Did Bibi Fatima Do Matam?

[Syed Muhammad Oan]

Salam Everyone

My class fellow posted a hadith of Hazrat Muhammad P.B.U.H on facebook which was (in Urdu) :

Title : Noha ki mumaniyat
"Jo shakhs Museebat main apne aap ko peetay ya geraiban pharay or jahiliyat jaisay pukare , wo hum main se nahi".

 

So I really want to give him an answer but I need a proof some hadith or some other proof from a reliable source so I can give him an answer . I've heard about the incident in which Bibi Fatima came running from her house crying and screaming doing matam. I was a good proof of that incident so I can answer him or anyone that questions about Matam . Thank u and God Bless u all :dry:

 

P.S Sorry about the English , I know it's not gud :no:

 

[Haydar Husayn]

I don't think there are any ahadith on Sayyida Fatima (as) doing 'matam'. There is one about Aisha hitting her face I think (I'm sure someone will come along to post this very soon), but even that isn't the same thing as doing it as a remembrance ritual every year. Also, Sunnis don't consider Aisha infallible, so they could easily just say she made a mistake, and you won't have gained that much.

[Ethics]

What is clearly established is no where does it say one cannot do matam and in the Quran that prophet Yaqob cried for his "lost" son till he went blind. Therefore anyone arguing the no harm on body argument is inconsistent.

[Haydar Husayn]

What is clearly established is no where does it say one cannot do matam and in the Quran that prophet Yaqob cried for his "lost" son till he went blind. Therefore anyone arguing the no harm on body argument is inconsistent.

 

Are you suggesting he made himself cry?

 

The Qur'an doesn't say he cried until he went blind, it says:

 

And he turned away from them, and said: O my sorrow for Yusuf! and his eyes became white on account of the grief, and he was a repressor (of grief). [Qur'an 12:84, Shakir]

 

And he turned away from them and said, "Oh, my sorrow over Joseph," and his eyes became white from grief, for he was [of that] a suppressor. [sahih International]

 

And he turned away from them and said: Alas, my grief for Joseph! And his eyes were whitened with the sorrow that he was suppressing. [Pickthall]

 

In other words, it was the suppression of the sorrow that made him blind, not the constant crying. Even if it were the crying, since it would be involuntary this would have nothing to do with voluntary self-harm.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Haydar Husayn

[Chaotic Muslem]

Salam Everyone

My class fellow posted a hadith of Hazrat Muhammad P.B.U.H on facebook which was (in Urdu) :

Title : Noha ki mumaniyat

"Jo shakhs Museebat main apne aap ko peetay ya geraiban pharay or jahiliyat jaisay pukare , wo hum main se nahi".

So I really want to give him an answer but I need a proof some hadith or some other proof from a reliable source so I can give him an answer . I've heard about the incident in which Bibi Fatima came running from her house crying and screaming doing matam. I was a good proof of that incident so I can answer him or anyone that questions about Matam . Thank u and God Bless u all :dry:

P.S Sorry about the English , I know it's not gud :no:

She was about to raise her hands and curse Quraish. I am Ali asked her not to. She wasn't doing ma'tam, it was when I am Ali was pulled from his cloths out of his house to give bay'ah.

Sayida Fatimah though cried for long period after the death of her father, she was asked to be silence because her cry annoyed her neighbors.

Crying is a common act that you will find many of ma'soumin practice. Hitting self or making the modern day ma'tam was not the tradition of their time.. guys you gotta really put things in perspective instead of insisting on finding a had it that says that coca cola is haram.

[Haydar Husayn]

She was about to raise her hands and curse Quraish. I am Ali asked her not to. She wasn't doing ma'tam, it was when I am Ali was pulled from his cloths out of his house to give bay'ah.

Sayida Fatimah though cried for long period after the death of her father, she was asked to be silence because her cry annoyed her neighbors.

Crying is a common act that you will find many of ma'soumin practice. Hitting self or making the modern day ma'tam was not the tradition of their time.. guys you gotta really put things in perspective instead of insisting on finding a had it that says that coca cola is haram.

