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In the Name of God بسم الله

How Was Allah Created?

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Salams Time is a facet of the contingent world and He is beyond space, time and matter. Being created or coming to being is a phenomenon that is in time (which is obvious from the use of the past tens

(salam)     He wasn't.   Wassalam

Because it is very offensive. Science is but our awareness. But this universe existed wither we were aware or not. Awareness of universe through science is but a secondary issue. Primary issue is the

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Brother/sister..

There is a hadith from Imam Baqir(AS) that can answer your question..

"Ponder about the creation of Allah, but don't ponder about Allah himself or you'll be ruined."

And for you here is a sermon of Imam Ali in Nahjul Balagha.

"Praise is due to Allah whose worth cannot be described by speakers, whose bounties cannot be counted by calculators and whose claim (to obedience) cannot be satisfied by those who attempt to do so, whom the height of intellectual courage cannot appreciate, and the diving’s of understanding cannot reach; He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed. He brought forth creation through His Omnipotence, dispersed winds through His Compassion, and made firm the shaking earth with rocks.

The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute. Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognizes His like, and who recognizes His like regards Him two; and who regards Him two recognizes parts for Him; and who recognizes parts for Him mistook Him; and who mistook Him pointed at Him; and who pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and who admitted limitations for Him numbered Him.

Whoever said in what is He, held that He is contained; and whoever said on what is He held He is not on something else. He is a Being but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation of movements and instruments. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence."

Wassalam,.

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I guess people are missing few already provided examples.

1. Pain

2. Emotions & Feelings

3. Taste

 

All exist but have no materialistic body. Why an infant loves mother's milk , who taught him to like it ? and what kind of likeness they have ?  Pain is always there can someone show size of pain ? body of pain ? Emotions fluctuate depends on situations .. but can we calculate these things ?  All the above are created one. Can someone explain the above three as a materialistic or in time ? If not then why are you trying to find the reason of God existence when we are still not able to see existence of above three created.

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there is no answer for this question if you detach yourself from religion for a moment. And if you don't believe in a religion then the question should not even matter if God is there or not. You may still want to have a reasonable answer but it will remain a hypothesis. So you will always have a blind answer.

 

why becasue human knowledge is simply an instrument to understand the observable universe around us and nothing more. All the terms we use here like 'time', 'beginning', 'end'

'creator', 'spirit' are simply terms to understand different phenomenons that we experience everyday. For example 'time' is simply an instrument to have a measureable reference point to understand different events and activities to keep ourselves oriented. Besides that time does not mean anything...similerly all the other terminologies in language are there to describe what is around us. Descriptions should never be mixed with explanations. Do we have explanation for things around us....NO. and never will be. why because the system of logic on which we rely on, only works in a closed system......and what exists outside the closed system is a mystery.

 

if you want to understand in detail why logic has limits, you can read about KURT GODEL's imcompletness theorem...which to date is a proof of why we will never be able to explain the existence of things around us.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems

 

so who created god?.....no one knows

what is the reason to live?......i dont know

Edited by Alizulfiqar
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For everything there needs to be a creator . As everything is either created or a creator .. 

But God is the first creator so logically it can not be created . 

Simple as that . 

what makes the first creator so special that it is not created?  In other words, what is it about God that doesn't make him something created and in need of a creator? Why is the first "creator" God, or what we mean by God?  Why cant it be something else (something we simply cannot imagine) which isn't created?         

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For everything there needs to be a creator . As everything is either created or a creator .. 

But God is the first creator so logically it can not be created . 

Simple as that . 

 This kind of logic simply cannot work for a problem like this.....as i said earlier the system of logic on which we rely on only works in a closed system of variables which are known to us. Anything outside this system is beyond our reach. You may want to think its 'logic' but its not.

Edited by Alizulfiqar
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 In other words, what is it about God that doesn't make him something created and in need of a creator? 

 

God created us , time and bodies . 

Look to it from this point , If God was created then who created Him ? you will be in a unlogical circle as there NEEDS to be a first creator .

 

 Why is the first "creator" God, or what we mean by God?

 

We mean the creator of us Allah " in Islam " but some religions can use the word for any being with super power . 

 

  Why cant it be something else (something we simply cannot imagine) which isn't created?  

 

      

We can not imagine God as God is not a body in first place . 

How can the creator of bodies be a one ?

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This kind of logic simply cannot work for a problem like this.....as i said earlier the system of logic we rely on only work in a closed system of variables which are known to us. anything outside this system is beyond our reach. You may want to think its 'logic' but its not.

 

Do you have a definition of " logic " ?

My mind accept that everything is either created or a creator , what about you ?

