Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Should Muslims Teach Their Kids Art?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVwbeQjafuA

 

Any artistic Muslims in the house ? 

Muslim Artists say I!
 
Aren't we so.... 
under rated .... 
 
Like if you agree ^_^
 
I was given a few questions 
to ponder over by a fellow hijabi artist, 
writer! sister Na'ima B Robert-
 

Do You Agree?

Anything To Add?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm studying Illustration at the moment. Coming from the Middle East to Europe there is A LOT of difference in what is taught. Nudity (anatomy) is mandatory unless of religious reasons (which I explained and thank Allah they accepted to excuse me out of classes). And there seems to be A LOT of sexuality in nearly all of the things they teach. I don't know if it's the perverted mentalities or simply art in the west.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know exactly what is meant by "teach art". Every child is innately an artist, and some keep this talent into adulthood and develop the skills to do amazing things with it. Does "teach art" mean view art? Does it mean to encourage creativity? Or does it mean to take formal classes and study the styles and lives of past masters?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know exactly what is meant by "teach art". Every child is innately an artist, and some keep this talent into adulthood and develop the skills to do amazing things with it. Does "teach art" mean view art? Does it mean to encourage creativity? Or does it mean to take formal classes and study the styles and lives of past masters?

To teach them the skills.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ShiaChat has a topic that you might be interested in. Islamic Art Thread:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think one of the greater tragedies that has befallen the Muslim world in general is the decline of much of its traditional arts.

 

However, I think in the Shi'a world, thanks to private and public museums in Iran, there has been something of a revival. I think in the West, Shi'a Muslims should put more effort into learning the classical arts and I also believe that people coming back from Iran and other parts of the Shi'a world should make an effort to bring prints of religious artwork here. It not only helps breathe spiritual life into the community, but it can also be useful for propagation. For example, Qajari-era style coffeehouse paintings of the Battle of Karbala and other religious scenes would definitely find an appreciation among Catholics and Orthodox in the United States and help in creating a familiar atmosphere to facilitate dialogue.

 

It also wouldn't hurt to explore art trends in the West and have more serious discussion on how they may be adapted, particularly when it comes to graphic design, graffiti art and calligraphy.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course Muslim families should indulge in Art. I grew up with Art all around me and started drawing at a young tender age. Both my parents are artist and I too am pursuing a career in Art. Currently working in a Game Development Studio as a Concept Artist. My work/art is one of the great blessing from Allah. I get up everyday with an eagerness to get to work i.e. paint characters, aliens, monsters, create universes, etc. In brief Art is a great essential element of life and must be injected in ones life!

 

Regarding Nudity in Art, I think its soley on ones intention. Understand that nude models/references help in understanding and practicing anatomy. 

 

You guys can check some of my mother work at- https://www.facebook.com/SalvaRasoolArt

 

I wish I can share some of my latest work, but as I am under a contract from my studio that does not permit me to show any current work(till game release) I cannot do the same. But you guys can check out my Linkedin Profile at- 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Art is still very much alive in the Islamic world, without even needing to resort to drawing living beings.  Look at the incredible designs of some of the mosques being built around the world, esp in Iran and the Emirates or the new forms of calligraphy that are being developed.

 

As for calligraphy not being as popular amongst the youth as a few generations ago, this is a casualty of an ever increasing computerized world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course Muslim families should indulge in Art. I grew up with Art all around me and started drawing at a young tender age. Both my parents are artist and I too am pursuing a career in Art. Currently working in a Game Development Studio as a Concept Artist. My work/art is one of the great blessing from Allah. I get up everyday with an eagerness to get to work i.e. paint characters, aliens, monsters, create universes, etc. In brief Art is a great essential element of life and must be injected in ones life!

 

Regarding Nudity in Art, I think its soley on ones intention. Understand that nude models/references help in understanding and practicing anatomy. 

 

You guys can check some of my mother work at- https://www.facebook.com/SalvaRasoolArt

 

I wish I can share some of my latest work, but as I am under a contract from my studio that does not permit me to show any current work(till game release) I cannot do the same. But you guys can check out my Linkedin Profile at- 

Salam,

I follow the Islamic Art Magazine page on Facebook and I think I saw an article about your mother's work. The pieces are great. Nice environment you must have been brought up in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salam,

I follow the Islamic Art Magazine page on Facebook and I think I saw an article about your mother's work. The pieces are great. Nice environment you must have been brought up in.

