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Saudism

The Bible Was Distorted?

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Salam guys, Alot of my friends say that the bible was distorted, because in the Quran there is an aya that would say "Qolho w allaho ahad allaho al samad, lam YALED wa lam yowlad" This is a part of the aya that clearly says that Allah subhanaho w ta'ala did not give birth to anyone which means he has no sons, and christians claim Jesus is the son of God, but obviously that is not enough proof because you cannot expect a christian to believe the Quran, you need another proof that would make more sense, can someone tell me a proof? (btw I am muslim but I would like to know more knowledge on this particular subject, thank you.)

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Not technically distorted.

The belief in Isa(A) as God is their interpretation(or misinterpretation as we muslims wud have it), there are atleast two occasions where Jesus clearly says he is not God. Christians site a few verses but personally the only verse thats anywhere near convincing is "He and i are one." And even that can be easily disputed because of its ambiguity. Plus there are times where disciples are called sons of God(if i remember correctly). I think it was a way for God to show love to His followers. We must understand God does not have a family in the traditional sense. Technically, right from Adam to the present we are created from God. Therefore technically it is may be said we are children of God. Again you must not take this in a traditional sense.

Plus i think the christian definition of God is omnipotent and omniscient which mean all-"doing" and all-seeing. That means God is perfect. Yet christians say that God came down to know the sufferings of humans but this means that this god is not omniscient. In bible Jesus testifies that he was tempted by the devil. Christians will say since God was in human form, he was tempted(nauzubillah). This again defies the omnipotent characteristic of God and tell me do you honestly believe that God the ultimate creator wud be tempted by devil will you?

The thing you have to understand is psychology. They saw someone doing absolute mirackes unseen before. It is a weakness of human mind to be awed by power. Remember Muhammad(S) had to split the moon(as far as i remember) to show that he was indeed The Messenger. They wanted to see power, because power is proof. This has happened many times in history; some people perform some tricks and proclaim to be god and make a cult. When Jesus showed power like none before people were under the impression that he had to be God(of course many thought he was a wizard from egypt). So thats it from what i undertsand.

Some mis/interpretations+ psychological error made them think Jesus was God when he atleast twice in the bible opposed the notion.

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That's probably the best I've ever heard a Muslim explain it. 

It would seem the council of Nicaea liked all their gods in one basket.

Hypothetically speaking, but if God were to have a child, what's the chances it would be a mortal human?

Jesus often mentioned a father, and quickly summed it up by saying "Who is in Heaven"

This subject is so taken for granted by Christians and so over rated by Muslims. 

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All holy books have been through tahreef

 

If all of them (Quran included) have been through distortion, how are you muslim/shia? Your main source (Quran) is distorted and anything inside it can be right or wrong. If the holy book(s) couldn't withstand it, how are narrations/ahadith any different? What makes you muslim?

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What do you mean by the 'Bible'? The Christian Bible contains both the Old Testament and the New Testament. The New Testament mostly contains the writings of Paul, who clearly saw Jesus as divine. Even if we restrict ourselves to the Gospels, the one according to John seems to contain some claims to divinity on the part of Jesus. For example:

 

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. (John 8, NIV)

 

Compare with Exodus 3:14 (NIV)

14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

 

This would explain why the Jews allegedly tried to stone him.

 

 

30 I and the Father are one.”

31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp. (John 10)

 

Another attempted stoning. Something tells me this isn't how Jesus (as) would have reacted to the charge of claiming to be God.

 

16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him;not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself;he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. (John 5)

 

Again they apparently tried to kill him, and this time to writer of the Gospel appears to explicitly agree that Jesus was calling himself God.

Now, as for this being a 'distortion', then that depends on what you mean. I'm pretty sure this does indeed reflect the beliefs of the writer of the Gospel of John, so I don't think there is any distortion in that sense. However, in terms of reflecting the actual life of Jesus, then yes, there has been a distortion, and that is clear even by comparing to the other three Gospels, which give a radically different portrayal of Jesus. For example, they have Jesus preaching in two completely different ways.

