What can we call such a "person"? Christians call him Son of God, Muslims call him a prophet. But we can not even imagine what kind of being he is, what his DNA looks like, or if he has got any DNA at all.

We have two human reports in the NT about the Virgin birth and one in the Quran that claims to originate from God himself. They do not match and there are many good reasons to argue all three are myths. For the Quran that claims to be the perfect word of God, this is a greater problem than for the authors of the Gospels, that "only" claim to be human reporters.

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Andres,

I see you are still trying to discredit the Scriptures by thinking there are differences in the conception and birth of Jesus.

I was going to write this for Netzari anyway, so it can be to your attention, too.

Starting with Luke, who was a Greek historian and wanted to give accurate details, who would have to get them from Joseph and Mary. Luke 1:
26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,
27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.
28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”
29 But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was.
30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS.
32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest;
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.
--- Notice that in verses 31: “You shall conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall CALL His name Jesus.”
In verse 32: “He will be great, and will be CALLED the Son of the Highest.”
In verse 35: “That Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.

The conception of Jesus was announced in fewer words in Matthew 1:
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.
20 The Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”

This same 'conception of the Holy Spirit’ is seen in the Quran in Surah 19:
19 He (the angel) said: "Nay, I am only an apostle from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
20 She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
21 He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."
22 So she conceived him.

Again it gives the account in Surah 3:
45 Yusuf Ali: Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of those nearest to God;

45 Pickthall: (And remember) when the angel said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).

--- What is interesting to note is that the Word will be CALLED both Christ, and Messiah. --- And Jesus will be CALLED Jesus (Savior).

And it says again in Surah 19:
33 (Jesus said), "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
34 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
35 It is not befitting to God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

--- “It is not befitting,” (out of the ordinary) “To God, that He should beget a Son” (bring a Son into the world), “Glory be to Him! --- WHEN HE DETERMINES A MATTER, He only says to it, ‘Be’ --- and it is.”

(These are Jesus’ words, like He said also in Surah 3:51)
36 “Verily God is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve (worship) this is a Way that is straight.”

And, the ‘coming to her of the Holy Spirit’ is mentioned in the following verses, Surah 21:
91 Yusuf Ali: And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a Sign for all peoples.
91 Sher Ali: And remember her who guarded her chastity, so WE breathed into her of Our Word and WE made her and her son a Sign for all peoples.
91 Arberry: And she who guarded her virginity, so We breathed into her of Our Spirit and appointed her and her son to be a Sign unto all beings.

And another verse in Surah 66:
12 Yusuf Ali: And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our Spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants).
12 Palmer: And Mary, daughter of Imran, who guarded her private parts, and We breathed therein of Our Spirit and she verified the words of her Lord and His books, and was of the devout.
12 Rodwell: And Mary, the daughter of Imran, who kept her maidenhood, and into whose womb We breathed of Our Spirit, and who believed in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures, and was one of the devout.

And what does it say about giving life to Adam? --- Genesis 2:
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of Life; and man became a living being.

--- So, you see how easy it was for God to create a life, by the breath of the Holy Spirit?

And finally, in Surah 3:
59 The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

Placid

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Salam and Shalom everyone! I'm sorry for the late reply, I've been really busy with work. Brother PureEthics, I'm not insisting that God must follow the laws that He created the universe with, I'm just observing that He seems to work within its parameters. I guess we're never going to agree about that :) .

And to brother Salamtek:

I don't understand how Rashi reconciles Immanuel with Maher, after he says that this is a Messianic prophecy, and then says that Maher is the fulfillment of this prophecy...so then he's the messiah.

If you read Rashi's commentary carefully, he doesn't explicitly say that this is a messianic prophecy per se. He merely states that the Holy One, blessed be He, wished for Hezekiah to be Messiah. There's a very old concept in Judaism that in every age, there is a potential candidate to be the Messiah (I don't have references with me right now, but I assure you it exists). So, how does Rashi reconcile "Immanuel" with "Maher"? In his commentary, he interprets Isaiah 7:14 accordingly (sorry, I only have English translation available to me right now, but you'll get the point):

the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign: He will give you a sign by Himself, against Your will.

is with child: This is actually the future, as we find concerning Manoah’s wife, that the angel said to her (Judges 13:3): “And you shall conceive and bear a son,” and it is written, “Behold, you are with child and shall bear a son.”

the young woman: My wife will conceive this year. This was the fourth year of Ahaz.

and she shall call his name: Divine inspiration will rest upon her.