 

Oh that great. Dint know her work got featured in it. I am blessed with a healthy upbringing in which my folks understand what I intend to puruse. That being said making a career in Art is not an easy task whatsoever. At times I feel its as competitive and challenging as Medicine or Engineering in which one has to constantly practice to become better, more like aiming to become a top class Basketball player.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Of course Muslim families should indulge in Art. I grew up with Art all around me and started drawing at a young tender age. Both my parents are artist and I too am pursuing a career in Art. Currently working in a Game Development Studio as a Concept Artist. My work/art is one of the great blessing from Allah. I get up everyday with an eagerness to get to work i.e. paint characters, aliens, monsters, create universes, etc. In brief Art is a great essential element of life and must be injected in ones life!

 

Regarding Nudity in Art, I think its soley on ones intention. Understand that nude models/references help in understanding and practicing anatomy. 

 

You guys can check some of my mother work at- https://www.facebook.com/SalvaRasoolArt

 

I wish I can share some of my latest work, but as I am under a contract from my studio that does not permit me to show any current work(till game release) I cannot do the same. But you guys can check out my Linkedin Profile at- 

 

Game artist here too, glad to met another one here :)!

 

Regarding nudity, I do believe the same. It depends on you if you see anything sexual in it. But definitely anatomy should be mastered for better results in character design.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seriously? You have no issue with it?

 

In the context of depictions of fictional characters in paintings, illustrations or animation, with realistic or semi-realistic anatomy, I do not see why nudity should be a serious issue here since you are not technically looking at a real woman's virtue or depicting it. I think the only question in this case is whether the sensuality of the images is enough to encourage a person to do haram things. But I don't see why nudity in and of itself should be an issue if we are not spying a live woman or man unclothed, but only fictional representation of the male or female sex. In some cases, it can be educational such as with hyper realistic anatomical drawings like those in textbooks and in the case of art, the celebration of the positive aspects of the body or the depiction of real life situations intensified by the presence of nudity can be spiritually beneficial. For example, some erotic scenes in art I do not think would be sinful in and of themselves if the artwork does not depict the private activities of a real life couple but merely an imaginary one. In that case, it is merely a question of whether or not the work is tastefully done in such a way that one does not get the sense that one is looking at gratuitous pornography that depicts impermissible sexual acts or attitudes in a positive light. Heck, even if you did depict a real female/male model nude, this would not be an issue I think if it were your spouse or mahram and the artwork kept private or stylized to the point where no one would recognize him/her.

 

However, another example would be the use of nudity in art to convey a sense of despair, terror or depravity, such as depictions of women being stripped in order to create a much more sad and depressing picture. Live action films often try to do this, but my feeling is that a woman should not be forced to expose herself beyond the set limits for the sake of art when there exist healthier alternatives to make use of nudity for artistic purposes, in this case illustration and animation.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nudity harms the soul, even when thinking of it in a non-sexual way, you're training your eyes to accept seeing more skin than what is accepted to be seen.

 

I personally have 3D models (3D DAZ/ 3Ds Max) of the skeletal system and nervous system and I have a book by Bridgman about understanding the human anatomy from the clothed figure instead of the nude. Which, to me, seems more impressive since I am not really interested in showing skin in my illustrations.

 

I've tried self portraiture a lot. I tried painting skin, and to me it isn't as challenging as cloth, so I guess it isn't that much important for me to learn the nude figure. I have the resources and different methods of being able to draw anatomy, I'm just not interested that much. And reading into books like حلية المتقين it is really frowned upon to look at another male's private parts. I guess if you have a wife it might be easier but how would you even approach it? I'm not so sure many would accept your request.

 

If anyone actually has contacted an 'Alim about it, I'd be interested in the answer. I doubt I'll change my mind but I would love to know what the rulings are for learning anatomy and not just simply drawing a nude figure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nudity harms the soul, even when thinking of it in a non-sexual way, you're training your eyes to accept seeing more skin than what is accepted to be seen.

 

You are assuming that the rules which apply to witnessing a live man or woman necessarily apply to fictional representations in artwork. I do not see how you can do that exactly. The paintings, unless they are realistic depictions of real people, have no virtue which we must defend. We are not forbidden to look at non-mahrams nude because "nudity harms the soul," in fact I would say based on the hadith which deal with virtues of sexual intercourse, it is quite the opposite as a matter of fact, that looking upon a naked man or woman with the right eye and in the right place and time and within the proper confines of a legal relationship is a virtue and the appreciation of femininity and masculinity in their raw and pure form can probably be seen as a form of worship.

