Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
Khalilallah

Tatbir Is Fabricated And Un-Islamic

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

 

 

download4_zpsd6c8cf06.jpg

 

Why, because I answered in kind? You could have saved face by actually explaining your loaded one-liner, but resorted to being the cheeky keyboard warrior that you are known to be. If you don't have anything productive to say, then don't say it.

You have been banned before for behaving like a 12 year old, which has nothing to do with your faith for which you have been given open doors to discuss and more often than not,  insult ours, but has everything to do with you and the way you behave. Grow up. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, because u blamed the enitre sunni school of thought instead of a particular practice which might have been controversial & i too have agreed with it.

 

no, i just simply did what you did, i spoke without explaining to agitate. Now if you want to discuss matam, make a thread about it. This thread is not about matam. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

 

 

You'll have to elaborate on that one there.

 

في أمان الله

 

I've elaborated a bit on another similar thread "How Do We stop this Madness".

 

Intellect:

Watch this video from 1:30 till the end and tell me if your intellect accepted it.

 

 

Our fitra completely rejects it. The best way to check it out is to show this video to a kid and see their reaction. They'll freak out. 

 

Quran:

Do you really think Quran with it's perfection and purity, allow ^^^ ?

 

Since clearly Tatbir is harmful to the body, in fact in some instances such as that in the video, it is dangerous, thus it goes against the Quran which tells us to not bring harm upon ourselves.

" and make not your own hands contribute to (your) destruction", 2:195

 

Lastly: From a Quranic an intellectual point of view, we are meant to follow our pure Imams (as).

If they didn't practice it then who are we to practice it?

Edited by SlaveOfAllah14

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also Muharram is a time for mourning, which person in history took a sword and split himself because someone precious to them died?

 

 

What is Tatbir?

 

Does it mean zanjeer zani or matam or both?

 

I didn't watch the video

 

I didn't watched the video either.

 

But I am interested to know what tatbir exactly is. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

 

 

I didn't watch the video because I think I have seen it before and youtube is very slow. Anyway, dear brother/sister, what that is in the video is 1 - not Tatbir and 2 - not the norm of bloodletting practices ( شاذّ ).

 

"Fitra" last time I checked was not a probative source of daleel in Islamic Law. The way it is being used in the above quote seems to be more of an emotional argument, which may or may not have impact based on cultural background and upbringing. 

 

This Qur'anic argument is also lacking and there's no daleel that it means what you are trying to make it mean.

 

Too many people now a days are having issues with Muslim practices and sometimes even full-on Islamic concepts due to their own personal issues. We need to put those aside. What is most apparent from the Tatbir issue is that most Maraji that speak about it have no outlawed it based on the practice in and of itself. In fact, I think most do not forbid it. It seems that those who have forbidden it have done so based on secondary reasons, like the image of true Islam.

 

Too many people have become pigheaded and stubborn about this issue and it is drawing way too much attention. Not the actual doing or not doing tatbir, but the issue about whether to do it/not do it or condemn it, etc. I see the wisdom in why people would not do it based on it being a barrier to da`wa and other such things (but would you believe some people - even if very few - became Muslim due to tatbir? ). But from the current parameters of fiqh, I fully see why it is not being forbidden. 

 

People are acting like Tatbir is the issue dividing us. It shouldn't be. It is, right now, because we keep being pigheaded and stubborn about it and then other side retaliates. Leave it alone, all will be fine iA. Some people talk a whole lot about unity, but then things like this are made an issue and it divides us.

 

والله الأعلم

في أمان الله

 

Infact, my marjaa allows it. But he never says it is wajib. Thus we have a choice to do it or not. And here is where we are discussing the pros and cons of Tatbir, not to condemn those who did it and praise who didn't.