 

If hitting ones self or doing 'modern day matam' is nothing but a tradition that varies with time, then what do you think of those that say the current rituals we have now are sacred and must never be lost?

Edited October 31, 2014 by Haydar Husayn

[Ethics]

Are you suggesting he made himself cry?

The Qur'an doesn't say he cried until he went blind, it says:

And he turned away from them, and said: O my sorrow for Yusuf! and his eyes became white on account of the grief, and he was a repressor (of grief). [Qur'an 12:84, Shakir]

And he turned away from them and said, "Oh, my sorrow over Joseph," and his eyes became white from grief, for he was [of that] a suppressor. [sahih International]

And he turned away from them and said: Alas, my grief for Joseph! And his eyes were whitened with the sorrow that he was suppressing. [Pickthall]

In other words, it was the suppression of the sorrow that made him blind, not the constant crying. Even if it were the crying, since it would be involuntary this would have nothing to do with voluntary self-harm.

His eyes became white. What do you think that means? Hint: "in grief". Not to mention the context of this verse and the next where it mentions that yousuf gave his shirt to cure his eye sight. Did you just ask if he made himself cry? What? That doesn't make any sense what so ever. Crying is a controlled factor by you. He was a prophet of God, He knew his son was alive. Besides he chose to feel sorrow. It's not like your just sitting in class and all of a sudden your eyes want to cry. Come on bro, that's just absurd. I cannot believe you used such irrationality. Oh sorrow causes blindness? Even if it was sorrow, it is something you, once again, control. You can be happy or sad, your choice.

If hitting ones self or doing 'modern day matam' is nothing but a tradition that varies with time, then what do you think of those that say the current rituals we have now are sacred and must never be lost?

As long as culture and rituals don't go against God or become a pronciple of faith, there is nothing wrong with keeping them. Edited October 31, 2014 by PureEthics

[lover]

If hitting ones self or doing 'modern day matam' is nothing but a tradition that varies with time, then what do you think of those that say the current rituals we have now are sacred and must never be lost?

The often abused term self-harm-used by both some Sunnis and Shia, to describe what they see as self harm- is another innovation of today. What I expect now are another -seemingly- ten english quran verses to come, to prove one's own point.

Edited October 31, 2014 by lover

[Haydar Husayn]

His eyes became white. What do you think that means? Hint: "in grief". Not to mention the context of this verse and the next where it mentions that yousuf have his shirt to cure his eye sight. Did you just ask if he made himself cry? What? That doesn't make any sense what so ever. Crying is a controled factor by you. It's not like your just sitting in class and all of a sudden your eyes want to cry. Come on bro, that's just absurd. I cannot believe you used such irrationality. Oh sorrow causes blindness? Even if it was sarrow, it is something you, once again, control. You can be happy or sad, your choice.

 

You really do just argue for the sake of it. You lose your child and you can 'choose' to be happy? SubhanAllah, think about what you are writing!

 

I don't know about you, but many people cry involuntarily when they are sad, grieving, or depressed. They don't 'choose' to do so. Of course, others can force themselves to cry, like actors for example.

 

As for what the Qur'an says, the point isn't what 'white with grief' means, it's the end of the verse that mentions that he was suppressing sorrow. What do you think that was about? This sounds something like conversion disorder:

 

A conversion disorder causes patients to suffer from neurological symptoms, such as numbness, blindness, paralysis, or fits without a definable organic cause. It is thought that symptoms arise in response to stressful situations affecting a patient's mental health.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_disorder

 

 

In other words, it is much more likely that it was the trauma and stress of the situation that caused the blindness, than simply crying a lot.

As long as culture and rituals don't go against God or become a pronciple of faith, there is nothing wrong with keeping them.

