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In the Name of God بسم الله

Ahmad Shirazi Spreading Ghuluww?

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Salams,

 

There is a video on youtube by Salafis (please ignore some of the offensive edits and titles in the video) where they uploaded a clip from Ahmad Shirazi claiming that Imam Husayn (as) is the supreme judge of the world of barzakh in which he is responsible for all the decisions in it:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqudggrdvOc

 

وَ عَنْهُ، عَنْ مُوسَى بْنِ سَعْدَانَ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ الْقَاسِمِ، عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ أَحْمَدَ الْمَعْرُوفِ بِالْمِنْقَرَيِّ، عَنْ يُونُسَ بْنِ ظَبْيَانَ، عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ: «إِنَّ الَّذِي يَلِي حِسَابَ النَّاسِ قَبْلَ يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ الْحُسَيْنُ بْنُ عَلِيٍّ ع فَأَمَّا يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ فَإِنَّمَا هُوَ بَعْثٌ إِلَى الْجَنَّةِ أَوْ بَعْثٌ إِلَى النَّارِ»

 

The only source for this hadith is an abridgment made of Basa'ir al-Darajaat (Mukhtasar al-Basaa'ir) by Hassan al-Hilli .. a shady source of hadiths.

 

Every single person in the chain of transmission is weak and it is basically composed of liars and ghulaat whom are kuffar according to the standards of our Imams. The matn of the hadith is clearly a fabrication of the mufawwada, those accused of being mushriks by our Imams.

 

For those who don't know, the ghulaat were various groups throughout Shi'i history that exaggerated the status of the Imams which almost always led them to kufr. They were known for raising the Imams to the level of divinity. The Imams said they were kuffaar (disbelievers) and outside of the fold of Islam.

 

The mufawwada were various groups of people in Shi'i history that believed that Allah delegated some His powers to the Imams in the world. The Imams called the mufawwada mushriks (polytheists) as their beliefs were tantamount to Allah setting up partners in this world.

 

These groups of people fabricated hadiths and despite the efforts of many of our scholars, some still made it through into our books. 

 

Unfortunately, these tendencies still exist today in all shapes and forms and this thread is an example of one and it should serve as a warning to our honest brothers and sisters who want to live in the fold of true Tawheed as taught by the Qur'an and our Prophet Muhammad (s). 

Edited by Al-Khattati
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There are quite a few video clips of his floating around the Internet where he says strange things. I'm not even sure this is in the top 5 worst things. Obviously he's from the 'if it's in a book, I can make use of it' school of thought.

No doubt plenty of people will come along to defend what he said though.

 

Unfortunately, even a person with elementary hawza education can see through the problems of some of these videos. Ijtihaad is only for people who have a full grasp of the religion, when you turn it into some kind of inheritance you run into a lot of problems.

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Can Allah not delegate His powers to whom He likes?

 

Allah does not delegate nor can he delegate any of his powers in the sense that it has generally been understood. His rububiya is absolute. Yes he can exert His power through any means He wishes in order to serve some purpose (he can use angels, trees, humans like Prophets and Imams etc.) but the mufawwada believed that the Imams had powers delegated to them and that they could be exerted independently and at will. The belief in the hadith in question was one of the kinds of beliefs the mufawwada believed in. 

Edited by Al-Khattati
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Allah does not delegate nor can he delegate any of his powers in the sense that it has generally been understood. His rububiya is absolute. Yes he can exert His power through any means He wishes in order to serve some purpose (he can use angels, trees, humans like Prophets and Imams etc.) but the mufawwada believed that the Imams had powers delegated to them and that they could be exerted independently and at will. The belief in the hadith in question was one of the kinds of beliefs the mufawwada believed in.

I'm sorry, I do not understand. Delegation in what sense? If Allah can exert His power to whom he wills, why can He not fully give the control to them? On what basis would this come in any conflict? Of course rationally, this would imply it is within the will of Allah and when this being exerts the powers that Allah has given them, it is done so because it is by the will of Allah.

Do you believe Allah is the one whom takes life away? Do you believe Allah is All-Seeing? Do you believe Allah is our sole witness in our actions we do?

