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Alizulfiqar

Did Adams Children Committed Incest?

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 And this does not even fit the attributes of a sacred god and his sacred rules....because if you can change something for whatever reason then its not sacred.....sacred and pure is something which is untouchable and unchangeable....something constant like god himself.

 

This is not completely true. We know that during the Prophet's (saws) own life, laws were changed through abrogation. We also have verses like the following:

 

And [i have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me. (3:50)

 

So the point of Allamah Tabatabai (ra) stands as valid.

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You're very, very likely taking those sentences out of context.  I don't have time to look up the context right now, but... okay, I decided to take 1 minute to look it up, and I see that the translation I found uses the word "assumption", not conjecture.

 

since you dont have time to look up....i did look up Suran Yunus and this statement is more like a universal statement in there...and it

can be seen without context.....either way it means 'conjecture' or 'assumptions' are not truth. Assumption is synonym of conjecture so it doesn't make any difference at all what you may want to call it.

 

And no one here is assuming.  Anyway, it's a long surah and has a lot of context, so you need to be careful when just picking out sentences.

 

The fact is, for an issue like this, there is no certain answer, and you can't expect absolute certainty for everything.

look right there.... you say no one is assuming and then you say there is no certain answer.....contradiction in just two lines....think about it

 

and yes i do expect absolute perfection and certainity when it comes to faith.....Allah said Qur'an is perfect and it has no contradiction and then i see these ambiguities and it doesn't make any sense to me.

It is not conjecture exactly. I have seen hadith from Bihar Al Anwar saying that Allah(s.w.a) sent down Houris to be wives of the first generation of descendants of Prophet Adam(a.s). Al Majlisi even gave names of some of the Houris. This is hadith, but how strong are these hadith, no exactly sure, that is why I said there is no definitive answer. Conjecture is an idea in which there is no evidence, or very little scant evidence for. There is some evidence from hadith to back up the theory above. 

 

As for the second theory, there is scientific evidence for this. So it is not conjecture either, but it is also not certainty(Haqq). Take it for what it is, a theory. To call it conjecture is not accurate. There is more evidence for the Houri theory than for the other one. 

 

'conjecture' is something which has no evidence or weak evidence.....a theory based on speculative pieces of information is considered weak evidence and all he theories we have seen so far fall in the same category, hence they are all conjectures. Now just look at those marked sentence you have said....look how contradictory they are....and surly it doesn't need an answer.

 

can we have the scientific evidence you are talking about the second theory?

 

how can you say so surly that it was not incest? any proofs?

 

 

 

 

This is not completely true. We know that during the Prophet's (saws) own life, laws were changed through abrogation. We also have verses like the following:

 

And [i have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me. (3:50)

 

So the point of Allamah Tabatabai (ra) stands as valid.

 

Allaham Tabatabi didn't use this particular verse in Tasfsir Al-mezan to support his idea, instead he selected three other verses which doesn't show Allah changing rules......but lets say we go with this verse and Tabatabai's idea then we have to agree that it was incest?right?

 

we are all breed of incest?

Edited by Alizulfiqar

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Chaotic muslim made a post

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235026589-islam-and-science/

 

"I often sense anow air of confrontation when these tow topics are brought next to each other in English forums, something that's is to the contrary of how these two topics are discussed in Islamic countries forums."

 

This topic is an simple example of why there is such conflict.  Because peoples interpretations of the Quran go against reality and science. Peoples interpretations somehow bring them into a position where they are against well established, well understood concepts in science.

 

For example, we know there were other human like beings throughout the history of mankind.  Their bones are in the millions scattered across the planet. Its not like you hear on the internet about one pig tooth being used to prove that neanderthals existed...no, we are talking about countless fossils, masses of them, communities of them.  They were there and there is no rational way to deny this. Yet people in this very topic are not aware of this, but they are speaking as if they are knowledgeable.

 

I will leave it at that for now.  There is a lot that isnt being said in this topic, that people appear to not be aware of, with respect to genetics in particular.  The answers to the origins of humanity are literally within ourselves.

 

Heres a topic from some time ago on it.

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234990075-adam-and-eve/

 

For the person posting below me, its not the mods i am referencing.

