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Abu-Dina

How Do We Stop This Madness?

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I've been hoping that all the misery, death and destruction caused by the Wahhabi Takfiris in Iraq would open people's eyes to the true meaning of Shia Islam but then we end up shooting ourselves in the foot like we have done below

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2819307/Screaming-fear-moment-small-boy-gash-cut-head-Muslim-ceremony-commemorating-death-Prophet-s-grandson.html?offset=0&max=100&jumpTo=comment-67903342

 

Why oh why oh why!

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If Daesh killing innocents does not upset you as much as qama then you got a serious problem, bro.

 

I don't approve of qama on children who can't make up their own mind, but this is another attempt of the likes of Daily Mail to portray Muslims (Shias in this case) as barbarians and you guys are jumping over one another to concur. Just look at the comments section below to get an idea for whom this report was meant.

 

If you put yourself on the 'madness' and 'barbaric' slippery slope, then beating your chest black and blue is also barbaric, if only less barbaric. So where will you stop?

 

You miss the point bro. I think Taha meant to say that this is more damaging to the Shia than what ISIS is doing and in a way, I also agree with him.

 

We should not approve of qama period. Whether it be a child or a grown up.  Seriously bro. Is this what Imam Hussain died for?

 

There is no place for self-mutilation in the 21st century IMHO.

 

Lighting a candle, crying/weeping, donating blood, sheltering and feeding the needy. Looking after orphans, building schools, cleaning roads is infinitely more rewarding than mutilating your body!

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If Daesh killing innocents does not upset you as much as qama then you got a serious problem, bro.

I don't approve of qama on children who can't make up their own mind, but this is another attempt of the likes of Daily Mail to portray Muslims (Shias in this case) as barbarians and you guys are jumping over one another to concur. Just look at the comments section below to get an idea for whom this report was meant.

If you put yourself on the 'madness' and 'barbaric' slippery slope, then beating your chest black and blue is also barbaric, if only less barbaric. So where will you stop?

(salam)

Regardless of who the target audience is, it does not change the fact that this is a representation of the height of ignorance, something the likes of ISIS & co. are trying to make us (the shia) out to be and as such make the slaughter of the Shia seem legitimate.

I agree with taha in the sense that when we participate in acts like this that we are doing more damage to ourselves than ISIS has or probably will ever have. A point you missed by a long shot.

Big or small, young or old. This act should not be practiced by anyone. It's defaming to who the Shia are and what imam Hussein (as) stood for.

Moral behind my reply is, if you want to draw blood so bad, do it at a blood bank. God knows that would bring infinitely greater positive attention to imam hussein's (as) message than this nonsense ever will.

Sorry and (wasalam)

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(salam)

Regardless of who the target audience is, it does not change the fact that this is a representation of the height of ignorance, something the likes of ISIS & co. are trying to make us (the shia) out to be and as such make the slaughter of the Shia seem legitimate.

 

I have seen this argument repeated so many times it is laughable. Like or dislike qama, why Takfiris kill us has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Tomorrow if each and every Shia stops this ritual, they still would be killed in their mosques and hussainiays and neighbourhoods. So what will you give up next to placate the Takfiri? Will you stop mourning and holding majaalis and stop doing matam? Because Takfiris don't like this stuff either.

 

Takfiris object to your beliefs, to your very madhab in its entirety, to your rejection of The Three etc. Qama/zanjeer is not and never was a deciding or exacerbating factor.

 

 

 

I agree with taha in the sense that when we participate in acts like this that we are doing more damage to ourselves than ISIS has or probably will ever have. A point you missed by a long shot.

 

Which is a bogus point regardless of how you approach it.

 

No one with an ounce of intelligence in their skulls can get away with the argument that Shias damage themselves more by their ritual of qama than the bands of Takfiris killing them in every corner of the world. This is the height of self-negation and you guys in your distaste of zanjeer and qama go so far as to call yourself barbaric and mad. So why not leave it all out because, as I said, beating your heads and chest makes you look like mad people.

Moral behind my reply is, if you want to draw blood so bad, do it at a blood bank.

 

I will do that but not as an alternative to qama, and I will not tell my Shia brethren who have fatwas in support of qama to do that.