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I'm sorry, I do not understand. Delegation in what sense? If Allah can exert His power to whom he wills, why can He not fully give the control to them? On what basis would this come in any conflict? Of course rationally, this would imply it is within the will of Allah and when this being exerts the powers that Allah has given them, it is done so because it is by the will of Allah.

Do you believe Allah is the one whom takes life away? Do you believe Allah is All-Seeing? Do you believe Allah is our sole witness in our actions we do?

 

I already explained what I meant and I think it was clear enough. 

 

See the following link for a quick read:http://www.aqaedalshia.com/mofid/01%20ilahiyat/35/index.htm

 

And no, your example of the Angel of Death (which is what you are implying) is not tafweed. التفويض

 

http://www.aqaedalshia.com/mofid/01%20ilahiyat/35/index.htm

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I already explained what I meant and I think it was clear enough.

See the following link for a quick read:http://www.aqaedalshia.com/mofid/01%20ilahiyat/35/index.htm

And no, your example of the Angel of Death (which is what you are implying) is not tafweed. التفويض

http://www.aqaedalshia.com/mofid/01%20ilahiyat/35/index.htm

First off I do not understand Arabic. If you are going to post something as proof at least be nice enough to translate it. Second wow, if your going to criticize something and claim your views on that matter please be considerate enough to explain it if someone does not understand it. Third, what's tawfeed?

I ask again, do you believe God alone is all seeing and all knowing? Do you believe God is the sole witness of our deeds?

Edited by PureEthics
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First off I do not understand Arabic. If you are going to post something as proof at least be nice enough to translate it. Second wow, if your going to criticize something and claim your views on that matter please be insider at enough to explain it if someone does not understand it. Third, what's tawfeed?

I ask again, do you believe God alone is all seeing and all knowing? Do you believe God is the sole witness of our deeds? 

 

Sorry I thought you knew Arabic. But my post #6 was clear enough as to what the mufawwada believed in. 

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Sorry I thought you knew Arabic. But my post #6 was clear enough as to what the mufawwada believed in.

It's okay brother, unfortunately I don't. I honestly don't care what they believed in. I'm asking YOU questions. If you do not wish to discuss, then please don't criticize a belief system, when you yourself are not open to questions and criticism.

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That is not tafwid. It is related to ayyam Allah and to the fact that we will not see Allah in the judgment day.there will be angels and imams.

I'm reading the hadith for the first time . I'm familiar with other hadiths though on similar topics but never spent time to put them together to try to get the big picture ....

Tafwid is similar a to a jewish belief that Allah فرغ من الخلق ie Allah has finished creating things and laws and that now he dose not get himself involved in managing it. Except in tafwid the mufawidah will add that the one who will manage the creation are ahlulbayt.

(I'm aware of tafwid in creation too ).

The lecture audience are not clear or their level, but i think Shia today should apply the taqqyiah in media and let their lectures not be recorded if they are about these sorts of hadiths.

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That is not tafwid. It is related to ayyam Allah and to the fact that we will not see Allah in the judgment day.there will be angels and imams.

I'm reading the hadith for the first time . I'm familiar with other hadiths though on similar topics but never spent time to put them together to try to get the big picture ....

Tafwid is similar a to a jewish belief that Allah فرغ من الخلق ie Allah has finished creating things and laws and that now he dose not get himself involved in managing it. Except in tafwid the mufawidah will add that the one who will manage the creation are ahlulbayt.

(I'm aware of tafwid in creation too ).

The lecture audience are not clear or their level, but i think Shia today should apply the taqqyiah in media and let their lectures not be recorded if they are about these sorts of hadiths.

 

The hadith roughly goes as this: "the one who will be responsible for the accounting of people's [deeds] before the Day of Resurrection (barzakh) is Husayn ibn Ali (as) and on the Day of Resurrection he is the one to send them/call them forth to heaven or hell." 

 

The matn is already bad enough but considering the very problematic context that this hadith is taken from (I explained in post #10) and some of the people in the chain of transmission and while juxtaposing it with the historical beliefs of the mufawwada we can be confident that this is a piece of mufawwada propaganda as it is fully in line with what they historically taught and in line with other hadiths they fabricated.  