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SALAAM

the question is false. God should not and can not be created . i needed my father to be born and my father needed his and so on , and if this cycle continue without any end no one would be existed . so as we exist there is a need for One not in need of anyone to be created and that is God.

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I guess people are missing few already provided examples.

1. Pain

2. Emotions & Feelings

3. Taste

 

All exist but have no materialistic body. Why an infant loves mother's milk , who taught him to like it ? and what kind of likeness they have ?  Pain is always there can someone show size of pain ? body of pain ? Emotions fluctuate depends on situations .. but can we calculate these things ?  All the above are created one. Can someone explain the above three as a materialistic or in time ? If not then why are you trying to find the reason of God existence when we are still not able to see existence of above three created.

All of these are chemicals and neurotransmitters.

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Do you have a definition of " logic " ?

My mind accept that everything is either created or a creator , what about you ?

Logic should be seen as a system to solve philosophical and mathematical problems,  but the problem is that it has its own limits. We think logic and philosophy can solve all the problems in this universe and explain eveything....but they can not. I have suggested a link in my previous post to study the work of KURT GODEL who is considered to be the most influential logician and mathematician of 21st century and he explains in his theorem and acutually proves it how its impossible to solve problems like these or the problems of infinity. You should also look up for the 'liers paradox'....it explains the problem of logic

 

the part of your question that your mind accepts that everything is either created or has a creator.....yes you can think that way but what your mind says can not be proven in universal sense and you will never be able to support it by a valid precedence or an valid analogy(what i meant by valid is that an analogy which can be proven either by experiment or such an event has happend in the past and people can agree on it as an axiom)

 

Quran even says that the knowledge of 'Gaib' invisibile is only limited to Allah himself then i dont understand why people come up with their own incomplete logic.

 

i believe there is a creator but i have no logic to prove it.....its just instinctive

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All of these are chemicals and neurotransmitters.

I never heard this before .. :!!!:

So when we are crying and expressing our love for  Imam Hussain we are having Chemicals working in our brain ? or heart ? Due to those chemical reactions we become obedient to our Lord ?

 

May be more explanation on these things can give me more light on this issue. I will wait for your response. :)

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I never heard this before .. :!!!:

So when we are crying and expressing our love for  Imam Hussain we are having Chemicals working in our brain ? or heart ? Due to those chemical reactions we become obedient to our Lord ?

 

May be more explanation on these things can give me more light on this issue. I will wait for your response. :)

You are confusing conscious with emotions.

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When You think about the creator of this whole world without considering yourself here in this world, you will approach to Allah Almighty involuntary. But remember your search should be neutral and you should apply a law upon your thinking that you are not going to prove Allah Almighty and as you cannot. You just think neutrally like a human and consider that what is already explored and proved, about the realities of this world could be open about you. For this - you need a reliable guidance and many books gives you such a way to create neutral based platform to recognized Allah Almighty. Whenever you dare to search like in this manner,the Search of Allah Almighty will be starts from that point and conclude soon with Positive results. :shifty:

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My mind accept that everything is either created or a creator , what about you ?

 

If you are correct and if that were the case, you should be able to point to something that is created directly by God.

 

Can you? :)

Edited by Quisant
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@Quisant- can you disprove?

I saw an interesting caption you know,

"I'd rather believe God and die into nothingness than believe in nothing and face God in death."

^wise words up right there.

 

Interesting caption. However that would be embracing a deity simply because you are scared of it. Not exactly the most happy thought. Sounds like a divine dictatorship if you put it that way. Also on the point of disproving, it is not possible to disprove it, nor possible to prove it. We must use our best judgement to make a decision that puts a close certainty in something. Just my view.

 

Thanks :)

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@Quisant- can you disprove?

 

 

I cannot disprove magical Fairies at the bottom of the garden, but I don't believe they exist.
 
You are claiming that the supernatural exists, can you show me how the supernatural can be observed in the natural Universe?
A person cannot claim something exists and also at the same time say they have no evidence of its existence. 
 
If there is nothing observable about God, then it's the same as non-existence. 
 

 

I saw an interesting caption you know,

"I'd rather believe God and die into nothingness than believe in nothing and face God in death."

^wise words up right there.

 

 

Would you bet on God's valuing faked belief over honest skepticism?
 
Wslm.
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The other day, I smashed my laptop into 1000 pieces, then I put all those pieces in a bag, shook the bag... and now I drive a McLaren.

 

And the day after that, I forgot it was my little cousin's birthday, and I couldn't go grab a present, so I threw a grenade, and after it went off, I took the barbie house it made and gave it to my little cousin.

