Jersusalem: Synagogue Attack

[Marbles 16,029]

Do attacks like this help or hinder the Palestinian struggle?

 

 

 

 

Five Israelis were killed in a frenzied assault by two Palestinians who targeted worshippers at a Jerusalem synagogue, the latest in a series of deadly attacks that many fear is pushing the city to the edge of a dangerous escalation in violence.

 

Four of the people killed were rabbis, three holding joint US citizenship, one with dual British citizenship. The fifth victim was an Israeli policeman, who succumbed to his injuries late on Tuesday night.

 

The attack was greeted by international condemnation, and Israel’s prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, vowed to “respond harshly”, describing the attack as a “cruel murder of Jews who came to pray and were killed by despicable murderers”.

 

The two assailants, cousins Ghassan and Uday Abu Jamal, attacked the worshippers with meat cleavers and a gun during early-morning prayers before they were killed by police officers. The circumstances of the incident have added to the sense of crisis in Jerusalem.

 

Witnesses described a chaotic and bloody scene inside the synagogue as police and the attackers engaged in a shootout at the building’s entrance. Photographs distributed by Israeli authorities showed a man in a prayer shawl lying dead, a bloodied butcher’s cleaver on the floor and prayer books covered in blood.

 

Read full here

[SlaveOfAllah14 615]

I believe that it helps the Palestinian struggle. This is because such attacks will instil fear in the hearts of the Zionists. It will not let them sleep in peace. It will make them taste some of their own crimes. As for the possibility of retaliation to the Palestinians, I believe they're already in the worst situation. So it wont make much of a difference to them.

Edited November 19, 2014 by SlaveOfAllah14

[Haji 2003 7,726]

I think what the Zionists would prefer is the opportunity to grab as much Palestinian land as possible, as quietly as possible. After all, in the months and years that they have been land-grabbing quietly, the OP has posted nothing.

 

Of course, when there is some/any violence on the part of the Palestinians it is broadcast from the hilltops (as per this thread), to justify yet more land grabbing.

 

The Palestinians are in the same position as the American Indians and the Australian aborigines etc., whether they are peaceful or violent, one way or another the European and American colonists are going to evict them.

 

For the rest of us, the issue is whether or not we blame the victim.

[mina 4,813]

The problem is that all the civil and police zionist daily attacks against palestinians are never mentioned in the media...recently a palestinian kid got shot in his neck and died...who cares...now Netanjahu allows an easier weaponing of civilians and this in a country which is per law prefering its jewish citizens over all the others.Why does anyone wonder that the unprivileged attack the privileged in a racist country?

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

Edited November 19, 2014 by mina313

[Marbles 16,029]

I think what the Zionists would prefer is the opportunity to grab as much Palestinian land as possible, as quietly as possible. After all, in the months and years that they have been land-grabbing quietly, the OP has posted nothing.

 

Of course, when there is some/any violence on the part of the Palestinians it is broadcast from the hilltops (as per this thread), to justify yet more land grabbing.

 

The most recent I remember having posted was in the wake of the latest Israeli assault on Gaza. I had made a considerable batch of posts about Israeli war crimes, and in general their colonial project in Palestine, it's human rights abuses and its history of land-grabbing notably in the so called West Bank.

 

But did I post new threads on every or most incidents of land-grabbing over the years? No. I stand guilty of negligence.

 

Western media houses broadcast and magnify incidents like this and their bias is well-known. How am I to blame for posting news of a real-life incident on SC?

 

In any case, no one can shrug away at its consequences for Palestinians. And perhaps Muslims would like to discuss the morality (or lack of it) of such attacks from an Islamic point of view, or the excuse these actions provide to the Zionist narrative of war etc.

 

These are quite valid reasons to discuss the topic no?

 

Anyway, if you have some grievance against me, Br. Haji, please feel free to spell it out. It's so that I can stop wondering, know what to expect, and may devise a way to sidestep the continuous battery of snide remarks.

 

Thanks.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Marbles

[ShiaHashmi 345]

violence is not always bad, some times dogs need to be kicked in ass to keep them on right directions.

Infact too much blood is spilled, now its time to do or die for Palestinians. 