 

Perhaps not, but there is something wrong with making them sacred, and a part of the religion.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Haydar Husayn

[abbas110]

Allah swt has commanded in Quran for us to love the family of Prophet saww. He has made obligatory to send salutations on them at least 5 times a day. Therefore we love them and because they were oppressed in worst possible manner, it is source of great sadness and pain for us. If many of us cry, do matam etc then it is out of this love of Prophet and his family pbut. If anyone has problem with this in any shape or form then that is fine and we wish well for them. But if opponents go beyond and start to mock us or try to judge our intentions -if not kill us- then I say to them to keep hating because love of Mohammad wa aalay Mohammad is here to stay and will remain forever, insha Allah.

Edited October 31, 2014 by abbas110

[Ethics]

You really do just argue for the sake of it. You lose your child and you can 'choose' to be happy? SubhanAllah, think about what you are writing!

I don't know about you, but many people cry involuntarily when they are sad, grieving, or depressed. They don't 'choose' to do so. Of course, others can force themselves to cry, like actors for example.

As for what the Qur'an says, the point isn't what 'white with grief means', it's the end of the verse that mentions that he was suppressing sorrow. What do you think that was about? This sounds something like conversion disorder:

A conversion disorder causes patients to suffer from neurological symptoms, such as numbness, blindness, paralysis, or fits without a definable organic cause. It is thought that symptoms arise in response to stressful situations affecting a patient's mental health.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_disorder

In other words, it is much more likely that it was the trauma and stress of the situation that caused the blindness, than simply crying a lot.

Perhaps not, but there is something wrong with making them sacred, and a part of the religion.

Again, do you claim that you are sad or your mind is sad? Emotions are something we control and the state we choose to BE. Yea rationally speaking you can choose to be happy if your child is lost. Now the question is should you? Of course not. One should feel sad. This doesn't negate the fact that your state of emotion is in your hands. Let's not talk about what it can or cannot imply his condition was, that's Qiyas. If emotions were something we could not control, then it is implied that we have no control over them. No sane being has random states of emotions unless they have a psychological disorder. The proof in the pudding is the fact that one can choose to stop crying. What influences our emotions? Love, empathy, sympathy, hatred and so forth. Are all these uncontrollable,  not being able to choose? Does love choose its own target? Of course not. It is from these states of choice emotions are brought forth.

Edited October 31, 2014 by PureEthics

[Haydar Husayn]

Again, do you claim that you are sad or your mind is sad? Emotions are something we control and the state we choose to BE. Yea rationally speaking you can choose to be happy if your child is lost. Now the question is should you? Of course not. One should feel sad. This doesn't negate the fact that your state of emotion is in your hands. Let's not talk about what it can or cannot imply his condition was, that's Qiyas. If emotions we something we could not control, then it is implied that we have no control over them. No same being has random states of emotions unless they have a physiological disorder. The proof in the pudding is the fact that one can choose to stop crying.

 

I really, really, hope I'm not alone in finding this post absolutely absurd. Either way, I'm out.

[Chaotic Muslem]

If hitting ones self or doing 'modern day matam' is nothing but a tradition that varies with time, then what do you think of those that say the current rituals we have now are sacred and must never be lost?

The commemoration of ashura is sacred ritual and should not be lost. If things ought to change then they will do eventually and no need for extra attention to changing factor.

Crying for imam Hussain, beating chest, head and face is known Arabic way of showing sadness and was approved by imams. Reciting poems in gatherings and the theatrical like plays are also approved by imams.

These rituals kept the lantern of Shia lit through out the ages. It is resurrection of their affair, renewal and keeping it alive in hearts, in memory and in mind.

[abbas110]

An important video to watch. Ponder on what is being said.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7PgDM18v_Zc

[Haydar Husayn]

An important video to watch. Ponder on what is being said.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7PgDM18v_Zc

 

A very strange video.

 

It is claimed that performing these rituals will keep people away from sin, even if they don't understand what it is Imam Husayn (as) stood for. Well, this is clearly not always the case. Many people are under the impression that they can be loose with their practice of Islam for most of the year, but as long as they cry for Imam Husayn (as) during Muharram, their sins will be forgiven. This is the kind of thing that happens even to those who are quite knowledgeable about Islam, let alone those who hardly know anything.