Immanuel: That is to say that our Rock shall be with us, and this is the sign, for she is a young girl, and she never prophesied, yet in this instance, Divine inspiration shall rest upon her. This is what is stated below (8:3): “And I was intimate with the prophetess, etc.,” and we do not find a prophet’s wife called a prophetess unless she prophesied. Some interpret this as being said about Hezekiah, but it is impossible, because, when you count his years, you find that Hezekiah was born nine years before his father’s reign. And some interpret that this is the sign, that she was a young girl and incapable of giving birth.

And Rashi writes regarding Isaiah 8:3 and she bore a son: He is the very son whom the prophetess called Immanuel, since the Holy One, blessed be He, would be at the aid of Hezekiah when he would reign. [it is impossible to say that it was another son, for we learned [in Seder Olam ch. 22] that in the fourth year of Ahaz, this prophecy was said, and in the fourth year of Ahaz, Pekah was assassinated, and it is impossible for two children to be born in one year, one after the other.] And Isaiah his father called him Maher- shalal-hash-baz, because of the calamity destined to befall Rezin and the son of Remaliah, who were coming to wrest the kingdom from the House of David and to curtail the kingdom of Hezekiah.

I would like to raise two points. One, this was a specific prophecy for King Ahaz. Ahaz had to see it's fulfilment. Secondly, Matthews gospel is known for being "Jewish". Surely, if Matthew were a Jew living during the second Temple period, he was aware of the "PaRDeS" method of exegesis (I outlined it in the first post). Upon closer inspection of many of his prophecies, it is apparent that he takes a prophecy about Israel and applies it to his messiah (Matthew 2:15, 2:17, 4:15, 13:14, 27:9, etc). Bible critics claim that Matthews scholarship was dubious, while many Christians misinterpret this phenomena as "dual" prophecies. Remember the important rule about "PaRDeS", the extended meanings can never contradict the simple reading! I think Matthew knew what he was doing. By using "derash" he was trying to show that his messiah was the embodiment of Israel itself, in a metaphorical manner. Which brings me back to my original point in the very first post, if we interpret Isaiah 7 as "virgin", then there were 2 virgin births! Thank you all for bearing with me!

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Hi Netzari,

Quote: While many Christians misinterpret this phenomena as "dual" prophecies. Remember the important rule about "PaRDeS", the extended meanings can never contradict the simple reading! I think Matthew knew what he was doing.

Response: --- I realize that Hebrew and Greek words have deeper meaning than the translation, but what you call ‘Dual prophecies,’ I have referred to as ‘Interwoven prophecies.’ --- And at times in Isaiah, he speaks a prophecy in the first person, as in Isaiah 61:
1 “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, Because the LORD has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,

And it says in Luke 4:
14 Then Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and news of Him went out through all the surrounding region.
15 And He taught in their synagogues, being glorified by all.
16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.
17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:
18 “The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD.”

20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him.
21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”
22 So all bore witness to Him, and marveled at the gracious words which proceeded out of His mouth. And they said, “Is this not Joseph’s son?”

So, you see that the Prophecies of Isaiah were fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Now if we go back to Isaiah 8:
3 “Then I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son.”

This fulfilled the prophecy in the days of Ahaz within two years, --- through Isaiah, himself, but the son's name was Maher Shalal Hash-Baz, --- which spelled destruction for Judah and Israel.

It says this in Luke 1:
30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. --- (The name JESUS means Savior.
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.”
36 Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren.
37 For with God nothing will be impossible.”
38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

Then you said, no one should be called a prophetess, unless they prophesy, and it says later in Luke 1:
39 Now Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste, to a city of Judah,
40 and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth.
41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
42 Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
43 But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44 For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
45 Blessed is she who believed, for there will be a fulfillment of those things which were told her from the Lord.”

