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In the Name of God بسم الله

What Did Jesus Say On The Cross

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Hi Salam and Andres,


(Andres had asked this question before and I didn’t get around to answering it then, but I will try now.)

Quote from Post 27:
Salam: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."
--- A direct prophecy of his name, it's not.
It refers to his title as "God is with us", since Jesus is God.
Quote from Post 30:
Andres: So what you are saying is that sometime in the future we will begin to call Jesus for Immanuel ?

Response: --- As you know, I have said over and over again that Jesus was not God.
Everyone acknowledges the two natures of Jesus, --- That He was human, being born of the virgin Mary, As Isaiah 7:14 says, “The virgin shall conceive.”

And also in both John 1:14, and Surah 3:45, it says that the Word came down from heaven and ‘indwelt’ the human body of Jesus.
The Word, speaking in Isaiah 48:16, said, “The Lord God and His Spirit have sent Me.”
Since, God, --- the Word (Logos), --- and the Holy Spirit are ‘Spiritual’ and can’t be seen by mankind, it says in Hebrews 10:
5 Therefore, when He (the Word) came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me— (Isaiah 48:16)
To do Your will, O God.’”

 

So the Body that God had prepared was the sinless body of Jesus. --- This should clarify that it was Jesus, a holy son. Born to the virgin Mary in Surah 19:
19 He (the angel) said: "Nay, I am only an apostle from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a ‘holy son.’
20 She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
21 He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We [God] wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."
--- This ‘holy son’ was to be a Sign unto mankind, --- and the Mercy (of deliverance and salvation) from Us (God).
--- “It is a matter so decreed,” (or decided upon, and enacted.)

So the Holy Son was Jesus, He was human from a human mother. and was called ‘the son of Mary.
--- But God brought Him into being as the body in which the Word would ‘indwell’ and live through. --- So Jesus was also CALLED the Son of God. Luke 1:35.

So the Word was from God, --- not only from Divinity, but because “All things (pertaining to this world) were created through Him, the Word (Logos),” --- He Was called ‘God,’ at the burning bush in Exodus 3, and in John 1:1 where it says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (God’s Manifestation or Representative at both the burning bush, and in John 1:1. and it says in 1:3 “All things were made through Him (the Word).”

--- Can you get the picture? --- Almighty God was the Great Creator, but He created all things pertaining to this world ‘through the Word.’
--- So now, this Divine One, was sent by God to be the Redeemer, the Messiah. --- Also He was the Eternal Son of God from the earlier creation of the Cherubim, --- And, in this appearance, as someone said, “Veiled in flesh,” --- that the Word, the Manifestation of God might be seen on earth.

--- This is to explain that Jesus was not in heaven before the Word came to earth, as the Trinitarians teach.. --- However, you can continue to believe that Jesus was God if you like, and maintain the mystery of Immanuel, but I will go on to show some other things in the Scriptures, so we can see what they might say, to solve the mystery.
--- Yes, Immanuel is more of a title than a name, and it means, “God with us,” or “God is with us.” Matthew 1:23.


--- So I will continue later with the meaning of the title and name in other verses.

Placid

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--- So I will continue later with the meaning of the title and name in other verses.

Placid

 

In Isaiah 9:6, the savior in 7:14 is said to have the following qualities (again, Qaraa shimo, not qara at shimo)

 

כי־ילד ילד־לנו בן נתן־לנו ותהי המשרה על־שכמו ויקרא שמו פלא יועץ אל גבור אביעד שר־שלום׃

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

so we have El Gibor being translated as Mighty God.

 

Judaism already gives God the time of "El Shaddai". El Gibor is a new construct, if it is even a name of God. However, to my knowledge, I've never heard a Jewish prayer use this as a title of God. El Shaddai is the most common name of God after YHWH, evidenced by the fact that mezuzot have the letter "Sh" for Shaddai on them. Gibor actually means 2 things, valiant and man. The root of the word valiant is the same for man, that is גבר- gibar. So does it mean Mighty God (which there already is a title for) or Mighty Man God (gibor also means hero) (who today we call Jesus)? What else can this mean? Either way it doesn't matter: Jesus fulfills this because he is God. The prophecy calls the messiah God the almighty...you might have misunderstood the prophecy.

 

Secondly, this cannot be the son of Ahaz.

 

Rashi, a Jewish scholar and prominent Rabbi states that

 

but Ahaz does not deserve it, moreover, the merit of the Patriarchs has terminated.  And our Rabbis said: The Holy One, blessed be He, wished to make Hezekiah the Messiah

 

So Rashi states that the prophecy is indeed about a Messiah. He then goes on to say about Hezekiah

 

Said the ministering angels before the Holy One, blessed be He, Should the one who stripped the doors of the Temple and sent them to the king of Assyria, be made Messiah? Immediately, Scripture closed it up.

And this definitely happened. Hezekiah made a truce and he couldn't afford to pay the conditions, so he took all the silver from the temple and the gold on the doors and gave them to Sennacherib, the Assyrian king. (2 Kn. 18:16).

 

Like I said no one knows who the child is or who the mother is. Isaiah 7:14 and 9:6 speak about the same person being born, the supposed messiah (according to Rashi) that will save Israel. Another proof that the Jews thought of this prophecy relating to the Messiah is that it's quoted in the NT.

 

If you would want to claim the NT writer made this prophecy up, that's for you to prove, because the evidence suggest this idea was common in second temple Judaism. However, you have Jewish rabbi to disprove, which is quite a task in and of itself.

 

Keep in mind the high priest asked Jesus if he was "the messiah, son of the Living God". Jesus answers yes when he says "you've said it" because then the high priest rips off his clothes and says he is a blasphemer and agrees with the crowd that they should kill him.

 

Therefore, he who is called God Man (or God almighty) will be born to the House of David, through Ahaz will be the messiah. Notice how Jesus is listed as the descendant of Ahaz, who is a descendant of David and is the only Jew ever to be called God.

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Jesus "spoke English" :lol: He didn't speak Aramaic either --although that is a popular myth. He would/did speak the Hebrew of his time. Or is he going to lecture in a language the Israelis don't know?

I always get a kick out of those who insist on Jesus linguistic limitations while their own Holy Quran says he could speak as an infant. 

Of course, if you're all wrapped up in hadith and other stuff rather than the Quran itself you're likely to miss a few things. 

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I always get a kick out of those who insist on Jesus linguistic limitations while their own Holy Quran says he could speak as an infant. 

Of course, if you're all wrapped up in hadith and other stuff rather than the Quran itself you're likely to miss a few things.

Actually our hadiths say that prophets knew all tongues and communicated with each nation by that nation tongue...

So 1+2= Jesus talked to Jewish priests by their own tongue.

Were they Aramaic, Hebrew or Greek?

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Where in the Quran or Bible does it say that Jesus title is "God with us" ??

 

And he will be called (by the people: ܘܢܩܪܘܢ from [ܢܩܪ] yeqar (read) and the ending [ܘܢ]-en (they)) by the name "God is with us" in Matthew 1:23.

Peter and the apostles (in different places) Mary etc.. even gentiles calls him the son of God (Mat. 27.54).