 

The reason we are forbidden to look at non-mahram's nude is to protect us from desires which may encourage us to sin as well as to reserve the sight of these things for those who have the right to see them. But nudity is not a bad thing nor is of course sexual intercourse or desire when it has the right heart.

 

With fictional representations of nude human beings you can not apply the rules regarding the modesty and virtue of real human beings because these are not human beings to whom it would make logical sense to apply these rules, they are artificial or natural pigments applied on canvas and paper in such a way as to present an image that stands in for a real human being. You can only say nudity in artwork is really forbidden if you either:

 

A.) Do not believe in the depiction of any living things.

 

or

 

B.) Believe that somehow all depictions of nudity will inevitably promote or lead to lewdness.

 

The first I will not address, but the second I will say is a pretty sweeping generalization of artistic depictions of nudity as well as their viewers. Some art which depicts nudity is not intended to be viewed with a lewd eye. Some artwork in the European middle ages, for example, depicted the Virgin Mary (as) breastfeeding the infant Christ (pbuh) with bare breasts exposed. These were usually part of private or semi-private devotional icons intended for people to meditate on and it was seen as a celebration of the maternal love of a mother towards her child, namely that of Mary towards Jesus, and since the Virgin Mary was seen by Europeans as their holy mother of a sort, looking upon her sacred breast was not really seen as a big deal for many people, even though as a matter of modesty, they were not usually exhibited publicly.  And simply because an artwork may cause one individual to experience an increase in the desire for the haram does not necessarily mean it is prohibited. A good analogy to draw here would be with the niqab. Most of our scholars say a niqab is not obligatory unless there is (reasonable) fear that lewdness will arise in people from a woman not wearing it. But even if this proves to be the case with one exceptionally beautiful woman whose appearance seems to be causing frustration, does this mean the woman is necessarily forbidden from showing her face or even that all women are forbidden from showing their faces in any and all circumstances outside of the home? Of course not. So, if a work of art in its sensuality has a habit of creating lewd desires in those who view it, this does not necessarily mean that the creation of this work of art or its display must be haram.

 

According to Ayatollah Sistani:

 

Question:Is it permissible to look at non-Muslim women who are naked or half-naked in television and its like for the purpose of fulfilling the inquisitive nature with no guarantee whether or not sexual desire will be aroused?Is it permissible to look at them in the streets not for the purpose mentioned above but for arousing [the sexual desire of] the husband towards his wife?

 

Answer: It is not permissible to look with lust at the naked live scenes, on television, etc. Rather, based on compulsory precaution, one must refrain from it at all times.

 

Question: Is it permissible to look at arousing scenes if one is sure of not attaining arousal?

 

Answer: If it is a naked [indecent] scene, then based on obligatory precaution, one should refrain from looking at it.

 

Source: http://www.sistani.org/english/book/46/2069/

 

Question: Is it permissible to buy a carving or statue of a totally naked human being, male or female? Is it permissible to buy a carving or statue of an animal and hang it for decoration?

 

Answer: There is no problem in the second [case of the animal]; as for the first case, if it is [considered a way of] promoting indecency, it is not allowed.

 

http://www.sistani.org/english/book/46/2073/

 

The first questions deal with live action programs, while the last question deals with three dimensional statues of nude males or females. In which case, if you followed Ayatollah Sistani in this matter, two dimensional depictions of nude human being either in animated films or television programs or in paintings should not be an issue unless there is reason to believe they are "promoting indecency."

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

 

Ibn al-Shahid: "Nudity ... your training your eyes to accept seeing more skin than is what accepted to be seen."

 

This reminds me of one post l made on "What have you watched recently" back in Sept/Oct l think. The Mod deleted it explaining l shouldn't recommend a film that has nudity in it.

My response was, ~" You are right. I am so accustomed to seeing it l didn't notice."  l didn't notice the nudity.

 

Now, a view on teaching art.

 

Begin thinking "mechanical drawing" and keep it within those parameters.

 

I took an art class, once. I kept the drawing l made of a vase, a building and something else non-living. Each of these is lslamically correct.

 

If it is biological, l view it as medical. Drawing a heart, nervous system, and so forth are fine.

