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StrugglingForTheLight

The Place Of Harun To Musa Hadith - Revisited.

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I think this is one of the strongest arguments for Shiism.

 

Not for Shiaism - in my view.

 

This may be a strong argument in favour of Imam Ali.

 

But in my view, the strongest arguments in favour of Shiaism, in general, are the Hadeeth-e-Saqalain in the first place and the Hadeeth-e-Kisa in the second place.  

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(salam)

Just to answer in advanced to the Sunnis who will come and ask us to prove this hadīth from our own books:

أبو علي الأشعري عن محمد بن عبد الجبار عن الحسن بن علي بن فضال عن ثعلبة بن ميمون عن أبي أمية يوسف بن ثابت بن أبي سعيدة عن أبي عبد الله ع أنهم قالوا حين دخلوا عليه : إنما أحببناكم لقرابتكم من رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) ولما أوجب الله عز وجل من حقكم ما أحببناكم للدنيا نصيبها منكم إلا لوجه الله والدار الآخرة وليصلح لامرء منا دينه فقال أبو عبد الله ع : صدقتم صدقتم ثم قال : من أحبنا كان معنا أو جاء معنا يوم القيامة هكذا ثم جمع بين السبابتين ثم قال : والله لو أن رجلا صام النهار وقام الليل ثم لقى الله عز وجل بغير ولايتنا أهل البيت للقيه وهو عنه غير راض أو ساخط عليه ثم قال : وذلك قول الله عز وجل : " وما منعهم أن تقبل منهم نفقاتهم إلا أنهم كفروا بالله وبرسوله ولا يأتون الصلاة إلا وهم كسالى ولا ينفقون إلا وهم كارهون * فلا تعجبك أموالهم ولا أولادهم إنما يريد الله ليعذبهم بها في الحياة الدنيا وتزهق أنفسهم وهم كافرون " ثم قال : وكذلك الايمان لا يضر معه العمل وكذلك الكفر لا ينفع معه العمل ثم قال : إن تكونوا وحدانيين فقد كان رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) وحدانيا يدعو الناس فلا يستجيبون له وكان أول من استجاب له علي بن أبي طالب ع وقد قال رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) : " أنت مني بمنزلة هارون من موسى إلا أنه لا نبي بعدي " .

Abu ‘Alī al-Ash’arī, from Muhammad ibn Abd al-Jabbār, from al-Hasan ibn Alī ibn Fadhāl, from Tha’labah ibn Maymūn, from Yūsuf ibn Thābit ibn Abi Sa’eedah, from Abu Abdillah al-Sadiq (as): ...Rasul Allah was alone, and he would invite people [to the religion] and they would not respond and the first to respond to his was Alī ibn Abi Talib. And Rasul Allah said: You are to me like Hārūn was to Mūsā, except that there is no Prophet after me.

 

Al-Kafi, Shaykh al-Kulaynī, volume 8 page 106,

Allamah al-Majlisi said in al-Mir’āt, muwathaq.

Salam

 

Can this hadith be correct while we know Khadija (sa) also accepted the message right away?

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my brother struggling for light. yes she did accepted Islam. she is one of the first three to do so. But if you read the hadith carefully you would notice that the prophet asked for a brother and successor.if imamat had anything to do with females also then the likes of Fatima A.S would also had been an imam.

I hope your doubt is clear

Regards

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my brother struggling for light. yes she did accepted Islam. she is one of the first three to do so. But if you read the hadith carefully you would notice that the prophet asked for a brother and successor.if imamat had anything to do with females also then the likes of Fatima A.S would also had been an imam.

I hope your doubt is clear

Regards

The hadith talks about calling people towards him, not for a successor.

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They are busy in googling the reply to your post and paste here. In the meanwhile they have got hundreds of propaganda pages on the very first page of google and now they have decided not to reply you here rather open some more false propaganda full of lies topics or posts here or some other forum. You will rarely find a reasonable Sunni to reply.... The tragedy is it is true..