 

Secondly, it is claimed that we can't develop a personal relationship with the Qur'an, but we can with Imam Husayn (as). Well, that may be true, but it's not the Qur'an that the relationship needs to be built with, it's Allah! And this is the problem here. Many Shias have a very strong emotional connection with Imam Husayn (as). Masha'Allah. However, when it comes to Allah, there appears to be nothing (other than the implied one that comes with having a relationship with the Imam). Therefore, instead of telling people to be aware that Allah is watching them, and to do things for the pleasure of Allah, etc, what do we get instead? Don't do this because Imam Husayn (as) wouldn't like it, wear hijab because that's what Sayyida Fatima and Sayyida Zaynab (as) did, etc. This explains why you will have Shias who get really pumped up about going to majlis during Muharram, doing matam, doing tatbir, etc, but find it a real drag to pray, to fast, to read Qur'an. You have people that want to find ways of offering supplementary prayers in the direction of Karbala, but are lazy about their obligatory prayers in the direction of the House of Allah.

 

The best way to protect our children isn't by getting them to do rituals, it's by teaching them what it is to be a Muslim. Otherwise, all that's keeping them in Islam is emotion, which is not a very healthy or firm foundation on which to believe.

 

Now, I know people will attack me, and say that I'm exaggerating, or even that these things don't happen, but those who are honest with themselves will know there is some truth to this.

[Dudette]

Did you know that mourning and hitting oneself was the Sunnah of the Prophet? 

 

Give your Sunni friend the following sources:

 

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 446

Sunan al Nasai, Volume 3 page 305

Adaab al Mufarad, page 426

Sahih Muslim Volume 1 page 291

Musnad Abu Aawna, Volume 2 page 292

 

We read in Sahih Bukhari:

Narrated ‘Ali bin Abi Talib:

That Allah’s Apostle came to him and Fatima the daughter of Allah’s Apostle at their house at night and said, “Won’t you pray?” ‘Ali replied, “O Allah’s Apostle! Our souls are in the Hands of Allah and when he wants us to get up, He makes us get up.” When ‘Ali said that to him, Allah’s Apostle left without saying anything to him. While the Prophet was leaving, ‘Ali heard him striking his thigh (with his hand) and saying, “But man is quarrelsome more than anything else.” (18.54)

 

Ibn Hajr Asqalani in the commentary of this tradition in Fatah al Bari, Volume 3 page 11 writes:

قوله يضرب فخذه فيه جواز ضرب الفخذ عند التأسف

“His statement ‘striking his thigh’ shows the permission of striking the thigh to express the grief”

 

If hitting oneself is Haraam then what Fatwa do the Nawasib have for the Prophet (s)? The Pillar of Shari’ah is himself hitting his chest, so if the Shi’a do the same, why are their actions Batil??

 

Brother: you will find many sources at this site: http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/azadari-mourning-for-imam-hussain/hitting-ones-body.html 

[Wing]

Ridiculous statements made just to fortify a view. Emotions are 100% controlled, what? Here's an example: a person starts hyperventilating due to fearing something and suddenly fainted. That was...........controlled right? 

 

The case of prophet Yaqub is often brought up in this topic but many fail to realize it is a comparision of apples and oranges. He didn't cry voluntarily. He didn't do it with the intention to go blind. He never intended to 'harm' himself. See the difference?

 

Organizing an event to hit yourself with a knife with the intention to waste/spill blood which goes nowhere is accountable. You could have done something more productive and donated it to save another person's life (in the name of Hussain), just an idea out of many. There is a difference between griefing and outright pointless hysteria/savagery.

 

Type matam in Google and see what you get. An outsiders first line would be "this is Islam(or Shia, if muslim/sunni/whatever already)..." Isn't this defaming Islam which is prohibited by many marjas?

[Ethics]

It is claimed that performing these rituals will keep people away from sin, even if they don't understand what it is Imam Husayn (as) stood for. Well, this is clearly not always the case.