 

In terms of textual corruption of the Bible, you may want to watch this:

 

 

And other related videos and books.

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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Hi Saudism,

Welcome to the Forum,
Quote from Post 1:
Salam guys, Alot of my friends say that the bible was distorted, because in the Quran there is an aya that would say "Qolho w allaho ahad allaho al samad, lam YALED wa lam yowlad" This is a part of the aya that clearly says that Allah subhanaho w ta'ala did not give birth to anyone which means he has no sons, and christians claim Jesus is the son of God, but obviously that is not enough proof because you cannot expect a christian to believe the Quran, you need another proof that would make more sense, can someone tell me a proof? (btw I am muslim but I would like to know more knowledge on this particular subject, thank you.)

Response: --- I see you are putting this in the form of a question, "The Bible Was Distorted?” --- that suggests you don’t really believe it was.
And the answer is that: “No, the Bible was not distorted or the angel Gabriel, who revealed the Surahs to Muhammad, would not have confirmed it as being true, would he have?
Notice these verses, in Surah 3:
2 Allah! There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal.
3 He (God) hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.
4 Aforetime, for a guidance to mankind; and hath revealed the Criterion (of right and wrong). Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. Allah is Mighty, Able to Requite (the wrong).
7 He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book --- and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. --- None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: “We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord;” but only men of understanding really heed.

It is very simply stated that the revelations to Muhammad confirmed that the former Scriptures were true,
Notice this: --- “CONFIRMING THE Torah and the Gospel,” --- which were written before the Quran was revealed, --- one revelation at a time to Muhammad.
The ‘Criterion of right and wrong’ was basically the Ten Commandments which have continued to be the ‘Moral Code’ for all generations, have they not?
--- And in verse 4, the warning for those who ‘disbelieve’ what the Quran says about the former Scriptures.

Verse 7 says again, ‘We (God) gave to Muhammad CLEAR REVELATIONS. --- “They are the substance of the Book.”
--- Those who try to explain the verses and give wrong interpretations distort the meaning, because they don’t have guidance,
--- “None knows its explanation except Allah,” --- (and those to whom He reveals it.)
‘But those of sound instruction say, “We believe therein (or, what is in the Book), the whole of it (O T and NT) is from our Lord.” --- But only men of understanding really heed (pay attention to it when they read and study it).

 

--- (The revelations given to Muhammad were not in book form for some years, --- and Surah 3 was written about the third year of the Hijrah, so there were many Surahs yet to be revealed.)

Notice in verse 7 that those without understanding, --- ‘pursue, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it.’

--- We see a lot of ‘allegorical explanations,’ which cause disagreement, --- when the answers can be found in the Quran and the Bible.

Since your other questions are about Jesus and the relationship to God, that is all in the NT, so we can look at the answers there later.

Placid
 

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If all of them (Quran included) have been through distortion, how are you muslim/shia? Your main source (Quran) is distorted and anything inside it can be right or wrong. If the holy book(s) couldn't withstand it, how are narrations/ahadith any different? What makes you muslim?

Actually I will have to ask if your a shia? Because tahreef was indeed an early view of tashayyu, so is the belief in Ahlulbayt being Allah manifest. So really the question should be aimed at you...

Edited by rafidhi1986

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Actually I will have to ask if your a shia? Because tahreef was indeed an early view of tashayyu, so is the belief in Ahlulbayt being Allah manifest. So really the question should be aimed at you...

 

Good job brushing off my questions and move the spotlight to me by replying with a question. 

No, I'm neither Shia nor Sunni. But my mistake, I should have read your religion/interests. 

Here's another question to add to the list above: Most of our prayers consist of Quranic verses, how do you pray, IF you do at all?

 

Thank God the majority are Usulis who are free of ghulu (referring to your Ali statement in the general discussion).