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hazrat Harun never really succeeded hazrat Musa after the latter's death did he? From what I remember a bit about the history

How does this help your case? Would it change that is Ali was the divinely appointed Wazeer of Mohammad? Would it change him being chosen? And would he not be most worthy of leadership in absence of Mohammad like Harun was worthy of leadership in absence of Musa?

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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Hazrat harun (as) never succeeded hazrat musa (as) so this Hadith is irrelevant when it comes to permemant successorship.. End off!!!

But Harun was a leader ALONG SIDE Musa, he was his Wazeer, and in absence of Musa, Harun has most right to take his place as leader. And Harun was chosen along side Musa and made a partner in his affair. So how is this hadith irrelevant to permanent succession? And wouldn't it mean during the life time of Mohammad, Ali was an authority over believers, and so this would definitely continue after Mohammad's death. Harun was to be obeyed unconditionally, and had this authority, so doesn't Ali? Harun was a representative of God alongside Musa, so doesn't this apply to Ali?

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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But Harun was a leader ALONG SIDE Musa, he was his Wazeer, and in absence of Musa, Harun has most right to take his place as leader. And Harun was chosen along side Musa and made a partner in his affair. So how is this hadith irrelevant to permanent succession? And wouldn't it mean during the life time of Mohammad, Ali was an authority over believers, and so this would definitely continue after Mohammad's death. Harun was to be obeyed unconditionally, and had this authority, so doesn't Ali? Harun was a representative of God alongside Musa, so doesn't this apply to Ali?

Harun (as) was a prophet imam Ali (as) wasn't. If the holy prophet (pbuh) was talking about permemant successorship he (pbuh) would have said you are to me as yusha (as) was to musa (as)...that would make much more sense wouldn't you agree?

It's pretty obvious whatever the prophet (pbuh) was trying to say in this Hadith had nothing to do with successorship otherwise why say the name of harun (as) when harun (as) didn't even succeed musa (as) :wacko:

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Harun (as) was a prophet imam Ali (as) wasn't. 

That's true, but we see in Quran non-Prophets can be appointed authorities like Talut and the 12 Chiefs of Bani-Israel, and be chosen and specially exalted like Mariam, therefore how would he lose all the other stations like being a Wazeer appointed by God. How would he not be a chosen person a long side Mohammad, if Mariam can be chosen and not be a Prophet, why does Ali have to be a Prophet to be chosen.  If Talut can be chosen and a leader and not a Prophet, why can't Ali? Since Harun was a leader along side Musa and was a partner in the affair of Musa, we can only assume the same is true of Ali.

 

If the holy prophet (pbuh) was talking about permemant successorship he (pbuh) would have said you are to me as yusha (as) was to musa (as)...

 

It's pretty obvious whatever the prophet  (pbuh) was trying to say in this Hadith had nothing to do with successorship otherwise why say the name of harun  (as)when harun  (as) didn't even succeed musa  (as)  :wacko: 

1. Because it kills two birds with one stone.

2. Harun is mentioned in Quran, there is no mention of Yushua in Quran.

 

What I mean by 1, is that Harun was a partner in his affair during the life time of Musa, and the brother of Musa, and needed to be acknowledged a long side Musa. He was also the one by which Musa's chest was expanded, and his back supported, and this was reference to the knot on the tongue of Musa that he felt, which is the hardship in conveying the inner truths of the revelation and higher truths, and so Harun was a Guide during his life time, and the followers of Musa AND Harun where the true prosperous per Quran, and so we see that people who belittled Harun were not on the guidance of the religion and we can see they didn't even have a firm grasp of Tawheed so much so they fell into Shirk right after Musa left them with Harun. So in the same way, the Rasool is making it clear, if you want to acknowledge him and follow him, you have to acknowledge his wazir and enter the gate to the house of wisdom or city of knowledge and follow Ali as well, during his life time...because Ali was made the gate to the inward of the religion like Harun was during Musa time as Harun was better in speech and conveying these higher truths. Therefore the Rasool said it because Ali was to be followed during Rasool time and not just after.