 

And my argument against it is simply since non of our Imams did it, we should not do it either. As far as I know, it doesn't have any basis in our religion. If you think it's ok please put forward your reasons/arguments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

as-Salamu A'laikum Jami'an,

Are there ahadeeth prohibiting Tatbir, or more specifically, are there ahadeeth that sets boundaries and limits to what are accepted and valid forms of expressing grief for the Shuhada of Karbala?

Thanks in advanced.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

 

Infact, my marjaa allows it. But he never says it is wajib. Thus we have a choice to do it or not. And here is where we are discussing the pros and cons of Tatbir, not to condemn those who did it and praise who didn't.

 

And my argument against it is simply since non of our Imams did it, we should not do it either. As far as I know, it doesn't have any basis in our religion. If you think it's ok please put forward your reasons/arguments.

 

That type of argument is not valid because there are loads of things the A'imma عليهم السلام did not themselves do, specifically in the context of morning and otherwise, that are not fought against. Do not confuse this with me saying we should stop all those things, but the argument is not consistent. If you're going to stop Tatbir and its like for this reason, then we should stop these processions with poetry and synchronized chest beating, for example.

 

It's not about division or unity. It is about right and wrong, and that isn't something that should be ignored. Leaving it, is hardly an approach to something controversial. Even if the world was only shias, and no one would judge, we still should have discussed and come to a final conclusion stuff like this. 

 

People gathering and cutting themselves, blood flowing everywhere, is not the same as discussing whether or not you should go all the way up to your ankle when doing wuthu.  People ask proper questions and they need proper answers. Is this an act of mourning or not? If god forbid your father died, would you take a sword and bash your head and back with it, then take your kid and bash his head with it too? Or would you in your mourning beat your chest and maybe your head with your hands?

 

And please don't tell me "well Imam Hussein is different" because we aren't speaking of who died, we are speaking of tradition of what mourning is and what acceptable acts are when mourning. 

 

We're going to use the Shari`ah for our meter stick for determining right and wrong. If the sources for proof in fiqh are not sufficient to prohibit it, then we cannot say it is forbidden. I already mentioned the point about chest beating above.

 

As for what I would do if - لا سامح الله - my father died, no I myself would not do any sort of blood ritual. I wouldn't even beat my chests or head. In fact, I don't think it is the norm in any western country to do anything Shi`ah do in their commemoration for the Master of Martyrs عليه السلام for anyone.

 

Whether we think it "right" or "wrong" or "strange," Tatbir has become an established commemoration ritual for Abi `Abdillah عليه السلام and it is how a section from the Imamiyya display their devotion and grievance to the Ahl a-Bayt عليهم السلام.

 

Imam al-Husayn عليه السلام is special, you can't remove that. The tragedy of Karbala is something exceptional. What societies consider mourning and grievance differ from one another and change over time.

 

The only real point I see for not doing tatbir returns back to is how unwholesome it appears to, what I'd say is, the majority of outsiders. At that point, they either care about that or they don't, for whatever their reasons might be. Even then, all those pictures are already online whenever you do a images search, so damage done already and its always going to be there.

 

اللهم إنا نستخير إنك أنت العيلم

في أمان الله

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with a lot what Abu Tufayl says, like ""Fitra" last time I checked was not a probative source of daleel in Islamic Law. The way it is being used in the above quote seems to be more of an emotional argument, which may or may not have impact based on cultural background and upbringing." and "In fact, I don't think it is the norm in any western country to do anything Shi`ah do in their commemoration for the Master of Martyrs عليه السلام for anyone.", except that I like to agree with another poster who argues that the Quranic verse "and make not your own hands contribute to [your] destruction" 2:195 can be applied to Tatbir and this is true.

Edited by lover

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that just because there is a fiqhi ruling (haram/halal) about a matter, doesn't necessarily mean that we have to practice ist.We have also a ruling about slavery, but the practice due to this issue amongst the ahlul beit as is well known.And Imam Ali as said, u are created free, so don't be a slave of others.So there is a ruling, fiqh, and the practice in order to represent Islam.