 

The mufawada believed Allah made the Imams independent overseers and delegates in various aspects of the created world (and had free choice in what to do), one of which was in the world of barzakh. 

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ان الذي يلي

Is a way to say that the one who will take care of ...also it implies that he is one of a number possible candidates.

Then the hadith is about when hisab will be, and when ba'th will be, as in which day.

Is the day of khurouj same as day of hisab, same as day of ba'th?

The narration has no question. Imams won't talk just for talking. We expect them to talk when the talk will carry benefits to coming generations or resolve contemporary dilemma.

The narration as well have no conclusion. What we should understand from these details?

So at best it is a floating statement that has no permis nor conclusion.

Classically, the scholar will try to explain a topic rather than a single hadith. Then after establishing a stable ground of undoubtedly accepted beliefs and doctrines using Quran and authentic hadith, the scholar may mention a solitary hadith with strange context, he may give a probable reconciliation then mention the problems in its chains and it's context.

At the end of the lecture, we get a firm grounds on some beliefs and a had it that maybe is related.

Maybe , is the end conclusion, usually accompanied by : and Allah knows best.

Another point to consider when dealing with not very frequently narrated ahadith is the topic of the hadith. Imams policy is not to talk about details when people are not fully understanding the basics. حدثوا الناس بما يعرفون و دعوا ما ينكرون. So we don't expect them to go against their own policy when they ordered us to follow it.

For this, many scholars who take into consideration the conditions of the time of imam, the narrator status in ilm, the venue in which the had it was declared etc scholars have found that the less frequently reported hadiths are usually those which contain details that are not fitting for ignorant public.

These sort of hadiths though we cannot relay on them alone. They have to fit in the mesh of the hadith corpus.

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For those who don't know, the ghulaat were various groups throughout Shi'i history that exaggerated the status of the Imams which almost always led them to kufr. They were known for raising the Imams to the level of divinity. The Imams said they were kuffaar (disbelievers) and outside of the fold of Islam.

 

The mufawwada were various groups of people in Shi'i history that believed that Allah delegated some His powers to the Imams in the world. The Imams called the mufawwada mushriks (polytheists) as their beliefs were tantamount to Allah setting up partners in this world.

 

Unfortunately, these tendencies still exist today in all shapes and forms and this thread is an example of one and it should serve as a warning to our honest brothers and sisters who want to live in the fold of true Tawheed as taught by the Qur'an and our Prophet Muhammad (s). 

 

 

 

 

Allah does not delegate nor can he delegate any of his powers in the sense that it has generally been understood. His rububiya is absolute. Yes he can exert His power through any means He wishes in order to serve some purpose (he can use angels, trees, humans like Prophets and Imams etc.) but the mufawwada believed that the Imams had powers delegated to them and that they could be exerted independently and at will. 

 

 

I have no comment on the Video.

[Also not concerned with what "mufawwada or what ever name we call them by believed]

 

Today:

It might be Wahabi propaganda that we believe that  Imam[as] had independent powers. 112:1-4 are very clear.

 

But Allah[as] can give His Authority to his chosen Servants. If Allah[swt] decides to transfer/assign/give part or portion of Authority, It will be understood that, that servant of Allah[swt] is able to use it as needed? [if Allah[swt] does not trust His Proof on Earth with limited power and its use]

 

How do you reconcile these.

 

Authority in  5:55 -56,

Creative Authority to Prophet Isa[as] in  5:110,

Prophet Solomon[as] had control 34:12

Person in Prophet Solomon[as] court 27:40

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Allah does not delegate nor can he delegate any of his powers in the sense that it has generally been understood. His rububiya is absolute. Yes he can exert His power through any means He wishes in order to serve some purpose (he can use angels, trees, humans like Prophets and Imams etc.) but the mufawwada believed that the Imams had powers delegated to them and that they could be exerted independently and at will. 

It looks like an argument for no free will and predestination.

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The Ahl al-Bayt (as) that I know of and I read of in our attested works like Sahifa al-Sajjadia centered their religion around Allah as the ultimate hadaf or goal.

Brother you have this theme that somehow we, do not undersatnd the very basics. It is understood that Allah[swt] is the creator and the ultimate Authority. Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp] and the Imams[as] were the Signs, Proof of Allah[swt] on Earth, and without them there was/is no Clarity of the Ultimate Goal. We understood the Ultimate Goal to be whoever is their lord.