Since God has a son, that son is also God, but that's not because a human became man...but God became flesh.

 

 

Were they Aramaic, Hebrew or Greek?

They only read Hebrew, they didn't speak it amongst themselves. For proof of this, the Talmud has conversations by the Rabbi's in Aramaic, not Hebrew.. Jesus would speak a language the Jews only knew to read and write? Even when they stopped writing it for a while?

 

Secondly the Talmudic Aramaic (which I've noticed since I study talmud in my free time) that the rabbis used has a lot of Greek words in it in these conversations...while the actual word is present in Aramaic. This can only mean that the conversation actually had these words in them...that is, they spoke Aramaic which was influenced with Greek (no doubt from the presence of Hellenistic Judaism).

 

So 1+2= Jesus talked to Jewish priests by their own tongue.

You said it yourself, and the language was Aramaic.

 

The only verse in the Quran that shows how Jesus talked as a baby is addressed to a crowd of people...of Aramaic speaking Jews.

فأتت به قومها تحمله قالوا يا مر‌يم لقد جئت شيئا فر‌يا

and she came carrying him to her people, who said "O Mary, you brought something awful"

 

There's nothing (to my knowledge) in the Quran about Jesus speaking in the Temple to the priests in the temple...And even if there is, they spoke Aramaic, as evidenced by the Talmud. The Quran records the conversation in Arabic, so there's a discrepancy.

 

The Jews as a nation spoke Aramaic since around 700 years before Christ. They've only recently started speaking Hebrew, with the founding of Israel. Two prior languages have been Yiddish (European Jews, German, a relatively new language) and and Greek (also European, has an older root language of Ionic and Attic Greek, since 200 years before Christ). We have Jewish friends that ancestors (Grandmother and grandfather) spoke Aramaic. Jews have been speaking Hebrew only slightly longer than they have Aramaic: compare 2,700 years to 3,000 (which is ~5700 years, the current Jewish year is ~5750)

 

So Hebrew longer (than Aramaic)by 300 years,

Aramaic longer (by the next language, Greek) by around 500 years

and Greek longer (than Yiddish) by around a thousand.

Edited by salamtek
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Hi Salam,

Quote from Post 37:
Like I said no one knows who the child is or who the mother is. Isaiah 7:14 and 9:6 speak about the same person being born, the supposed messiah (according to Rashi) that will save Israel. Another proof that the Jews thought of this prophecy relating to the Messiah is that it's quoted in the NT.
Keep in mind the high priest asked Jesus if he was "the messiah, son of the Living God". Jesus answers yes when he says "you've said it" because then the high priest rips off his clothes and says he is a blasphemer and agrees with the crowd that they should kill him.
Therefore, he who is called God Man (or God almighty) will be born to the House of David, through Ahaz will be the messiah. Notice how Jesus is listed as the descendant of Ahaz, who is a descendant of David and is the only Jew ever to be called God.

Response: --- Everyone mentions the two natures of Jesus Christ, but until you see them as separate, you won’t understand what I am saying
If we go to Isaiah, the conversation is this, before the prophecy in 7:
10 Moreover the LORD spoke again to Ahaz, saying,
11 “Ask a sign for yourself from the LORD your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above.”
12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, nor will I test the LORD!”
13 Then he (Isaiah) said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also?
14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a Sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

Since Ahaz was not ready to take any responsibility that might have lead to victory for Israel, the Sign and prophecy was given for future generations, who would be delivered.

This fulfills the prophecy given to Abraham in Genesis 12 that says:
“In you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”

Again we read about the Son in Isaiah 9:
6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

So the Sign was given, ‘The virgin will conceive and bear a son, Immanuel, meaning God with us’

The Government shall be upon His shoulders --- (That wasn’t Jesus, was it?)
7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end,
--- This was the prophesy of the New Covenant, when the Gospel of the Kingdom of God was preached, --- that through Faith, and the indwelling Holy Spirit, God began His Kingdom in the hearts of men.

--- Jesus said this in Luke 17:
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation;
21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

And again it says in 1 Corinthians 3:
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

Remember what Jesus said to the Pharisees in John 2:
18 So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?”
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

So the body of believers is the ‘temple’ in which the Spirit of God dwells.
--- You mentioned the ‘building of the third temple’? --- This was it.

Next I want to examine the names in 9:6, and we will see that they are names of the Word, Immanuel, ‘God with us,’ --- who came down from heaven. --- and that they do not apply to Jesus, as the Son of Man.

Placid

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And he will be called (by the people: ܘܢܩܪܘܢ from [ܢܩܪ] yeqar (read) and the ending [ܘܢ]-en (they)) by the name "God is with us" in Matthew 1:23.

Peter and the apostles (in different places) Mary etc.. even gentiles calls him the son of God (Mat. 27.54).

Since God has a son, that son is also God, but that's not because a human became man...but God became flesh.

I never questioned that Jesus is called "Son og God".

Mat. 1:23 does not say Jesus was called "Immanuel", he say Jesus will be called "Immanuel". 2.000 years after Jesus birth this has still not happened. Could Mathew not be mistaken???

Edited by andres
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Hi Salam,

Quote from Post 37
Like I said no one knows who the child is or who the mother is. Isaiah 7:14 and 9:6 speak about the same person being born, the supposed messiah (according to Rashi) that will save Israel. Another proof that the Jews thought of this prophecy relating to the Messiah is that it's quoted in the NT.

Response: --- I would like to look at this again, and another prophecy, before going to the names in 9:6.

Ahaz was the king of Judah and was in danger of invasion from Syria and the northern kingdom of Israel, when Isaiah came in 7:13, and said, “Ask the Lord for a sign.” --- It could have been the intervention of God to defeat the enemy, but Ahaz said he did not want to tempt God.
Then Isaiah said in 14, “The Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son and shall call His name Immanuel.”
15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good.
16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.
17 The LORD will bring the king of Assyria upon you and your people and your father’s house

This Prophecy of destruction was fulfilled within about two years, --- during which was the birth of a child, but not from a virgin, as it says in Isaiah 8:
1 Moreover the LORD said to me, “Take a large scroll, and write on it with a man’s pen concerning Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz.
2 And I will take for Myself faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest and Zechariah.”
3 Then I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son. Then the LORD said to me, “Call his name Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz;
4 for before the child shall have knowledge to cry ‘My father’ and ‘My mother,’ the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be taken away before the king of Assyria.”

--- So notice the words of the prophecy in 7:16 “For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. --- (The king of Israel and the king of Judah, by the invasion of Assyria )

And in 8:4, For before the child shall have knowledge to cry ‘My father’ and ‘My mother,’ the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be taken away before the king of Assyria.”

--- So the child will not be able to talk, or to know good from evil, so perhaps a little over a year old, --- and he was given that name, Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz, --- a phrase which means, ‘the spoil speeds, the prey hastens,’ which refers to the invasion of Assyria. (The time from the prophecy given to Ahaz in 7:14 to the invasion from Assyria was about two years.)
It speaks of the first part of the invasion in 2 Chronicles 28:
6 For Pekah the son of Remaliah killed one hundred and twenty thousand in Judah in one day, all valiant men, because they had forsaken the LORD God of their fathers.