 

And it also points to him being a successor, because, he is chosen, and as Talut verses show those chosen are those whom God makes Kings over people and gives his authority to, and because he is the wazir, and being wazir meant he had authority over everyone Mohammad authority over during his life time, but he is under the leadership of Mohammad and Mohammad takes on the main helm of leadership.  And as Harun is most worthy to take the place Moses in his absence, the same is true of Ali of Mohammad. So it proves him being successor.

 

So it has these two birds killed in one stone!

 

As for we never see in Quran say "Peace be upon Musa and Yushua.." or "We made Yushua a successor..." or "Lord of Musa and Yushua",  Harun is the one emphasized as being one to be acknowledged by people along side Musa, and he is the one who was made Wazeer, and he is the only one Musa had control over at the end per a verse Suratal Maeeda. So Harun was emphasized through out the Quran and no where was Yushua mentioned. Therefore it makes sense Allah wants to convey the position of Ali being one to be acknowledged a long side Mohammad as the position of Harun to Musa with exception of Prophethood, because that is what the Quran emphasized on. There is a reason it keeps mentioning Harun's position with Musa in Quran and emphasizes on it.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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Already discussed in detail.

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234997564-imam-ali-couldnt-even-get-40-followers/?view=findpost&p=2399083

 

Hadith is not even considered Saheeh (al-Majlisi). So not only is this example faulty to begin with, it's not even saheeh.

 

But the Shialeaders, I meant the Cheerleaders will pounce on anything that "sounds" good. 

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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Already discussed in detail.

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234997564-imam-ali-couldnt-even-get-40-followers/?view=findpost&p=2399083

 

Hadith is not even considered Saheeh (al-Majlisi). So not only is this example faulty to begin with, it's not even saheeh.

 

But the Shialeaders, I meant the Cheerleaders will pounce on anything that "sounds" good. 

 

It's muwathaq.

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It's Mutuwatir in Sunni books, and there is no reason to assume they would of fabricated this report.

 


It's also reported here in a long hadith from Imam Retha [as] that as far as I am aware of has an authentic chain: http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/library/hadith/uyun_akhbar_al_reza_1/28.htm

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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That's true, but we see in Quran non-Prophets can be appointed authorities like Talut and the 12 Chiefs of Bani-Israel, and be chosen and specially exalted like Mariam, therefore how would he lose all the other stations like being a Wazeer appointed by God. How would he not be a chosen person a long side Mohammad, if Mariam can be chosen and not be a Prophet, why does Ali have to be a Prophet to be chosen. If Talut can be chosen and a leader and not a Prophet, why can't Ali? Since Harun was a leader along side Musa and was a partner in the affair of Musa, we can only assume the same is true of Ali.

1. Because it kills two birds with one stone.

2. Harun is mentioned in Quran, there is no mention of Yushua in Quran.

What I mean by 1, is that Harun was a partner in his affair during the life time of Musa, and the brother of Musa, and needed to be acknowledged a long side Musa. He was also the one by which Musa's chest was expanded, and his back supported, and this was reference to the knot on the tongue of Musa that he felt, which is the hardship in conveying the inner truths of the revelation and higher truths, and so Harun was a Guide during his life time, and the followers of Musa AND Harun where the true prosperous per Quran, and so we see that people who belittled Harun were not on the guidance of the religion and we can see they didn't even have a firm grasp of Tawheed so much so they fell into Shirk right after Musa left them with Harun. So in the same way, the Rasool is making it clear, if you want to acknowledge him and follow him, you have to acknowledge his wazir and enter the gate to the house of wisdom or city of knowledge and follow Ali as well, during his life time...because Ali was made the gate to the inward of the religion like Harun was during Musa time as Harun was better in speech and conveying these higher truths. Therefore the Rasool said it because Ali was to be followed during Rasool time and not just after.

And it also points to him being a successor, because, he is chosen, and as Talut verses show those chosen are those whom God makes Kings over people and gives his authority to, and because he is the wazir, and being wazir meant he had authority over everyone Mohammad authority over during his life time, but he is under the leadership of Mohammad and Mohammad takes on the main helm of leadership. And as Harun is most worthy to take the place Moses in his absence, the same is true of Ali of Mohammad. So it proves him being successor.