 

True, however, 80-90% of the time, this is true. From my own personal experience in my community.

 

Many people are under the impression that they can be loose with their practice of Islam for most of the year, but as long as they cry for Imam Husayn (as) during Muharram, their sins will be forgiven.

 

This statement is not wrong in itself, however, it isnt fully right either. It depends on intention. Hadiths

 

Well, that may be true, but it's not the Qur'an that the relationship needs to be built with, it's Allah!

 

Why do you think people build a relationship with the chosen beings of Allah? Because they are a means to Allah. It helps us understand and get close to Allah.

 

 Many Shias have a very strong emotional connection with Imam Husayn (as). Masha'Allah. However, when it comes to Allah, there appears to be nothing (other than the implied one that comes with having a relationship with the Imam).

 

 

I would not unjustly accuse and judge people without knowing their intentions and positions. Very unislamic and we have no right to do such a thing.

 

 

Therefore, instead of telling people to be aware that Allah is watching them, and to do things for the pleasure of Allah, etc, what do we get instead? Don't do this because Imam Husayn (as) wouldn't like it, wear hijab because that's what Sayyida Fatima and Sayyida Zaynab (as) did, etc.

 

There is nothing wrong with such thinking. At the very least they are implicitly obeying Allah swt.

 

This explains why you will have Shias who get really pumped up about going to majlis during Muharram, doing matam, doing tatbir, etc, but find it a real drag to pray, to fast, to read Qur'an.

 

The point is they are going to the mosque which prays and duas, which is better than losing their faith all together. It can be a faith saver.

 

You have people that want to find ways of offering supplementary prayers in the direction of Karbala, but are lazy about their obligatory prayers in the direction of the House of Allah.

 

Thats just absurd. As usual, you always tend to add in a senseless point. I have never witnessed or heard of such a stupid case.

 

 

Here's an example: a person starts hyperventilating due to fearing something and suddenly fainted. That was...........controlled right?

 

Fear is a state of mind that one chooses to endure. If they never feared, they would have never hyperventilated, nor fainted. So yes, it was caused by choice. Do you blame the hole for pulling you in, or do you blame the person who was stupid enough to fall in it?

 

 

 

The case of prophet Yaqub is often brought up in this topic but many fail to realize it is a comparision of apples and oranges. He didn't cry voluntarily. He didn't do it with the intention to go blind. He never intended to 'harm' himself. See the difference?

 

Yes he did. He didnt have to cry endlessly till it made him blind. His blindness was caused by his own sorrow. I am sure he still would have cried until he became blind even if he knew he would have. Also, your false assumption is that his blindness was instantaneous and that he didnt intend to blind himself. Prove it. Crying non stop will damage the eyes gradually. He knew he was becoming blind. Hence, he could have stopped.

Edited October 31, 2014 by PureEthics

[abbas110]

A very strange video.

It is claimed that performing these rituals will keep people away from sin, even if they don't understand what it is Imam Husayn (as) stood for. Well, this is clearly not always the case. Many people are under the impression that they can be loose with their practice of Islam for most of the year, but as long as they cry for Imam Husayn (as) during Muharram, their sins will be forgiven. This is the kind of thing that happens even to those who are quite knowledgeable about Islam, let alone those who hardly know anything.

Secondly, it is claimed that we can't develop a personal relationship with the Qur'an, but we can with Imam Husayn (as). Well, that may be true, but it's not the Qur'an that the relationship needs to be built with, it's Allah! And this is the problem here. Many Shias have a very strong emotional connection with Imam Husayn (as). Masha'Allah. However, when it comes to Allah, there appears to be nothing (other than the implied one that comes with having a relationship with the Imam). Therefore, instead of telling people to be aware that Allah is watching them, and to do things for the pleasure of Allah, etc, what do we get instead? Don't do this because Imam Husayn (as) wouldn't like it, wear hijab because that's what Sayyida Fatima and Sayyida Zaynab (as) did, etc. This explains why you will have Shias who get really pumped up about going to majlis during Muharram, doing matam, doing tatbir, etc, but find it a real drag to pray, to fast, to read Qur'an. You have people that want to find ways of offering supplementary prayers in the direction of Karbala, but are lazy about their obligatory prayers in the direction of the House of Allah.