In Isaiah 8:8 it mentions the name Immanuel again, but not in relationship to a child, but to a nation:
7 The king of Assyria and all his glory; He will go up over all his channels And go over all his banks.
8 He will pass through Judah, He will overflow and pass over,
He will reach up to the neck; And the stretching out of his wings
Will fill the breadth of Your land, O Immanuel.

This speaks of the overrunning of Judah --- and considering it to be "Your land," the land of Immanuel, as though “The government was on His shoulder” Isaiah 9:6.
--- This was the first classification of the name 'Immanuel.'

Placid

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Everyone mentions the two natures of Jesus Christ, but until you see them as separate, you won’t understand what I am saying

 

Separating the two natures of Christ is blasphemy. 

 

 

Since Ahaz was not ready to take any responsibility that might have lead to victory for Israel, the Sign and prophecy was given for future generations, who would be delivered.

Hezekiah is out of the question for this verse, even Rashi says so. He can't be the savior of Israel when he himself became a vessel to Assyria.

 

 

The Government shall be upon His shoulders --- (That wasn’t Jesus, was it?)

Are you denying Jesus is the King of the Jews?

 

 

--- This was the prophesy of the New Covenant, when the Gospel of the Kingdom of God was preached, --- that through Faith, and the indwelling Holy Spirit, God began His Kingdom in the hearts of men.

So the body of believers is the ‘temple’ in which the Spirit of God dwells.

--- You mentioned the ‘building of the third temple’? --- This was it.

 

My point with the third temple is that Jews add to prophecy. The Second temple existed 40 years after Jesus and then was destroyed. Jesus predicts the third temples destruction, and his death, another example of a double prophecy. Not only that, but it took 50 days (pentekosti -50) for the holy spirit to come down, it was not 3.

Mat. 1:23 does not say Jesus was called "Immanuel", he say Jesus will be called "Immanuel". 2.000 years after Jesus birth this has still not happened. Could Mathew not be mistaken???

 

I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're not understanding, then. I've explained it twice, maybe you could elaborate?

 

Response: --- I would like to look at this again, and another prophecy, before going to the names in 9:6.

Ahaz was the king of Judah and was in danger of invasion from Syria and the northern kingdom of Israel, when Isaiah came in 7:13, and said, “Ask the Lord for a sign.” --- It could have been the intervention of God to defeat the enemy, but Ahaz said he did not want to tempt God.

This Prophecy of destruction was fulfilled within about two years, --- during which was the birth of a child, but not from a virgin, as it says in Isaiah 8:

--- So notice the words of the prophecy in 7:16 “For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. --- (The king of Israel and the king of Judah, by the invasion of Assyria )

And in 8:4, For before the child shall have knowledge to cry ‘My father’ and ‘My mother,’ the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be taken away before the king of Assyria.”

--- So the child will not be able to talk, or to know good from evil, so perhaps a little over a year old, --- and he was given that name, Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz, --- a phrase which means, ‘the spoil speeds, the prey hastens,’ which refers to the invasion of Assyria. (The time from the prophecy given to Ahaz in 7:14 to the invasion from Assyria was about two years.)

It speaks of the first part of the invasion in 2 Chronicles 28:

In Isaiah 8:8 it mentions the name Immanuel again, but not in relationship to a child, but to a nation:

This speaks of the overrunning of Judah --- and considering it to be "Your land," the land of Immanuel, as though “The government was on His shoulder” Isaiah 9:6.

--- This was the first classification of the name 'Immanuel.'

Placid

 

You're not getting what I mean when I say duel prophecy, are you? There are things that are foreshadowed, and taken to mean foreshadowed,

This prophecy is for the messiah, but he (Rashi) says that Hezekiah cannot be the messiah because he sold out Israel, so this prophecy was still in effect in the time of Christ, and the Pharesees did say "Are you Christ son of the Living God?" Just them saying "Christ, son of the Living God" is proof enough that the Pharisees believed that the Messiah would be the son of God, and thus would be called Immanuel. 

Edited by salamtek
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Hi Salam,

Quote from Post 48:
This prophecy is for the messiah, but he (Rashi) says that Hezekiah cannot be the messiah because he sold out Israel, so this prophecy was still in effect in the time of Christ,

Response: --- Hezekiah was the natural son of Ahaz, and would have been living before the prophecy in 7:14 was given, would he not?
And he did nothing worthy of being considered a redeemer of his people, did he?

However, in Isaiah 48:16, where I had said before, --- “The Lord God and His Spirit, have sent Me (the Word),” --- the next verse speaks as to the people:
17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer; The Holy One of Israel:
“I am the LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.

Here the Word identifies Himself as the Lord, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, --- the Lord, your God, --- who teaches you and leads you.

So if we move to the next name in Isaiah 9:6, it is, “Wonderful Counselor.” Which the Word was, in the various appearances.
--- As Melchizedek He taught the law to Abraham. Perhaps the basic commandments, even to tithing in Genesis 14,
From the ‘Burning bush’ He said to Moses, “I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,” --- When He told Moses to go before Pharaoh, and Moses was reluctant, --- the Angel of the Lord, the Word, said, “I will be with you.”
So all the miracles and signs, including the ten plagues would all be work of the Word (Logos, the creative power of God) so Moses was counseled in everything he did in the wilderness.

Once, when they were out of water, --- the Lord told Moses to strike the Rock, and water gushed forth.
--- There is an interesting reference to this in 1 Corinthians 10:
1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3 all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

So we have the name Christ the Messiah identified with the Word (Logos)
--- Trinitarians identify all of these OT experiences as being the ‘pre-incarnate Christ, and that is right, --- since the Word, Christ, eventually took that role,
But they don’t say, the ‘pre-incarnate Jesus,’ which would be erroneous because, the Word came down from heaven, and Jesus was born in a human body on earth, is that not right?

So the Word, Christ can be called the Wonderful Counselor, --- through history, as well as through Jesus on earth, later on.
--- The Lord, the Word, announced to Abraham that Sarah would have a son and that they would call him Isaac.

--- He announced the birth of another son in Judges 13:
2 Now there was a certain man from Zorah, of the family of the Danites, whose name was Manoah; and his wife was barren and had no children.
3 And the Angel of the LORD appeared to the woman and said to her, “Indeed now, you are barren and have borne no children, but you shall conceive and bear a son."
10 Then the woman ran in haste and told her husband, and said to him, “Look, the Man who came to me the other day has just now appeared to me!”
11 So Manoah arose and followed his wife. When he came to the Man, he said to Him, “Are You the Man who spoke to this woman?”
And He said, “I am.”
12 Manoah said, “Now let Your words come to pass! What will be the boy’s rule of life, and his work?” --- (So the Angel told them.)
15 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, “Please let us detain You, and we will prepare a young goat for You.”
16 And the Angel of the LORD said to Manoah, “Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the LORD.”
17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, “What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?”
18 And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is Wonderful?”

--- So here is a place where the same Angel of the Lord, the Word, who spoke to Moses from the burning bush, appeared to announce the birth of another boy, but through two parents.