 

 

 

 If some people instead want to make Allah a means to Ahl al-Bayt  (as) instead, they can do that and be answerable to Allah when they are resurrected. 

Unless I am mistaken, you have repeated this in other threads, not sure what exactly you mean here. To make Allah[swt] a mean to someone would imply, that entity has higher status. I do not know of single Muslim, who hold this view. In fact person will not be called a Muslim/Christian/Jew.

Allah[swt] has made  Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp] and Ahlul Bayt[as] our means to HIM[swt]. Without them, we would not know Allah[swt]. If one just accept that fact that there is a Creator, if this was enough, there are Christian, and Jews who do understand that their is a creator. Just acknowledging the Ultimate Reality is not sufficient, we need example to follow what this Ultimate Reality wants us to do, act in this life. Hence the need for Guides, we only follow the infallible Guides sent from this Ultimate Reality in obedience to the Ultimate Reality Will.

 

 

 

In fact, there are high ranking scholars (and they are not few) who hold minimalist views of the Imams where they deny such things as al-wilayat al-takwiniyya, greater 'isma (kubra), that the imams are wasitat al-fayd (vehicles for Allah's grace on earth), or that they know all the future and they believe in sahw.

This theme of minimalist Islam, minimalist view of Imams is rampant in your posts. For a reader this is vague, Please inform us of the ‘high ranking scholars” who hold this view? To put it into proper context, lets say out of Ten prominent learned scholars what percentage in the past, and also among the prominent Current Scholars. Because Qur’an  is very explicit [reason, intellect testifies] of the Authority and infallibility of the these Guides.

 

Mother of Prophet Moses[as], and the Mother of Prophet Isa[as] were not Prophets, or infallibles Guides.? Allah[swt] did communicate/contact/inspired them and gave information not known to no other Human  at that time.  

 

With all due respect, Wahabi blame us for most of the stuff you have mentioned in your posts. Not sure who you are, are you a Scholar, Hawza student. Most of the time you are quoting Hadith not Qur’an to supplement your view. Some of us, layman,  do not have the knowledge of Hadith and its sciences[which are not exact or definitive] , Hadith is only used as a supplement to the Quranic View, and further aided with intellect to understand and formulate a holistic view.

You are not obligated to, but if you can give your complete understanding of the Qur’an 33:33 and 5:55-56, it will be appreciated. I will be able to put your posts into proper perspective.

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Even if we accept the authenticity of the the book, just look at the chain of the narrators back to Imam al-Sadiq عليه السلام

 

وَ عَنْهُ، عَنْ مُوسَى بْنِ سَعْدَانَ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ الْقَاسِمِ، عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ أَحْمَدَ الْمَعْرُوفِ بِالْمِنْقَرَيِّ، عَنْ يُونُسَ بْنِ ظَبْيَانَ، عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ: «إِنَّ الَّذِي يَلِي حِسَابَ النَّاسِ قَبْلَ يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ الْحُسَيْنُ بْنُ عَلِيٍّ ع فَأَمَّا يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ فَإِنَّمَا هُوَ بَعْثٌ إِلَى الْجَنَّةِ أَوْ بَعْثٌ إِلَى النَّارِ»

 

Like al-Khattati said, this such a weak chain that this hadeeth is almost certainly fabricated. Every single one of those narrators is a dha'eef ghālī according to the classical scholars. Even the guys obsessed with qara'in can't go that far. To do that would be like saying that the likes of  al-Najashi and al-Tusi had no idea what they were talking about.

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I just want to ensure that we are crystal clear on the objective. Nothing is misconstrued or taken in an offensive manner by any one.

 

The concepts you are informing us of are foreign to us [laypeople], hence you get responses from people looking for clarity.  We do not have access to material you as a scholar or Hawza[islamic] school elementary or advanced students.

 

Most of us can’t read Arabic/Farsi. We rely on current English Qur’an commentaries available on the net. English books, and English Lectures. And these concepts are not norm in what we read, or hear.