 

its not a science vs islam issue....the question has nothing to do with science

The jinn are not much different than us, we could interact with them before the flood of Noah, after the flood they were put into a different dimension

 

jinns are not us.....they are completely different from us.....and there is no proof of us humans mating with other creatures

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its not a science vs islam issue....the question has nothing to do with science

jinns are not us.....they are completely different from us.....and there is no proof of us humans mating with other creatures

Hayatul quloob, and bihar al anwar? Not proof enough for you?

Edited by rafidhi1986

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Adam's children married each other.  Incest in itself is not immoral in any universal sense, it is simply forbidden in the Islamic law.   In the same way, just like it is forbidden for a Muslim to sip wine does not make it immoral in the universal sense.   In fact in many ways it can be seen as a virtue to be able to drink in moderation.  So incest is wrong only in the specific context of the Muhammadan Shariah.     


Hayatul quloob, and bihar al anwar? Not proof enough for you?

Tabatabbai says such a thing did not happen.  Adam's children married each other.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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No Adams children did NOT do incest with each other, Allah sent down special women from the heavens to the earth to them so they could marry and have children..!

How could anybody think like this?!

It's so sick...

Allah created us pure so you really think that our beginnings of creation will be in Haram?! NO No my dear brothers and sisters...

Edited by Mommin

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But I just take Majlisi opinion that Adams children mated with Jinn.

Makes religious sense to me and also agrees with the Torah, and book of enoch....

 

This is Majlisis' opinion? Please share his statement in context with supporting ahadith that he uses, if possible.

 

Could you also provide references to this in the Torah and Book of Enoch. Much appreciated. 

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This is Majlisis' opinion? Please share his statement in context with supporting ahadith that he uses, if possible.

 

Could you also provide references to this in the Torah and Book of Enoch. Much appreciated.

On the thread or in pm?

And yes its in bihar al anwar

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its not a science vs islam issue....the question has nothing to do with science

 

The question has a lot to do with science because the answers are already well understood, through science. People simply aren't aware of this. This is a fine example of why religion clashes with science (with respect to chaotic muslims topic).

 

On strictly scientific grounds, we are well aware that people, as we are today (and since we have existed), bred with other similar people and in some cases, interbred with other genetically distinct human like beings. If there was any incest, it would have been short lived or between relatively distant cousins.

 

The OP seems to be asking for an Islamic perspective in particular though, and with that, it doesnt appear as though the Quran clarified on the topic.  And so we see people conjuring up ideas about humans interbreeding with beings that now exist in another dimension?  This is purely unscientific speculation.  So there is where the conflict is.  Its between what is well understood in science, and what people are speculating when they aren't aware of what is already established in science.

Edited by iCambrian

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The Quran is a book of guidance, not a book of science. We are encouraged to seek all types of knowledge, not only religious knowledge.

 

 

It contains what we know not. Various in it's knowledge, rather than one subject. A quick judgment you made. And as for the idea of evolution, it's clear through the verses, such does not exist for human beings. Second, if you have had any experience with biological science, you will understand, that there are may holes in the theory. If you wan't to discuss the issue you can PM me. 

 

___________________________________

(wasalam)

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Allaham Tabatabi didn't use this particular verse in Tasfsir Al-mezan to support his idea, instead he selected three other verses which doesn't show Allah changing rules......but lets say we go with this verse and Tabatabai's idea then we have to agree that it was incest?right?

 

we are all breed of incest?

 

The verses he quoted do not directly show that God changes rules, but they reveal that hukm in its ultimate sense belongs to God, which implies that He can change it if He desires. The verse I quoted, and verses about abrogation, show that part of that ownership is in fact changing laws at times. Also, have you read the individual tafsir of each of those verses in al-Mizan? He may actually discuss the issue using other verses. We shouldn't say for sure until we have read each one. At times Tabatabai (ra) left certain discussions for one particular place in his tafsir to avoid repetition (see for example his discussion of 'Alif Lam Mim,' if I'm not mistaken…)

 

As far as incest goes, it doesn't bother me if that what is what God decreed. A lot of times our objections to these things are more culture-based. For example, in the United States marrying one's cousin is a sign of being uneducated, white trash and there are jokes about Southerners doing it and ending up with mentally disabled children. Yet in the Arab and Muslim world it is practiced very commonly, especially amongst Sayyids. It was just one particular context. I'm not discounting the whole 'houri' idea, as it definitely could be a possibility, it just seems very far fetched to me, especially considering they are heavenly, otherworldly beings, and therefore would not possess the same anatomy as us, allowing birth to take place. Unless God somehow changed their constitution for earth. Who knows...