So the name, Wonderful Counselor, can be the identification of Immanuel.

(Will continue later)

Placid

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This topic deserves its own thread! My reply will be there.

concerning??

 

 

No need to elaborate a lot. The virgin could be any virgin, many young girls become pregnant on first try. Furthermore Jesus was not called Immanuel. Mathew was wrong, in my opinion.

To have a first try is to lose virginity. He will be called Immanuel as a title. Jesus is the son of God. God is with us.

 

 

Hezekiah was the natural son of Ahaz, and would have been living before the prophecy in 7:14 was given, would he not?

And he did nothing worthy of being considered a redeemer of his people, did he?

No, Jewish sources state that the prophecy was supposed to be about Hezekiah, but then the prophecy changed. How is it that rashi said "Should the one who stripped the doors of the Temple and sent them to the king of Assyria, be made Messiah?". So we learn 2 things from this line; Hezekiah was supposed to be the Messiah, born of a woman who was young. It did not mean virgin until the prophecy was interpreted to mean virgin by the Jews, as evidenced in the septuagint. This is another example of double prophecy.

 

 

So all the miracles and signs, including the ten plagues would all be work of the Word (Logos, the creative power of God) so Moses was counseled in everything he did in the wilderness.

I don't agree or disagree as this stands, and this is detrimental to your argument. Clarify?

Edited by salamtek
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Salamtek your just being academically dishonest. It is a historical fact Jesus said those words. You cannot deny historic findings.

How about this, send your findings to top scholarly schools in Europe and the US and post their responses here.

Edited by PureEthics
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Salamtek your just being academically dishonest. It is a historical fact Jesus said those words. You cannot deny historic findings.

How about this, send your findings to top scholarly schools in Europe and the US and post their responses here.

 

You're wrong because I'm showing how ridiculous the argument that Muslims have been given against Christianity.

I haven't met a Christian who didn't know what Jesus meant that God has left him. In which case, the Arian and the Nestorian argument could still apply and Jesus would still be God. You didn't even read anything I posted and decided to comment (otherwise you wouldn't have wrote this), because I didn't deny Jesus said anything, nor did I deny anything historic. Either you're lying, or you're ignorant.

 

They've already been "posted", this is the position of the Catholic and Orthodox churches for the past 2,000 years. You have a problem with it, this is why you're a Muslim. Don't think that I've come up with all of this myself, it's been taught over 2 millennia.

 

Lastly your tone is abhorrent. Respond back with better اسلوب, pure"ethics", and stop attacking me and start attacking the argument. If you can't don't resort to ad hominem.

You make a claim that is against my claim.

You prove it

THEN you claim I'm academically dishonest.

 

You have no argument. Put one up or if you wish to speak, do so without attacking me.

 

 

Salamtek, Jesus "title" is not "Immanuel". Cant forbid you to believe it is.

Since it's the holiday's, I'll just leave this here.

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You're wrong because I'm showing how ridiculous the argument that Muslims have been given against Christianity.

I haven't met a Christian who didn't know what Jesus meant that God has left him. In which case, the Arian and the Nestorian argument could still apply and Jesus would still be God. You didn't even read anything I posted and decided to comment (otherwise you wouldn't have wrote this), because I didn't deny Jesus said anything, nor did I deny anything historic. Either you're lying, or you're ignorant.

 

They've already been "posted", this is the position of the Catholic and Orthodox churches for the past 2,000 years. You have a problem with it, this is why you're a Muslim. Don't think that I've come up with all of this myself, it's been taught over 2 millennia.

 

Lastly your tone is abhorrent. Respond back with better اسلوب, pure"ethics", and stop attacking me and start attacking the argument. If you can't don't resort to ad hominem.

You make a claim that is against my claim.

You prove it

THEN you claim I'm academically dishonest.

 

You have no argument. Put one up or if you wish to speak, do so without attacking me.

 

Since it's the holiday's, I'll just leave this here.

 

I never attacked your character to prove my point. You dont know what an Ad Hominem is. I read your post, you are trying to say it is not what Jesus said on the cross and everyone has "interpreted" wrongly. I said it was academic dishonesty because your understanding ie translation is wrong, because according to scholars who understand the language, have looked at the historical test and artifact, it is not what Jesus said. All you need to do, is a quick google search on academic sources. You insult my tone? Have you read yours? All your doing is speaking jargon buddy. You start the argument with the idea that you are correct and no one else is, just because, and you throw around words in regards to refuting someone, with absolutely no context, "your wrong because contradiction because your wrong. Your a liar or ignorant. Come back with intellect", sort of language. I dont feel the need of trying to refute you, for one, you would disregard what I say and claim I am wrong, and two, this is besides the point, that you believe man to be a god or son of god  or 3 parts to god, which has far greater flaws then this topic.

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I never attacked your character to prove my point. You dont know what an Ad Hominem is.

Yes, it's an attack to the person instead of the argument, which is what you did.

 

 

I read your post, you are trying to say it is not what Jesus said on the cross and everyone has "interpreted" wrongly.

No, I said that Jesus said it on the cross and listed the correct interpretation of it.

 

 

I said it was academic dishonesty because your understanding ie translation is wrong, because according to scholars who understand the language, have looked at the historical test and artifact, it is not what Jesus said.

I claimed Jesus said this, and was referring to Psalm 22. He did not say it independently, I said this constantly while I was talking with CM.

 

 

All you need to do, is a quick google search on academic sources.

x (Protestant)

x (Catholic)

x (Orthodox)

 

I'm saying the same thing they're saying.

 

 

You insult my tone? Have you read yours? All your doing is speaking jargon buddy. You start the argument with the idea that you are correct and no one else is,

Don't call me buddy, I have better things to be called then by a person with poor manners "buddy".

 

Because this is what the Church has taught since Christ's time. When Muslims interpret it to mean that God wasn't Jesus, they're arugment

1) STILL does not disqualify Jesus as God.

2) rests solely on misinterpretation.

 

 

just because, and you throw around words in regards to refuting someone, with absolutely no context

 

What are you talking about?

 

 

, "your wrong because contradiction because your wrong", sort of language. I dont feel the need of trying to refute you, for one, you would disregard what I say and claim I am wrong,

You're right, I would because you've taken an interpretation out of context.

It's like me saying "Kill all those who are kuffar" in Quran، and then point out "لقد كفر الذين قالوا إن الله هو المسيح ابن مريم". You completely miss what I meant, not only that, but this had lead to how many Christians being killed by terrorists these past couple of decades?

Read within context. I can even post a page out of the bible that shows the reference to Psalm 22.

 

 

and two, this is besides the point, that you believe man to be a god or son of god  or 3 parts to god, which has far greater flaws then this topic.

We don't believe a man to have been God, but God to have been man. To the 3 parts, they're not parts, but persons.

Wow, there's that condescending tone again...

This just goes to show you're ignorance of Christianity.

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Hi Salam,

To continue from Post 49:

To add the names of the coming Messiah from Isaiah 9:6 --- I had covered, “The government shall be upon His shoulder,” and “He shall be called Wonderful Counselor,” --- Some Bibles have a comma between Wonderful and counselor, but they refer to the same heavenly One.