The best way to protect our children isn't by getting them to do rituals, it's by teaching them what it is to be a Muslim. Otherwise, all that's keeping them in Islam is emotion, which is not a very healthy or firm foundation on which to believe.

Now, I know people will attack me, and say that I'm exaggerating, or even that these things don't happen, but those who are honest with themselves will know there is some truth to this.

The points you raise have grounds and I understand them. But I believe you have not understood the other side of argument. There is difference between a 'Shia' and a 'Mohib' but both go hand in hand. I can not reply as yet due to lack of time, unfortunately.

Edited October 31, 2014 by abbas110

[Ali Musaaa :)]

 

 

Yes he did. He didnt have to cry endlessly till it made him blind. His blindness was caused by his own sorrow. I am sure he still would have cried until he became blind even if he knew he would have.

 

 

  :wacko:  Bro, are you honestly for real? 

 

He lost his own (most dear) child for goodness sake and youre sitting here telling us all he cried on purpose, absurdly claiming: "He didnt have to cry endlessly till it made him blind." and that: "I am sure he still would have cried until he became blind even if he knew he would have."

[Wing]

 

Fear is a state of mind that one chooses to endure. If they never feared, they would have never hyperventilated, nor fainted. So yes, it was caused by choice. Do you blame the hole for pulling you in, or do you blame the person who was stupid enough to fall in it?

 

 

 

Yes he did. He didnt have to cry endlessly till it made him blind. His blindness was caused by his own sorrow. I am sure he still would have cried until he became blind even if he knew he would have. Also, your false assumption is that his blindness was instantaneous and that he didnt intend to blind himself. Prove it. Crying non stop will damage the eyes gradually. He knew he was becoming blind. Hence, he could have stopped.

 

You're on a plane and it catches fire, pilots lost control and announce it's going to crash, survivability chances are extremely low. Tell me you're going to shout "I'm scared because I choose to"! 

It's not like you're having an option, you're not a robot. When an excessive amount of fear comes - or any other emotion for that matter, it will take you, in most cases, willingly or unwillingly, just like a tidal wave. I'll fix the hole analogy by inserting the word sink before it, who will you blame now?

 

He clearly loved his son and couldn't let it go. So everytime he was reminded, he cried, simple. How did you come to the conclusion that I thought his blindness was instantaneous?

 

[Ethics]

  :wacko:  Bro, are you honestly for real? 

 

He lost his own (most dear) child for goodness sake and youre sitting here telling us all he cried on purpose, absurdly claiming: "He didnt have to cry endlessly till it made him blind." and that: "I am sure he still would have cried until he became blind even if he knew he would have."

 

First of all he didnt lose his child, they were separated. Second, my point is valid. He DID NOT have to cry endlessly. The fact that he did, was his choice. Third, I said he would have still cried even if he knew he was going to go blind, because that is the most humanely thing to do. He was a prophet of Allah, who loved his son dearly. The simple fact of his son being away from him caused him to cry. It wouldnt be surprising if he cried knowing he would go blind.

 

 

You're on a plane and it catches fire, pilots lost control and announce it's going to crash, survivability chances are extremely low. Tell me you're going to shout "I'm scared because I choose to"!

 

Ask your self why would one be scared? For example:

 

1. For their life
2. For the separation of their family
3. For pain

If one was not scared FOR the reasons they are scared of, one would not be scared would they. You are scared because you fear something. If you do not fear anything, you are not scared. Simple logic buddy.

Edited October 31, 2014 by PureEthics

[*Sayyeda*]

I would not unjustly accuse and judge people without knowing their intentions and positions. Very unislamic and we have no right to do such a thing.