So it has these two birds killed in one stone!

As for we never see in Quran say "Peace be upon Musa and Yushua.." or "We made Yushua a successor..." or "Lord of Musa and Yushua", Harun is the one emphasized as being one to be acknowledged by people along side Musa, and he is the one who was made Wazeer, and he is the only one Musa had control over at the end per a verse Suratal Maeeda. So Harun was emphasized through out the Quran and no where was Yushua mentioned. Therefore it makes sense Allah wants to convey the position of Ali being one to be acknowledged a long side Mohammad as the position of Harun to Musa with exception of Prophethood, because that is what the Quran emphasized on. There is a reason it keeps mentioning Harun's position with Musa in Quran and emphasizes on it.

You're just running in circles. Ok I'll make it easier for you since you're having difficulties understanding.

A is the current leader- musa a.s

B is the current leaders advisor/helper.- harun a.s

C is to be the leader after A- yusha (as)

Now. The holy prophet (pbuh) is saying I'm A Ali you are B, correct?

Now of I wanted to say Ali you are to me like B was to A then am I saying my successor or helper?

Edited by Wisdom007

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Salam

This has already been addressed. I would just be repeating the same points showed in the post.

...and your answer made zero sense that's why I explained it in an easier way to you because you sound confused and lost

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It's muwathaq.

 

 

 

 

It's Mutuwatir in Sunni books, and there is no reason to assume they would of fabricated this report.

 

It's also reported here in a long hadith from Imam Retha [as] that as far as I am aware of has an authentic chain: http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/library/hadith/uyun_akhbar_al_reza_1/28.htm

 

It's not rated saheeh. To say that "there's no reason to assume they would fabricate this report" contradicts the whole reason why a non-saheeh grade was given. And a narration doesn't only have to be fabricated, a narration can also lose words/meaning or misunderstood while it goes through plethora of narrators. 

 

It speaks volumes that these types of non-saheeh narrations are used to establish a fundamental aspect of a belief. If people started using non-saheeh narrations to use as examples to establish fundamental aspects of a belief then there would be hundred times more variations of Islam then we have now. 

 

Regardless, the whole comparison is erroneous, I've already provided a link. 

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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Ok brother. If Harun outlived Musa, do you think Harun would be successor per God's will or not? 


It's not rated saheeh. 

 

Yeah I know, it's rated mutuwatir, so many Saheeh chains that there is no doubt. It's in Sahih Bukhari as well. 

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You're just running in circles. Ok I'll make it easier for you since you're having difficulties understanding.

A is the current leader- musa a.s

B is the current leaders advisor/helper.- harun a.s

C is to be the leader after A- yusha (as)

Now. The holy prophet (pbuh) is saying I'm A Ali you are B, correct?

Now of I wanted to say Ali you are to me like B was to A then am I saying my successor or helper?

The point of Yusha is irrelevant in the context of the hadith and the Qur'an verse.

 

Let me trying to make some clear point here. The Qur'an verse 7:142 word "akhlufni" means represent, succeed me, which imply of course succession or representative. Now before you jump again to your logic, we know that al-Yasa` was the successor of Musa.

 

But that is not the point here. What we are trying to imply is that Musa (a.s) was in Absence When Harun (a.s) was the Khalif. 

The hadith clearly say You are to me as Harun was to Musa.   Which means In the absence of Prophet Muhammad (a.s), Ali is his representative of the qowm (his community) in the sense of Qur'an verse 7:142. Of course you can say true, but it is just an temporally, but here is the point, this part " but there shall be no prophet after me"

 

That part imply what is coming after the Prophet Muhammad (saws). Which means After The Prophet Muhammad (saws), 7:142 implys to Imam Ali (a.s).