 

The haram junk are like many above said: nudity, erotica, personifications, and such other cwap.

 

I read a hadith (Sahih al-Bukhari l think) which said Muhammad (pbuh) had a shirt or coat that had a picture of a saddle on the back.

 

A Note: I had a student who was 26 at the time. I do not remember how the class subject came to pornography, but she said something l have remembered a quarter century later: "It is so childish".

And when you think about what she said within a Child Development Model, she is correct. Like other child-stage developmental pre-occupations, people pre-occupied with porno never grew-up.

Edited by hasanhh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That type of practices (drawing natural poses by taking reference from naked people) don't necessarily have a sexual background. A doctor also sees many naked people, but that's part of his job. Some doctors may see their patients in a sexual way, others may not. The same happens with artists. You can discuss the necessity for naked models in art, but it has been proven very good to learn anatomy and organic shapes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Art and culture is the soul and the mark of a civilization. Muslims must preserve, promote and protect their art. Look at West which has almost lost art (replaced with "modern art" heh) and a people with no culture who have gone below the level of animals. When this dark age of materialism will end they will have left behind nothing but the stench of their cruelty, vanity and the rubble of their materials.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ A doctor saves lives. An artist doesn't. 

 

No offence but that is a narrow way to look at it. Art has many influences on cultures, civilizations as a whole. Growing up we have always been taught to look at art as a field for the eccentrics (or a career which would not pay well, which is so wrong). Saving lives is important but Art and other fields have its equal importance in the overall development of society. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No offence but that is a narrow way to look at it. Art has many influences on cultures, civilizations as a whole. Growing up we have always been taught to look at art as a field for the eccentrics (or a career which would not pay well, which is so wrong). Saving lives is important but Art and other fields have its equal importance in the overall development of society. 

 

Yes, that is a very narrow way to look at art if you do not see it in the context I said it. Art is important but its not a necessity, neither is looking at nudes to master arts a necessity for the development of Arts. Other than that I agree with what you said...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, that is a very narrow way to look at art if you do not see it in the context I said it. Art is important but its not a necessity, neither is looking at nudes to master arts a necessity for the development of Arts. Other than that I agree with what you said...

 

I would disagree with that. Art is absolutely necessary in any culture or society. Art provides a means of transmitting and communicating ideas and inculcating values. Without art, without that expressive element to religion that manifests itself in literature, poetry, painting, furnishing, music or other things, values gradually begin to disintegrate.

 

 

Post-classical Islamic aesthetics is more secular, revolving around particulars, offering specific scenes and narratives, drawing attention to themselves, while classical aesthetics is sacred, hinting at an idea or general practice, always tranquil and transparent, even when depicting movement and figures. 

 

I would disagree with this. While it is true that one sees a gradual increase in "secular painting" particularly in the  late Qajar period, the Safavid and Qajar era artists still incorporated much sacred symbolism into their works, even as they were coming under the influence of Renaissance and post-Renaissance styles and it was during the Qajar era in particular that one sees a heavy increase in the amount of religious paintings, designed to illustrate popular Shi'ite spiritual themes and events. It was in fact the increased activity of ta'ziyeh culture that is heavily responsible for the more sensual art. You also have the shamail artwork increase during this time among Iranian and Indian Shi'ite communities, that is the pocket or home devotional icons of the Imams or other saints' visages.

 

Around the end of the Safavid era, I think you begin to see a shift of focus in the pictorial arts in the Shi'ite world, and I wouldn't say that shift was not so much towards secularization (though that may have been the case for some) but more towards an emphasis on the humanity and passionate elements of Shi'ism. During the Qajar era, this becomes very noticeable, but the phenomenon dates at least a century before them.

 