 

(Mary was filled with the Holy Spirit) and this has been called) The Song of Mary
46 And Mary said: “My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.
49 For He who is mighty has done great things for me, And holy is His name.
50 And His mercy is on those who fear Him From generation to generation.
51 He has shown strength with His arm; He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
52 He has put down the mighty from their thrones, And exalted the lowly.
53 He has filled the hungry with good things, And the rich He has sent away empty.
54 He has helped His servant Israel, In remembrance of His mercy,
55 As He spoke to our fathers, To Abraham and to his seed forever.”

--- So the Virgin conceived by the Holy Spirit, and the ‘prophetess’ prophesied.
Jesus was the Savior, --- and the Word, who came down from heaven to ‘indwell’ Jesus was identified as Christ, the Messiah.

Placid

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Salam and Shalom everyone! I'm sorry for the late reply, I've been really busy with work. Brother PureEthics, I'm not insisting that God must follow the laws that He created the universe with, I'm just observing that He seems to work within its parameters. I guess we're never going to agree about that :) .

And to brother Salamtek:

If you read Rashi's commentary carefully, he doesn't explicitly say that this is a messianic prophecy per se. He merely states that the Holy One, blessed be He, wished for Hezekiah to be Messiah. There's a very old concept in Judaism that in every age, there is a potential candidate to be the Messiah (I don't have references with me right now, but I assure you it exists). So, how does Rashi reconcile "Immanuel" with "Maher"? In his commentary, he interprets Isaiah 7:14 accordingly (sorry, I only have English translation available to me right now, but you'll get the point):

the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign: He will give you a sign by Himself, against Your will.

is with child: This is actually the future, as we find concerning Manoah’s wife, that the angel said to her (Judges 13:3): “And you shall conceive and bear a son,” and it is written, “Behold, you are with child and shall bear a son.”

the young woman: My wife will conceive this year. This was the fourth year of Ahaz.

and she shall call his name: Divine inspiration will rest upon her.

Immanuel: That is to say that our Rock shall be with us, and this is the sign, for she is a young girl, and she never prophesied, yet in this instance, Divine inspiration shall rest upon her. This is what is stated below (8:3): “And I was intimate with the prophetess, etc.,” and we do not find a prophet’s wife called a prophetess unless she prophesied. Some interpret this as being said about Hezekiah, but it is impossible, because, when you count his years, you find that Hezekiah was born nine years before his father’s reign. And some interpret that this is the sign, that she was a young girl and incapable of giving birth.

And Rashi writes regarding Isaiah 8:3 and she bore a son: He is the very son whom the prophetess called Immanuel, since the Holy One, blessed be He, would be at the aid of Hezekiah when he would reign. [it is impossible to say that it was another son, for we learned [in Seder Olam ch. 22] that in the fourth year of Ahaz, this prophecy was said, and in the fourth year of Ahaz, Pekah was assassinated, and it is impossible for two children to be born in one year, one after the other.] And Isaiah his father called him Maher- shalal-hash-baz, because of the calamity destined to befall Rezin and the son of Remaliah, who were coming to wrest the kingdom from the House of David and to curtail the kingdom of Hezekiah.

I would like to raise two points. One, this was a specific prophecy for King Ahaz. Ahaz had to see it's fulfilment. Secondly, Matthews gospel is known for being "Jewish". Surely, if Matthew were a Jew living during the second Temple period, he was aware of the "PaRDeS" method of exegesis (I outlined it in the first post). Upon closer inspection of many of his prophecies, it is apparent that he takes a prophecy about Israel and applies it to his messiah (Matthew 2:15, 2:17, 4:15, 13:14, 27:9, etc). Bible critics claim that Matthews scholarship was dubious, while many Christians misinterpret this phenomena as "dual" prophecies. Remember the important rule about "PaRDeS", the extended meanings can never contradict the simple reading! I think Matthew knew what he was doing. By using "derash" he was trying to show that his messiah was the embodiment of Israel itself, in a metaphorical manner. Which brings me back to my original point in the very first post, if we interpret Isaiah 7 as "virgin", then there were 2 virgin births! Thank you all for bearing with me!

