Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Recommended Posts

  • Veteran Member

(salam)

 

I have never gone in Iran but my friends, my relatives and even my brother speaks about bad behavior of Iranians with Pakistanis. What is reason behind it? My brother told me that he was present at Harm of Syeda Zainab a.s and was sitting alone on a cornder covering his face and shedding tears when an Iranian (who appeared from his facial features to be iranian) came there and started pushing him away while there was no one. He kept on saying "Yala, Yala" (Run from here). My brother said he was very annoyed by this rude behavior of Iranians. He said Iranians have complete hold in the Shrine of Bibi Zainab a.s and they treat Pakistanis realy bad. Similarly, my maternal uncle who was martyred by terrorits also visited Iran and told that Iranians do not treat Pakistanis well. If you ask me i am Shia and i love every Shia in the world to whatsoever race he belongs to. But i am quite surprised to know this behavior of Iranians with Pakistanis. Is this the major reason of Iran's not concerning Shia killings in Pakistan? Pakistan is hub of Shia killing in the world after Iraq. But Iran never raised any voice ont his. Yet iran is concerned with Palestinian issue or issue of Syria but you can slaughter the whole Shia generation in Pakistan, Iran will continue its so called "harmony among muslims" policy at EVERY COST.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ws.

1)what makes you say iran never raised a voice against pakistani killings. If you go to leader.ir or khamenei.ir i am certain u will find they have.

2) one thing to note- just because someone dont say theyre doing something, doesnt mean they arent. If we use basirah, well see how its quite logical that iran doesnt openly fund certain organisations in pakistan. It doesnt mean they dont, and its wrong to say of a muslim nation and accuse them of not helping their brothers in pakistan.

3) just because u or someone u know has met an iranian who was racist, does not mean all iranians are racist. There may be irreligious people who are. The government policies and hawza certainly are not. If we look, for example at imams relations with shahid arif. Iran is what funds many of the religious orgs in pakistan. Just because a centre or mosque doesnt openly have pics of rehbar or say "inqilabi centre of parachinar" doesnt mean iran doesnt fund such projects- much ofnit is from ayt. Khamenei khums. Again, if we implement basirah here we would see that iran would be doing the right thing not to openly announce it- ud know better as a pakistani br.

4) do u really think killing would stop if iran adopted an anti sunni stance?! Rather, thiz causes other radicalisation occurring! Again if we look at it with a bit of basirah, we would understand its reasoning for implementing this policy.

5) again, look at palestine with basirah. Now, what would u think the gulf arab wahabi preachers would do if they saw iran not supporting palestine? Look at things from a wider angle. Palestinians are also oppressed and the first qibla is occupied by israel. So, iran shouldnt care about this?

These are just some reasons to explain these points brother. Moral of story- look at things from wide angle and with basirah. Because we need to be politically ready and have great insight for return of imam (aj). Basirah is something the enemies of God hate, whether it be on a non muslim or muslim. This is because it allows them to deceive muslims into fitna- hence why people decend into the traps of the ilk of y.habib.

Its like condemnig imam hassan for treaty with muawiyah. In every time, there are some things which if we look from an angle, it looks like someone is doing a bad thing. But if we look critically with basirah, there is no doubt we will see imam hassan was right

If we looked basirahlessly then we would maybe curse him, as we would compare him to imam hussain. The same goes for imam ali not fighting those who killed hazrat fatima (as).

So the answer is to always judge critically and use basirah so we dont get caught into traps enemies of islam, from "within islam" or from outside.

Ws dear br.

