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In the Name of God بسم الله

What Did Jesus Say On The Cross

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so any amount of convincing is probably beyond my reach.

 

Brother

 

Don't you think the Internet is a curse as much as a blessing?

 

How much happier we would all be if we didn't have to discuss religion with one another.

 

Don't you agree?

 

To me, it doesn't really matter what anyone believes.

 

As long as he is not an enemy of the "other religion". 

Or of the principle of justice.  

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Nobody can be totally certain about the Jesus, thats why opinions differ. It is not necessary a matter of blasphemy. In comparison with the Bible, the Quran has not got much to say about Jesus. Denying the crucifixion but not saying what happened on this important day.

 

The Quran says alot about the life and teachings of Jesus(may peace and blessings be upon him) which is the important part. 

 

Also, the fact that almost every denomination of Christianity disagree among each other (and even the books of the Bible contradict each other) as to the particular facts of the Crucifixion event proves that Christians don't know much about the death of Jesus(a.s) either. 

 

The Quran is not a history text book, it is a book of Guidance. So any facts which are not directly relevant to the Guidance toward the path of Allah(s.w.a) are not discussed. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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Hi Salam,

Quote from Post 70:
Then the Word is eternal, and by default is God.

Response: --- John 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Yes, we can agree to disagree, agreeably.
I know the teaching of the trinity the way it is presented and I have no argument with those who accept it as they understand it. --- However, when it comes to causing division, or when I am asked about it, then I like to go back to the earlier creation, and go with the “Three in heaven” in 1 John 5:7. --- I see the confrontation and conquest as being between Satan, who became the ‘adversary’ of God, --- and the Word, the Logos of God, who both came from that previous creation.

I have always said it was a faulty doctrine, --- but our salvation does not depend on doctrines, but on the truth of the Gospel.
Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one comes to the Father except through Me.” --- And He often said, “Follow Me.”

Now the Muslims don’t like to acknowledge Jesus as a sacrifice for sin, --- However, in the Quran it says, “Do your duty to God, and ‘obey me,’ God is my Lord and your Lord so worship Him. That is a Way that is straight.”

For Jesus to have said this, it would have been to the disciples, when He was on earth, but the fact that it is written twice in the Quran, --- as well as the Quran saying that, “Jesus was a Sign for all people,” --- then I believe it from both books.

I enjoy your explanations of language and words, and I learn from you, as well as from each genuine person that is seeking after God. --- Our eternal destiny does not depend on our knowledge, --- but our wisdom, depends on how we apply that knowledge, --- and how open we are to being Spiritually guided by the Holy Spirit of God.
 

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Hi Baqar,

Quote from Post 71:
Don't you think the Internet is a curse as much as a blessing?
How much happier we would all be if we didn't have to discuss religion with one another.
Don't you agree?
To me, it doesn't really matter what anyone believes.
As long as he is not an enemy of the "other religion".
Or of the principle of justice.

Response: --- I know you didn’t direct this to me but I think the internet is a great source of knowledge and reference for things we don’t know. --- However, we have to be wise in what we accept as believable.

As for the opportunity to discuss religion, I appreciate this forum.
If you prefer to discuss any other topic, then there are many other forums here, are there not?

Because there is a lack of understanding of one another, I believe this is a good step towards co-existence. --- We were never meant to join together (Surah 5:48), but we can study the Bible and the Quran to see where they are harmonious, and acknowledge that we have One God, who is Holy,

When you say, “It doesn’t really matter what anyone believes.”
--- That is the philosophy of the world, “As long as you are a good person.” --- But this is God’s world, so we have to come to Him His way, do we not?

I rather enjoy the topics you lead us into, like the Visions of Fatima.

You see, Baqar, we don’t have to be influenced by what others believe, and if you feel stable \in your own Faith, and don’t feel threatened by what others say, then you learn from them, or disregard what they are saying.
--- As the Quran says, --- “There is no compulsion in religion.” --- At least there shouldn’t be, should there?
 

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Could you explain what you mean?

 

Because God gave him rights to said authority. Not only that, but his lineage will in fact have the throne of Israel, as from his lineage, the Messiah will come.

God is not inferior to David. God's "lineage" is so because we anthropomorphize God. God isn't a human to have a "lineage", not a human to have a wife...Jesus is his "son" because humans cannot comprehend the holiness of God, nor his plan, so he gives them in simple terms so that it's easier to understand: we call that a Mystery. It's the same with a trinity, we cannot comprehend it, it's divinity is out of our reach.

