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Ali Al-Zaidi

Should I Do Tatbir?

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Salaam, I am a follower of Sayid Al Sistani, and it doesn't seem like he's given any fatwas or mentioned tatbir or zinjeer Zuni. So would it be considered haraam because one is causing themselves harm and sistani hasn't made an exception for it?

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Salaam, I am a follower of Sayid Al Sistani, and it doesn't seem like he's given any fatwas or mentioned tatbir or zinjeer Zuni. So would it be considered haraam because one is causing themselves harm and sistani hasn't made an exception for it?

If there is any decency left in a human being he should run away from it as far as possible. As ayatollah muhsin al Amin (ra) said, tatbir is from the encouragement of Satan.

Edited by Al-Khattati

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Salaam, I am a follower of Sayid Al Sistani, and it doesn't seem like he's given any fatwas or mentioned tatbir or zinjeer Zuni. So would it be considered haraam because one is causing themselves harm and sistani hasn't made an exception for it?

Tatbir is a cultural tradition which is permitted in some cases, but never recommended or encouraged. As a ritual of mourning, if one is to do it, it needs to come from the heart. If you have to ask others whether you should do it or not, I suspect you aren't feeling it, and therefore should not.

You are correct that it is not haram when done as an act of mourning and in a closed, private gathering, per Ayt. Sistani.

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Salaam, I am a follower of Sayid Al Sistani, and it doesn't seem like he's given any fatwas or mentioned tatbir or zinjeer Zuni. So would it be considered haraam because one is causing themselves harm and sistani hasn't made an exception for it?

sa

it is very simple .. pls ask ayatullah sistani on his website and get the answer directly from him as this is a fiqhi issue

it is his opinion which matters rather than making it a discussion here 

 kh

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Brother, my cousin sent question to Syed Sistani hz. The reply was "permitted if life is not endangered or bone broken". Similarly Nadar Zavari mentioned a link in other thread where it was told that there is no fatwa on zanjeer zani/ tatbir by Syed Sistani hz. So i beleive u can do it

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Tatbir is a cultural tradition which is permitted in some cases, but never recommended or encouraged. As a ritual of mourning, if one is to do it, it needs to come from the heart. If you have to ask others whether you should do it or not, I suspect you aren't feeling it, and therefore should not.

You are correct that it is not haram when done as an act of mourning and in a closed, private gathering, per Ayt. Sistani.

 

Sayyid Sistani has not given an opinion on the matter. But I find it fascinating how some maraja who do give opinions on it and permit it because there is no textual evidence stating that it is impermissible yet they will go out of their way to make 'aqli arguments in saying that taqleed al-mayyit is not allowed although there is no evidence for such either. 

 

I commend scholars like Sayyid Khamenei (may Allah prolongue his life) who had the courage to put an end to this barbaric Safavid/Qajari practice in Iran.  

Edited by Al-Khattati

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Khameneis words are not binding upon the Mu'mineen and there is much that can be said regarding him. But I do realise that his worshippers have infiltrated this forum and have taken up administrative positions, so I'd rather not.

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Khameneis words are not binding upon the Mu'mineen and there is much that can be said regarding him. But I do realise that his worshippers have infiltrated this forum and have taken up administrative positions, so I'd rather not.

 

His words are binding on those who follow him in Fiqh.

 

And please be more respectful when dealing with opposing views. There's no need for such petty remarks. 

Edited by Ali Musaaa :)

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Khameneis words are not binding upon the Mu'mineen and there is much that can be said regarding him. But I do realise that his worshippers have infiltrated this forum and have taken up administrative positions, so I'd rather not.

 

Why are you crying about Wilayatis infiltrating this forum. Make yourself a forum, name it Tatbir Worshippers.

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Tatbir is a cultural tradition which is permitted in some cases, but never recommended or encouraged. As a ritual of mourning, if one is to do it, it needs to come from the heart. If you have to ask others whether you should do it or not, I suspect you aren't feeling it, and therefore should not.

You are correct that it is not haram when done as an act of mourning and in a closed, private gathering, per Ayt. Sistani.

.

SA,

I respect your opinion brother, but I am simply asking because I am not particularly knowledged in this topic and wanted to avoid doing a sin. Please brothers,I am talking only about Ayatollah Al Sustani and weather one should assume tatbir is permissible or haraam. I realize it might not be the best idea to bring up the topic here, I apologize.

Thank you.

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It looks horrible with the blood and all, it would hardly make shia Islam look appealing and it might scare a few people away from shia Islam.

This is a ritual for Imam Hussayn (as) who cares how it looks, Tatbir is nothing of what the Day of Ashura really was, we want to feel at least the most minimul amount of pain that our master has felt on the day of Karbala.

