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In the Name of God بسم الله

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What is reason behind it? My brother told me that he was present at Harm of Syeda Zainab a.s and was sitting alone on a cornder covering his face and shedding tears when an Iranian (who appeared from his facial features to be iranian) came there and started pushing him away while there was no one. He kept on saying "Yala, Yala" (Run from here). My brother said he was very annoyed by this rude behavior of Iranians. 

Yalla Yalla is something used by Arabs precisely Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, and Jordan, but mostly by Lebanese and Syrians. Not Persian.

Yalla can mean alooooot of things, depends how it was put in context. 

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Giving a whole country an epithet like 'overflowing toilet' contributes to prejudicial perceptions which, left uncontested, ultimately lead to more nasty and entrenched set of views. Which is precisely what was at work when I was refused a room in Mashhad; it was not because the guy knew me or had previous experience with me; it was the consequence of a perception which your post contributes to.

 

There are two classes of Pakistanis. Those who are rich enough to insulate themselves from the smell of the overflowing toilet and those who can't. I belong to the latter group and having lived through the stench, that I can still remember the smell in leafy north London, 6 years after my last visit, I think it's reasonable for me to describe it that way.

 

I understand your pain when travelling abroad, but that just goes to show that while rich Pakistanis can ignore the problems at home to some extent, they are not completely immune from them. And the only way would be for the financial and intellectual elites to provide some form of leadership.

 

Such leadership, itself, would have to be in the form of the self-discipline that is needed to vote for more taxes on the rich themselves, that would help to pay for the cleaning up that is so badly needed.

Edited by Haji 2003

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Such leadership, itself, would have to be in the form of the self-discipline that is needed to vote for more taxes on the rich themselves, that would help to pay for the cleaning up that is so badly needed.

 

Why would the rich vote for more taxes on themselves, when they can always escape to elsewhere if the stench gets too bad? Besides, while they are also not completely insulated, reality it is more like a leak here and there - for the most part they live in a completely different world. Much of the violence is localized in poor areas of the country/cities, the worst garbage is also in the poor areas, the worst traffic and the rotten public transportation system is taken by the working class, same with education, health care and whatever else one can think off. If one looks at the cost benefit of paying taxes versus not, on the balance - not paying taxes, and remaining super wealthy is more materially beneficial for the rich. 

Edited by skylight2

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There are two classes of Pakistanis. Those who are rich enough to insulate themselves from the smell of the overflowing toilet and those who can't. I belong to the latter group and having lived through the stench, that I can still remember the smell in leafy north London, 6 years after my last visit, I think it's reasonable for me to describe it that way.

 

I understand your pain when travelling abroad, but that just goes to show that while rich Pakistanis can ignore the problems at home to some extent, they are not completely immune from them. And the only way would be for the financial and intellectual elites to provide some form of leadership.

 

Such leadership, itself, would have to be in the form of the self-discipline that is needed to vote for more taxes on the rich themselves, that would help to pay for the cleaning up that is so badly needed.

I would treat the problem of broken/non-existent sewage system in less well-off neighbourhoods caused by a callous administration separately. People there cry day and night but no one listens unless they use some influence with the authorities and get them to fix a blown up sewage line. But honesty, people of certain background, not just the paindus, but less educated, uncultured people from anywhere in the world when they visit better kept countries tend to generate a lot of anxiety due to their habits. Given the sort and number of Pakis who visit Iran, I'm not surprised Iranians complain. I find it interesting that some Pakis make similar complaints about more destitute and more mess-making Afghans in Karachi and other cities.

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Salaam bro Aabiss Shakari:

Let me give you an example from my own experience. I went to see a footie match between Esteghlal Tehran and Teraktorsazi Tabriz in Azadi stadium (in Tehran). Around 20-30 thousand Tabrizi fans traveled to watch this game. Out of the 100 thousand people at Azadi stadium, I would say 25 thousand were Tabrizis, 65 thousand were Esteghlalis, and the remaining 10 thousand were cops. There were cops in full riot gear for miles and miles leading to the stadium, there were cops separating the Tabrizis and Esteghlalis (using the traditional method of leaving entire sections of the stadium empty to use them as barricades).