 

Wasalam.

Edited by Marbles

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I was never a fan of this or Zanjeer Zani, but the people who do this to themselves, do it in love for Imam Hussain (Alaihissalam). They want to show that, if they were there during the battle of Karbala, they would've sacrificed their lives in order to save our Imam. So we can't actually say that they're are wrong, it's up to Allah Taala to judge them. 

 

They can do whatever they want to themselves, but they shouldn't do that to childeren.....that is just wrong. 

Edited by Dudette

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The more attention that gets brought to these things, the better. Even if it is by the likes of the Daily Mail and Wahhabis. If people are embarrassed about it, then they should stop doing it.

Personally, I find it amazing that anyone could think a religion that emphasises so much on purity could have anything to do with these actions that smack of jahiliyya.

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I think IS kill every non -wahabi because they want to kill.They are psychopaths who need to justify their dark, sick hearts and minds and use Islam for it.

Qama, tatbir is very scary and disturbing... i think it was not part of mourning within the prophets as or ahlul beit as.

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I have seen this argument repeated so many times it is laughable. Like or dislike qama, why Takfiris kill us has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Tomorrow if each and every Shia stops this ritual, they still would be killed in their mosques and hussainiays and neighbourhoods. So what will you give up next to placate the Takfiri? Will you stop mourning and holding majaalis and stop doing matam? Because Takfiris don't like this stuff either.

Takfiris object to your beliefs, to your very madhab in its entirety, to your rejection of The Three etc. Qama/zanjeer is not and never was a deciding or exacerbating factor.

Which is a bogus point regardless of how you approach it.

No one with an ounce of intelligence in their skulls can get away with the argument that Shias damage themselves more by their ritual of qama than the bands of Takfiris killing them in every corner of the world. This is the height of self-negation and you guys in your distaste of zanjeer and qama go so far as to call yourself barbaric and mad. So why not leave it all out because, as I said, beating your heads and chest makes you look like mad people.

I will do that but not as an alternative to qama, and I will not tell my Shia brethren who have fatwas in support of qama to do that.

Wasalam.

(salam)

You quote me but your replies are so off what I was saying, that it is as if you aren't even replying to me. Convince yourself that this act has no negative reprecussions to the Shia community. Act as if when a non Muslim sees you cut a 2 year old's head with a knife, doesn't get them thinking "hey ISIS is killing these guys? Quick math, barbarian - barbarian = 0" You can see that from the very comments in the video.

My reply wasn't saying that this act gives legitimacy to what ISIS and takifiris are preaching and as such we should conform to them, in hopes that they would stop killing us. No, you are right in saying that giving up an act like this won't bring any resolve with the likes of animals like ISIS, they have a problem with everything that makes a Shia. However, this one act in question reeks of jahiliya, why continue it?

Edited by kbsquare

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I've been hoping that all the misery, death and destruction caused by the Wahhabi Takfiris in Iraq would open people's eyes to the true meaning of Shia Islam but then we end up shooting ourselves in the foot like we have done below

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2819307/Screaming-fear-moment-small-boy-gash-cut-head-Muslim-ceremony-commemorating-death-Prophet-s-grandson.html?offset=0&max=100&jumpTo=comment-67903342

 

Why oh why oh why!

 

Actually, it is not easy to change your mind 360 degree altogether. Our people grew up in an environment where they always had been giving arguments in favor of tatbeer to our sunni brothers. And this was obviously due to our lack of knowledge and contact with our maraje. Then our people suddenly heard that oh tatbeer is haram, has nothing to do with religion and shia'ism and this and that. Hard to swallow for the folks. :)

 

Majority of people - whether Shia or Sunni or even non-Muslims - do react in that same manner in this same situation. This is an average untrained mind's default behavior.

 

What we need to understand and try to make our people understand (especially the new generation) is that they should always keep a room in their mind for the opposite view. That when, in any matter, whether religious or social or else, at any point of time we find the opponent's logic and argument more powerful we should accept it. That's the true spirit of deen.