Edited by h_al_s
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

(salam)

 

I have never gone in Iran but my friends, my relatives and even my brother speaks about bad behavior of Iranians with Pakistanis. What is reason behind it? My brother told me that he was present at Harm of Syeda Zainab a.s and was sitting alone on a cornder covering his face and shedding tears when an Iranian (who appeared from his facial features to be iranian) came there and started pushing him away while there was no one. He kept on saying "Yala, Yala" (Run from here). My brother said he was very annoyed by this rude behavior of Iranians. He said Iranians have complete hold in the Shrine of Bibi Zainab a.s and they treat Pakistanis realy bad. Similarly, my maternal uncle who was martyred by terrorits also visited Iran and told that Iranians do not treat Pakistanis well. If you ask me i am Shia and i love every Shia in the world to whatsoever race he belongs to. But i am quite surprised to know this behavior of Iranians with Pakistanis. Is this the major reason of Iran's not concerning Shia killings in Pakistan? Pakistan is hub of Shia killing in the world after Iraq. But Iran never raised any voice ont his. Yet iran is concerned with Palestinian issue or issue of Syria but you can slaughter the whole Shia generation in Pakistan, Iran will continue its so called "harmony among muslims" policy at EVERY COST.

Shia Afghans are in the same boat my friend. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

(salam)

 

I have never gone in Iran but my friends, my relatives and even my brother speaks about bad behavior of Iranians with Pakistanis. What is reason behind it? My brother told me that he was present at Harm of Syeda Zainab a.s and was sitting alone on a cornder covering his face and shedding tears when an Iranian (who appeared from his facial features to be iranian) came there and started pushing him away while there was no one. He kept on saying "Yala, Yala" (Run from here). My brother said he was very annoyed by this rude behavior of Iranians. He said Iranians have complete hold in the Shrine of Bibi Zainab a.s and they treat Pakistanis realy bad. Similarly, my maternal uncle who was martyred by terrorits also visited Iran and told that Iranians do not treat Pakistanis well..

 

Wasalam

 

Bad treatment of Pakistanis should be viewed on two levels, and they need some explaining.

 

For one, so far as Pakistanis are viewed negatively on account of the bad perception of that country, this phenomenon is now global and this perception has also found its way into some Iranian attitudes towards Pakistanis, thanks to developments in Pakistan since the 90s, esp post 9/11 - this is about 25 years of media representations and their accumulated perceptions that Pakis face when they travel internationally, and I, having had sufficient experience, can testify to that.

 

On the other level, Iranians mistreatment of Pakistanis (or whatever exists of that phenomenon) is rooted in the interaction of the two peoples around sites of pilgrimage in Iran and confined to those parts only. So why is that?

 

More than half of Pakistanis are illiterate or semi-literate, which also means they belong to lower socioeconomic strata. Shia population of Pak is more or less distributed along the same lines, and this is reflected in the numbers of Shias who visit Iran for ziarat. Pakistan has the largest Shia population outside Iran, and travelling to Iran by road remains affordable for people with low incomes who otherwise could never set out of Pakistan. So certain Pak visitors tend to cause some issues with Iranians.

 

In my experience, two biggest Iranian complaints are: 1) Pakistanis are miserly and tend to haggle to an excessive degree (I have seen Iranian shopkeepers turn Paki customers out of shop angrily "buro buro agha"); 2), they create a lot of garbage and don't clean it afterwords. I have seen Iranian hoteliers getting worked up, sometimes in unfair and unwarranted way, treating all Pakistanis as if they are a nuisance to their business. Some simply refuse rooms. It happened with me when the guy at the counter in a Mashhad hotel saw my passport, the rooms which were available a few moments ago immediately turned out to be occupied when he checked the ledger again: "bebakhshid but no room left". Okay!

 

Now, as soon as you leave the areas surrounding the pilgrimage sites, the bad treatment disappears into thin air. I have travelled through non-pilgrimage cities like Shiraz and Isfahan and Kerman and Kermanshah etc, and even in Tehran proper and in areas of Mashhad not frequented by Pakistani visitors, I have not noticed negative views of Pakistanis. If anything, I have been treated as a king when I told them I was from Pakistan. Not that they thought anything special in my being Pakistani; Iranians just treat every foreigner as their mehmaan, and display their legendary hospitality sans reservation. I have been invited to Iranian homes for dinners after only 5 minutes of acquaintance; I have been offered a place to rest or sleep and save money after half an hour of chit chat on public transport. I know these are Iranian mannerisms and I'm not expected or supposed to accept these invitations but they inform you of the culture of generosity and hospitality found in Iranian culture, and that was after I told them my nationality.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Anyway.... generally everyone who treats you badly isn't necessarily a racist. Maybe he is just an ignorant or ill-tempered person who treats everyone badly.