It is also not forbidden to ride ur car against wall, with low speed, just to damage the car, but who would do that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

 

I think that just because there is a fiqhi ruling (haram/halal) about a matter, doesn't necessarily mean that we have to practice ist.We have also a ruling about slavery, but the practice due to this issue amongst the ahlul beit as is well known.And Imam Ali as said, u are created free, so don't be a slave of others.So there is a ruling, fiqh, and the practice in order to represent Islam.

It is also not forbidden to ride ur car against wall, with low speed, just to damage the car, but who would do that?

 

I agree, just because something isn't forbidden and sanctioned and not wajib, doesn't mean we must practice it normally. However, your slavery example I don't think holds up. Slavery is still practiced in parts of the world - Muslim parts of the world - and there really isn't an issue with that. Last I heard, the slaves in Mauritania themselves protested some new UN law against slavery. I lol'd when I heard that.

 

except that I like to agree with another poster who argues that the Quranic verse "and make not your own hands contribute to [your] destruction" 2:195 can be applied to Tatbir and this is true.

 

Not really. If one believes making a small cut on your head, letting it bleed for a bit, then it heals in a few hours is "contributing to ones own destruction," then I better start seeing fatwa about loads of other things that are "destroying us," like fast food, which I would argue is more destructive. If one thinks it is because people do tatbir that Wahabis or whatever kill Shias - on the off chance they will spin the verse to mean someting like this - then I think they really need to re-examine history and current events.

 

والله الأعلم

في أمان الله

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

 

 

I agree, just because something isn't forbidden and sanctioned and not wajib, doesn't mean we must practice it normally. However, your slavery example I don't think holds up. Slavery is still practiced in parts of the world - Muslim parts of the world - and there really isn't an issue with that. Last I heard, the slaves in Mauritania themselves protested some new UN law against slavery. I lol'd when I heard that.

 

 

 

 

Not really. If one believes making a small cut on your head, letting it bleed for a bit, then it heals in a few hours is "contributing to ones own destruction," then I better start seeing fatwa about loads of other things that are "destroying us," like fast food, which I would argue is more destructive. If one thinks it is because people do tatbir that Wahabis or whatever kill Shias - on the off chance they will spin the verse to mean someting like this - then I think they really need to re-examine history and current events.

 

والله الأعلم

في أمان الله

 

The arguments hold inconsistent, I agree. Its just as when people try to take quranic verses and say that calling on others is shirk. Well, if you claim such a thing, then dont call on anyone for it is shirk. Just stay mute. So just as when people claim the quran says causing self harm is haram, then I hate to break it to ya, but you are causing yourself self harm just by living. Heck, even wearing clothes causes self harm, for the clothes harm and irritate your skin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wanted to explain with the slavery example, that it is an issue which has a ruling, but still wasn't a practice amongst Imams as...on the contrary Imams as encouraged muslims to free slaves.So even if tatbir would not be haram, a muslim should think about its benefit for Islam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i am not an advocate for tatbeer, i dont do it, nor do i have any inclinations to do it, but i am an advocate of aza al-husain a.s. and anything that is associated with it

ayatullah sayyed mohsin al ameen (r.a.) was the first person who openly condemned it 100 years ago. but it still continued. since the last 100 years of the practise of tatbeer has there been any detriment to shiaism due to it? no. in fact shiaism has spread even further and wider. so the harm that it is supposed to cause islam hasnt been proven.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

 

 

 

We're going to use the Shari`ah for our meter stick for determining right and wrong. If the sources for proof in fiqh are not sufficient to prohibit it, then we cannot say it is forbidden. I already mentioned the point about chest beating above.

 

No, we can't use Shari'ah as our measuring stick directly, because neither me nor you is proficient enough to deduct much from it. So we turn to the Ulama because they are. And for every Ulama that people can muster that allows is, there is 3 Ulama on the other side that is against it. That being said majority isn't always right, so we also turn to our logic and common sense. 