Salam,
You had asked about Moses receiving guidance in everything that he did before Pharaoh and in the wilderness, --- and the same “Angel of the Lord,” that spoke to him from the burning bush, said He would be with Moses, --- so He would give the guidance, would He not?

Moses admitted his weakness and wouldn’t have gone back to Egypt except that the Lord guided him. --- And that “Angel of the Lord” was identified as the Word, --- who would have performed the miracles in Egypt, would He not?.
--- As “All things were created through Him, (the Word),” --- then the miracles in the wilderness were by Him as well.


Now I want to go to the next name, --- Mighty God (whose government is on His shoulder.)

The whole plan of redemption was engineered in heaven, --- and the Word, --- identified as Christ, the Messiah on earth, continued to destroy the enemies of Almighty God.
--- And here is where Christ shows His subjection to God. In 1 Corinthians 15:
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He (Christ) must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then Christ, Himself, will also be subject to Him (Almighty God) who put all things under Him, --- THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.


--- Everlasting Father, --- The Word was in the beginning with God, and He said in Isaiah 48:12, “I am the First and I am the Last.” In another place He said, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last.” --- So He was ‘Everlasting,’ --- and since it says in John 1:3, “All things were made through Him, and without Him was nothing made, that was made,” --- then He could be identified as the ‘Father of creation,’ --- So, the ‘Everlasting Father of creation.’

You see, If Jesus was born on earth, He was not everlasting, although He is eternal from His birth on,
Nor was the Government upon His shoulders, --- Jesus never sat on the throne of His father David, --- nor could He be called, ‘Mighty God.’

However, He could share the identification of the last name, ‘Prince of Peace.’ --- Jesus taught, Faith, Hope, and Love, and His Apostles who carried the Gospel far and wide were non-violent. --- So this is the true nature of the Gospel.

I had identified before that the Word came from the order of angels called the Cherubim, who were called “Sons of God,” --- and the Word became the new Leader, the Anointed Cherub, after Satan was cast out.
--- So the Word was the Eternal and begotten Son of God, who was chosen from among others, and is called ‘God’ here and in Hebrews 1. --- Here in Psalm 45:
6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.

This appears confusing, but I understand that Almighty God had appointed the new Leader from the ‘Angels’ that qualified, for the position, so the Word was chosen from among others, and I will show one more Scripture below.

--- There is no case in which Jesus was chosen from among others, is there? Jesus was CALLED the Son of God in Luke 1:35 and He was the begotten son of Mary. He referred to Himself mainly by the name, Son of Man.

I know you may not accept this, but I will show some other Scriptures later that call Jesus the Servant of God.

In John 1:18 some versions say, ‘only begotten Son,’ with a footnote that says, ‘only begotten God,’ --- other versions say, ‘only begotten God,’ with a footnote saying, ‘only begotten Son.’
The Greek interlinear NT says in John 1:
18 God no man has seen never; (the) only begotten God the (one) being in the bosom of the Father, that one declared (him).

So there are these places where the Word from verse 1 and here in 18, are called God, but it is understood that this does not mean, Almighty God, --- or One equal with God, but one appointed by Almighty God, and called God in the world.

Placid

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This thread proves my point. You have three Christians on this thread with three different views about who was Jesus(a.s). Complete with one calling the other a blasphemer. The more you discuss, the more you prove the point that Holy Quran was and is necessary in order to clarify who Jesus(a.s) actually was and who he wasn't. 

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Actually our hadiths say that prophets knew all tongues and communicated with each nation by that nation tongue...

So 1+2= Jesus talked to Jewish priests by their own tongue.

Were they Aramaic, Hebrew or Greek?

I believe all Prophets were guided by a spirit from God that know the languages of earth and Heaven, and many times the spirit did the talking. In the case of Jesus, what the Spirit spoke was often over the heads of the Jews, so it was never a language issue but a lack of ability to comprehend. Language wasn't an issue for Jesus.

 

The issue is apparently ours. 

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Hi Salam,

I have made reference to the names in Isaiah 9:6, that were given to ‘Immanuel,’ --- the name given in Isaiah 7:14.

Matthew wrote his Gospel account for the Jews, so he showed the fulfillment of these prophecies in Matthew 1:
20 behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary (for) your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”

So the name Jesus means Savior. --- Jesus was never called Immanuel.

22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

The name of the Word, who came from heaven to indwell Jesus was called ‘Immanuel’, --- meaning “God with us.”
The Word was CALLED God, in John 1:1, and 18, and all the names in Isaiah 9:6 pertain to 'Immanuel,' who was the Manifestation of God in their midst.

All through the Gospels the name is, ‘Jesus Christ,’ because Jesus was the visible Messenger of God. --- So glory was given to Jesus for the wisdom and miracles of healing and deliverance that He demonstrated among the people.

In Acts 1, Jesus ascends to heaven in the sight of the Apostles and others. --- Then on the Day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit comes upon the Apostles and the other believers who were with them in the upper room, where it happened..

Now here is what I want you to see. --- It says in Acts 2:
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
--- They first spoke in the languages of the listeners, but in the languages in which they were born, verses 5-12.

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you,

So Peter preaches a long message telling about how the coming of Jesus fulfilled the prophecies, --- but the emphasis begins to change from the focus on Jesus. --- Peter is later speaking by the Holy Spirit, and says in Acts 3:
13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.

This is the first place that it refers to Jesus as God’s Servant.
--- Then again it says this in:
25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’
26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

A few days later, after the Pharisee tried to stop them from preaching about Jesus, and had put Peter and John in Jail overnight, and released them, the Apostles returned, and again speaking by the Holy Spirit said in Acts 4:
23 And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them.
24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them,
27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together
29 Now, Lord, --- grant that with all boldness they may speak Your word,
30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”
31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

--- So, you see, after Jesus had ascended and His ministry was transferred to the 11 Apostles, plus many who willingly joined them, --- They would pray in the name of Jesus who was the Savior for those who believed, --- but the name was changed to Christ Jesus, and the emphasis was on Christ.

I will conclude this in the next post.

Placid

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This thread proves my point. You have three Christians on this thread with three different views about who was Jesus(a.s). Complete with one calling the other a blasphemer. The more you discuss, the more you prove the point that Holy Quran was and is necessary in order to clarify who Jesus(a.s) actually was and who he wasn't.

Nobody can be totally certain about the Jesus, thats why opinions differ. It is not necessary a matter of blasphemy. In comparison with the Bible, the Quran has not got much to say about Jesus. Denying the crucifixion but not saying what happened on this important day.
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Hi Salam,

I want to continue from Post 60:
--- So, in the Acts of the Apostles, they kept preaching in the name of Jesus, because of the sacrifice, and the Resurrection. --- But the teaching was done from here on, using the name Christ Jesus, --- with the main emphasis on Christ.

For instance, Paul starts the Book of Colossians with his greeting in the name of Jesus Christ, and says this in Colossians 1:
3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; --- (Then it changes again.)

7 “As you also learned from Epaphras, our dear fellow servant, who is a faithful minister of Christ.”