 

Technically, there are 36 (lamadvavniks) possible candidates for a messiah in each generation. They are also the reason God keeps the world from destruction.

 

Most Jewish commentators believe that these are 3 separate children...Rashi believes that they are 1 child and 1 like-son (Shear-Yashuv). You're also forgoing the fact that the Septuagint translated it as parthenos, and 70 Jewish religious leaders translated it as this. As I've said, in double prophecy, it's not contingent solely on the Hebrew, as it might have used documents that are now lost to time. It could have very well meant almah as a young girl, married, or a virgin. The Judaic-Greek translation says parthenos 200 years before Christ, so there can be.

 

1)no possibility of interpolations and

2) the possibility that Isaiah gave this to mean something, and that it was later interpreted by Jewish sources as a messianic prophecy.

 

Yet still, we don't know the mother of this savior (not even her name), or if it is Maher, and we are stuck on an infinite loop of it being what Rashi says contradicting the opinion of other rabbis. For each different face, there's a different opinion, I suppose.

 

If this person was "supposed" to be messiah, as Rashi interprets Isaiah, where is Isaiah's lineage to David? If it doesn't exist, there's a problem. If one wants to say "Immanuel is Maher" then one can see that Immanuel is a title, and cannot be his actual name. The part where I pointed out Rashi just states that it was to be taken as a messianic prophecy, and this has been taken into consideration by Jews as late as Rashi's time. You can assume that the idea that this is a messianic prophecy comes from before Rashi, because this, in a way, is adding to torah, which is a sin.

 

From this we know that at one point, Jews believed that the Messiah will be born of a virgin and have the title Immanuel.

 

Lastly, Rashi's interpretation can't the last answer on this. How did the angels know that Hezekiah, at his young age, will rip the treasures of beit hamikdash and give them as a peace offering to a king? Angels can only know so far ahead into the future...in the presence of the Most Holy, the praise him with song, they don't have time to question God while complimenting him on how wise he is. They don't know what comes in the far future, but what is heralded in the Court of Heaven (which any spiritual being can hear), according to the Zohar. Angels are robots, they carry out the will of God. They question too? Even Satan when God tests Job did not know that he would still worship God. According to Jerusalem Talmud, Satan and God meet every Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, so his suffering lasted a little more than 10 days, and Satan doesn't know the outcome of God testing Job. Another opinion according to Zohar is that they meet once a year.

 

We know that 10 days is at least the min, one year max.

Court of Heaven may only release rulings (or as little as, by some opinions) in advance of one year (or ten days).

Hezekiah was a child, so they couldn't have known his desecration of the temple

How could the angels have questioned God on something they don't know?

Angels question God when, before the hymns they sing to praise him or after calling him wise?

Satan would have not known Job's outcome for at least a year, which is why God tests Job to prove a point to Satan

 

You've delved in the topic a little too much, as I just stated that he alludes to knowledge that it (Immanuel) was a messianic prophecy...there are conflicting opinions about the rest.

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I didnt want to post this but....

"According to Jerusalem Talmud, God and Satan meet at every yomkippur and roshhashanah."

Does anyone here believe that?

 

Depending on the Jew, they do. Many Jews don't even study Jerusalem Talmud, and the ones that do complain that it's too hard to understand (which I can attest to, past 3 words I have difficulty). 

Even Christians to some extent, there is a conversation that takes place between Satan and God, when he exalts Job in front of Satan in Job 1:8. There is a meeting.

We don't know when it is...but according to Jewish tradition, Job's suffering began after rosh hashannah, and ended that year the evening before rosh hashannah, so around 353 days. fromyomkippur-rosh hashannah is one option (probably an older one), but the most common (from the religions texts ive read) is 1 year.

 

Anyway, it furthered my point that at most, spiritual beings (Angels by way of Satan, and demons, spirits) can only know less than one year in advance (not 365 days, but a Jewish year, either 353-383 days), and that the angels couldn't have questioned God on what they didn't know, since Hezekiah would have still been years away from becoming king, not to mention taking the gold off of the Holy Temple and give it away. 

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