 

Dont let the liberals persuade you to abandon Tatbir, engage in it brother Ali.

Ahsent and well spoken, Tatbir is the most closest and most sacred ritual of imam hussayn (as)

 

Sayyid Sistani has not given an opinion on the matter. But I find it fascinating how some maraja who do give opinions on it and permit it because there is no textual evidence stating that it is impermissible yet they will go out of their way to make 'aqli arguments in saying that taqleed al-mayyit is not allowed although there is no evidence for such either. 

 

I commend scholars like Sayyid Khamenei (may Allah prolongue his life) who had the courage to put an end to this barbaric Safavid/Qajari practice in Iran.

Recently somebody spoke out and said Sayid Sistani is against tatbir, but then Sayid Sistani spoke out and posted: the most recent quote saying that we are against Tatbir is not true.

 

Sayed Sistani (hf) is not against i

 

You commend Khamanei? Haha, (good for u)

 

How dare you call Tatbir barbaric, Inshallah you will be judged on the Day of Judgement

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I pointed to name him correctly with his title, as he is a Sayyed.Wrong or right is not about majorities.Even if my marja would allow tatbir, i wouldn't practise it.

Nobody is telling you to practice it, as for it is not currently Wajib but highly recommended for it to be practiced.

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Assalamu Alaykum,

 

Syed Sistani does not have any fatwa regarding Tatbir and Zanjir Zani, neither forbidding nor allowing. However do not take his silence as a forbidding of it, brother Nader Zaveri has found and posted a quote of Syed Hashim Al-Hashimi who is arguably one of Sistani's most prominent students in Najaf in which, the Syed says to do ruju in this case to the fatwa on another Marja, and mentions Sheikh Wahid Al-Khorasani who has a fatwa allowing it saying it's Mustahab. Syed Rohani also says it's Mustahab, while in a stamped fatwa of Ayatullah Ishaq Fayyadh (who also allows it) he states Syed Khoei said it has Ajr and Thawab for it, otherwise on his website you'll find that Ayatullah Khoei allowed it as long as there was no bodily harm. And there are more views as well, these were just a few, you can find some of the points I talked about, such as Ayatullah Ishaq Fayyadh's fatwa, or Ayatullah Khoei's fatwa in my post history. And to read the point of Syed Hashim Al-Hashimi he is a link to Br. Nader Zaveri's post: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235025715-zanjeer-zani-absolute-haram-or-conditionally-haram/?p=2742545

 

May Allah bless all the Muminin and grant the Azadar the Shifaat of Muhammad and Aal Muhammad, especially the Shifaat of Bibi Fatima (as) and Imam Hussain (as).

 

iltemase dua

wa assalam

Edited by Abu Tufayl

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Question: My question is that, what is the actual wording of the ruling of Grand Ayatullah Syed Ali Hussani Seestani (may he live long), on the issue of "Zanjeer Ma'tam"?

Answer: Ayatullah Seestani permits zanjeer matam provided there is no fear of loss of life or causing irreversible injury to any limb. On top of the list of Merjas I provide in my previous email here are some more Ulamaes who allow it.

2. The following Ulama are few of those who have allowed zanjeer zani:- Mirza Hussein Na'ini -Agha Ziyauddin Iraqi-Agha Muhsin al-Hakim -Agha Abul Qasim al-Khui (ref: http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/AalimNetwork/msg00165.html )

- Ayat. Gulpaygani & - Ayat. Araki allow the ritual of self-flagellation so long as there is no fear of loss of life or causing injury to any organ of the body http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/AalimNetwork/msg00034.html

 

http://www.islamic-laws.com/azadari.htm

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Question: My question is that, what is the actual wording of the ruling of Grand Ayatullah Syed Ali Hussani Seestani (may he live long), on the issue of "Zanjeer Ma'tam"?

Answer: Ayatullah Seestani permits zanjeer matam provided there is no fear of loss of life or causing irreversible injury to any limb. On top of the list of Merjas I provide in my previous email here are some more Ulamaes who allow it.

2. The following Ulama are few of those who have allowed zanjeer zani:- Mirza Hussein Na'ini -Agha Ziyauddin Iraqi-Agha Muhsin al-Hakim -Agha Abul Qasim al-Khui (ref: http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/AalimNetwork/msg00165.html )

- Ayat. Gulpaygani & - Ayat. Araki allow the ritual of self-flagellation so long as there is no fear of loss of life or causing injury to any organ of the body http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/AalimNetwork/msg00034.html

 

http://www.islamic-laws.com/azadari.htm

 

Why do you post secondary sources . Why dont you post an actual upto date fatwa from Ayatullah Sistani or a transcript saying he has no opinion. Instead you keep posting other peoples opinion about his opinion. 