Edited by Dhulfikar

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Ibn Asakir investigated its chains in a volume, and the number of the Sahabah who narrated it (in his research) reached more than twenty. In Sharh al-Risalah of Shaykh Jasus, may Allah be merciful to him, he states: “And the hadith ‘You are to me of the status of Harun to Musa’ is mutawatir. It has been narrated by more than twenty Sahabah.

 

 

Abu ‘Abd Allah Muhammad b. Ja’far al-Idrisi al-Kattani, Nazam al-Mutanathir min al-Hadith al-Mutawatir (Egypt: Dar al-Kutub al-Salafiyyah; 2nd edition), p. 195, # 233

 

Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 H) states:

The Rafidhi said: The third (point) is his statement (to ‘Ali), “You are to me of the status of Harun to Musa, except that there is no prophet after me.”....

The reply is: This hadith is authentic in the two Sahihs without any doubt, and in other books too.

Abu al-‘Abbas Ahmad b. ‘Abd al-Halim b. Taymiyyah al-Harrani, Minhaj al-Sunnah al-Nabawiyyah (Muasassat Qurtubah; 1st edition, 1406 H) [annotator: Dr. Muhammad Rashad Salim], vol. 7, pp. 325-326

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Ok brother. If Harun outlived Musa, do you think Harun would be successor per God's will or not? 

 

Yeah I know, it's rated mutuwatir, so many Saheeh chains that there is no doubt. It's in Sahih Bukhari as well. 

 

"If" then probably, but you can't justify a fundamental part of a belief by changing the narration to an 'if'. Not only that, even if you do, it's still erroneous.

 

I'll copy/paste what I wrote before:

 

1) The hadith is about the temporary position while the Prophet is away, just like how Musa was temporarily away and put Harun in charge, hence clearly stated the Prophet appointed Ali while he was away for Tabuk

 

2) Harun never succeeded Musa, hence your example is totally flawed. If Harun never succeeded Musa then how can this hadith talk about Ali succeeding the Prophet? It makes no sense.

 

You are ignoring the context, you are ignoring the historic event of Harun not succeeding Musa, you are even ignoring that it's not saheeh, you are taking one sentence out of context to support your belief. 

 

My advice, just stick to Ghadeer Khum. 

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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1) The hadith is about the temporary position while the Prophet is away, just like how Musa was temporarily away and put Harun in charge, hence clearly stated the Prophet appointed Ali while he was away for Tabuk

 

Did you even read the opening post. If it was just temporary leadership in the even of Tabuk, then why would it be mentioned "except there is no Prophet after me". This means the position he is talking about with respect to Harun to Musa includes that of Prophethood, and therefore it was necessary to clarify he was not a Prophet like Harun was. If it was just about temporary leadership, he should not mention the Prophethood being included, because we would have to assume all other stations with respect Harun has to Musa, Ali has if he mentions Prophethood being included in the station of Harun to Musa. If he didn't mention it, then we would have to assume it was temporary leadership because we know Ali was not a Prophet. 

 

 

 

2) Harun never succeeded Musa, hence your example is totally flawed. If Harun never succeeded Musa then how can this hadith talk about Ali succeeding the Prophet? It makes no sense.

 

Harun was the one to take the place of Musa in his absence. So the same is true of Ali. Harun had authority over all of humanity so the same is true of Ali. Harun was chosen by God to be partner in the affair of Musa, so it's the same with Ali. Harun was exalted above the people, the same is true of Ali. And we read in Talut verses those chosen above others and exalted by God are made authorities and God gives his authority to such people.  Harun was the wazeer of Musa, the same is true of Ali. Why would God appoint Ali as Wazir of Mohammad only to not have him succeed the place of Mohammad. Harun would succeed Musa if he outlives Musa, the same is true of Ali. Therefore this proves succession. But it also proves Ali was to be followed and was the gate to the interior of the religion and wisdom during the life time of Mohammad.

 

 
you are even ignoring that it's not saheeh

 

 

Again it is Saheeh, it's in Bukhari and Muslim and many other books with authentic chains, and has reached the level of Tuwatir. Please stop saying this with no knowledge of the fact.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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"If" then probably, but you can't justify a fundamental part of a belief by changing the narration to an 'if'. Not only that, even if you do, it's still erroneous.