It goes on to speak of the preeminence of Christ in all things, which is the great misunderstanding that found its way into Christian doctrine. --- The Trinitarians believe everything refers to Jesus, but after Jesus ascended to His new position in heaven, --- it is all about Christ

--- I have said that the Word was the Eternal Son of God from the Cherubim angels which were called, ‘Sons of God,’ --- who existed before the foundation of our world, which John speaks about in John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
3 All things were made through Him (the Word).

--- And I made the connection that the Word refers to the Messiah, the Christ. --- Also, the Word was the ‘begotten Son of God,’ as well as the ‘Son of His love’ --- as it is expressed in the next verses in Colossians 1:
12 “Giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.
13 He (God) has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the 'Son of His love,'
14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
--- (The Word was indwelling the fleshly body of Jesus until His death, so it is written ‘the blood of Christ’ as well as ‘the blood of Jesus.’ --- But Christ didn’t die, only Jesus died, yet it had to be the sacrifice of the Christ through a human body that could shed blood, --- to be the final and perfect sacrifice for sin.)

God’s word said, “Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission,” --- and it says this about the Sacrifice in Isaiah 53:
10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered, He will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge My righteous Servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

--- So, after the Sacrifice which ‘satisfied the requirements of God’s law,’ --- then it speaks of who the Word is:
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
--- (The Word came into existence through God’s creation of the Cherubim angels, and was chosen from others as the Leader of the Cherubim, as well as the One given this ‘preeminence.’)

16 For through Him (the Word) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
18 And He is the head of the body, the church.

Again in verse 24 it refers to Christ as the head of the Church, --- and it speaks of the mystery of the Church:
26 The mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people.
27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

On the Day of Pentecost, they were filled with the same Holy Spirit that had been in Jesus, and the Holy Spirit represented Christ within. --- This mystery is easily understood by the fact that Jesus was in a physical human body, and was AMONG them, but could not be IN THEM. --- So ‘the mystery revealed,’ was that all the fullness of Christ was IN THEM, through the Holy Spirit. John 14:15-17,

--- So we can understand this easily, --- Jesus was physical, and could not be in some other body, but the Holy Spirit is Spiritual, who represents Christ in true believers, who acknowledge Jesus as their Savior, because Jesus was God’s Messenger and Representative to Mankind, to introduce the Gospel, --- God’s salvation through Faith.

Sorry, there is more, which I will add later.

Placid

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Hi Salam,

To continue, I want to go to Hebrews where it speaks of the Word as ‘the Begotten Son of God,’ through whom all things were created.

Some things to observe. --- This book was written to the Jews, and written by one who knew the Laws and prophecies of the OT. --- It is not written about Jesus, nor is His name mentioned in Hebrews 1, where it glorifies the Eternal Son.
--- As I have said, the Word (Logos) played different roles through the OT and one name that began from the 'appearance' to Joshua in 5:14 of ‘the Commander of the army of the Lord,’ was the title ‘Lord of hosts.’
--- The Lord of hosts ‘transitioned’ to Christ, the Messiah, who was ‘the Word, which 'indwelt' the body of Jesus, Malachi 3:1.

Now let’s compare some things from Colossians 1 to Hebrews where it speaks about Christ

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Col 1, (where the emphasis is on Christ,) and where He is called, “The Son of His love,” in verse 13, --- And it goes on from there to give preeminence to Christ:
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him,
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth,

3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person,
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

--- and upholding all things by the word of His power,
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

--- when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Col 1:20 having made peace through the blood of His cross.

4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
--- Notice: --- This Son was ‘above the angels.’

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? --- Psalm 2:7

8 But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions

Also from Psalm 45: --- (Written about 1000 years before Jesus was born)
6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.

Notice: --- He is called God, as He was in John 1:1, and 18, (only begotten God.)
Notice also: --- There was no place where Jesus was chosen from among ‘companions,’ --- as the Word was, in becoming the new Leader, or ‘anointed One’ of the Cherubim.

13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:
“Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”? --- Psalm 110:1

This is explained in 1 Corinthians 15:
24 Then comes the end, when He (Christ) delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
27 For “He (God) has put all things under His (Christ’s) feet.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him (Christ), then He, Himself, will also be subject to Him (God) who put all things under Him, --- THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.


And finally, the name of Jesus is used only once in this profound statement in Hebrews 2:
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

Jesus was crowned with honor and glory and became the High Priest of heaven, “After the order of Melchizedek,” Hebrews 5:6.

So you can see the distinction: The Eternal Son, the Word that came down from heaven was ‘above the angels.’

And Jesus was born on earth, ‘made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death,’ --- so Jesus had to be human.

Salvation is by Faith, and submission, to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, not by Church doctrine, so our view on the “Three in Heaven,” --- 1 John 5:7 may differ --- but I thank you for your patience, to see it from this perspective of the Scriptures.

Placid

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Hi Salam,

To continue from Post 49:

To add the names of the coming Messiah from Isaiah 9:6 --- I had covered, “The government shall be upon His shoulder,” and “He shall be called Wonderful Counselor,” --- Some Bibles have a comma between Wonderful and counselor, but they refer to the same heavenly One.

Salam,

You had asked about Moses receiving guidance in everything that he did before Pharaoh and in the wilderness, --- and the same “Angel of the Lord,” that spoke to him from the burning bush, said He would be with Moses, --- so He would give the guidance, would He not?

Moses admitted his weakness and wouldn’t have gone back to Egypt except that the Lord guided him. --- And that “Angel of the Lord” was identified as the Word, --- who would have performed the miracles in Egypt, would He not?.

--- As “All things were created through Him, (the Word),” --- then the miracles in the wilderness were by Him as well.

 

There's no guarantee Jesus was the angel in the burning bush. Where do you find your sources that the Logos was speaking? The torah says Moses was too afraid to look into the fire, and that YHVH spoke.

 

 

Now I want to go to the next name, --- Mighty God (whose government is on His shoulder.)

The whole plan of redemption was engineered in heaven, --- and the Word, --- identified as Christ, the Messiah on earth, continued to destroy the enemies of Almighty God.

--- And here is where Christ shows His subjection to God. In 1 Corinthians 15:

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

25 For He (Christ) must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.

26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then Christ, Himself, will also be subject to Him (Almighty God) who put all things under Him, --- THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.

--- Everlasting Father, --- The Word was in the beginning with God, and He said in Isaiah 48:12, “I am the First and I am the Last.” In another place He said, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last.” --- So He was ‘Everlasting,’ --- and since it says in John 1:3, “All things were made through Him, and without Him was nothing made, that was made,” --- then He could be identified as the ‘Father of creation,’ --- So, the ‘Everlasting Father of creation.’

You see, If Jesus was born on earth, He was not everlasting, although He is eternal from His birth on,

Nor was the Government upon His shoulders, --- Jesus never sat on the throne of His father David, --- nor could He be called, ‘Mighty God.’

However, He could share the identification of the last name, ‘Prince of Peace.’ --- Jesus taught, Faith, Hope, and Love, and His Apostles who carried the Gospel far and wide were non-violent. --- So this is the true nature of the Gospel.

