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Alizulfiqar

Did Adams Children Committed Incest?

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thats the problem we have....NO CLEAR ANSWER......why do we have this ambiguity in quran then?....why such a sensitive piece of information is left for our imagination?

 

Will the answer change us guide us? The quran is a book of morals and guidance, it sometimes leaves out information. The quran is not a literal book filled with everything. That is why we have hadith and the brother answered above. There are hadiths that mention the answer.

 

 

 

(salam)

 

Generally our ahadith suggest that incest did not take place. However, what they do suggest (i.e. kids were married off to Huris or Jinns and there is also a common third opinion now that they might have married the Nethanderals) is not so easy to explain either, since it brings about many theological questions.

 

Wassalam

Edited by PureEthics

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Will the answer change us guide us? The quran is a book of morals and guidance, it sometimes leaves out information. The quran is not a literal book filled with everything. That is why we have hadith and the brother answered above. There are hadiths that mention the answer.

i seek absolute perfection if its word of god....leaving out information for us doesnt make any sense......and i am not talking about eveyrhing. I am only talking about the contradiction its creating when the information is left out

 

and where is the hadith?... your brother didnt give any source for the hadith either...SOURCE PLEASE?

Edited by Alizulfiqar

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i seek absolute perfection if its word of god....leaving out information for us doesnt make any sense......and i am not talking about eveyrhing. I am only talking about the contradiction its creating when the information is left out

 

and where is the hadith?... your brother didnt give any source for the hadith either...SOURCE PLEASE?

 

What contradiction?

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(salam)

 

and where is the hadith?... your brother didnt give any source for the hadith either...SOURCE PLEASE?

 

You can find some material on it, in Hayat al-Qulub Volume 1 (Qisas al-Ambiya), page 94 of the Arabic book, under the section of: تزویج آدم حواء و کیفیه بدء النسل منهما و قصه قابیل و هابیل و سائر اولادهما

 

Or conveniently find the English translation for it online here: http://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol-1-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/merits-adam-and-hawwa [search incest]. Although the translation seems to be incomplete and is missing some other narrations and material from the Arabic.

 

Wassalam

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  1. It is speaking about the fabrications and alterations of divine law Moses A.S came with of which the jews distorted.
  2. It is speaking about practical (non-moral) laws.

 

 

How did you come to these conclusions?

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Can you provide evidence stating otherwise. Unless, of course you believe in relative morality like that of the western world.

 

Brother, you know full well that a claim requires evidence. Your response reminds me of the whole theist-atheist discussion of "prove God exists" (atheist), followed by "prove to me He doesn't exist" (theist). Surely you can see how your claim requires proof? Let's not forget we are talking about Qur'an and its tafsir here. Interpreting the book of Allah (swt) is not a light matter…so, again, do you have any evidence for your statement?

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Brother, you know full well that a claim requires evidence. Your response reminds me of the whole theist-atheist discussion of "prove God exists" (atheist), followed by "prove to me He doesn't exist" (theist). Surely you can see how your claim requires proof? Let's not forget we are talking about Qur'an and its tafsir here. Interpreting the book of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is not a light matter…so, again, do you have any evidence for your statement?

No I don't have I evidence, but my basis is Morality does NOT change, therefore I derived these two possibilities, as the brother asked me what I think of this verse. It is how I will take it until I have valid evidence to believe otherwise. As I stated, if it is the case you believe God's morality changes, then you agree Good can be evil and evil can be good, nullifying the whole existence of a Just God. I will take it that you ignored to answer my question.

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No I don't have I evidence, but my basis is Morality does NOT change, therefore I derived these two possibilities, as the brother asked me what I think of this verse. It is how I will take it until I have valid evidence to believe otherwise. As I stated, if it is the case you believe God's morality changes, then you agree Good can be evil and evil can be good, nullifying the whole existence of a Just God. I will take it that you ignored to answer my question.