[mina 4,813]

Israeli forces on Wednesday demolished the family home of the suspect in a Jerusalem car-ramming attack last month, witnesses said.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=741041

And detained 12 familiy members of the attackers....that is the next problem and evidence for the injust system of Israel and how they ignore the bases of international law...and still they claim to be a democratic state...the zionist regime abandons itsself.

Edited November 19, 2014 by mina313

[notme 18,712]

 

For the rest of us, the issue is whether or not we blame the victim.

 

I don't think it was a matter of blaming the victim.  The question for discussion is "Do attacks like this help or hinder the Palestinian struggle?"

 

In my opinion they hurt the Palestinian cause.  This particular attack was aimed at religious leaders, not military personnel.  Maybe they were guilty of inciting others to violence, but the world sees religious leaders as innocent civilians, not at legitimate military targets.  The media coverage of the incident is inevitable, but it's really easy to add an anti-Palestinian tilt to this situation.  

 

Haven't I read that for Muslims, he who murders one man, it is as if he has murdered all of humanity?  I'm sure I've read that somewhere.  If you must battle, and sometimes it is necessary, let the battle be against the soldiers, not against the civilians.  Killing civilians in battle is murder, no matter who does it or what we think of those who are killed.

[mina 4,813]

According to polls 70 % of the Israelis back Netanjahu and the system of their state...there are a few hundred Israelis who are activists against the injustice but most are supporting racism and apartheid...even if they are civilians they support injustice and racist crimes against arab muslims, arab christians and even arab jews let alone black jews.

If someone supports injustice he has to be aware that he might be a target of the oppressed...how can someone who settles in a land which is robbed and their native people were thrown out and get killed claim he is in innocent?Everybody has to face the consequences for their actions.

And this case the religious fanatics are the also the ones who want to change status quo of East Jerusalem amd destroy aqsa mosque to build a temple...

but still it is better to fight military and police and me personally i see these attacks during the last weeks as a sign of despair and helplessness cuz almost nobody in the world stands up and helps palestinians to get armed so that they can defend themselves against the army and security forces...that is the shame and everyone of us will be asked about what we did to fight the yazeeds of our time...

Edited November 19, 2014 by mina313

[Spicen 76]

So rabbis were killed as far as i have heard ...... GOOD

[notme 18,712]

If someone supports injustice he has to be aware that he might be a target of the oppressed...

 

This is true, but it doesn't make the actions of the attackers right.  Humans are imperfect creatures, opportunistic and fearful.  Would it have been right to try every Nazi supporter for war crimes after WWII?  That would have been almost every German and a whole heck of a lot of other Europeans.  Would it have been right to accuse everyone who was afraid to fight against Yazid of opposing Imam Hussein?  Wouldn't that have been hundreds of thousands of people, everyone who knew of Yazid, with the exception of a few and including most "shia" of the day?  Life is complicated, and we don't entirely have control over our own situations and have to choose our actions carefully.  A person who might risk their own life for justice might be reluctant to risk the lives of their family and loved ones.  Which is why we can't say it is ok to murder any person unless we fully understand their lives, histories, and motivations, and the life, history, and motivation of the murderer.  

 

I'm not saying acts of desperation aren't understandable.  I'm just saying murder is murder.  War involves military personnel, fighters, politicians, maybe spies sometimes, but not religious leaders or other civilians, no matter their political views.  What would help the Palestinian cause would be for their leadership to condemn murder and encourage rebellion either in civil ways or by striking against military or political targets.  The media can slant things however they choose, but if they aren't given any ammunition, they tend to get caught when they outright lie.

 

 

My government (United States) is pretty oppressive and has committed plenty of crimes against other nations and against humanity.  Does that mean it's justified to come to my home, workplace, or place of worship and kill me?  

[Jahangiram 930]

I would expect godless communists like the PFLP to praise such attacks, but not Hamas. Shame on them, they just keep digging a bigger hole for themselves with their verbal support for these attacks.

 

Ultra Orthodox jews are exempt from conscription in the army so how are they a legitimate target? How can you differentiate between a nationalist haredi and an anti-Zionist haredi? Murder on assumption? Utterly stupid.

[rafidhi1986 77]

Killing people while they are praying??

Joining Isis to kill Shia and Christians??

The rest I will keep to myself..

[Khalilallah 1,270]

It just gives Israel more excuses to grab land and evict the Palestinians, what did they expect from killing a few Jews? that Israel will leave Palestine?