 

You think that display of force was overkill?

 

You won't after you read what happened. The Tabrizi fans had gotten a hold of rocks, somehow, and were throwing them both on the pitch and at the police and Esteghlali fans. The Esteghlalis responded with a racist chant of: "eshak! eshak! eshak!"

 

Why is it racist? "Eshak" is Azeri for "donkey." Calling someone donkey is synonymous to calling someone stupid. The racist stereotype about Azeris (or Turks as they are called in Iran), is that they are dumb. (That's why I mentioned the chant as being racist.)

 

No wonder women aren't allowed to attend matches in Iran, if that's how the men behave.

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I think the Pakistani man was doing it wrong way. He was annoyingly stubborn and won't accept a simple no. I am sure there were others with children and others with elderly and sick individuals who made it in person and those who made the effort to come in person and stand in long line have priority to the one who wants to be exempted from the law. I deal with crowds daily and many of them are seeking to be exempted from law. If I let all of them go away with it then my work will be pointless and rubbish. I know in some places in east, law is an obstacle more than a facilitator but that's not true on every eastern county. Sometimes the law is there to serve you. If you were there with your children and elderly mom who is I'l, and a man in front of you brought passports for his family and he was let go away with it then the staff told you that there is no more avail seat for you and your family, do you think that is fair?

If it is only for barakah, he can do with one loaf. He could get himself a seat then took some of the food for his family, if the food is blessed it will suffice them without a doubt. What a bless is there in a food that was taken with quarrel, embarrassing some young scholars, putting bad image on your people, making a show, making others go angry, Maki get people insult their brothers, and turning the shrine of imam into a place where brotherhood shrink.

Maybe him moving away would have been more rewadfull act than eating that food.

O ye who believe! When ye are told to make room in the assemblies, (spread out and) make room: (ample) room will Allah provide for you. And when ye are told to rise up, rise up Allah will rise up, to (suitable) ranks (and degrees), those of you who believe and who have been granted (mystic) Knowledge. And Allah is well-acquainted with all ye do

If I was the Iranian I may put the passports to side, finish all those who are present and after I finish and there was room I may let him in with his family.

 

Disrespect is disrespect and not something positive or humane or islamic no matter what the reason....

 

and yet you'd never see any Western officer chucking away someone's passport. The pilgrim could not have been more irrational or hard to tolerate than some drug addict hobo that go to salvation army in Western countries... and yet even they are treated with more respect and dignity than Muslims treating ordinary Muslims. Why is that?

 

And such behavior is not limited to Iranians alone... Arabs, Pakistanis, Afghans are no exception. IMO we are ill cultured and could learn alot. The first step towards that is acknowledgement of our shortcomings and not justification for it.

I volunteered at a soup kitchen in Montreal for a while and you'd be amazed at how much effort was put on training us to be respectful and kind with people who according to me at the time deserved none. Homeless folks would throw tantrums, criticize their perfectly fine food, pick fights etc.... no one had the right to be disrespectful or insulting even when they became violent...for which the security guards were there to deal with them and they too were not allowed to push them or beat them or insult them but simply remove them from the premise. Thats culture. Thats civility. Thats humanity. Thats true Islam.

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Disrespect is disrespect and not something positive or humane or islamic no matter what the reason....

and yet you'd never see any Western officer chucking away someone's passport. The pilgrim could not have been more irrational or hard to tolerate than some drug addict hobo that go to salvation army in Western countries... and yet even they are treated with more respect and dignity than Muslims treating ordinary Muslims. Why is that?

And such behavior is not limited to Iranians alone... Arabs, Pakistanis, Afghans are no exception. IMO we are ill cultured and could learn alot. The first step towards that is acknowledgement of our shortcomings and not justification for it.

Ha.

There is security at official places to deal with such people.

What I wanted to say is not related to east vs west nor to superior vs inferior troubles.

I was saying that visitors to holy places are seeking blessings and to please imams. In just places you might meet all sorts of people both the good and the bad, the educated and the ignorant, the poor and the rich, the smelly and the clean, the honest and thieves. It is not a paid university nor a mall nor a park for luxury nor any place that is being defined by socioeconomic status unlike many other institutions.