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What is immoral about incest between siblings?  I fail to understand.  

 

There is a huge problem with Adam's children marrying non-humans.  This would mean that we (his descendants) are not purely human.  And this creates a huge theological problem with respect to the fact that God says "humans have been created in the best of form" (ahsane taqweem).  If the Prophet Muhammad (S) being a descendant of Adam is not a pure human then it would mean that Muhammad (S) is not created in the best form.  And this is wrong obviously.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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What is immoral about incest between siblings?  I fail to understand.  

 

There is a huge problem with Adam's children marrying non-humans.  This would mean that we (his descendants) are not purely human.  And this creates a huge theological problem with respect to the fact that God says "humans have been created in the best of form" (ahsane taqweem).  If the Prophet Muhammad (S) being a descendant of Adam is not a pure human then it would mean that Muhammad (S) is not created in the best form.  And this is wrong obviously.  

 

You are absolutely disgusting! What is immoral about incest? The fact that it destroys the gene system in such a way the child becomes mentally and genetically handicapped. Or the fact that Allah swt condemns it in the holy quran, unconditionally. There is a reason why Allah created Adam A.S and Eve A.S not "Adam and Eve his sister".

 

Why can Allah not have created other beings? Why could there have not been other humanely creatures?  http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa3297

Suppose they did marry Jinns or another creature. Can Allah not make their children purely human? What is clearly evident is we are all human in the full sense. Therefore, it must be so that how ever we came through, the children of Adam's children bore humans.

 

(wasalam)

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Or the fact that Allah swt condemns it in the holy quran, unconditionally. 

 

 

^ this point is actually irrelevent to the discussion

 

PureEthics, you've misunderstood what ethereal has said.

 

 

I think he was hinting at: if Allah allowed x for a certain time (even temporarlly) then x was morally acceptable. 

 

For example, it was once morally acceptable to execute somone who refused to observe and continuously break the Sabbath, under the Sharia of Moses [as]. This law of observance, and subsequently it's consequence for lack of adherence, was not placed in the Sharia of Muhammad al-Mustafa [sawa]. Something not acceptable now was previously acceptable. It is Allah who decides what is right and wrong. Not people. 

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^ this point is actually irrelevent to the discussion

 

PureEthics, you've misunderstood what ethereal has said.

 

 

I think he was hinting at: if Allah allowed x for a certain time (even temporarlly) then x was morally acceptable. 

 

For example, it was once morally acceptable to execute somone who refused to observe and continuously break the Sabbath, under the Sharia of Moses [as]. This law of observance, and subsequently it's consequence for lack of adherence, was not placed in the Sharia of Muhammad al-Mustafa [sawa]. Something not acceptable now was previously acceptable. It is Allah who decides what is right and wrong. Not people. 

 

Morality does not change! The interaction between sexes and genealogy is founded upon moral principles. Your example is rather dubious. Are you deriving this from jewish law? If you believe Allah has set forth relative morality then this whole religion crumbles. What is in essence good can never be/become evil.

Edited by PureEthics

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Salam,

Morality does not change! The interaction between sexes and genealogy is founded upon moral principles. Your example is rather dubious. Are you deriving this from jewish law? If you believe Allah has set forth relative morality then this whole religion crumbles. What is in essence good can never be/become evil.

Then what about things which only became prohibited with Muhammad (s), like let's say, alcohol? Edited by realizm

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Salam,

Then what about things which only became prohibited with Muhammad (s), like let's say, alcohol?

 

 Regardless, I myself am in the opinion that alcohol was never halal.

 

Edit: I meant practices. Alcohol is the root of evil therefore evil.

 

Imam ‘Ali ar-Riďa (a.s.) has informed,

 

“Allah knows better that every Prophet who has been sent by Him did not have his religion completed till wine was prohibited. Wine has always been Harām.”7

 

In the present Old and New testaments, even after so many interpolations and alterations, there is considerable criticism of alcoholism.

“Don’t associate with people who drink too much wine...”8

Edited by PureEthics

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(salam)

 

Generally our ahadith suggest that incest did not take place. However, what they do suggest (i.e. kids were married off to Huris or Jinns and there is also a common third opinion now that they might have married the Nethanderals) is not so easy to explain either, since it brings about many theological questions.