 

It's a "mockery" because the sign emphasizes the point that the messiah would be a king.

Pardon my autocorrect typos, I certainly did not write romantic.

I meant to say that when you view Jesus as God, although he is called son of God in gospels, then you portray him as descending from skies to earth to save humans and as king who should be heir of David. ...well when you put it this way it creates a conflict with the Islamic understanding of God being a king.

Quran portrays him, Jesus, as human messenger to children of Israel. His mission was to war, fix and bring glad tidings. Quran say that the Jewish community, like any other human community, was prone to deviation due to opinions and imaginations. And so Jesus was one of many messengers who were sent to fix the wrong turns that communities took.

But Jesus was special, he is called the Messiah by the Quran, something that the Jewish community denies. Quran dose not tell us about the meaning nor the reason of calling him the Messiah but certainly Quran dose not associate that title with saving nor with kingship.

As far as I know, there are a number of messiahs in Judaism. Not all of them will be kings. The jews link the word messiah to kings using linguistic link between the word used to describe the application of oil upon the heads of kings and the title messiah.

Christians belive that messiah is saviour . It is one of the tasks of one of the awaited messiahs but has nothing to do with the word messiah itself.

Anyways...... a king wouldn't need to be mocked to prove his kingship.

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Brother

 

Don't you think the Internet is a curse as much as a blessing?

 

How much happier we would all be if we didn't have to discuss religion with one another.

 

Don't you agree?

 

To me, it doesn't really matter what anyone believes.

 

As long as he is not an enemy of the "other religion". 

Or of the principle of justice.  

 

It's through discussion we understand differences and similarities, through transfer of one message to another. I would not know that Islam is split into Sunni and Shia if it wasn't through discussion, and many would think that all Muslims are terrorists if it wasn't for discussion. There is a place for it; can you think of a better place than a interfaith dialogue board?

 

I believe that something can't be a curse and a blessing. If something is both, then it just is. What you do with it depends on your desires, it's a neutral medium: neither a curse nor blessing.

 

Yes, we can agree to disagree, agreeably.

I know the teaching of the trinity the way it is presented and I have no argument with those who accept it as they understand it. --- However, when it comes to causing division, or when I am asked about it, then I like to go back to the earlier creation, and go with the “Three in heaven” in 1 John 5:7. --- I see the confrontation and conquest as being between Satan, who became the ‘adversary’ of God, --- and the Word, the Logos of God, who both came from that previous creation.

I have always said it was a faulty doctrine, --- but our salvation does not depend on doctrines, but on the truth of the Gospel.

Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one comes to the Father except through Me.” --- And He often said, “Follow Me.”

 

 

The only non-trinitarian Christians I've come across are Jehovah Witnesses, so I wouldn't think the questions on trinitarianism would come from Christians (no more than a peep, in reality).

I affirm it's a mystery and it's holiness is uncompromisable to the human mind.

 

Pardon my autocorrect typos, I certainly did not write romantic.

I meant to say that when you view Jesus as God, although he is called son of God in gospels, then you portray him as descending from skies to earth to save humans and as king who should be heir of David. ...well when you put it this way it creates a conflict with the Islamic understanding of God being a king.

 

It's fine...I use the speech to text option on my computer and sometimes it drops whole words or uses punctuation oddly.

 

Yes, Jesus will come back on the Mount of Olives, and he will split it so that the east and west with go one north and one south and that's the starting point for the resurrection, emanating outwards. From there, he will establish the Kingdom of God on earth, prior being spiritual as the Body of Christ in the Church.

 

 

Quran portrays him, Jesus, as human messenger to children of Israel. His mission was to war, fix and bring glad tidings. Quran say that the Jewish community, like any other human community, was prone to deviation due to opinions and imaginations. And so Jesus was one of many messengers who were sent to fix the wrong turns that communities took.

But Jesus was special, he is called the Messiah by the Quran, something that the Jewish community denies. Quran dose not tell us about the meaning nor the reason of calling him the Messiah but certainly Quran dose not associate that title with saving nor with kingship.

As far as I know, there are a number of messiahs in Judaism. Not all of them will be kings. The jews link the word messiah to kings using linguistic link between the word used to describe the application of oil upon the heads of kings and the title messiah.

Christians belive that messiah is saviour . It is one of the tasks of one of the awaited messiahs but has nothing to do with the word messiah itself.

The concept of (Shia) Islamic salvation rests on Imam al-Hujjah, not Jesus. Whether he has been born or not is subject to debate, so I won't go into that.