 

Once my teacher told me that always discuss with your opponents - even an atheist, yes atheist - with a humble opinion in your mind that if he will prove the otherwise you will admit his argument. (of-course after following a proper process - a sincere endeavor and consulting your religious authorities/scholars having several rounds of discussion etc). That words of my teacher were hard to accept for me at that time, but when I reflected upon them I gradually made myself understand that actually this is the true essence of religion.

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You miss the point bro. I think Taha meant to say that this is more damaging to the Shia than what ISIS is doing and in a way, I also agree with him.

 

We should not approve of qama period. Whether it be a child or a grown up.  Seriously bro. Is this what Imam Hussain died for?

 

There is no place for self-mutilation in the 21st century IMHO.

 

Lighting a candle, crying/weeping, donating blood, sheltering and feeding the needy. Looking after orphans, building schools, cleaning roads is infinitely more rewarding than mutilating your body!

 

There is the whole problem.

 

This is damaging to our image. That is. And that. Where will such people draw the line? You know where. There will ALWAYS be something "damaging" to our image and there will always be someone who will reason and say that there is no place for X of the subset in the Y century (!).

 

Who is stopping you from cleaning streets, changing diapers for your aunt, building and running public toilets fee sabeel lillah and all that? Go on. Give our image a positive boost, why don't you. Or do you think sitting at your puter and whining loud enough about things will solve all your problems (hey the internetz is global so lets keep teh fingers crossed!).

 

Why did Yaqub (as) cry himself to blindness? Its damaging to our image! But oh, thankfully it didn't happin in the 21st century.

Why did the Prophet (pbuh) cry for Hamza (as)? Why didn't he instead build a school of swordsmanship to teach Umar and Uthman to swing swords like real men?

 

And so on.

Edited by Darth Vader

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It is a longstanding cultural practice with positive intentions. My brothers and sisters: can't we respect each other? We want non-Muslims to respect Islam. We want non-Shia to respect Shia. Change starts from within.

Rather than condemnation, try to understand. Rather than hurling insults, think, learn, then speak out of love for our fellow Shia.

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There is the whole problem.

 

This is damaging to our image. That is. And that. Where will such people draw the line? You know where. There will ALWAYS be something "damaging" to our image and there will always be someone who will reason and say that there is no place for X of the subset in the Y century (!).

 

Very simple, we draw the line at the teachings of the Qur'an and the Prophet (pbuh).

 

Why did Yaqub (as) cry himself to blindness? Its damaging to our image! But oh, thankfully it didn't happin in the 21st century.

Where do you guys get this stuff from? The Qur'an does not say that Yaqub cried himself to blindness. Even if he had, it would not be a voluntary action, so there is no comparison with this stuff.

It is a longstanding cultural practice with positive intentions.

I don't really call a couple of hundred years a long-standing practice in the context of a religion that is over 1400 years old.

As for positive intentions, I'm sure you know the saying about the path to Hell being paved with good intentions.

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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Sorry but no. There can be no respect or serious discussion to cater this insanity. This "Tutbir" topic is brought up year after year and in each Muharram. The reasonings are weaker than the stuff Wahabiism is based upon. There is never anything worth a pause in it. And it always gets locked in the end and gives headaches to the admins. And then Ali-F starts the next one. Rinse and repeat. I would much rather read those again if I ever felt like it.

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Very simple, we draw the line at the teachings of the Qur'an and the Prophet (pbuh).

 

Where do you guys get this stuff from? The Qur'an does not say that Yaqub cried himself to blindness. Even if he had, it would not be a voluntary action, so there is no comparison with this stuff.

I don't really call a couple of hundred years a long-standing practice in the context of a religion that is over 1400 years old.

As for positive intentions, I'm sure you know the saying about the path to Hell being paved with good intentions.

 

A couple hundred years :D

 

We have accounts from India and Afghan Shia communities of zanjeer practice from 700/800 years ago. I'm sure Arabs and others well versed in their own local histories will be able to cite equally older examples of the same.

 

But even that's besides the point. The fact remains that some scholars have taken favourable view of it and they are certainly no jaahils. Other Shias are in their right to take an unfavourable view of it in accordance with the fataawa of their maraaji but they should do so with a little humility and stop condemning qama-doing Shias in the same vein as they condemn Takfiris and other anti-Islam people.