 

Wassalam

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You are absolutely disgusting! What is immoral about incest? The fact that it destroys the gene system in such a way the child becomes mentally and genetically handicapped. Or the fact that Allah swt condemns it in the holy quran, unconditionally. There is a reason why Allah created Adam A.S and Eve A.S not "Adam and Eve his sister".

 

Why can Allah not have created other beings? Why could there have not been other humanely creatures?  http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa3297

Suppose they did marry Jinns or another creature. Can Allah not make their children purely human? What is clearly evident is we are all human in the full sense. Therefore, it must be so that how ever we came through, the children of Adam's children bore humans.

 

(wasalam)

 

Disgusting or whatever but this is the only logical answer we have. Even Alama Tabatabai favors this idea with quranic refrences....but still these are all our assumptions so i really dont know why Quran doestn talk about this issue. All the other theories about jinn and other cretures might fit our minds beautifully but doesnt have any strong evidence to support the idea.

Morality does not change! The interaction between sexes and genealogy is founded upon moral principles. Your example is rather dubious. Are you deriving this from jewish law? If you believe Allah has set forth relative morality then this whole religion crumbles. What is in essence good can never be/become evil.

 

yes 'pure and scared' laws dont change....but then how do you see this verse in Quran?

 

Surah Al Imran 3:50

 

And [i have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me.

Edited by Alizulfiqar

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Disgusting or whatever but this is the only logical answer we have. Even Alama Tabatabai favors this idea with quranic refrences....but still these are all our assumptions so i really dont know why Quran doestn talk about this issue. All the other theories about jinn and other cretures might fit our minds beautifully but doesnt have any strong evidence to support the idea.

 

yes 'pure and scared' laws dont change....but then how do you see this verse in Quran?

 

Surah Al Imran 3:50

 

And [i have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me.

 

  1. It is speaking about the fabrications and alterations of divine law Moses A.S came with of which the jews distorted.
  2. It is speaking about practical (non-moral) laws.

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  1. It is speaking about the fabrications and alterations of divine law Moses A.S came with of which the jews distorted.
  2. It is speaking about practical (non-moral) laws.

 

 

okay moral laws dont change....then where do we stand? what other reason do we have for growth?

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okay moral laws dont change....then where do we stand? what other reason do we have for growth?

 

huh? Are you saying God must misguide you before you are guided? What nonsense. The growth is instilled in us by following the path of God, and realizing His purpose in creating us. Which is to strive towards Allah, towards the way of prophets and imams, towards perfection. In that we will achieve total goodness, and securing our ordained place in the after life, heaven. The growth lies in understand God and following His commands.

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huh? Are you saying God must misguide you before you are guided? What nonsense. The growth is instilled in us by following the path of God, and realizing His purpose in creating us. Which is to strive towards Allah, towards the way of prophets and imams, towards perfection. In that we will achieve total goodness, and securing our ordained place in the after life, heaven. The growth lies in understand God and following His commands.

 

you still havent answered the question? REASON if it was not incest? what else?

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you still havent answered the question? REASON if it was not incest? what else?

 

 

Why can Allah not have created other beings? Why could there have not been other humanely creatures?  http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa3297

Suppose they did marry Jinns or another creature. Can Allah not make their children purely human? What is clearly evident is we are all human in the full sense. Therefore, it must be so that how ever we came through, the children of Adam's children bore humans.

 

(wasalam)

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Why can Allah not have created other beings? Why could there have not been other humanely creatures?  http://www.islamques...question/fa3297

Suppose they did marry Jinns or another creature. Can Allah not make their children purely human? What is clearly evident is we are all human in the full sense. Therefore, it must be so that how ever we came through, the children of Adam's children bore humans

 

when you use words like 'suppose' in the begining of your sentecne to support an idea, it becomes conjecture and there is no place for conjectures in islam.

Edited by Alizulfiqar

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when you use words like 'suppose' in the begining of your sentecne to support an idea, it becomes conjecture and there is no place for conjectures in islam.

 

Um I never stated it is a fact o_O Im just supposing these ideas because there is no clear answer.

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Um I never stated it is a fact o_O Im just supposing these ideas because there is no clear answer.

 

thats the problem we have....NO CLEAR ANSWER......why do we have this ambiguity in quran then?....why such a sensitive piece of information is left for our imagination?

Edited by Alizulfiqar

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