 

 

As for what I would do if - لا سامح الله - my father died, no I myself would not do any sort of blood ritual. I wouldn't even beat my chests or head. In fact, I don't think it is the norm in any western country to do anything Shi`ah do in their commemoration for the Master of Martyrs عليه السلام for anyone.

 

What is norm in the west is not of importance. The norm in the middle east and muslim countries, is in fact beating of chest and beating of head and crying loud. 

 

 

Imam al-Husayn عليه السلام is special, you can't remove that. The tragedy of Karbala is something exceptional. What societies consider mourning and grievance differ from one another and change over time.

 

Who said Imam Hussein isn't special? Point was never how special Imam Hussein is, point is that we can't use him being "special" to do whatever we feel like and say its "love for hussein" so it's ok. 

Please give me a couple of examples of what societies have changed their for of grieving(the actual act of grieving) over time, the past 5000 years? From what i know, crying, beating chest and head has always been a part of the culture in middle east and the outer rims of it, and has never changed. 

 

 

The only real point I see for not doing tatbir returns back to is how unwholesome it appears to, what I'd say is, the majority of outsiders. At that point, they either care about that or they don't, for whatever their reasons might be. Even then, all those pictures are already online whenever you do a images search, so damage done already and its always going to be there.

 

اللهم إنا نستخير إنك أنت العيلم

في أمان الله

 

So you don't see the point that it actually makes no sense and that there is no justification for it? And i definitely don't agree with the logic of damage is already done so let's get at it. That is a strange way of going about issues. All form for damage can be repaired over time. It's better for people to say, well some shias were doing this 50 years ago, but it is gone now, than they still do this stuff. Just like saying he used to smoke, he doesn't anymore. 

i am not an advocate for tatbeer, i dont do it, nor do i have any inclinations to do it, but i am an advocate of aza al-husain a.s. and anything that is associated with it

ayatullah sayyed mohsin al ameen (r.a.) was the first person who openly condemned it 100 years ago. but it still continued. since the last 100 years of the practise of tatbeer has there been any detriment to shiaism due to it? no. in fact shiaism has spread even further and wider. so the harm that it is supposed to cause islam hasnt been proven.

 

I don't agree with this logic. Just because something spreads doesn't mean it doesn't contain faults. As a matter of fact, it is spreading that which is faulty, which is a bad thing. 

Salafism has spread too, rapidly the last decade, does that mean that it hasn't caused harm?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why would you reject tatbir? Dont tell me you also reject the hadith of Sayida Zainab (as) hitting her head as well. Tatbir is the biggest and most sacred ritual of Imam Hussayn, nobody has the right to say its haram. This recent Muharram there was close to 3 million people doing this sacred Ritual all over Iraq and espically in Karbala.

 

Those who attack Tatbir are Ja'hel


All of our rightful Ulama'a has spoken as well

 

Any Marja who speaks aganst Tatbir is just plain stupidity.

post-91502-0-96903600-1415627305_thumb.j

Edited by theshiatoday

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why would you reject tatbir? Dont tell me you also reject the hadith of Sayida Zainab (as) hitting her head as well. Tatbir is the biggest and most sacred ritual of Imam Hussayn, nobody has the right to say its haram. This recent Muharram there was close to 3 million people doing this sacred Ritual all over Iraq and espically in Karbala.

 

Those who attack Tatbir are Ja'hel

All of our rightful Ulama'a has spoken as well

 

Any Marja who speaks aganst Tatbir is just plain stupidity.

Congratz.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Zaynab bint Ali (sa) shedding blood from her head for Imam Husain (as)

 

فالتفتت زينب فرأت رأس أخيها فنطحت جبينها بمقدم المحمل، حتى رأينا الدم يخرج من تحت قناعها

 

"Zainab (sa) turned and saw the head of her brother, then hit her forehead on the front part of the Mahmil, until we saw blood coming out from under her veil."