 

I'll copy/paste what I wrote before:

 

1) The hadith is about the temporary position while the Prophet is away, just like how Musa was temporarily away and put Harun in charge, hence clearly stated the Prophet appointed Ali while he was away for Tabuk

 

2) Harun never succeeded Musa, hence your example is totally flawed. If Harun never succeeded Musa then how can this hadith talk about Ali succeeding the Prophet? It makes no sense.

 

You are ignoring the context, you are ignoring the historic event of Harun not succeeding Musa, you are even ignoring that it's not saheeh, you are taking one sentence out of context to support your belief. 

 

My advice, just stick to Ghadeer Khum. 

 

Your arguments are so faulty:

 

1. You are making a baseless assumption. No where in the hadith does it imply it was "temporal".

2. Read the context, common sense really. The hadith, is literally speaking about Harun's position to Musa A.S and what was that position? CLEARLY, Harun A.S acted as Musa A.S successor (heir/vicegerent), WHILE Musa A.S was alive. That is what the hadith is speaking about and this is what the hadith means when it is speaking about Imam Ali A.S. The only reason why Harun did not succeed Musa AFTER Musa A.S death was because Harun A.S died before Musa A.S. This in no way nullifies his position to Musa. Its faulty logic on your part. Nor does this imply, Imam Ali A.S cant be the successor after Muhammad A.S death, for such a claim is not even close to implied.

 

All you are doing is making up your own context, to a misunderstood hadith on your part, and you expect people to accept your argument, on the basis of YOUR false assumptions.

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Did you even read the opening post. If it was just temporary leadership in the even of Tabuk, then why would it be mentioned "except there is no Prophet after me". This means the position he is talking about with respect to Harun to Musa includes that of Prophethood, and therefore it was necessary to clarify he was not a Prophet like Harun was. If it was just about temporary leadership, he should not mention the Prophethood being included, because we would have to assume all other stations with respect Harun has to Musa, Ali has if he mentions Prophethood being included in the station of Harun to Musa. If he didn't mention it, then we would have to assume it was temporary leadership because we know Ali was not a Prophet. 

 

Because the Prophet clearly stated there will be no Prophet - no divinely appointed leaders after him. In the case of Musa/Harun, there were divinely appointed leaders (Prophets) after them. 

 

You need to read the context of the narration, why the Prophet stated this to the people?

 

Harun was the one to take the place of Musa in his absence. So the same is true of Ali. Harun had authority over all of humanity so the same is true of Ali. Harun was chosen by God to be partner in the affair of Musa, so it's the same with Ali. Harun was exalted above the people, the same is true of Ali. And we read in Talut verses those chosen above others and exalted by God are made authorities and God gives his authority to such people.  Harun was the wazeer of Musa, the same is true of Ali. Why would God appoint Ali as Wazir of Mohammad only to not have him succeed the place of Mohammad. Harun would succeed Musa if he outlives Musa, the same is true of Ali. Therefore this proves succession. But it also proves Ali was to be followed and was the gate to the interior of the religion and wisdom during the life time of Mohammad.

 

Ali was appointed for Tabuk only as it clearly states. It was a temporary position, when the Prophet returned it was void. This narration is about Tabuk and Tabuk only. 

 

This isn't rocket science. You just want to add erroneous interpretations when the narration clearly states what the temporary position was for (Tabuk). 

Your arguments are so faulty:

 

1. You are making a baseless assumption. No where in the hadith does it imply it was "temporal".

2. Read the context, common sense really. The hadith, is literally speaking about Harun's position to Musa A.S and what was that position? CLEARLY, Harun A.S acted as Musa A.S successor (heir/vicegerent), WHILE Musa A.S was alive. That is what the hadith is speaking about and this is what the hadith means when it is speaking about Imam Ali A.S. The only reason why Harun did not succeed Musa AFTER Musa A.S death was because Harun A.S died before Musa A.S. This in no way nullifies his position to Musa. Its faulty logic on your part. Nor does this imply, Imam Ali A.S cant be the successor after Muhammad A.S death, for such a claim is not even close to implied.