 

Yes he did. He didnt have to cry endlessly till it made him blind. His blindness was caused by his own sorrow. I am sure he still would have cried until he became blind even if he knew he would have. Also, your false assumption is that his blindness was instantaneous and that he didnt intend to blind himself. Prove it. Crying non stop will damage the eyes gradually. He knew he was becoming blind. Hence, he could have stopped.

(salam)

Equally could you prove he knew he would have become blind or wouldn't have stopped had he known. As you said in the same message we have no right to judge people without knowing their intentions and whilst we can surmise his position, we don't really know whether he knew he was becoming blind or whether it was sudden or gradual.

Moreover we have hadith of our Imams (a.s) crying non stop and even crying blood with no indication of eventual damage to the eyes.

[Ethics]

(salam)

Equally could you prove he knew he would have become blind or wouldn't have stopped had he known. As you said in the same message we have no right to judge people without knowing their intentions and whilst we can surmise his position, we don't really know whether he knew he was becoming blind or whether it was sudden or gradual.

Moreover we have hadith of our Imams (a.s) crying non stop and even crying blood with no indication of eventual damage to the eyes.

 

(wasalam)

 

No I cannot, that is why I said "it wouldnt be surprising". It is the nature of a father yearning his son. No harm can stop a father from reaching their son. Would you disagree?

 

Interestingly you stated that there are hadiths which the imams cry blood. Now tell me, they know they cry blood, why do they not stop then? Unless of course you dont believe in those hadiths...

[Haydar Husayn]

Interestingly you stated that there are hadiths which the imams cry blood. Now tell me, they know they cry blood, why do they not stop then? Unless of course you dont believe in those hadiths...

 

Unless of course they are metaphorical, which is known to happen with hadiths...

[Ethics]

 

Unless of course they are metaphorical, which is known to happen with hadiths...

 

Can you prove they are? Until so, it is literal.

[rafidhi1986]

What a rediculous question..

[Logic]

You really do just argue for the sake of it. You lose your child and you can 'choose' to be happy? SubhanAllah, think about what you are writing!

 

I don't know about you, but many people cry involuntarily when they are sad, grieving, or depressed. They don't 'choose' to do so. Of course, others can force themselves to cry, like actors for example.

 

As for what the Qur'an says, the point isn't what 'white with grief' means, it's the end of the verse that mentions that he was suppressing sorrow. What do you think that was about? This sounds something like conversion disorder:

 

A conversion disorder causes patients to suffer from neurological symptoms, such as numbness, blindness, paralysis, or fits without a definable organic cause. It is thought that symptoms arise in response to stressful situations affecting a patient's mental health.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_disorder

 

 

In other words, it is much more likely that it was the trauma and stress of the situation that caused the blindness, than simply crying a lot.

 

Gold!

 

This is a great example of what happens to you when you a become a Salafi apologist literalist drone....

 

 

Here is when these literalist start back tracking.

 

Unless of course they are metaphorical, which is known to happen with hadiths...

 

For the love of God, Be honest with others and take a linear approach. The amount of flip flopping you do is ridiculous.

A very strange video.

 

It is claimed that performing these rituals will keep people away from sin, even if they don't understand what it is Imam Husayn (as) stood for. Well, this is clearly not always the case. Many people are under the impression that they can be loose with their practice of Islam for most of the year, but as long as they cry for Imam Husayn (as) during Muharram, their sins will be forgiven.

Many muslims also believe Shias are kaafir - Many among them also believe they should be killed - Many among them also believe these shrines and majalis are waste of time - Many also believe Imam Hussain is (ra) not (as) - Many also believe Imams are not infallible.

 

 

Haydar logic - Since many believe that then it must mean all do - Blanket statement in which case you are outside the scope of Shiaism. Kindly hang your mod badge .

 

 

 

Now, I know people will attack me, and say that I'm exaggerating, or even that these things don't happen, but those who are honest with themselves will know there is some truth to this.