 

Oh man and that other time I traveled over to the sun and dropped a nuke, then a city was made that looks just like New York, on the sun! Maybe one day I'll invite you all over.

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Interesting caption. However that would be embracing a deity simply because you are scared of it. Not exactly the most happy thought. Sounds like a divine dictatorship if you put it that way. Also on the point of disproving, it is not possible to disprove it, nor possible to prove it. We must use our best judgement to make a decision that puts a close certainty in something. Just my view.

 

Thanks :)

 

It's not fear but wisdom to prepare beforehand. We must use our best judgement to be ready for the minor chance of something being true. If there is no afterlife then it doesn't matter what you do here, whether you lived happily or not. If it all has to end in nothingness then it's all meaningless any way. If there is no chance in hell that afterlife exists then your decision to enjoy life as you want would be an intellectual one but when there is even a minute chance that afterlife and God may exist then it is only poor judgement on your part not to prepare for it beforehand.

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It's not fear but wisdom to prepare beforehand. We must use our best judgement to be ready for the minor chance of something being true. If there is no afterlife then it doesn't matter what you do here, whether you lived happily or not. If it all has to end in nothingness then it's all meaningless any way. If there is no chance in hell that afterlife exists then your decision to enjoy life as you want would be an intellectual one but when there is even a minute chance that afterlife and God may exist then it is only poor judgement on your part not to prepare for it beforehand.

 

And if you embraced it simply for the fact of suspecting there being a chance of an after-life existing, such an omnipotent deity would not know that you are doing it for the sake of such?

 

I don't know what you mean by its all meaningless anyway. I dont think its fair to say that, I mean in my opinion we owe future generations some sort of interest bearing resources, and many people find meaning in family and friends. These are things I would find meaning in.

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And if you embraced it simply for the fact of suspecting there being a chance of an after-life existing, such an omnipotent deity would not know that you are doing it for the sake of such?

 

I don't know what you mean by its all meaningless anyway. I dont think its fair to say that, I mean in my opinion we owe future generations some sort of interest bearing resources, and many people find meaning in family and friends. These are things I would find meaning in.

 

Sure, but it's not a way of life so to say but it is an argument which establishes why choosing religion over godlessness is the wiser option of the two. It's basically a start on the journey of finding truth.

 

If you loose all your existence, everything you are, your thoughts, your personality, your body, everything becomes non-existent. So if that is afterlife then our actions here do not matter or possess any meaning. You may love your friends and family, but if you and them all have to end up in a valley of non-existence, there is no point in leaving behind 'interest bearing resources' for them since their ultimate destination is: non-existence.

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I understand what you are saying, but I do not know who you came to such an audacious conclusion. Sure the end result is non-existence, but we do these things for having a meaningful life while they do exist. I believe the sun will explode in four or five billion years, if I remember correctly. This will lead to non- existence for the human species anyways, assuming we survive that long. The reason we do things is not because there is a belief in afterlife, or there is an afterlife. But it is because there is an intrinsic relationship between parents and their offspring, and many people feel that they owe the future something. I do not understand how you came to the conclusion of their being no point. Can you care to explain?

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Yes you remember correctly that one day the sun will explode and life on earth will end, even in next ten years some cosmic event may wipe out the human race and that's just the thing; you're not even sure that the human race will survive the next hundred years and you are talking about investing in the future - a future that does not even exist for long and if it does it will all end in non-existence, so then why would any rational person spend all his life struggling for a better future for generations that he doesn't know will ever step on earth. As to love for parents and family, obviously it's part of human nature and basic instincts... if you're telling me we live loving our parents, having a community, doing our jobs and stuff then it's close to living like animals... who live because they have to live till they die. So they follow their natural tendencies and die when its time. You may or may not agree but I don't see any purpose of life of animals from their own point of view, of course they are purposeful for us and the nature but for their own selves it is just meaningless temporary existence. 

 
However, living such a life never bothers the animals but it does bother humans. Animals never worry themselves with the questions that we worry ourselves with and perhaps there is a reason why.
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Yes you remember correctly that one day the sun will explode and life on earth will end, even in next ten years some cosmic event may wipe out the human race and that's just the thing; you're not even sure that the human race will survive the next hundred years and you are talking about investing in the future - a future that does not even exist for long and if it does it will all end in non-existence, so then why would any rational person spend all his life struggling for a better future for generations that he doesn't know will ever step on earth. As to love for parents and family, obviously it's part of human nature and basic instincts... if you're telling me we live loving our parents, having a community, doing our jobs and stuff then it's close to living like animals... who live because they have to live till they die. So they follow their natural tendencies and die when its time. You may or may not agree but I don't see any purpose of life of animals from their own point of view, of course they are purposeful for us and the nature but for their own selves it is just meaningless temporary existence. 