 

Natenyahu responds by destroying their houses, attacks such as these are spread around quickly by those who support Israel and recognize its legitimacy, they spread the news and they say it is an act of terror.

 

If they had sit down and recorded themselves being killed by Zionists, that would have helped the Palestinian cause more but now they have just made Palestinians look like a bunch of terrorists.

[mina 4,813]

The attack is not right but i am not surprised that it happend due to provocation and racism of the zionist regime...they just announced a day before the attack that they will settle allover Israel including East Jerusalem..

targeting civilians is not justified but there is the problem, at least in Israel, most think and openly say that arabs have to be killed...sounds not innocent to me...it is an extremely emotional issue, since i know friends,who work there in projects and it is just horrible how the youth are desperate and the whole world is watching apartheid...though i get ur point sis notme.

Edited November 19, 2014 by mina313

[Haji 2003 7,726]

Sometimes, in order to set your moral compass, you have to ignore what Shias are saying and turn to the voices of Christians, Jews and atheists.

 

Here are some of the more highly rated comments in the UK's Guardian newspaper, each new line represents the view of a different commentator.

 

 

​If only each Palestinian child who died in the bombings got the same amount of column inches.

 

Wasn't so long ago we were hearing how Israel was on a illegal settlement building frenzy,

 

Israel can't terrorise a nation of people and deem them cockroaches and sub-human scum and expect that population just to take it. It doesn't work like that.

 

As the two killers have themselves been killed, what does harsh retaliation mean? Surely not the planned despicable murder of others?

 

And the Israeli government/military shows why Palestinians should also have their own nation state. Unfortunately that's not possible whilst Israel insists on continually breaching the borders of its internationally agreed territory.

 

To carry the analogy, how many sleeping dogs would not growl and bark and bite if picked up and thrown out of their basket in favour of a cat? I'm not condoning what happened at all, but I don't think I'd let "sleeping dogs lie" if I was marginalised to the n'th degree and effectively the target of ethnic cleaning from a people that effected a brutal land-grab on my home and resources.

 

The ultimate goal is ethnic cleansing on a major scale on the grounds that the poor victim Israelis can't live with the evil barbarian Arabs.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/18/synagogue-murders-binyamin-netanyahu-despicable-murderers

[Spicen 76]

@Haji- hey thanks. Muslims after being abused on a daily basis are way too apologetic about this. I for one am happy.

[notme 18,712]

Here are some of the more highly rated comments in the UK's Guardian newspaper, each new line represents the view of a different commentator.

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/18/synagogue-murders-binyamin-netanyahu-despicable-murderers

 

 

I don't disagree with these comments AND I don't condone attacks on civilians.  Two wrongs do not make right.

@Haji- hey thanks. Muslims after being abused on a daily basis are way too apologetic about this. I for one am happy.

 

Would the Prophet or Imams have been happy about murder of non-combatants?  If yes, please support your claim.  

 

As I understand it, if a person murders one man, it is as if he has murdered all of humanity.

[iCambrian 634]

Murdering the innocent isnt going to bring change. I feel like this topic is a loaded question, because we all know that murdering a bunch of rabbis in cold blood is only going to hurt the "palestinian cause".

 

Those rabbis arent in government positions calling the shots. The rabbis arent armed combatants. They arent soldiers. Theyre...from what we can see, just a bunch of rabbis. And I can understand that people are upset over the situation. Most palestinians appear to be in a very unfair and harsh situation. But that is no reason to be happy about innocent people (the rabbis) being killed (which i would say is quite a sick opinion personally).

 

Change needs to occur on a much greater scale or it has to be created by people in higher positions. The government, the military, or even outside nations. A bunch of random palestinians murdering a few innocent people is too insignificant to make a difference. It only gives news outlets some ammunition for their media.  That is all...

 

Also, it comes off as anti semitic too.  Like these people hate jews.  But judaism is a religion and is something separate from the israeli government. So its like they arent actually trying to fight back against Israel, theyre fighting against judaism. Which is more food for the media.

Edited November 20, 2014 by iCambrian

[Jahangiram 930]

Can anyone confirm whether these jews were anti-Zionist haredis?