 

If this tread was only about a validity of a particular Tradition, and you were having or wanted an academic discussion on the validity of this Tradition based on Hadith sciences only, we laypeople will not even be involved or post as we are ignorant in this regard.

 

But you introduced “Concepts’ and its becomes a “conceptual” issue, and this is where there may be a disconnect in your objective of the thread or our understanding.

 

Conceptually, what is said in the video could make sense considering, the Quranic concepts, popular traditions, and intellect.

 

Humans are in Authority to judge people in this material realm[according to Islamic Law] we do have that power[not independent power], we have knowledge to see the future, as the doctor is able to determine [not with complete accuracy or certainty] the timeframe for how long a cancer patient have left[ limited power and knowledge for perform tasks assigned to us].

 

We can conceptually deduce[will not be against Holistic view of the Qur’an and Prophet[pbuh ahp] traditions]  that in Barzak, it is possible for what the hadith said[considering the complete understanding of the Origin[Light},  Proof of Allah[swt] and their apparent and inherent Authority. As some of them are described to us by the Prophet Muhammad[pbuh ahp] as leaders of the youth of Paradise, and scale that divide heaven and hell. It is for them this world was created.

like I were to assemble 12 “most learned scholars” and open an institute, I can say that this institute was created for these five scholars, otherwise I would not have created it. Even though that Islam is taught in this institute, but these scholars are the means to proper understanding of Islam, otherwise Islam will not be understood, without them.[Completely logical]

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حدثنا أبو جعفر محمد بن علي بن الحسين قال: حدثني أبي قال: حدثني محمد بن يحيى العطار قال: حدثنا أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن علي بن الحكم، عن هشام بن سالم، عن سليمان بن خالد، عن أبي عبد الله جعفر بن محمد الصادق، عن آبائه عليهم السلام قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله لعلي عليه السلام: يا علي أنت مني وأنا منك: وليك وليي ووليي ولي الله، وعدوك عدوي وعدوي عدو الله. يا علي أنا حرب لمن حاربك، وسلم لمن سالمك. يا علي لك كنز في الجنة وأنت ذو قرنيها (2). يا علي أنت قسيم الجنة والنار، لا يدخل الجنة إلا من عرفك وعرفته ، ولا يدخل النار إلا من أنكرك وأنكرته. يا علي أنت والائمة من ولدك (4) على الاعراف يوم القيامة تعرف المجرمين بسيماهم، والمؤمنين بعلاماتهم. يا علي لولاك لم يعرف المؤمنون بعدي.

 

I don't see how you can put the two narrations in the same category. The answer to the meaning of this hadeeth is in the hadeeth itself. First, the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله says to Imam Ali أنت قسيم الجنة والنار [You are the separator of heaven and hell]. This doesn't literally mean Imam Ali عليه السلام sits there choosing who is in heaven and who is in hell. It means لا يدخل الجنة إلا من عرفك وعرفته ، ولا يدخل النار إلا من أنكرك وأنكرته  [no one enters heaven except that they acknowledge you and you acknowledge him, and no one enters fire except that they reject you and you reject him].

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(bismillah)

 

 

Even if we accept the authenticity of the the book, just look at the chain of the narrators back to Imam al-Sadiq عليه السلام

 

 

Like al-Khattati said, this such a weak chain that this hadeeth is almost certainly fabricated. Every single one of those narrators is a dha'eef ghālī according to the classical scholars. Even the guys obsessed with qara'in can't go that far. To do that would be like saying that the likes of  al-Najashi and al-Tusi had no idea what they were talking about.

 

You have not read many the works of rijal and their different scopes and mabani - from what I have gathered - so I think you should not jump to conclusions and make assumptions in which mabna is or isn't correct.

 

Weak chain - even extremely weak of a chain - does not give us the right to call it fabricated. The point I am trying to make is that people are jumping to conclusions with these narrations because they have a sensitivity to high Imamology. Especially when there are different ways to interpret these narrations.

 

I don't see how you can put the two narrations in the same category. The answer to the meaning of this hadeeth is in the hadeeth itself. First, the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله says to Imam Ali أنت قسيم الجنة والنار [You are the separator of heaven and hell]. This doesn't literally mean Imam Ali عليه السلام sits there choosing who is in heaven and who is in hell. It means لا يدخل الجنة إلا من عرفك وعرفته ، ولا يدخل النار إلا من أنكرك وأنكرته  [no one enters heaven except that they acknowledge you and you acknowledge him, and no one enters fire except that they reject you and you reject him].