I had identified before that the Word came from the order of angels called the Cherubim, who were called “Sons of God,” --- and the Word became the new Leader, the Anointed Cherub, after Satan was cast out.

--- So the Word was the Eternal and begotten Son of God, who was chosen from among others, and is called ‘God’ here and in Hebrews 1. --- Here in Psalm 45:

6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;

A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;

Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You

With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.

 

Jesus was God on earth, not human turned into God. He is also descended of King David, so is called "King of the Jews". During his crucifixion it was written atop him "Jesus the Nazarene, King of the Jews". So he was a king, so you can't say in the next breathe "the government is not on his shoulders".

 

 

This appears confusing, but I understand that Almighty God had appointed the new Leader from the ‘Angels’ that qualified, for the position, so the Word was chosen from among others, and I will show one more Scripture below.

--- There is no case in which Jesus was chosen from among others, is there? Jesus was CALLED the Son of God in Luke 1:35 and He was the begotten son of Mary. He referred to Himself mainly by the name, Son of Man.

I know you may not accept this, but I will show some other Scriptures later that call Jesus the Servant of God.

In John 1:18 some versions say, ‘only begotten Son,’ with a footnote that says, ‘only begotten God,’ --- other versions say, ‘only begotten God,’ with a footnote saying, ‘only begotten Son.’

The Greek interlinear NT says in John 1:

18 God no man has seen never; (the) only begotten God the (one) being in the bosom of the Father, that one declared (him).

So there are these places where the Word from verse 1 and here in 18, are called God, but it is understood that this does not mean, Almighty God, --- or One equal with God, but one appointed by Almighty God, and called God in the world.

Placid

 

If you accept Jesus as your savior, how are you reconciling this with Isaiah 43:11, that there is no savior but God?

Hi Salam,

I have made reference to the names in Isaiah 9:6, that were given to ‘Immanuel,’ --- the name given in Isaiah 7:14.

Matthew wrote his Gospel account for the Jews, so he showed the fulfillment of these prophecies in Matthew 1:

20 behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary (for) your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”

So the name Jesus means Savior. --- Jesus was never called Immanuel.

22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:

23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

The name of the Word, who came from heaven to indwell Jesus was called ‘Immanuel’, --- meaning “God with us.”

The Word was CALLED God, in John 1:1, and 18, and all the names in Isaiah 9:6 pertain to 'Immanuel,' who was the Manifestation of God in their midst.

All through the Gospels the name is, ‘Jesus Christ,’ because Jesus was the visible Messenger of God. --- So glory was given to Jesus for the wisdom and miracles of healing and deliverance that He demonstrated among the people.

In Acts 1, Jesus ascends to heaven in the sight of the Apostles and others. --- Then on the Day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit comes upon the Apostles and the other believers who were with them in the upper room, where it happened..

Now here is what I want you to see. --- It says in Acts 2:

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

--- They first spoke in the languages of the listeners, but in the languages in which they were born, verses 5-12.

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you,

So Peter preaches a long message telling about how the coming of Jesus fulfilled the prophecies, --- but the emphasis begins to change from the focus on Jesus. --- Peter is later speaking by the Holy Spirit, and says in Acts 3:

13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.

This is the first place that it refers to Jesus as God’s Servant.

--- Then again it says this in:

25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’

26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

A few days later, after the Pharisee tried to stop them from preaching about Jesus, and had put Peter and John in Jail overnight, and released them, the Apostles returned, and again speaking by the Holy Spirit said in Acts 4:

23 And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them.

24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them,

27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together

29 Now, Lord, --- grant that with all boldness they may speak Your word,

30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”

31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

--- So, you see, after Jesus had ascended and His ministry was transferred to the 11 Apostles, plus many who willingly joined them, --- They would pray in the name of Jesus who was the Savior for those who believed, --- but the name was changed to Christ Jesus, and the emphasis was on Christ.

I will conclude this in the next post.

Placid

Jesus' name means God Saves, not directly "savior". Je=ye=saves hoshua=saves, but in Aramaic it's eesho, written yod-shin-wow-ayin, instead of yod-he-wow-shin-ayin. Even rabbi's that diagree that the person being spoken of in Isaiah as "Immanuel" was called later "maher"baz". This only proves my point that Immanuel was a title.

Hi Salam,

I want to continue from Post 60:

--- So, in the Acts of the Apostles, they kept preaching in the name of Jesus, because of the sacrifice, and the Resurrection. --- But the teaching was done from here on, using the name Christ Jesus, --- with the main emphasis on Christ.

For instance, Paul starts the Book of Colossians with his greeting in the name of Jesus Christ, and says this in Colossians 1:

3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; --- (Then it changes again.)

7 “As you also learned from Epaphras, our dear fellow servant, who is a faithful minister of Christ.”

It goes on to speak of the preeminence of Christ in all things, which is the great misunderstanding that found its way into Christian doctrine. --- The Trinitarians believe everything refers to Jesus, but after Jesus ascended to His new position in heaven, --- it is all about Christ

--- I have said that the Word was the Eternal Son of God from the Cherubim angels which were called, ‘Sons of God,’ --- who existed before the foundation of our world, which John speaks about in John 1:

1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

3 All things were made through Him (the Word).

--- And I made the connection that the Word refers to the Messiah, the Christ. --- Also, the Word was the ‘begotten Son of God,’ as well as the ‘Son of His love’ --- as it is expressed in the next verses in Colossians 1:

12 “Giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.

13 He (God) has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the 'Son of His love,'

14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

--- (The Word was indwelling the fleshly body of Jesus until His death, so it is written ‘the blood of Christ’ as well as ‘the blood of Jesus.’ --- But Christ didn’t die, only Jesus died, yet it had to be the sacrifice of the Christ through a human body that could shed blood, --- to be the final and perfect sacrifice for sin.)

God’s word said, “Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission,” --- and it says this about the Sacrifice in Isaiah 53:

10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,

and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin,

he will see his offspring and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After he has suffered, He will see the light of life and be satisfied;

by his knowledge My righteous Servant will justify many,

and he will bear their iniquities.

--- So, after the Sacrifice which ‘satisfied the requirements of God’s law,’ --- then it speaks of who the Word is:

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

--- (The Word came into existence through God’s creation of the Cherubim angels, and was chosen from others as the Leader of the Cherubim, as well as the One given this ‘preeminence.’)

16 For through Him (the Word) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

18 And He is the head of the body, the church.

Again in verse 24 it refers to Christ as the head of the Church, --- and it speaks of the mystery of the Church:

26 The mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people.

27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

On the Day of Pentecost, they were filled with the same Holy Spirit that had been in Jesus, and the Holy Spirit represented Christ within. --- This mystery is easily understood by the fact that Jesus was in a physical human body, and was AMONG them, but could not be IN THEM. --- So ‘the mystery revealed,’ was that all the fullness of Christ was IN THEM, through the Holy Spirit. John 14:15-17,

--- So we can understand this easily, --- Jesus was physical, and could not be in some other body, but the Holy Spirit is Spiritual, who represents Christ in true believers, who acknowledge Jesus as their Savior, because Jesus was God’s Messenger and Representative to Mankind, to introduce the Gospel, --- God’s salvation through Faith.