[kim.tinkerbell 1,252]

To be fair this attack is not going to help the paliestines one bit. We can order say rip to 100 palistienes from now,because you know so that the isrealies worint settle down and take this attack lightley. And yes,if isreal attacks palistien then it will be just called self defending and vice versa. And the cycle continues untill theirs no humans left to kill..

[David66 386]

Hello,

 

Shia Chat Rule Number 2.  "Disrespect to any Mujtahid, Marja' Taqleed, or religious authority will not be tolerated whatsoever." 

 

Then we have this,....

 

So rabbis were killed as far as i have heard ...... GOOD

 

Maybe I could understand if it was Rule Number 37 and the transgression was missed.  But, Rule Number 2!  And, the rule ends with will not be tolerated whatsoever.

 

And, let take a look.  Two Moderators have commented since Spicen's post.  notme and Haji 2003.  And, it is nice to see notme disagree with the comment.  It seems Haji 2003 is making excuses.  However, no Moderator active on this thread, or lurking Mod or Admin has enforced Shia Chat Rule Number 2. 

 

Why?

 

All the Best,

David

[Hameedeh 18,664]

David, if you want to report a post, the mods/admins would consider removing it, but when someone else quotes the post and opposes it, the post is usually not removed, because this is a discussion board. The other person, in this case yourself, has spent time in replying about the post in question.

[David66 386]

^ Hello,

 

Did, I say I wanted it removed?  Not at all.  I want Spicen's post to remain. 

 

I just wanted to point out the double standards in enforcing Shia Chat rules, from my perspective.

 

Spicen list his religion as Islam.  So, it is not me he embarrasess.

 

All the Best,

David

. 

[rafidhi1986 77]

^ Hello,

Did, I say I wanted it removed? Not at all. I want Spicen's post to remain.

I just wanted to point out the double standards in enforcing Shia Chat rules, from my perspective.

Spicen list his religion as Islam. So, it is not me he embarrasess.

All the Best,

David

.

David,

I have reported spicen a few times for his statements. He offends me because I'm jewish by race, thank you for voicing your opinion twice, I appreciate it. Hopefully something will be done about this hitler loving nazi.

And please, I am a very proud shia muslim, and he knows nothing of Islam.

Masalam,

Aziz

Edited November 20, 2014 by rafidhi1986

[iCambrian 634]

I agree with David. Its kind of sad to see someone claiming that theyre happy when innocent people are killed.

Edited November 20, 2014 by iCambrian

[SlaveOfAllah14 615]

Why does everyone call these Zionists "civilians"? They are living in a land that is not theirs! They've spilled innocent blood to live there. Them living there means they support the Zionists and they accept and justify their brutal crimes against innocent Palestinians. Thus killing them is far from killing civilians. 

[mina 4,813]

I tried to find out if the killed were Haredi, anti-zionist jews, but couldn't find any informations about this.There are a number Haredi groups which not only oppose Zionism, but also do not recognise the State of Israel.Around 80% of Israeli Jews identify as secular, and of the 20% who identity as religious, 6% are Haredi.

The problem i have, is to see them, if not anti zionist Haredi,as civilians, cause the groups of zionist rabbis are the ones pushing this racist ideology and justifying the settlement of the land and the murder of arabs/muslims...they are the ideological heads of this sick system.They are combatant without uniform...but i prefer organized, armed resistance against security forces and boycott, general strikes.

As for Jerusalem the last months, i think it is the beginning of civil an unrest...where u have civilians attacking each other...there are a lot of attacks against palestinians and burned mosques as wellcarried out by right jews

update:the killed were Haredi rabbishttp://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2014/11/5th-terror-victim-buried-as-haredim-urged-to-attend-funeral-456.html

Edited November 20, 2014 by mina313

[Marbles 16,029]

I don't disagree with these comments AND I don't condone attacks on civilians.  Two wrongs do not make right.

 

In fact, no Shia participating in this thread would disagree with the Guardian sample.

 

The copy-pasted comments explain why a people under the yoke of occupation for generations, suffering from humiliation and hopelessness every day, are driven to desperate measures such as this latest act of violence. They also highlight the sheer hypocrisy of world media and foreign powers in their portrayal of this conflict.

 

None of the comments have condoned or justified the attack. And this is in line with the views most Shias have expressed in this thread.