In addition why do you post links to opinions of people long deceased. Disengenuous to say the least

Edited by A true Sunni

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TRANSLATION OF Q/A PAPER IN URDU - handed over by Aytullah Bashir Najafi office in dec 07

Q1) is azadari wajib or mustahab?

A1) If there is a chance that shiaism will be wiped out by not doing azadari, in such cases azadari becomes wajib, otherwise it is a source of great recompense.

Q2) what is the importance of azadari?

A2) Azadari includes all works whether action or speech which are mubah (ie not haram). It should be done with the aim of spreading word about the oppression of Imam Hussein Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã & other ahl Bayt(a) & the humiliation of their enemies. We have been ordered to do azadari, it brings great recompense.

Q3) During azadari of Imam Hussein Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, is it allowed to kiss the alam, taziah, zuljinah?

A3) It is not a problem to kiss, it is allowed. But to believe that an infallible (masoom) has ordered to kiss is not allowed.

Q4) what do you say to the wearing of chains on the wrists & the ankles.

A4) If one wears so as not to forget the imprisonment of his oppressed & innocent Imam Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, it is allowed. But to do so thinking it to be the sunnat of the Imam is not allowed. No masoom has ever ordered such a thing.

Q5) Is it allowed to ‘de-shirt’ oneself on the streets to do matam, where women are also present? A5) It is not a problem, women should not go to such places. Q6) What is your opinion about zanjeer & kama’

A6) If zanjeer & kama’ are done with the intention of spreading word about the oppression to which Imam Hussein Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã was subjected, not only is it allowed but brings great recompense. However, if before doing such matam, one is satisfied (itminan) that he will die or some organ of his body will become useless, it is not allowed. Similarly, it is not allowed in those areas where people, due to ignorance, will turn away from Islam or will feel a revulsion towards Islam.

Q7) While mourning for Imam Hussein Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã is it allowed to hit with a dagger or knife, which results in loss of a lot of blood. Is this a source of any recompense? While doing so, if a person dies, what is your opinion regarding this?

A7) If matam is done this way to spread word about the oppression of Imam Hussein Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, then it is a source of great recompense. If one dies during this, he will be included amongst the helpers of Imam Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã & the ahl bayt Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã But if he knows before doing such matam that he will die or some part of his body will become useless, it is not allowed. Similarly, do not do such matam in places where ignorant people will turn away from Islam.

Q) During majalis of Imam Hussein Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã some orators recite traditions about which we do not know whether they are true or fabricated, while others are definitely fabricated. Is it allowed to attend such majalis?

A) Bismihi Ta’ala. It is a major sin to recite & hear(while declaring them to be true) those traditions about which one is sure that they are fabricated. If attending such a majlis amounts to the acceptance & spreading the fame of such a false tradition reciter, it not allowed to attend such a majlis. Let it be clear that attributing false traditions to the Aimma violated their rights. It is the duty of every mo’min to refrain from such acts. Wallaho alam

 

 

http://www.islamic-l...com/azadari.htm

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TRANSLATION OF Q/A PAPER IN URDU - handed over by Aytullah Bashir Najafi office in dec 07

Q1) is azadari wajib or mustahab?

A1) If there is a chance that shiaism will be wiped out by not doing azadari, in such cases azadari becomes wajib, otherwise it is a source of great recompense.

Q2) what is the importance of azadari?

A2) Azadari includes all works whether action or speech which are mubah (ie not haram). It should be done with the aim of spreading word about the oppression of Imam Hussein Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã & other ahl Bayt(a) & the humiliation of their enemies. We have been ordered to do azadari, it brings great recompense.

Q3) During azadari of Imam Hussein Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, is it allowed to kiss the alam, taziah, zuljinah?

A3) It is not a problem to kiss, it is allowed. But to believe that an infallible (masoom) has ordered to kiss is not allowed.

Q4) what do you say to the wearing of chains on the wrists & the ankles.

A4) If one wears so as not to forget the imprisonment of his oppressed & innocent Imam Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, it is allowed. But to do so thinking it to be the sunnat of the Imam is not allowed. No masoom has ever ordered such a thing.

Q5) Is it allowed to ‘de-shirt’ oneself on the streets to do matam, where women are also present? A5) It is not a problem, women should not go to such places. Q6) What is your opinion about zanjeer & kama’

A6) If zanjeer & kama’ are done with the intention of spreading word about the oppression to which Imam Hussein Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã was subjected, not only is it allowed but brings great recompense. However, if before doing such matam, one is satisfied (itminan) that he will die or some organ of his body will become useless, it is not allowed. Similarly, it is not allowed in those areas where people, due to ignorance, will turn away from Islam or will feel a revulsion towards Islam.