 

All you are doing is making up your own context, to a misunderstood hadith on your part, and you expect people to accept your argument, on the basis of YOUR false assumptions.

 

1. Read the hadith again, and tell me what did the Prophet appoint Ali for?? Before you do that, take off your Shia glasses otherwise you'll see Shiasm in every text. 

2. Harun was given a temporary position for a specific curmemstance, just like in Tabuk, He was not appointed as a successor - that;s your incorrect Shia spice added.  

 

Equating a temporary position for a specific circumstance (Tabuk) equates to Ali being a divinely appointed successor after the Prophet's death is absurd. 

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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Because the Prophet clearly stated there will be no Prophet - no divinely appointed leaders after him. In the case of Musa/Harun, there were divinely appointed leaders (Prophets) after them. 

The 12 Chiefs of Bani-Israel were appointed by God but weren't Prophets. Talut was appointed by God but wasn't a Prophet. It would also mean Ali was chosen and exalted by God as Harun was chosen and exalted by God alongside Musa, and we know to be chosen and exalted by God doesn't mean you're a Prophet as in the case of Mariam and Talut.

 

Where is your proof that being a divinely appointed leader is Prophethood. In this case, all Muslims believe Imam Mahdi is appointed as God's Caliph on earth and risen by him and chosen by him and his authority is obligatory, so do all Muslims believe in a Prophet after Mohammad?

 

Ali was appointed for Tabuk only as it clearly states. It was a temporary position, when the Prophet returned it was void. This narration is about Tabuk and Tabuk only. 

 

Already addressed.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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1. Read the hadith again, and tell me what did the Prophet appoint Ali for?? Before you do that, take off your Shia glasses otherwise you'll see Shiasm in every text. 

2. Harun was given a temporary position for a specific curmemstance, just like in Tabuk, He was not appointed as a successor - that;s your incorrect Shia spice added.  

 

Equating a temporary position for a specific circumstance (Tabuk) equates to Ali being a divinely appointed successor after the Prophet's death is absurd. 

 

1. What do you mean "what" was he appoint for? On what evidence are you assuming it was temporal? In fact, looking at sunni hadith as a whole, where the prophet a.s speaks of Imam Ali A.S, it is proven otherwise [here]. I suggest you stop trying to make wasteful excuses that have no justifications.

2. Okay then SHOW ME where Musa A.S spoke to Harun and claimed him as a "temporal" vicegerent. The QURAN proves otherwise.

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The 12 Chiefs of Bani-Israel were appointed by God but weren't Prophets. Talut was appointed by God but wasn't a Prophet. It would also mean Ali was chosen and exalted by God as Harun was chosen and exalted by God alongside Musa, and we know to be chosen and exalted by God doesn't mean you're a Prophet as in the case of Mariam and Talut.

 

Where is your proof that being a divinely appointed leader is Prophethood. In this case, all Muslims believe Imam Mahdi is appointed as God's Caliph on earth and risen by him and chosen by him and his authority is obligatory, so do all Muslims believe in a Prophet after Mohammad?

 

With that logic, Abu Lubabah, Abu Dharr, Abdat, and many more were appointed by the Prophet, were all divine leaders? You think Ali was the only one the Prophet ever appointed for a specific temporary position?

 

Every human appointed by the Prophet for any temporary position regardless of circumstances is now a divine leader.  :wacko:

 

1. What do you mean "what" was he appoint for? On what evidence are you assuming it was temporal? In fact, looking at sunni hadith as a whole, where the prophet a.s speaks of Imam Ali A.S, it is proven otherwise [here]. I suggest you stop trying to make wasteful excuses that have no justifications.

2. Okay then SHOW ME where Musa A.S spoke to Harun and claimed him as a "temporal" vicegerent. The QURAN proves otherwise.

 

1. You didn't answer the question. What did the Prophet appoint Ali for in that narration?

2. Errr, read it again. 

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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