You are an outright liar who is towing the lines of people like Sean Hanitty and such . Only low iq people use the example of a few to apply to all but its quite evident that your religious training is coming from the mouth of HCY salafies.

 

 

If you actually beleive in what you say then i will find a camp of a few that you fit in which allows me to label you as a deviant or even a mushrikeen in same rare case. Would you consider hanging your mod badge since in your mind it is a reasonable argument.

 

Secondly, it is claimed that we can't develop a personal relationship with the Qur'an, but we can with Imam Husayn (as). Well, that may be true, but it's not the Qur'an that the relationship needs to be built with, it's Allah! And this is the problem here. Many Shias have a very strong emotional connection with Imam Husayn (as). Masha'Allah. However, when it comes to Allah, there appears to be nothing (other than the implied one that comes with having a relationship with the Imam).

 

lol what a bunch of crock.

 

The prophet (Saww) said " i leave behind 2 weighty things - Quran & Ahlulbayt" So how is Hussain (as) any different then quran.

 

 

Lets stop for a minute here - I think as a mod you need to start a thread on Imamate and your views on it. It seems like the idea of Imamate to you was just a worldy succession and that's it. This observation is not based on this thread alone but in multiple places where you spew your nonsense. 

Ridiculous statements made just to fortify a view. Emotions are 100% controlled, what? Here's an example: a person starts hyperventilating due to fearing something and suddenly fainted. That was...........controlled right? 

 

Ok so emotions are not controlled right. Person A hears about the event of Karbala and get lost in their sense of grief so they wail and beat their chest/head in the moment - Ayesha did it as well so i guess thats understandable.

 

 

Organizing an event to hit yourself with a knife with the intention to waste/spill blood which goes nowhere is accountable. You could have done something more productive and donated it to save another person's life (in the name of Hussain), just an idea out of many. There is a difference between griefing and outright pointless hysteria/savagery.

And i am guessing you are the person who is gonna define this difference - Am i right oh mighty one?

 

 

 

Type matam in Google and see what you get. An outsiders first line would be "this is Islam(or Shia, if muslim/sunni/whatever already)..." Isn't this defaming Islam which is prohibited by many marjas?

I get your point but i keep my mouth shut on side of err.

 

 

Just for the record the above point is moot and i can provide plenty of examples. .  Quran has made it clear that others will not be happy with you until you submit to their religion.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Logic

[StrugglingForTheLight]

People love Imams because they think they most beloved and chosen by God.  They don't love Allah because Imams told them to or anything like that. They also identify with them as humans with emotions and our feels of affection towards humans are very natural.  They relate to them more then relate to God which is understandable since God doesn't go through pain, suffering, and his emotions of love are not combined with weakness as in humanity. 

[Alvi Hussaini]

Salamalaikum,

 

Hazrat Yaqub A.S. did not cry continuously as reported erroneously. There are three incidents in Surah Yusuf where in the reaction of Yaqub A.S. is narrated.

 

1. When Yusuf A.S. brothers reported about the incident that a wolf had devoured Yusuf A.S. he said" FA SABRUN JAMEEL" that is I am doing sabre Jameel or the best form of patience. He did not cry. 12:18

 

2.When Yusuf A.S. brothers reported that " your son committed theft"  He said " FASABRUN JAMEEL" i.e. I will do the best form of Sabre. 12:83

 

3. Last incident " And he turned away from them and said: O my sorrow for Yusuf and his eyes became white on account of grief and he was a repressor (of grief).

[eThErEaL]

Ma'tom is involuntary self-harm?  I guess it depends how hard you hit yourself and whether it was done involuntarily.  Some people hit themselves so hard that their chest becomes red (whether they do it voluntarily or not is the question now).  So, my question to people here is:

 

Has anyone ever involuntarily hit his/her chest really hard out of grief for the Imams?        

Edited November 26, 2014 by eThErEaL

[Kamber Ali]

We cannot accuse prophets of not being in control of their emotions. Its a vice, and the prophets and the imams have no vices.

Therefore, I would have to say that PureEthics is right.