Sorry, there is more, which I will add later.

Placid

Jesus was as physical as he was spiritual. He is fully human and fully God.

Hi Salam,

To continue, I want to go to Hebrews where it speaks of the Word as ‘the Begotten Son of God,’ through whom all things were created.

Some things to observe. --- This book was written to the Jews, and written by one who knew the Laws and prophecies of the OT. --- It is not written about Jesus, nor is His name mentioned in Hebrews 1, where it glorifies the Eternal Son.

--- As I have said, the Word (Logos) played different roles through the OT and one name that began from the 'appearance' to Joshua in 5:14 of ‘the Commander of the army of the Lord,’ was the title ‘Lord of hosts.’

--- The Lord of hosts ‘transitioned’ to Christ, the Messiah, who was ‘the Word, which 'indwelt' the body of Jesus, Malachi 3:1.

Now let’s compare some things from Colossians 1 to Hebrews where it speaks about Christ

Notice: --- He is called God, as He was in John 1:1, and 18, (only begotten God.)

Notice also: --- There was no place where Jesus was chosen from among ‘companions,’ --- as the Word was, in becoming the new Leader, or ‘anointed One’ of the Cherubim.

And finally, the name of Jesus is used only once in this profound statement in Hebrews 2:

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

Jesus was crowned with honor and glory and became the High Priest of heaven, “After the order of Melchizedek,” Hebrews 5:6.

So you can see the distinction: The Eternal Son, the Word that came down from heaven was ‘above the angels.’

And Jesus was born on earth, ‘made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death,’ --- so Jesus had to be human.

Salvation is by Faith, and submission, to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, not by Church doctrine, so our view on the “Three in Heaven,” --- 1 John 5:7 may differ --- but I thank you for your patience, to see it from this perspective of the Scriptures.

Placid

 

If Jesus wasn't human he couldn't suffer. If he wasn't God, he couldn't bring people back to life, nor would God have said "This is my Son" to a crowd of witnesses.

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Jesus was God on earth, not human turned into God. He is also descended of King David, so is called "King of the Jews". During his crucifixion it was written atop him "Jesus the Nazarene, King of the Jews". So he was a king, so you can't say in the next breathe "the government is not on his shoulders".

God is descended of King David?

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a) Since Jesus was legally Joseph's son in the kingly line, Jesus was and is legally entitled to the throne of David.

b] Not only that, but Mary is Joseph's far relative, so the kingly line would still be in Jesus' lineage.

c) King Jeconiah (from Joseph's side) would invalidate his right to rule.

 

God is descended of King David?

 

God on earth, not human turned into God

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a) Since Jesus was legally Joseph's son in the kingly line, Jesus was and is legally entitled to the throne of David.

b] Not only that, but Mary is Joseph's far relative, so the kingly line would still be in Jesus' lineage.

c) King Jeconiah (from Joseph's side) would invalidate his right to rule.

God is King of kings , He owns it all, the whole universe and beyond. He owns your soul, your money and your kids. Why would such a Lord need trick to show that He is romantic much lesser king line like the line of David?

Is the lineage of God inferior to the lineage of David? Dose god have less authority on the land of Judah and David has more rights and authority?

What was written on the cross was part of the mockery of the jews . It is not like that cross came down from heaven.

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Hi Salam,

Quote from Post 64:
There's no guarantee Jesus was the angel in the burning bush. Where do you find your sources that the Logos was speaking? The torah says Moses was too afraid to look into the fire, and that YHVH spoke.

Response: --- The event of the burning bush in Exodus 3 was about 1490 years before Jesus was born on earth, --- but the Word (Logos) was called by some, “The pre-incarnate Christ,” and He was the one I was referring to.
--- There was not a ‘pre-incarnate Jesus,’ because if we see Jesus as being physical, born of Mary, then He was the ‘vessel’ that the Word ‘indwelt,’ those years later, --- and the Word was called Christ.

I had said that The Word came down from heaven, and was the ‘voice of God’ on earth, but He could not be seen. --- Here He spoke through a burning bush, --- in the NT He spoke through Jesus.

--- As I said above, I was explaining the different perspective, but if you are convinced that Jesus was God in each situation, then that is your faith, so I will say no more, except this below, .


Quote: Jesus was as physical as he was spiritual. He is fully human and fully God.

Response: --- I was explaining the two as separate. Jesus as human, --- and the Word as Divine from God, and representing God on earth.

The concept of the Word (Spiritual) indwelling the body of Jesus (physical) is not too difficult to understand when we think of man being a three part being of body, soul, and spirit.
--- We only see the body

--- In the Book of Ecclesiastes, Solomon said this in 12:
6 Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken, (Death, separation of the spirit from the body)
Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well. (The vessel and the source of water are no more functional)
7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

--- The dust will return to the earth, --- and the spirit (or breath) of life returns to God.
And the ‘soul’ will go where it is prepared to go, either to heaven in salvation, or to hell in rejection.

But if we consider the Believers, after the Day of Pentecost, when they were ‘filled with the Holy Spirit,' --- they became a four part being, did they not? --- Body, soul, spirit, and Holy Spirit.
--- At death, the body would return to the earth, --- the spirit (or breath) of life returned to God, --- And the Holy Spirit (who had given the believer the assurance of salvation John 5:24), would take the soul to heaven, would He not?

The Word, went through death with Jesus, but the Word did not die, --- But it says of Jesus in Hebrews 2:
9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death." --- The Word could not die, neither can angels die, but Jesus was human so He could die, and the shedding of His blood bought our redemption, is that not right?

Placid

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God is King of kings , He owns it all, the whole universe and beyond. He owns your soul, your money and your kids. Why would such a Lord need trick to show that He is romantic much lesser king line like the line of David?

Could you explain what you mean?

 

 

Is the lineage of God inferior to the lineage of David? Dose god have less authority on the land of Judah and David has more rights and authority?

Because God gave him rights to said authority. Not only that, but his lineage will in fact have the throne of Israel, as from his lineage, the Messiah will come.

God is not inferior to David. God's "lineage" is so because we anthropomorphize God. God isn't a human to have a "lineage", not a human to have a wife...Jesus is his "son" because humans cannot comprehend the holiness of God, nor his plan, so he gives them in simple terms so that it's easier to understand: we call that a Mystery. It's the same with a trinity, we cannot comprehend it, it's divinity is out of our reach.

 

 

What was written on the cross was part of the mockery of the jews . It is not like that cross came down from heaven.

It's a "mockery" because the sign emphasizes the point that the messiah would be a king.

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The Word, went through death with Jesus, but the Word did not die, --- But it says of Jesus in Hebrews 2:

9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death." --- The Word could not die, neither can angels die, but Jesus was human so He could die, and the shedding of His blood bought our redemption, is that not right?

Placid

Then the Word is eternal, and by default is God.

Jesus' body is not of issue until the resurrection, in which case, he already achieved everlasting life via the body. You've probably made up your mind on Jesus' split natures, so any amount of convincing is probably beyond my reach. I suppose we must agree to disagree.

Edited by salamtek
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