Apologies for the off-topic.

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The reasons that Muslim bring for distortion of Tawrah and the Injeel 

There is no doubt that the original form of the Tawrah and the Injeel were revealed from Allah The Almighty and were His true words. However, both the Jews and the Christians distorted and altered them; by addition or deletion.

The rational reason

 There are many distorted statements in Holy Books ( Tawrah and Injeel) that show they distorted. For example, the description of Allah in Holy Books implies that they distorted. These books descript Allah as jealous creature and someone whose rank is the same of Prophet Jesus. But no right mindedness (عقل سلیم) believes this idea about God.

 Also they descripted The prophets in a very bad way and accused them of something that are insulting. For example they accused Prophet Lot of sexual intercourse with his daughters or they accused Prophet Abraham and David. These descriptions affirm that they were distorted.

The holy Quran also have many verses that express that they distorted like 79 verse of Baghareh chapter or 15-13 verses of Maedeh chapter.  Therefore, according to different reasons they are distorted. Also many historical documents imply that these books are distorted and changed during the times.

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Hi Mirkhalil,

Welcome to the Forum,

Quote from Post 12:
For example they accused Prophet Lot of sexual intercourse with his daughters or they accused Prophet Abraham and David. These descriptions affirm that they were distorted.

Response: --- Lot and his daughters came out of Sodom and Gomorrah, the two cities that were destroyed because of the wickedness of those who practiced homosexuality.

The two daughters reasoned that the whole line of their father, Lot, would be lost if they didn’t do something to preserve that Jewish line.
--- And this is written in history which can be found in Wikipedia:
Quote: According to the biblical account, Ammon and Moab were born to Lot and Lot's younger and elder daughters, respectively, in the aftermath of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. The Bible refers to both the Ammonites and Moabites as the "children of Lot".Genesis 19:37-38

There is a map on the same page to show where the descendants dwelt.

Abraham had a relationship with Hagar and Ishmael was born.

David had a relationship with Bathsheba and Solomon was born, --- Solomon dedicated his life to the Lord, and the Lord gave him great wisdom as well as riches, and he became the King of Israel after David.

It is a wrong teaching that Jesus was equal with God, which I will explain later.

I am sorry if what is written in the OT Scriptures do not fit your image of God’s creation of man. --- From the beginning, His creation was perfect, but He gave the Cherubim angels a free will, and Satan, Iblis was disobedient to God and is ‘our adversary, the devil.’ and later gave Adam and Eve a free will, and they were disobedient to God, as well.

In Surah 3:3, 4, and 7, and in 5:48, the angel Gabriel confirms the former Scriptures to be true, --- and they have been preserved from the ancient manuscripts.
We are to believe the revelations that Gabriel gave to Muhammad are we not?

As A Christian, I accept the Scriptures as true, although we know with translations there are always some discrepancies. --- Our Book is the New Testament and I study the Quran in relationship to the Gospels.
Did you know that the same angel Gabriel appeared to Zechariah and said he would have a son, who was John the Baptist, the forerunner of Jesus?

--- It was predicted some 740 years before it happened, that a virgin would have a son. --- And the virgin birth of Jesus is mentioned a few times in the Quran, is it not? --- This updated God’s plan of salvation to the New Testament. --- So if the same angel Gabriel announced to Mary that she would have a son and call his name Jesus, --- and confirms it in the Quran, I guess we can believe them both, can we not?

Notice this verse in Surah 3:
45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

The Word came down from heaven to indwell Jesus who was born on earth, and it was the Word that was ‘of those nearest to God,’ as I am explaining in the topic, “Why did Jesus come?”

Placid

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Yay Bart! You made it in another post. Never get tired of agnostic atheists, or was it atheist agnostics? 

Does this mean I can quote David Wood? Actually, he annoys me more than Bart.

 

I still like Spicens answer better.

Never heard of Mark Glenn. A quick Google search makes him out to be either fascist, or a hair dresser so I dunno.