 

That done and over with, probably then there can be a useful discussion.

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@Haydar Husayn: did you read the rest of my post or only the first sentence?

Yes, I did. I'm just pointing out that it isn't a long-standing practice, and it deserves no respect.

A couple hundred years :D

 

We have accounts from India and Afghan Shia communities of zanjeer practice from 700/800 years ago. I'm sure Arabs and others well versed in their own local histories will be able to cite equally older examples of the same.

Please share these accounts. Even if it were true, which I doubt, it would still be a practice instituted after the time of the Imams, and therefore has no religious validity.

 

But even that's besides the point. The fact remains that some scholars have taken favourable view of it and they are certainly no jaahils. Other Shias are in their right to take an unfavourable view of it in accordance with the fataawa of their maraaji but they should do so with a little humility and stop condemning qama-doing Shias in the same vein as they condemn Takfiris and other anti-Islam people.

 

That done and over with, probably then there can be a useful discussion.

Those who are in favour it no doubt have their reasons, but it doesn't change the essence of the argument.

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@HH:

 

 

"12.84":    And he turned away from them, and said: O my sorrow for Yusuf! and his eyes became white on account of the grief, and he was a repressor (of grief).

"12.85":    They said: By Allah! you will not cease to remember Yusuf until you are a prey to constant disease or (until) you are of those who perish.

 

"12.93":    Take this my shirt and cast it on my father's face, he will (again) be able to see, and come to me with all your families.


Daesh and Anti-Tutbiri types suffer from the same illness. They want the whole world to work according to what they define as correct. Incapable of measurement and quick in passing judgment.

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@HH:

 

 

"12.84":    And he turned away from them, and said: O my sorrow for Yusuf! and his eyes became white on account of the grief, and he was a repressor (of grief).

"12.85":    They said: By Allah! you will not cease to remember Yusuf until you are a prey to constant disease or (until) you are of those who perish.

 

"12.93":    Take this my shirt and cast it on my father's face, he will (again) be able to see, and come to me with all your families.

Yes. Nowhere does it say that it was the crying that made him go blind, or even that he was constantly crying. Rather, it implies that it was the suppression of grief that caused the blindness. As I pointed out in another recent thread, this is a possible outcome of stress and trauma:

A conversion disorder causes patients to suffer from neurological symptoms, such as numbness, blindness, paralysis, or fits without a definable organic cause. It is thought that symptoms arise in response to stressful situations affecting a patient's mental health.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_disorder

 

 

Once again though, this has nothing to do with voluntary self-harm, even if we take your interpretation, unless someone is going to claim that Yaqub (as) made himself cry until he went blind.

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Please share these accounts. Even if it were true, which I doubt, it would still be a practice instituted after the time of the Imams, and therefore has no religious validity.

 

I will get you references but that's not important. Besides, this is a Sunni argument. Many rituals that have gained currency after the times of Imams aren't rejected just because they came about after the times of the Imams unless they conflict with basic Islamic teachings. Maraaji who have found qama/zanjeer to be acceptable must have known its later origins but has not found it objectionable. So we need better arguments.

 

Modern political marraji who have taken upon themselves to worry about the 'image of Islam' have non-religious reason for opposing it, and we also can't take those reasons seriously.

 

Those who are in favour it no doubt have their reasons, but it doesn't change the essence of the argument.

 

Of course it changes the whole argument if there were, are, scholars in support of it. If there were none and it was just a new cultural practice and had little or no support from marraji, then we would have a valid reason to reject it out of hand.

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I will get you references but that's not important. Besides, this is a Sunni argument. Many rituals that have gained currency after the times of Imams aren't rejected just because they came about after the times of the Imams unless they conflict with basic Islamic teachings. Maraaji who have found qama/zanjeer to be acceptable must have known its later origins but has not found it objectionable. So we need better arguments.

Sunni argument? So we can just make whatever we want part of the religion as long as there is nothing in the Qur'an and Sunnah that explicitly contradicts it in such a way that there can be no doubt whatsoever? 

Modern political marraji who have taken upon themselves to worry about the 'image of Islam' have non-religious reason for opposing it, and we also can't take those reasons seriously.