Q7) While mourning for Imam Hussein Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã is it allowed to hit with a dagger or knife, which results in loss of a lot of blood. Is this a source of any recompense? While doing so, if a person dies, what is your opinion regarding this?

A7) If matam is done this way to spread word about the oppression of Imam Hussein Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, then it is a source of great recompense. If one dies during this, he will be included amongst the helpers of Imam Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã & the ahl bayt Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã But if he knows before doing such matam that he will die or some part of his body will become useless, it is not allowed. Similarly, do not do such matam in places where ignorant people will turn away from Islam.

Q) During majalis of Imam Hussein Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã some orators recite traditions about which we do not know whether they are true or fabricated, while others are definitely fabricated. Is it allowed to attend such majalis?

A) Bismihi Ta’ala. It is a major sin to recite & hear(while declaring them to be true) those traditions about which one is sure that they are fabricated. If attending such a majlis amounts to the acceptance & spreading the fame of such a false tradition reciter, it not allowed to attend such a majlis. Let it be clear that attributing false traditions to the Aimma violated their rights. It is the duty of every mo’min to refrain from such acts. Wallaho alam

 

 

http://www.islamic-l...com/azadari.htm

 

 

so this is the reason you decided not to go to Ayatullah Sistani and ask him direct. so dumb

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Nobody is telling you to practice it, as for it is not currently Wajib but highly recommended for it to be practiced.

Who highly recommended it? Highly recommended it means Mustahab. And who said it was Mustahab? Prophet Muhammad? Any of our 12 Imams?

 

The non Muslims give a damp about your practices. If you survey them you would find a majority against the holy quran, so stop believing everything which gives a bad name to islam

Its not just about giving a bad name, though yes it does matter. Whether you like it or not.

But its not only about giving a bad name. Its idiotic and stupid to think Imam Hussein martyred so you can run along doing Bid'a practices made by other ignorant religions. Instead of running around doing nothing, do something in the name of Islam and in the name of Imam Hussein, he martyred so his Shia can succeed, not become people who do tatbir and that is it.

And then you guys cry for Imam Sahib al 'Asr wal Zaman, and say "When will we see you?" No one will see him until he finds his SHIA are ready. When we become true SHIA. We need our Imam, he doesn't need us. And when you need someone, you work hard for him.

has found and posted a quote of Syed Hashim Al-Hashimi who is arguably one of Sistani's most prominent students in Najaf in which, the Syed says to do ruju in this case to the fatwa on another Marja, and mentions Sheikh Wahid Al-Khorasani who has a fatwa allowing it saying it's Mustahab. Syed Rohani also says it's Mustahab, 

So why didn't he say that the Mukallaf can go back to a Marja' that doesn't allow tatbir?

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Who highly recommended it? Highly recommended it means Mustahab. And who said it was Mustahab? Prophet Muhammad? Any of our 12 Imams?

Its not just about giving a bad name, though yes it does matter. Whether you like it or not.

But its not only about giving a bad name. Its idiotic and stupid to think Imam Hussein martyred so you can run along doing Bid'a practices made by other ignorant religions. Instead of running around doing nothing, do something in the name of Islam and in the name of Imam Hussein, he martyred so his Shia can succeed, not become people who do tatbir and that is it.

And then you guys cry for Imam Sahib al 'Asr wal Zaman, and say "When will we see you?" No one will see him until he finds his SHIA are ready. When we become true SHIA. We need our Imam, he doesn't need us. And when you need someone, you work hard for him.

So why didn't he say that the Mukallaf can go back to a Marja' that doesn't allow tatbir?

I want u to ASNWER this to me, how come Iran allows music inside their countries? Also on their Iranian satellite channels? Explain this to me.

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I want u to ASNWER this to me, how come Iran allows music inside their countries? Also on their Iranian satellite channels? Explain this to me.

 

When you cant answer my question, don't jump to a different subject. This proves your weak logic

 

Second, I'm not Iranian and I don't know what you are talking about. Besides, anyone can download music online whats your point? What do you want to tell me in the days of the Prophet Muhammad there wasn't anyone doing Haram?

Edited by John Al-Ameli

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I want u to ASNWER this to me, how come Iran allows music inside their countries? Also on their Iranian satellite channels? Explain this to me.

 

so by your logic Iran is allowing 'haram' on its soil therefore that gives you permission to do haram. Is this a case my 'haram' is bigger then your haram. 

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So why didn't he say that the Mukallaf can go back to a Marja' that doesn't allow tatbir?

assalamu alaykum

 

He only provided the name of Syed Waheed Khorasani as can be read in the post I linked to, any name after that I mentioned myself from my research. And if you have an issue with what Syed Hashimi has said you can go ask him yourself because I can't answer for him.

 

iltimas e dua

 

wa assalam

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