 
However, living such a life never bothers the animals but it does bother humans. Animals never worry themselves with the questions that we worry ourselves with and perhaps there is a reason why.

 

 

Well we are evolved mammals so I guess if we were technically speaking we would be animals by definition. I think the reason why animals never worry about this question is ( well assuming they don't I dont think humans have a way of measuring of what animals are usually thinking on a greater than life scale, rather than a survival scale. We can presume animals do several things when they hunt or breed, but in terms of philosophical details I dont think we will ever know unless we find a way to communicate with them). I can't really respond to why, perhaps there will be a scientific explanation in the future, who knows, but all I know is that alot of us do have this feeling of doing something now for the future. Regardless of what this cause is, I think it would be very audacious to say that this could be attributed to a deity. At the very best we can say, we dont know, but hey some day I bet we will.

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So basically science says we are animals, 

Science will find if animals can think philosophically like us.

Since we are like animals according to current science therefore we should hold our philosophical thoughts and wait for science to uncover why animals can't think like us and why we think the way we do.

And finally, we all think of making a contribution to the future BUT science will find why we think like this.

 

Isn't that an awesome post, and let me tell you I love science myself but I believe it is there to broaden and give wings to our thinking rather than crippling it. And I doubt science will answer the WHYs you're looking for, as the WHY department is not Science's. Good luck, though.

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Yes science can potentially solve all that ( I say this with what we have viewed in scientific breakthrough in the past centuries). A time will come when we know the answer to many things, but our desire to know things will be infinite, there will be an infinite things we dont know and a finite amount we do. 

 

Philosophy is awesome, it lets us analyze certain things we cannot analyze with the sciences, and theoretically analyze some cases. Philosophy will always have its place with man kind as when we dont have good certain answers from the sciences we speculate, but always humans have broken through with many findings.

We went from astrology to astronomy, alchemy to Chemistry.

 

 

Thanks for the response :)

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@noob- i assume you know about rate of chemical reaction right? It starts quite fast and slows down.

Dont you think scientific breakthroughs atleast major ones, have come out less recently. Well it seems science is slowing down.

The recent major "achievments" i can remember are the probe landing on an asteroid/comet, supposed discovery of "Bosons" particle and antimatter.

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I understand what you are saying, but I do not know who you came to such an audacious conclusion. Sure the end result is non-existence, but we do these things for having a meaningful life while they do exist. I believe the sun will explode in four or five billion years, if I remember correctly. This will lead to non- existence for the human species anyways, assuming we survive that long. The reason we do things is not because there is a belief in afterlife, or there is an afterlife. But it is because there is an intrinsic relationship between parents and their offspring, and many people feel that they owe the future something. I do not understand how you came to the conclusion of their being no point. Can you care to explain?

Billion? I remember scientists putting the mark at 2.5 million years.

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Billion? I remember scientists putting the mark at 2.5 million years.

 

Million is much much too soon

@noob- i assume you know about rate of chemical reaction right? It starts quite fast and slows down.

Dont you think scientific breakthroughs atleast major ones, have come out less recently. Well it seems science is slowing down.

The recent major "achievments" i can remember are the probe landing on an asteroid/comet, supposed discovery of "Bosons" particle and antimatter.

 

If anything, id say research is accelerating and discoveries are becoming more prominent. Granted, you dont hear about major theories like relativity or evolution coming out, but within various fields, its almost mind boggling trying to keep up with discoveries now and days...

 

You should google "this week in science".  Every week this group posts a handful of prominent discoveries

Edited by iCambrian
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And not that its particularly important, but im not so sure our sun has the mass it needs to supernova.  I'm not sure if this is what noob was referring to. Or maybe he was referring to one of those...crunch things that stars do.  Beats me...

Edited by iCambrian
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We went from astrology to astronomy, alchemy to Chemistry.

 

Ahan, and where did we go from 'logic' ? what is the 'advanced' version of it ?

 

Yes science can potentially solve all that ( I say this with what we have viewed in scientific breakthrough in the past centuries). A time will come when we know the answer to many things, but our desire to know things will be infinite, there will be an infinite things we dont know and a finite amount we do. 

 

The basic questions which have existed in human minds since time unknown still exist today. Who we are, why we're here, why things are the way they are, why we think, why we love, why the laws of universe work the way they do. Scientists have written detailed accounts of what happened during the first few seconds and first few minutes after the big bang, and we know today what goes on in our cells at the microscopic level. Still, the basic questions stand unanswered in the books of science. Because science has given you the dots and in the future it will only give you more dots - it is upto you to connect them, and the connecting takes logic.

 

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