What makes you think that those who support it don't have any political or non-religious reasons for supporting it? Are you under the impression that it is only modern 'political' scholars who have opposed this practice? That is not the case at all.

 

Of course it changes the whole argument if there were, are, scholars in support of it. If there were none and it was just a new cultural practice and had little or no support from marraji, then we would have a valid reason to reject it out of hand.

No, arguing from authority doesn't change the argument at all. All this does is give a fig-leaf of support to those who are looking for a defence.

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No, arguing from authority doesn't change the argument at all. All this does is give a fig-leaf of support to those who are looking for a defence.

 

I am not advancing any arguments in favour of it but only saying that it's not as black and white as it's made out to be and therefore we should make use of a little restraint and respect each other than employ the same linguistic weapons as our outsider haters use against us.

 

Just as we do for other contentious issues and don't let one another call jahils and barbaric, we should do the same when it comes to qama and zanjeer.

 

That's all.

Edited by Marbles

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I miss respect towards the scholars who say that tatbir is haram, i don't mean in this thread, but in general.What names our respected scholars are called....bakri and batri, kafir and so on...simply for having their own ijtihad.

Edited by mina313

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Just as we do for other contentious issues and don't let one another call jahils and barbaric, we should do the same when it comes to qama and zanjeer.

That's all I'm saying too.

I, personally, do not like this tradition. Nobody has ever said it is required or even recommended. So I asked questions. I learned about its origins, justification, laws, and traditions. I'm not a scholar. Some people who have spent a lot more time studying the issue allow it.

If you want to build division in the ummah, go ahead. As for me, I'd rather focus on unity, which makes us strong.

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That's all I'm saying too.

I, personally, do not like this tradition. Nobody has ever said it is required or even recommended. So I asked questions. I learned about its origins, justification, laws, and traditions. I'm not a scholar. Some people who have spent a lot more time studying the issue allow it.

If you want to build division in the ummah, go ahead. As for me, I'd rather focus on unity, which makes us strong.

 

I, too, am not fond of this tradition either. What's more, I have argued against it in the past, on record. But I can understand why so many people do it. What riles me is the language used to discredit not just a few but a large part of our Shia population as being 'barbaric' and 'mad' and 'products of jahiliyah'. Oh but this is the same language Wahhabis use against all of us!

 

I guess Shias are so embarrassed with some rituals that they'd rather sound like Takfiris than take a charitable view of the fellow Shias.

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I, too, am not fond of this tradition either. What's more, I have argued against it in the past, on record. But I can understand why so many people do it. What riles me is the language used to discredit not just a few but a large part of our Shia population as being 'barbaric' and 'mad' and 'products of jahiliyah'. Oh but this is the same language Wahhabis use against all of us!

I guess Shias are so embarrassed with some rituals that they'd rather sound like Takfiris than take a charitable view of the fellow Shias.

Personally, I don't worry about what Wahhabis say before speaking. Wahhabis talk a lot about Tawheed and shirk, so does that mean we should avoid doing so? Oh, wait... Edited by Haydar Husayn

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I am not fond of Zanjeer, and especially when it is done to small children who do not understand what it is, 

Anyone who does it should do it voluntarily with an understanding of what they are doing and the risks involved. 

but at the same time, Br. Marbles made a good point that even if all Shia stopped doing this, Takfiris and others who are against us would find something else. 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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Personally, I don't sorry about what Wahhabis say before speaking. Wahhabis talk a lot about Tawheed and shirk, so does that mean we should avoid doing so? Oh, wait...

 

It's incredible that you don't see what I and notme are pointing at....which would have never happened if it wasn't about zanjeer but some other issue that divides Shia opinion.

The behaviour of some Shias in this thread demands a lot of self-reflection.

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I am not fond of Zanjeer, and especially when it is done to small children who do not understand what it is, 

Anyone who does it should do it voluntarily with an understanding of what they are doing and the risks involved. 

but at the same time, Br. Marbles made a good point that even if all Shia stopped doing this, Takfiris and others who are against us would find something else. 

Nobody is suggesting that people stop doing this in order to appease the takfiris. I couldn't care less what the takfiris think about it. The issue is whether it should be done, and what the effects are in terms of the image of Islam.

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