The Islamic concept of Messiah (as Jesus) varies with each madhab (I see Sunni's especially talk about Jesus and his role as messiah) so that's also not something I want to go into.

 

There are only 3 messiahs in Judaism that I can think of (right now), and all of them have been/will be kings.

Which messiahs do you speak of, specifically?

 

Messiah does not equal the word for salvation. Jesus means God saves, messiah means oil, as the anointed, correct.

We believe it's been fulfilled, but we have yet to experience the second coming.

 

 

Anyways...... a king wouldn't need to be mocked to prove his kingship.

What I was getting at is that it proves the Messiah will be the king of the Jews. They wouldn't have put that on him if he didn't claim to be the messiah.

I did not mean that in some way he being mocked is a prophecy.

Edited by salamtek
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The Quran says alot about the life and teachings of Jesus(may peace and blessings be upon him) which is the important part. 

 

Also, the fact that almost every denomination of Christianity disagree among each other (and even the books of the Bible contradict each other) as to the particular facts of the Crucifixion event proves that Christians don't know much about the death of Jesus(a.s) either. 

 

The Quran is not a history text book, it is a book of Guidance. So any facts which are not directly relevant to the Guidance toward the path of Allah(s.w.a) are not discussed. 

I know the Quran say Jesus was born by a Virgin, that he could speak from the day he was born, that he created a bird from Clay, that they (who?) did not crucify him. Is this directly relevant to guidance? I am sure the Quran says something about Jesus message. Cant think of anything thou, but I am sure it is not very much. I suspect that Muslim knowledge of Jesus is very much derived the Bible.

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I know the Quran say Jesus was born by a Virgin, that he could speak from the day he was born, that he created a bird from Clay, that they (who?) did not crucify him. Is this directly relevant to guidance? I am sure the Quran says something about Jesus message. Cant think of anything thou, but I am sure it is not very much. I suspect that Muslim knowledge of Jesus is very much derived the Bible.

I think you didnt read the Quran.

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I am sure the Quran says something about Jesus message. Cant think of anything thou, 

 

Do you really believe that 

  • the Quran needed to mention the teachings of every individual prophet ? 
  • the teachings of any given prophet are  different from another ?

To both questions, the answer is NO.

 

The fact is that all prophets taught the same thing. 

 

If you notice any difference, it is because every prophet had a different set of situations to deal with.

 

For example, Jesus had to deal mostly with religious hypocrites who believed in God  while Abraham had to deal mostly with people who did not believe in one God but worshipped many gods.

 

Individual  approach and emphasis are naturally tailored to those circumstances. 

 I suspect that Muslim knowledge of Jesus is very much derived the Bible.

 

That can only pass muster if Islam is not a God given religion.

 

In other words, if you assume that Muhammad did not bring his teachings from God and are determined not to consider other options..

 

But if you allow for the possibility that his religion may have been given to him by God, then anything that may be similar to the Bible or to other scriptures can be explained by the fact that they can all directly or indirectly be sourced to the same God.

 

It all depends on whether you are prepared to give Islam and its Prophet the benefit of doubt.

 

In other words on your own mental approach.  

Edited by baqar
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I suspect that Muslim knowledge of Jesus is very much derived the Bible.

 

As a Christian, that is what you must believe.  After all, there is no good reason for you to accept that the Quran could have come from any other source.  But an honest critic would always accept the possibility even if it is inconvenient for him.

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I was reacting to Abu Hadi who said the Quran had a lot to say about Jesus. In my view, in comparison to the Bible, it has very little to say. Not only about Jesus but also the prophets. If all prophets were infallible and in possession of the "Injeel", of course it was not necessary to quote them all saying the same thing. With a few exceptions, the Quran is not a history book. Should the Quran indeed be an infallible message from God via Gabriel, Muhammed and the compilers, this would probably not change my view that the information about Jesus is very limited in the Quran. 

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Dear Salamtek,

 

I have small question. I have just started learning Aramaic.

I would like to know why the verse `Matthew 27: 46 in the english bible is corresponding to the verse number 1 in Psalm 22 ?

 

Thank you

Jesus references the Psalm, he's saying it so that they could know that he is the messiah. 

Many Christian bibles only come with the word, there is no tafsir anywhere. Luckily, I have a Catholic Bible, and they're known for including tafsirs in most of their Bibles. If by corresponds you mean reference, it is here. 

 

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Edited by salamtek
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