 

I had brought this hadith as an example to reflect the interpretation I had brought up as a possibility regarding the last part of the hadith in the OP.

 

في أمان الله

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I don't see how you can put the two narrations in the same category. The answer to the meaning of this hadeeth is in the hadeeth itself. First, the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله says to Imam Ali أنت قسيم الجنة والنار [You are the separator of heaven and hell]. This doesn't literally mean Imam Ali عليه السلام sits there choosing who is in heaven and who is in hell. It means لا يدخل الجنة إلا من عرفك وعرفته ، ولا يدخل النار إلا من أنكرك وأنكرته  [no one enters heaven except that they acknowledge you and you acknowledge him, and no one enters fire except that they reject you and you reject him].

Your interest is academic, means to the end.

 

Concepts are not defined by one Tradition or one verse. But I understand what the learned brother said, If the most learned Scholars that are assigned to this institute that i created, unless you as a student acknowledge their merit, and learn and follow what they teach and ask you to practice, you as a student will fail the test, hence they are ultimately have the Authority[given by me] if you graduate or not. If the degree is given by me or rejected by me is based on what these people [i have selected for this task,]say. They don’t have  title of the President but I have given them authority, they are not my equal  in creation or establishment of this institute.But where you end up is under their control[by my permission].

 

As to who may be standing there at the gate is irrelevant in the sense that its already too late, [we are arguing semantics].Essence of these traditions could be.  To me, heaven and hell is been distributed here and now[gate is here and now], based on my choices on daily basis and consequences of these choices and decisions and which way I go is based on my strict following of the ones we are told to follow.

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Even if we accept the authenticity of the the book, just look at the chain of the narrators back to Imam al-Sadiq عليه السلام

Like al-Khattati said, this such a weak chain that this hadeeth is almost certainly fabricated. Every single one of those narrators is a dha'eef ghālī according to the classical scholars. Even the guys obsessed with qara'in can't go that far. To do that would be like saying that the likes of al-Najashi and al-Tusi had no idea what they were talking about.

Maybe so, but the op post contained more than assessment of the narrators statuses. I think the hadith is solitary too. But I was not commenting on the hadith content and certainly not on chains. I just felt that the methodology used by the op and his conclusion were wrong. As much as is yours.

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(bismillah)

 

 

Regarding the narration the OP is talking about .... I suppose we have other narrations with similar content ..
 

براهيم الأحمري، عن عبد الرحمن بن أحمد التميمي، عن عبد الله ابن سنان، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام، قال إذا كان يوم القيامة وكلنا الله بحساب شيعتنا، فما كان لله سألنا الله أن يهبه لنا فهو لهم، و ما كان لنا فهو لهم، ثم قرأ أبو عبد الله عليه السلام إِنَّ إِلَيْنا إِيابَهُمْ ثُمَّ إِنَّ عَلَيْنا حِسابَهُمْ


Ibraheem Al-Ahmiri, from Abdul Rahman bin Ahmad Al-Tameemi, from Abdullah bin Sinan, from Abi Abdillah (as):
 
Abu Abdullah (as) said, "On the day of judgment, will be commissioned with the accounting of our Shias, so for the things which were to do with Allah (sins against Allah), We will ask Him to grant it to us, then it will be theirs, and whatever is Ours will be theirs". Then Abu Abdullah (as) recited, "Surely to us is their turning back, Then surely upon Us is the taking of their account." [88:25-26]
 
[source: Al-Amali - Sheikh Toosi, Vol. 2, Pg. 20]
 

Similar is also there is Ziyarat al-Jamiya ..
 

وَإِيَابُ الْخَلْقِ إِلَيْكُمْ وَحِسَابُهُمْ عَلَيْكُمْ
"And the return of the creations is towards you and their accounting is upon you."