 

Well brother, your question didn't have a question mark, so I took it as a statement, not a question. I have no problem answering it: no, I do not believe in relative morality in the Western sense. But in Islam there does exist, according to some narrations and as can be understood from certain verses like the one you quoted, the idea that as societies change, certain laws can also change. For example, in the never-ending chess debate, there is a narration in which Imam Sadiq (as) states that chess is forbidden because his society knew it as a gambling tool. Therefore, some fuqaha state that in today's world it is not so, and therefore it is no longer haram. On Ayatullah Sistani's website, there is a similar example in which the Prophet (s) declares a certain animal to be haram to eat, but an examination of the context reveals that it was said during a battle in which the Muslims were in need of that animal, so due to circumstances it was made temporarily haram. These are just two examples. The issue of laws being abrogated during just a 23 year period during the Prophet's (s) life is another. 

 

Could that verse not be implying a change similar to these? Doesn't abrogation prove that in one context, something is good, yet not good or not as good in another? Why can't it be the same for the time of Adam's (as) children, as that would clearly be a one time, limited exception?

Edited by cc_30

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What contradiction?

 

Lets start from here

 

Surah Saad 38:71/72

{And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: ‘I am going to create a human (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud.  So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.}

 

you can clearly see that there were no humanly creatures before Adam....so all the ideas about other humans existing before adam who could have married adams sons and daugthers are false

 

now Surah Nisa 4:1

 

{O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul(Adam) and created from it its mate(hawwa) and dispersed from both of them many men and women. And fear Allah , through whom you ask one another, and the wombs. Indeed Allah is ever, over you, an Observer.}

 

Quran is clearly mentioning it was Adam Hawwa and their childern who populated earth. So the concept of humans mating with jins and hoors is also falsified and incest did take place

 

then we have this verse which clearly says how incest is forbidden with its details.....contradiction or not?

 

Surah Nisa 4:23

 

{Prohibited to you [for marriage] are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your [milk] mothers who nursed you, your sisters through nursing, your wives' mothers, and your step-daughters under your guardianship [born] of your wives unto whom you have gone in. But if you have not gone in unto them, there is no sin upon you. And [also prohibited are] the wives of your sons who are from your [own] loins, and that you take [in marriage] two sisters simultaneously, except for what has already occurred. Indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful}

Edited by Alizulfiqar

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Well brother, your question didn't have a question mark, so I took it as a statement, not a question. I have no problem answering it: no, I do not believe in relative morality in the Western sense. But in Islam there does exist, according to some narrations and as can be understood from certain verses like the one you quoted, the idea that as societies change, certain laws can also change. For example, in the never-ending chess debate, there is a narration in which Imam Sadiq (as) states that chess is forbidden because his society knew it as a gambling tool. Therefore, some fuqaha state that in today's world it is not so, and therefore it is no longer haram. On Ayatullah Sistani's website, there is a similar example in which the Prophet (s) declares a certain animal to be haram to eat, but an examination of the context reveals that it was said during a battle in which the Muslims were in need of that animal, so due to circumstances it was made temporarily haram. These are just two examples. The issue of laws being abrogated during just a 23 year period during the Prophet's (s) life is another. 

 

Could that verse not be implying a change similar to these? Doesn't abrogation prove that in one context, something is good, yet not good or not as good in another? Why can't it be the same for the time of Adam's (as) children, as that would clearly be a one time, limited exception?

 

Brother I understand. I am speaking about Morally grounded laws, like incest. Not practical laws. The concept of incest is founded upon moral principles. It cannot change in the system of God, because if it did, then morality becomes relative.

 

Lets start from here

 

Surah Saad 38:71/72

{And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: ‘I am going to create a human (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud.  So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.}

 

you can clearly see that there were no humanly creatures before adam....so all the ideas about other humans existing before adam who could have married adams sons are false

 

First of all, I am not a quranist so the argument from your perspective is void. Besides, this verse does not prove there couldnt have been humans prior to to Adams's A.S existence. Our hadiths do show there were humans before Adam A.S: http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa3297 & http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa6471

This verse just states, Allah will create 'a' human.