As I said, passion plays became more of a central focus of Shi'i piety during this period and so there was a greater need I think for art that accompanied passion plays and literature that reflected the tragedy, the sorrow and suffering of religious figures. While the painters of this period may have taken a few pointers from Christian iconography and European styles of painting like what we see in the paintings that adorn the Vank Cathedral in Isfahan, the themes and symbolism were uniquely Shi'a and I think adoption of a more sensual painting techniques was itself a perfectly natural byproduct of the Shi'a consciousness. Likewise, in devotional icons during this period, be they Indian or Persian, one might say that people took more seriously the maxim that goes "Looking at the face of Ali (as) is a form of worship," as many such images were used in ritual practices of dhikr. The new art techniques would also be applied to depictions of scenes from classic literature such as the Shahnameh. The point I think here is that the desire to depict and reflect the humanity of holy figures was the main motivation for the development of such sensual Renaissance-like art in the Shi'a world and much like early Renaissance Catholic art, this art is not devoid of its own symbolism or precision which is primarily rooted in the Shi'a tradition, nor did it lead to an immediate death of other less anthropomorphic arts, as we can see in the architecture and calligraphy of the period. We see the beginnings of Western artistic influences and the emergence of secular painting, some of which has little connection to the sacred arts, but the developments in art during the 1700's and 1800's, at least in the Shi'a world, were mainly motivated by religious concerns and feelings and most art up until the Pahlavi era still reflected these religious feelings and sentiments.

 

I think it's necessary to look at the trajectory of art in the Shi'a world a little differently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would disagree with that. Art is absolutely necessary in any culture or society. Art provides a means of transmitting and communicating ideas and inculcating values. Without art, without that expressive element to religion that manifests itself in literature, poetry, painting, furnishing, music or other things, values gradually begin to disintegrate.

 

Right, values begin to disintegrate... hmmm, therefore nudity and looking at naked people to master arts should be allowed, as that will really uplift the values in a society ?

 

If that is not what you meant then check my previous posts to get the context in which I said that Art is not a necessity or that Art does not save lives, that was in response to a post which equated a doctor looking at patients without clothes to artists looking at models without clothes. Otherwise... like you said, art is a necessary cultural element and I agree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lots of artists here alhamdulillah! 

 

My stance on nudity in art. I think it needs to be avoided as much as possible. Learning perfect anatomy is not worth it if it requires you to stare at a live nude model. For artists however, especially now that I am getting more into illustration, learning anatomy is important, but there are other ways to do it. I think looking at anatomy drawing books is infinitely better than nude models in terms of spirituality, and many times the really private parts are not even drawn in those books. Just avoid looking at any nude drawings as much as you possibly can, and no more than is necessary. I have no interest in drawing males luckily (girls are more fun), so it's not really as much of an issue for me. 

 

The idea that they even have classes, and require artists to take classes with live nude models just blows my mind--it goes against all notions of modesty and chastity and moral societies that Islam endorses. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A bit different, here's a little personal response

 

i think it depends on what you teach them. I accidentally signed up for Life drawing, not knowing it involved nudity. It was a few weeks before our exams and I thought I'd rather sit drawing then write pages and pages on cancer studies, frailty, immunology etc. 

Since it is a compulsory component in my course, I couldn't withdraw and just went with it. Plus it wasn't the first time I saw completely nude people, only this time they were alive. Honestly, you don't even think "omg that's a peepee!!", you just draw. With the woman, you couldn't even see her heeho, her belly just... it was like one of the titans on AoT. 

 

Mind you, I wasn't the only muslim sitting there, or the only hijabi. I think because we were made to see genitalia earlier on (catheter insertion/dissection/PR), we just grew immune to it...? 

 

I saw no benefit or didn't feel like I've improved myself much in anyway. I did enjoy getting my hands dirty with coal and graphite, I did improve my shading, and I did learn a few new techniques, but I could've done all of that without the nude models. 

I would NEVER encourage my child to go for life drawing. That "immunity" I mentioned, I find it appalling. You lose all your appreciation for God's creation. 3awras should remain private and hidden. I wouldn't want my children to forget that. I'm afraid workshops like these, chip away at this mentality. 

Then again, when I wanted to practice breast examination and had a few in my inner circle volunteer to help, I couldn't go through with it. So I guess I'm fine seeing naked strangers, but not naked people I know personally? 

Honestly, though it may seem strange, I was relieved to realise that I still blushed seeing a bare chested woman. 

 

BUT, if my child loved to draw anything but nude folk- yes, yes and yes! I usually draw cartoons and it works a little like "therapy". When you feel down or angry, you can express yourself through your drawing. It gives you a window to channel these emotions out of yourself, a way to let go. I would want my child to have that. If (s)he wanted to take it a little further and create their own language through art, they have my full support! So long they don't forget/lose touch with their reality. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest WhatIsWrongWithYouPeople

What is wrong with you people astaghfirullah that this is even a topic of discussion whether you can see what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made forbidden because it is a drawing.

You will be accountable for trying to bend the rules and get other people involved in your stupidity.

There is honestly something wrong with you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...