Visitors to shrines should keep in mind few things regardless what sort of treatment they got: cause no trouble.

You should not rise your voice, quarrel and argue. We have been beaten, denied access, called names, treated unjustly, pushed during prayer by the ka'bah. We should not react to these things.

Also, we should not really help in extracting the worst in people by straining them morally .

I saw the Iranian visitors to imam Hussain shrine and their pushing habits. The once was nice Iraqi staff turned angry and yelling bru bru to the face of Iranians due to their great disorder . Why?

Why we should be chaotic then also have the audacity to judge the morality of those who got frustrated?

The manners of worshipping place are all about order, not about hugging and kissing each others.

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Ha.

There is security at official places to deal with such people.

What I wanted to say is not related to east vs west nor to superior vs inferior troubles.

I was saying that visitors to holy places are seeking blessings and to please imams. In just places you might meet all sorts of people both the good and the bad, the educated and the ignorant, the poor and the rich, the smelly and the clean, the honest and thieves. It is not a paid university nor a mall nor a park for luxury nor any place that is being defined by socioeconomic status unlike many other institutions.

Visitors to shrines should keep in mind few things regardless what sort of treatment they got: cause no trouble.

You should not rise your voice, quarrel and argue. We have been beaten, denied access, called names, treated unjustly, pushed during prayer by the ka'bah. We should not react to these things.

Also, we should not really help in extracting the worst in people by straining them morally .

I saw the Iranian visitors to imam Hussain shrine and their pushing habits. The once was nice Iraqi staff turned angry and yelling bru bru to the face of Iranians due to their great disorder . Why?

Why we should be chaotic then also have the audacity to judge the morality of those who got frustrated?

The manners of worshipping place are all about order, not about hugging and kissing each others.

 

Mathematically speaking, its harder to educate the mass and easier to educate the employees. I believe that it was Gandhi who said that food mixed with poison becomes poisonous. That negativity can never be good even when there are good reasons behind it. There are and there should be better ways of dealing in such situations than responding to a negative act (action of the pilgrim) by another negative act as it creates, as it already has, a downward spiral of negativity.

What would Imam Reza do in such a situation? Throw the passport away and be rude or otherwise? As an employee of his shrine, he should be an example of Imam's path.

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I find it interesting that some Pakis make similar complaints about more destitute and more mess-making Afghans in Karachi and other cities.

 

I came across one group of Afghan tenants in a property I rent out. Never again. Same goes for certain other nationalities. English people I have never had a problem with, but that's because I have had enough experience with English people to know who'll make good tenants and who won't.

 

That's the key issue. We always discriminate. But it does not feel like discrimination when we deal with our own ethnic group etc. because we are able to discriminate more finely.

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Mathematically speaking, its harder to educate the mass and easier to educate the employees. I believe that it was Gandhi who said that food mixed with poison becomes poisonous. That negativity can never be good even when there are good reasons behind it. There are and there should be better ways of dealing in such situations than responding to a negative act (action of the pilgrim) by another negative act as it creates, as it already has, a downward spiral of negativity.

I disagree. It is known among Shia that prophet is alive, hear us pay him Salam. During our visits to madina, the staff there used to yell and hit. Each time a Shia will remind them to respect the place and the prophet presence. Been ages since I visited but last time I was there it was the staff reminding her fellow sunnies to respect the place and not yell or fight.

I think Islam is fixing society in both directions and since we are all here visitors not some staff in shrine then maybe it is more productive to talk about what can we change in ourselves in specific place and improve one . Much better than the racist talk.

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sallam.

beside the fact that i think just a few people in Iran has such behaviour toward Pakistanis or others. i on behalf of those  who treated in a bad manner apologize to you.

by the way there are many speech and work in Iran about the crimes in pakistan and kashmir toward  shias.anyway be aware what we need is unity and trying to strenghten it.

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That's the key issue. We always discriminate. But it does not feel like discrimination when we deal with our own ethnic group etc. because we are able to discriminate more finely.