 

 

{O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul(Adam) and created from it its mate(hawwa) and dispersed from both of them many men and women. And fear Allah , through whom you ask one another, and the wombs. Indeed Allah is ever, over you, an Observer.}

 

Quran is clearly mentioning it was Adam Hawwa and their childern who populated earth. So the cconcept of humans mating with jins and hoors is also falsified and incest did take place

 

 

No one is not saying it wasnt Adam and his wife who started this "known" humanity. Your are jumping to a quick and false assumption. Where does it state mating with jinns or hoors did not happen with that of Adam's children? All this verses confirms is that they had many children.

 

Your argument is full of false assumptions.

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No I don't have I evidence, but my basis is Morality does NOT change, therefore I derived these two possibilities, as the brother asked me what I think of this verse. It is how I will take it until I have valid evidence to believe otherwise. As I stated, if it is the case you believe God's morality changes, then you agree Good can be evil and evil can be good, nullifying the whole existence of a Just God. I will take it that you ignored to answer my question.

 

So you turned that quranic verse into somthing of your own and pretended that you had a good proof to shut me up and may be win this argument....how pathethic is that.....its not about wining the argument....we are searching for true answer

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So you turned that quranic verse into somthing of your own and pretended that you had a good proof to shut me up and may be win this argument....how pathethic is that.....its not about wining the argument....we are searching for true answer

 

Um, you said it was a contradiction. There is no contradiction. I proved that. None of the verses you have quote goes against my interpretation, nor do they uphold your view. You are jumping to your own conclusions without explicit evidence.

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  1. It is speaking about the fabrications and alterations of divine law Moses A.S came with of which the jews distorted.
  2. It is speaking about practical (non-moral) laws.

 

 

i was talking about this.....you made this up on your own?

 

 

First of all, I am not a quranist so the argument from your perspective is void.

what does that even mean? how old are you really?

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i was talking about this.....you made this up on your own?

what does that even mean? how old are you really?

 

I explained to brother cc_30. All I am saying, is this issue has no importance to me, for it is not fundemntal to my existence or guidance. I just want to make clear, for those who believe incest is possible, is you are abolishing the divine system of Morality, into relative morality which nullifies the existence of God. Those two possible conclusions were derived on such a basis.

 

When I meant quranist, I meant, one, I dont take the quran fully literal, and two, the quran is not the only source of guidance, for we have divine hadith as well.

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  1. It is speaking about the fabrications and alterations of divine law Moses A.S came with of which the jews distorted.

 

 

you made this up for your convenience and you lied to all of us....and you are here telling us about morals and rule of god

 

i dont know why am i even answering to your lame self made distorted answers

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you made this up for your convenience and you lied to all of us....and you are here telling us about morals and rule of god

 

i dont know why am i even answering to your lame self made distorted answers

 

You are accusing me of lying brother? Okay fine. Im sorry that your reading comprehension skills are weak. For you were the one who addressed and asked MY OPINION on what the verses meant.

 

 

yes 'pure and scared' laws dont change....but then how do you see this verse in Quran?

 

Surah Al Imran 3:50

 

And [i have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me.

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You are accusing me of lying brother? Okay fine. Im sorry that your reading comprehension skills are weak. For you were the one who addressed and asked MY OPINION on what the verses meant.

i am not accusing you acutaly lied to all of us.....yes i asked you how you see that verse in quran but that does not mean somone can makeup a fake story and relate it to a quranic verse and try to defend his openions......if you dont have an answer you dont need to speak......that is absolutely pathethic on every level

tell me honestly you made that story yourself or not? simple question? or tell me the source if you found it somewhere in hadith?

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i am not accusing you acutaly lied to all of us.....yes i asked you how you see that verse in quran but that does not mean somone can makeup a fake story and relate it to a quranic verse and try to defend his openions......if you dont have an answer you dont need to speak......that is absolutely pathethic on every level

tell me honestly you made that story yourself or not? simple question? or tell me the source if you found it somewhere in hadith?