 

[source: Bihar Al Anwar, Vol. 45, Pg. 115]

 

---------------------------------------


It has come is some of the compilations of the later scholars that is narrated regarding Imam Ali bin Hussain (al-Sajjad) (a.s), that on one day some food and drink was placed in front of him, so he remembered the hunger of his father Imam Hussain (a.s) and his thirst on the day of Taf in Karbala, as a result he choked with tears and wept severely such that his dress became wet due to severe crying and sadness for his father Imam Hussain (a.s). Then he asked the food to be taken away from him. Then a Christian man came inside and greeted him with Salam and said, "O' son of Prophet of Allah, extend Your hand, verily I testify that there is no God but Allah, and I testify that Muhammad Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå is the Prophet of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and that Imam Ali, Amir al-Mumineen (a.s) is the Wali of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and His proof upon His creations, and You my Master are the proof of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì upon His creations, and verily the truth (Haq) is in You and with You and towards You. Then Imam Ali bin Husain (al-Sajjad) (as) said, "What has aroused you and brought you out of your religion and the nature of your fore-fathers and the religion of your companions?" The Christian man said, "O my Master, I saw a vision in my dream." The Christian man then starts narration his dream about Imam Hussain (a.s). And when he finishes narrating his dream... The narrator said, "When Imam Ali bin Hussain (al-Sajjad) (a.s) heard that Imam Hussain's (a.s) head fell in the lap of Lady Zainab (s.a.), He (a.s) stood up full length and struck the wall of the house with his face, as a result breaking his nose and split opening his head and blood flowing onto his chest. And he (a.s.) fell unconscious from the severity of sadness and crying."

 

[source: Dar al-Salam v. 2, p. 196 - 200]

 

---------------------------------------

 


During the mourning procession Imam (a.s.) wept loudly and tore his shirt. This accursed man by the name of Abu Awn al-Abrash wrote a letter to Imam (a.s.), that people were shocked by your tearing of your shirt in the procession of Imam al-Naqi (a.s.). Imam (a.s.) replied, O imbecile! Who are you and what of that? Prophet Moosa (a.s.) tore his shirt in grief of Prophet Haroon (a.s.). Know that there are people who are born Muslim, live as Muslims and die as Muslims and there are people who are born Kafir, live as Kafir and die Kafirs, know that you shall not die until you have disbelieved in Allah. Then he lost his senses and his family hid him from the people and locked him in his room since he went mad due to being overcome by the whisperings of Satan and having completely lost all sense of religion and rejected the Imam of his time.

 

[source: Bihar Al Anwar, Vol. 50, Pg. 191, H. 3 and 4]

 

---------------------------------------

 

Yet you go against these and our holy Imams and Prophets? I really do not know how these so called `scholars` actually can say words such as going against tatbir

 

Edited by theshiatoday

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will never accept ahadith that describe Sayyida Zaynab sa or our Imams as as being mentally broken in that way,that they are weak or somehow psychologically defeated by Yazeed la.

Who are the narrators of these ahadith?

Edited by mina313

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why would you reject tatbir? Dont tell me you also reject the hadith of Sayida Zainab (as) hitting her head as well. Tatbir is the biggest and most sacred ritual of Imam Hussayn, nobody has the right to say its haram. This recent Muharram there was close to 3 million people doing this sacred Ritual all over Iraq and espically in Karbala.

 

Those who attack Tatbir are Ja'hel

All of our rightful Ulama'a has spoken as well

 

Any Marja who speaks aganst Tatbir is just plain stupidity.

 

You basically called the other half of the Ulama Ja'hel and stupid, which is not accepted here. I'll let it slide this time. However, did you even bother to confirm the picture you linked? I for one know where you got it from, and it has been refuted and proven as a fabrication. But since you posted it, i would like you to confirm that it's actually true. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Zaynab bint Ali (sa) shedding blood from her head for Imam Husain (as)

 

فالتفتت زينب فرأت رأس أخيها فنطحت جبينها بمقدم المحمل، حتى رأينا الدم يخرج من تحت قناعها

 

"Zainab (sa) turned and saw the head of her brother, then hit her forehead on the front part of the Mahmil, until we saw blood coming out from under her veil."