 

 

I don't see how you can put the two narrations in the same category. The answer to the meaning of this hadeeth is in the hadeeth itself. First, the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله says to Imam Ali أنت قسيم الجنة والنار [You are the separator of heaven and hell]. This doesn't literally mean Imam Ali عليه السلام sits there choosing who is in heaven and who is in hell. It means لا يدخل الجنة إلا من عرفك وعرفته ، ولا يدخل النار إلا من أنكرك وأنكرته  [no one enters heaven except that they acknowledge you and you

acknowledge him, and no one enters fire except that they reject you and you reject him].

 

 

We do have narration which also state that Imam Ali (as) will actually tell who goes to heaven and hell ..

يَا عَلِيُّ أَنْتَ قَسِيمُ الْجَنَّةِ وَالنَّارِ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ تَقُولُ لِلنَّارِ هَذَا لِي وَهَذَا لَكَ

"O Ali! You are the one to divide up Paradise and Fire on the Resurrection Day. You will tell the fire, this is for Me (leave it) and this is for You
(take it)."

 

complete narration can be seen here:

http://www.marefateahlebait.com/Hadees-on-marefat/reasons-for-various-things/imam-ali-will-divide-paradise-hell

Edited by muhibb-ali
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(bismillah)

 

 

Regarding the narration the OP is talking about .... I suppose we have other narrations with similar content ..

 

براهيم الأحمري، عن عبد الرحمن بن أحمد التميمي، عن عبد الله ابن سنان، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام، قال إذا كان يوم القيامة وكلنا الله بحساب شيعتنا، فما كان لله سألنا الله أن يهبه لنا فهو لهم، و ما كان لنا فهو لهم، ثم قرأ أبو عبد الله عليه السلام إِنَّ إِلَيْنا إِيابَهُمْ ثُمَّ إِنَّ عَلَيْنا حِسابَهُمْ

Ibraheem Al-Ahmiri, from Abdul Rahman bin Ahmad Al-Tameemi, from Abdullah bin Sinan, from Abi Abdillah (as):

 
Abu Abdullah (as) said, "On the day of judgment, will be commissioned with the accounting of our Shias, so for the things which were to do with Allah (sins against Allah), We will ask Him to grant it to us, then it will be theirs, and whatever is Ours will be theirs". Then Abu Abdullah (as) recited, "Surely to us is their turning back, Then surely upon Us is the taking of their account." [88:25-26]
 
[source: Al-Amali - Sheikh Toosi, Vol. 2, Pg. 20]
 

Similar is also there is Ziyarat al-Jamiya ..

 

وَإِيَابُ الْخَلْقِ إِلَيْكُمْ وَحِسَابُهُمْ عَلَيْكُمْ
"And the return of the creations is towards you and their accounting is upon you."

 

 

 

 

We do have narration which also state that Imam Ali (as) will actually tell who goes to heaven and hell ..

يَا عَلِيُّ أَنْتَ قَسِيمُ الْجَنَّةِ وَالنَّارِ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ تَقُولُ لِلنَّارِ هَذَا لِي وَهَذَا لَكَ

"O Ali! You are the one to divide up Paradise and Fire on the Resurrection Day. You will tell the fire, this is for Me (leave it) and this is for You

(take it)."

 

complete narration can be seen here:

http://www.marefateahlebait.com/Hadees-on-marefat/reasons-for-various-things/imam-ali-will-divide-paradise-hell

 

And all we have here is the same problem - a dha'eef chain of narrators [both hadīths]. Since when are we so inclined to accept the narrations of dhu'afā and majaheel? Carry on calling us skeptical but as it has already been mentioned it's about having proper standards.

Edited by Ali al-Hadi
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Even if we accept the authenticity of the the book, just look at the chain of the narrators back to Imam al-Sadiq عليه السلام

 

 

Like al-Khattati said, this such a weak chain that this hadeeth is almost certainly fabricated. Every single one of those narrators is a dha'eef ghālī according to the classical scholars. Even the guys obsessed with qara'in can't go that far. To do that would be like saying that the likes of  al-Najashi and al-Tusi had no idea what they were talking about.

Hi,

You have the same narration (I mean the same content approximately) in Zyarat al-jami`a al-kubra. According to some mabani, it's authentic. Do not play the game of rijal with me. 

If you want, I can ask your marâji` about the content (not the sanad)...

Cordially,

 

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