 

Your way of posts are so arrogant and rude. I will not bother responding to you anymore. Have a good day.

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Your way of posts are so arrogant and rude. I will not bother responding to you anymore. Have a good day.

 yes truth feels rude to people who lie......why dont you show me the source of your words and shut me up?.....dont run away like that

 

SOURCE? SOURCE? SOURCE? just one question

Edited by Alizulfiqar

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I have to say brother PureEthics answers make the most sense to me! Thanks for taking the time to respond.

 

You are welcome brother. inshAllah, what I am saying is true. Dont take my words as the truth. Judge for yourself :)

Edited by PureEthics

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(salam)

 

Brother I understand. I am speaking about Morally grounded laws, like incest. Not practical laws. The concept of incest is founded upon moral principles. It cannot change in the system of God, because if it did, then morality becomes relative.

 

I am not sure about what you mean by this? Are practical laws not based on any morals and are morally grounded laws not translated into practice? Is it moral for us to only have 4 permanent wives maximum - at a time, but for the Prophet (pbuh) he was morally allowed to have more? What is your evidence to suggest that "incest" being prohibited is based on a morally grounded law? What is this morally grounded law and where are you deriving it from? These are a few questions I am not sure I am picking up from your posts.

 

Wassalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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(salam)

 

 

I am not sure about what you mean by this? Are practical laws not based on any morals and are morally grounded laws not translated into practice? Is it moral for us to only have 4 permanent wives maximum - at a time, but for the Prophet (pbuh) he was morally allowed to have more? What is your evidence to suggest that "incest" being prohibited is based on a morally grounded law? What is this morally grounded law and where are you deriving it from? These are a few questions I am not sure I am picking up from your posts.

 

Wassalam

 

(salam) very valid questions. No, not all practical laws are based on morality. For example, eating certain foods. Time for prayer. So forth. Morality in essence is good and evil. Clearly, Muhammad A.S was a being who was the greatest morality [perfect]. Therefore, it is plausible that he was allowed more wives than us. I dont have textual or divine evidence, however, my basis lies in my own rational thought. For example, how is incest not based on morality? This idea of Ha-ya, dignity, hijab, mahram, namahram, why has Allah given such laws? Clearly the sharing factor is in regards to morality. This is how I see it. Is having sexual relations with your sister or brother a "good" thing? You tell me. Who defines this "good"? Clearly Allah. Therefore, is good not always good? It must be the case, if it is not, then good has been tainted with evil, and Islam is unstable. God becomes unjust and religion becomes relative. I never said there is a specific morally grounded law, but I uphold the quran to be such factor, thus one of my premises lies in the quranic system, given by God, which Allah has forbidden it.

 

I will leave it up the to reader to agree or disagree with my stance on this topic. I am just saying, if one believes God can change morality [any law that has a moral understand], than it becomes relative, and ultimately abolishes the system of God.

Edited by PureEthics

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I think this kind of questions are not useful for us, what's the result? and how we can prove our claim?

The point is that they need to marry with a girl and Allah let them to marry with some one. so Allah allowed them to do what they did. what's the matter?

This kind of questions don't help us at all. 

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I think this kind of questions are not useful for us, what's the result? and how we can prove our claim?

The point is that they need to marry with a girl and Allah let them to marry with some one. so Allah allowed them to do what they did. what's the matter?

This kind of questions don't help us at all. 

 

its an extreamly important question. It raises question about the perfection and scaredness of Quran. People like me need clear answers. Ulemas should not take issues like this lightly because there are so many other people, for them issues like these can become reason to raise question on religion and a point to start getting away from religion. specialy when people like Pureethics come here and try to pretend champions of islam and come up with their nonsence logic and try to win the arguments for no reason.....do you want young generation to raise questions like these and give them a reason to get away from islam?

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