 

[source: Bihar Al Anwar, Vol. 45, Pg. 115]

 

---------------------------------------

It has come is some of the compilations of the later scholars that is narrated regarding Imam Ali bin Hussain (al-Sajjad) (a.s), that on one day some food and drink was placed in front of him, so he remembered the hunger of his father Imam Hussain (a.s) and his thirst on the day of Taf in Karbala, as a result he choked with tears and wept severely such that his dress became wet due to severe crying and sadness for his father Imam Hussain (a.s). Then he asked the food to be taken away from him. Then a Christian man came inside and greeted him with Salam and said, "O' son of Prophet of Allah, extend Your hand, verily I testify that there is no God but Allah, and I testify that Muhammad Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå is the Prophet of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and that Imam Ali, Amir al-Mumineen (a.s) is the Wali of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and His proof upon His creations, and You my Master are the proof of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì upon His creations, and verily the truth (Haq) is in You and with You and towards You. Then Imam Ali bin Husain (al-Sajjad) (as) said, "What has aroused you and brought you out of your religion and the nature of your fore-fathers and the religion of your companions?" The Christian man said, "O my Master, I saw a vision in my dream." The Christian man then starts narration his dream about Imam Hussain (a.s). And when he finishes narrating his dream... The narrator said, "When Imam Ali bin Hussain (al-Sajjad) (a.s) heard that Imam Hussain's (a.s) head fell in the lap of Lady Zainab (s.a.), He (a.s) stood up full length and struck the wall of the house with his face, as a result breaking his nose and split opening his head and blood flowing onto his chest. And he (a.s.) fell unconscious from the severity of sadness and crying."

 

[source: Dar al-Salam v. 2, p. 196 - 200]

 

---------------------------------------

 

During the mourning procession Imam (a.s.) wept loudly and tore his shirt. This accursed man by the name of Abu Awn al-Abrash wrote a letter to Imam (a.s.), that people were shocked by your tearing of your shirt in the procession of Imam al-Naqi (a.s.). Imam (a.s.) replied, O imbecile! Who are you and what of that? Prophet Moosa (a.s.) tore his shirt in grief of Prophet Haroon (a.s.). Know that there are people who are born Muslim, live as Muslims and die as Muslims and there are people who are born Kafir, live as Kafir and die Kafirs, know that you shall not die until you have disbelieved in Allah. Then he lost his senses and his family hid him from the people and locked him in his room since he went mad due to being overcome by the whisperings of Satan and having completely lost all sense of religion and rejected the Imam of his time.

 

[source: Bihar Al Anwar, Vol. 50, Pg. 191, H. 3 and 4]

 

---------------------------------------

 

Yet you go against these and our holy Imams and Prophets? I really do not know how these so called `scholars` actually can say words such as going against tatbir

I verified your sources but you didn't tell us that its rijal al kashi that Majalisi is quoting,

I won't except that, but next time you cite something tell the details instead of saying Bihar al Anwar.

And because Zaynab did that makes it sunnah?? She is an infallible now???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If imam have done that act by themself then do it. We are follower of Rasool Allah and after Rasool Allah Ahle Bait (as) .. we must rethink on every act whatever we are doing, bcoz every person is representative of his Religion. If due to your act religion got bad name then its your responsibility and you have to answer.

 

Personally i don't do that kind of act, Single hand Matam or sometime double hand matam is fine to me. My aim is to do 100% Itaat to Imam and to do that we have to be genuinely follower of Marja and his recommendation. Present no Marja is recommending such act.

 

But those who are doing this kindly do in some House where you body can not get eyes of other Na Mahram.