 

Good to hear there are friendly Christians out there worth an email.

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Hi Haydar,

Quote from Post 8:
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. (John 8, NIV)
Compare with Exodus 3:14 (NIV)
14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

Response: --- This is one thing that is not understood by the Trinitarians and that is where the faulty doctrine tries to say that Jesus was God.

I listened to the videos by Mr Ehrman, and have to smile a little bit.

When he started studying what the Bible said, he found out that the word ‘trinity,’ --- and the ‘doctrine of trinity,’ are not in the Bible.
I arrived at the same conclusion, but I didn’t attack the Bible as he did, but as I have said, the trinity doctrine is a faulty doctrine that came out of the newly formed Roman Church at a meeting in 325 AD.
Mr Ehrman said this is what is called ‘Orthodoxy’ --- Teach everybody the same doctrines that you want them to believe and say, “This is right, and any Church that disagrees with it is wrong.”
--- So that is where you get some strong doctrines that some Churches were forced to adopt, because they didn’t want to be persecuted.

However, not everybody is a ‘Trinitarian,’ and I have been told I am a 'heretic' for not believing that Jesus is God. --- However, I would rather believe the Bible. --- I know there are discrepancies because translations to other languages cannot always express the same meaning, (so this is why we can study different English versions of both the Bible and Quran).
--- Mr Ehrman became a critic but he didn’t take time to study the writing of the Gospel and realize the difference of the short Book of Mark, written for the Romans, and the Book written by Luke, who was a Greek historian, and wrote in detail for the Greeks. --- Nor did he acknowledge that the first Gospel of Matthew was written in Aramaic, when they traveled with Jesus and were eye witnesses of what He said and did. --- which the Greek accounts of Matthew, Mark and Luke were copied and translated from.
--- Sorry, but Mr Ehrman took himself off track in trying to prove his faults with the Bible, rather than examining where the Trinitarians went wrong.

Here is what is not understood by Trinitarians, and those who follow them.
--- That Jesus was born on earth from the Virgin Mary, --- He was a special ‘Being’ because God said, “Be!” and He was. --- So Jesus was the vessel that the Word came down from heaven and indwelt. --- Gabriel said to Mary in Luke 1, He shall be CALLED the Son of God, --- which He was. --- He had no human father, and God BROUGHT HIM INTO BEING, --- so wouldn’t you say He was the Son of God?
And He always called God His heavenly Father.

I call your attention again to Surah 3:
45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him (God): his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary.”

The same Word that indwelt Jesus in the NT was also called “The Angel of the Lord” in Exodus, who spoke to Moses from the burning bush, --- and then said to him in Exodus 3:
10 I will send you to Pharaoh that you may bring My people, the children of Israel, out of Egypt.”
11 But Moses said to God, “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring the children of Israel out of Egypt?”
13 Then Moses said, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”
14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.

Now we will go to the Scripture in the NT that causes the misunderstanding in John 8:
--- The Pharisees were questioning Jesus about the heavenly Father, and His relationship with God:
23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

Notice this statement: “You are from beneath (from the earth), I am from above (from heaven).
--- This was the Word speaking through Jesus, because Jesus was also from beneath, since He was born on earth.
--- (The trinitarians say that Jesus was in heaven before He was born on earth, but there are no verses that suggest that. --- But rather, --- that the Word was in heaven before, and could rightly say He was from above. The Trinitarians mistakenly say that Jesus was the Word, but it is plain in Surah 3:45 that ‘the Word came down from heaven.’

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
--- (This was the same Word who represented God at the burning bush and spoke to Moses, --- that now indwelt Jesus and spoke through Him to the Pharisees.)
--- The Trinitarians say that ‘because Jesus said this, He had to be God,’ --- but no, the Word was indwelling the human Jesus, and was able to speak through Jesus, the same as He spoke from the burning bush.

Placid,

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