 

My main concern is when this light, factual, experience-based discrimination - a gentleman's discrimination, if you will - develops into a strong and broad prejudice, which, fanned further, is capable of metamorphosing into nasty shapes, as we have seen happening repeatedly all around the world.

 

For instance Europeans' grievances about rapid demographic change are giving way to different kinds of phobias. Or how perceptions of Afghan criminality have became a society-wide prejudice against their numbers residing in Iran.

 

There is little chance of the same happening within our own group.

 

This is why it is important to challenge the dialectics of discrimination at its roots, if only for better social cohesion and community relations.

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If you seek pride in discriminating others based on your experiences, its best you keep it to yourselves unless you are collectively working to establish a charity to solve the issue

 

Today you are presented honour, respect and most of our basic requirements are met perfectly (esp. in the west)....now establishing our freedom we are able to spend time online reaching millions of other viewers....the question is then how good are we when we use our God given free will to then form discriminatory remarks against others....maybe against those who are less privileged. I rather be in poverty then extend myself above others with prejudice/bigotry.

 

Imam Ali (as)....a beacon of light amongst the darkest of men....a king in his own right, chose to live amongst the poor and the least privileged....I do not recall him forming such opinions of others...but more-so accepting them as his own.

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This is so insightful and accurate. You put in words what I've long thought but didn't know how to express.

 

This explains the dilemma a lot of non-Iranian Muslims have in America or other places they encounter Iranians: they respect Iran on a macro-level (the country, the culture, the history, the regime in some cases), but on the micro-level with individual day-to-day dealings they don't like Iranians and find them unpleasant. Actually most Iranians feel the same way!

 

And that's because of what you describe. It's a nation of passive-aggressive tension. Unlike its neighbors Iran doesn't break out into violent genocidal ethnic strife every once in a while. But instead every day interactions are filled with insulting language, casual racism, rudeness, being overly competitive, back-talking, gossip, elitism, snobbiness etc.  Arabs Turks, and other Middle Easterners are much more pleasant company on the individual level because they are are cordial and warm but then have massive bloodshed / sectarian warfare every few years to let it all out.

 

Yeah Iranians are quite unpleasant to be around.

 

Let me give you an example of what passes as a "joke" in Iran:

 

Have you ever noticed how you can punch your knee in many spots and it won't really hurt... but there is this one magical tiny spot that will hurt like hell? One day, many years ago, my cousin set off on a journey to find that spot on my knee. He kept hitting away. I tried to ignore him. He kept going. Minutes pass. I tell him: "Just give up. It's not hurting me." He starts punching with more intensity. A fight ensues.

 

And that's Iranian "humor."

 

That and racist jokes. That's what we find funny.

 

Now you may think: well that sounds annoying. It was annoying. And yet now when I look back on it, I find it hilarious and remember it very fondly.

 

 

FYI all the criticisms I made of Iranians applies to common folk like myself, not to our top ulama or to the shohada.

 

 

To the OP:

If the man was saying Yala Yala then he wasn't iranian....plus ur brother must have been in Syria if he is visiting Syeda Zainab ((sa)...most likely the man was Arab.

 

Yalla Yalla is something used by Arabs precisely Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, and Jordan, but mostly by Lebanese and Syrians. Not Persian.

Yalla can mean alooooot of things, depends how it was put in context. 

 

I don't mean to alarm you guys but Iranians say yalla too. Not as much as Levantines of course, but it's not like the usage of the term completely proves that someone is not Iranian.

 

Although in retrospect, it is odd that the brother Aabis' relative assumed the guy was Iranian if he was in Sayyeda Zainab shrine!!!

 

No wonder women aren't allowed to attend matches in Iran, if that's how the men behave.

 

This is not just the real reason, this is also the official reason. Western media tries to make it into a "human's rights" or "woman's rights" issue. That's because they know nothing about our country. During the world cup, stupid ESPN even snuck some douchey comments about this prohibition in their summary of Iran's world cup performance. (as Rocky IV taught us, the United States TOTALLY DOESN'T POLITICIZE SPORTS, except when it does)

 

I wish these people would either get a life or step outside the cave they are living in and becoming more acquainted with the world.

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