 

I think some people want us to go further so that when we don't condone such acts, they object to that; they want us to be more like Hamas in our rhetoric and tactics. But the first casualty of taking this view is Islamic laws regulating war/defense, which suddenly become irrelevant or equivocal even to the most devout fiqh-lovers.

 

In that we also have a sub-lesson: it's a strong example of politics dictating people's religious views.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Marbles

[Spicen 76]

David,

I have reported spicen a few times for his statements. He offends me because I'm jewish by race, thank you for voicing your opinion twice, I appreciate it. Hopefully something will be done about this hitler loving nazi.

And please, I am a very proud shia muslim, and he knows nothing of Islam.

Masalam,

Aziz

And you have ridiculed christian belief where i have not. I still havent attacked judaism

Because of you a great poster, placid was offended.

And i assume a person who disbelieves Quraan, to be a Muslim?

Anyway that comment had to go through mod approval anyway. I said it in a moment of passion. You will not understand, you think Al Aqsa is a pile of garbage. And no im not sorry for what i said.

Wheres this david when jews are destroying and killing palestinians and where IS HIS CONDEMNATION? He blalantly supports the genocidal regime of israel. And he is talking about double standard?

[Spicen 76]

In fact, no Shia participating in this thread would disagree with the Guardian sample.

 

The copy-pasted comments explain why a people under the yoke of occupation for generations, suffering from humiliation and hopelessness every day, are driven to desperate measures such as this latest act of violence. They also highlight the sheer hypocrisy of world media and foreign powers in their portrayal of this conflict.

 

None of the comments have condoned or justified the attack. And this is line with the views most Shias have expressed in this thread.

 

I think some people want us to go further and stop not condoning such acts, be more like Hamas in our rhetoric and tactics. The first casualty of taking this view is Islamic laws regulating war/defense, which suddenly become irrelevant or equivocal even to the most devout fiqh-lovers.

 

In that we also have a sub-lesson: it's a strong example of politics dictating people's religious views.

You are very close to my sentiments.

Surprise is that people are sitting behind their pcs rationalising palestinians but do any of u realise what palestinians go through? Who are we to judge a people facing ethnic extinction.

And who is David? A ZIONIST living in the middle of nowhere in USA would know palestinian suffering? Tell him to live one day under the yoke of israel and lets see if he keeps his tongue wagging with big words.

[Spicen 76]

Why does everyone call these Zionists "civilians"? They are living in a land that is not theirs! They've spilled innocent blood to live there. Them living theredead, ns they support the Zionists and they accept and justify their brutal crimes against innocent Palestinians. Thus killing them is far from killing civilians.

Brother you echo my statement, but this is the golden rule:

When the whole world makes fun, ridicules, islam, when the world watches in entertainment as a people are being completely destroyed, its fair game.

When a brother of that victim dares to be happy that some of his enemies are dead all HELL breaks loose.

In a nutshell we see this is Talmud:

"When a goy(non jew) kills a goy or jew, he is responsible. When a jew kills a jew, he is not responsible."

Yep talmudic double standard. Right there.

[Spicen 76]

And im Very happy that im hated by a known troll and a ghalut.

It means im on the right track

[repenter-gone4awhile 7,301]

And you have ridiculed christian belief where i have not. I still havent attacked judaism

Because of you a great poster, placid was offended.

And i assume a person who disbelieves Quraan, to be a Muslim?

Anyway that comment had to go through mod approval anyway. I said it in a moment of passion. You will not understand, you think Al Aqsa is a pile of garbage. And no im not sorry for what i said.

Wheres this david when jews are destroying and killing palestinians and where IS HIS CONDEMNATION? He blalantly supports the genocidal regime of israel. And he is talking about double standard?

 

Seriously man, you have issues. I already banned you once for not thinking before you write. You have very racist comments, this is your last warning. Calm down or get banned, easy as that. 

[SlaveOfAllah14 615]

 But the first casualty of taking this view is Islamic laws regulating war/defense, which suddenly become irrelevant or equivocal even to the most devout fiqh-lovers.

 

In that we also have a sub-lesson: it's a strong example of politics dictating people's religious views.

 Please inform us of the islamic laws regarding this.

Without doubt Allah's (SWT) ruling is far more superior to politics or personal beliefs. 

 

As far as I know, these type of attacks are Jihad against the occupiers. But if religious ruling says otherwise, please enlighten us.