 

Imam Hussain (as) told to Bani Asad kids to throw dust on his body bcoz he was aware that Yazeedi will took all things from his body after his Martrydom. And he don't want to be naked even after Martrydom. Its our duty to follow acts of our Imam instead of our own thinking and Belives.

 

If Imam did with his own hand do .. otherwise why ? Imam done Azadari by calling Marsiakhan do that .. simple.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Zaynab bint Ali (sa) shedding blood from her head for Imam Husain (as)

 

فالتفتت زينب فرأت رأس أخيها فنطحت جبينها بمقدم المحمل، حتى رأينا الدم يخرج من تحت قناعها

 

"Zainab (sa) turned and saw the head of her brother, then hit her forehead on the front part of the Mahmil, until we saw blood coming out from under her veil."

 

[source: Bihar Al Anwar, Vol. 45, Pg. 115]

 

---------------------------------------

It has come is some of the compilations of the later scholars that is narrated regarding Imam Ali bin Hussain (al-Sajjad) (a.s), that on one day some food and drink was placed in front of him, so he remembered the hunger of his father Imam Hussain (a.s) and his thirst on the day of Taf in Karbala, as a result he choked with tears and wept severely such that his dress became wet due to severe crying and sadness for his father Imam Hussain (a.s). Then he asked the food to be taken away from him. Then a Christian man came inside and greeted him with Salam and said, "O' son of Prophet of Allah, extend Your hand, verily I testify that there is no God but Allah, and I testify that Muhammad Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå is the Prophet of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and that Imam Ali, Amir al-Mumineen (a.s) is the Wali of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and His proof upon His creations, and You my Master are the proof of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì upon His creations, and verily the truth (Haq) is in You and with You and towards You. Then Imam Ali bin Husain (al-Sajjad) (as) said, "What has aroused you and brought you out of your religion and the nature of your fore-fathers and the religion of your companions?" The Christian man said, "O my Master, I saw a vision in my dream." The Christian man then starts narration his dream about Imam Hussain (a.s). And when he finishes narrating his dream... The narrator said, "When Imam Ali bin Hussain (al-Sajjad) (a.s) heard that Imam Hussain's (a.s) head fell in the lap of Lady Zainab (s.a.), He (a.s) stood up full length and struck the wall of the house with his face, as a result breaking his nose and split opening his head and blood flowing onto his chest. And he (a.s.) fell unconscious from the severity of sadness and crying."

 

[source: Dar al-Salam v. 2, p. 196 - 200]

 

---------------------------------------

 

During the mourning procession Imam (a.s.) wept loudly and tore his shirt. This accursed man by the name of Abu Awn al-Abrash wrote a letter to Imam (a.s.), that people were shocked by your tearing of your shirt in the procession of Imam al-Naqi (a.s.). Imam (a.s.) replied, O imbecile! Who are you and what of that? Prophet Moosa (a.s.) tore his shirt in grief of Prophet Haroon (a.s.). Know that there are people who are born Muslim, live as Muslims and die as Muslims and there are people who are born Kafir, live as Kafir and die Kafirs, know that you shall not die until you have disbelieved in Allah. Then he lost his senses and his family hid him from the people and locked him in his room since he went mad due to being overcome by the whisperings of Satan and having completely lost all sense of religion and rejected the Imam of his time.

 

[source: Bihar Al Anwar, Vol. 50, Pg. 191, H. 3 and 4]

 

---------------------------------------

 

Yet you go against these and our holy Imams and Prophets? I really do not know how these so called `scholars` actually can say words such as going against tatbir

 

 

 

When you have to prove something, then one must bring the proofs through authentic chains. The first two ahadeeth you quoted are mursal, thus dha'eef and cannot be relied upon. The last hadeeth only mentions that the Imam tore his shirt open and it does not prove the hitting of the chest or zanjeer zani or tatbeer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...