 

Perhaps the incident which happened with the OP's brother in the shrine of Sayyeda Zainab can be explained in that way, because there's no clear indication in the information provided if what happened, happened because of their belonging to certain nationalities.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Over crowded areas put allot of pressure on those who have to deal with all sorts of people on daily bases. As marble said, in cities like asfahan people were very nice. Tehranis weren't nice.

Also, the visitor has to observe some courtesy to the place. Shrines and mosques are not public parks. Don't expect to eat, sleep etc there without being asked to leave in no nice way. Shrines also need to be cleaned and maintained, so the staff will ask you to move away.

Sometime a visitor will pray in wrong place or will sit in a walkway etc.

Iranians and pushing:

They push then smile as if it is a greeting...... srsly.

Iranians and bru brue:

Yah, most people will understand that word but it is very not nice.

Pakistanis :

If someone treat you badly, it is not necessary because you are Pakistani. Most won't tell who is Pakistani and who is Indian. You really need to fix this lower self steam. In hajj while we were in line waiting train we asked the desis in front of us to move to the second line because we have 3 wheel chairs and that door was for wheel chairs.

2 lines per door, that is 2 persons next to each others, we just asked them to move left , 2 steps away from where they are.

They really thought we were treating them low.... they called a staff , a desi, to tell us to move away....he asked them to move to the left line lol.

There is a sign , drawing of wheel chair on door and there are 3 wheel chairs in line with obviously 3 physically disabled people.....dose not need a math...

And it is not always related to low social economic status....

We were in madina in shopping area and we had a seat there during esha prayer. Seats were in streets . 2 desi young men who looked well dressed, nice sandals, nice phones, we're sitting on the other seat.

One of them kept spitting all the time on ground.....

He wasn't smoking nor coughing nor an old man who might chock with mucus......

I don't know why he did it, but it was repulsive and I surely want nothing to do with him, if something fell from my bag and he brought it I may not take it from his hands lol ...

But met other desis who were just fine and nice.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Pakistanis :

If someone treat you badly, it is not necessary because you are Pakistani. Most won't tell who is Pakistani and who is Indian. You really need to fix this lower self steam.

 

Yes, a bad experience may not necessarily be due to their nationality. But this mindset, which does exist among Pakistanis, has not developed in a vacuum. In a decade or so, I have travelled to 25+ countries in Europe, Middle East and Southeast Asia in a personal capacity, and I can say that it's not a very pleasant experience to be travelling with a Pak passport, esp in Arab countries, as any desi would tell you. Given unfair treatment at various levels, whether at immigration and airports or at hotels and work places, it is not surprising some have developed reactionary attitude to any unpleasant incidence they encounter while travelling.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Sis CM, Let me relate an incident which is also relevant to your post as well as the topic of the thread. This is the first hand account as I was present there.

 

A group of foreign pilgrims (majority Pakis, some Indians, handful of Arabs, and some others) were waiting for tokens for Imam Reza's (a.s) free kitchen, at the shrine complex. A little argument developed. The Iranian official said that everyone has to come in person with their passports to collect the tokens. A Paki man had brought five passports with him, three of which were of his children under 10, and he said it's very early in the morning (after fajr) and the kids were sleeping in the hotel. The Iranian man didn't like the argument and waved him away. The Pak man again respectfully requested that his kids and wife should be exempted from appearing in person and tokens for food should be issued. He also said that it's their last day in Mashhad and if they don't get it today, they'll miss the niaz/tabbaruk of the Imam's shrine, thus appealing to religious sentiment. The Iranian got angry, suddenly picked up the passports from the table, threw them on the floor, and told him to go away.

 

Now, did he do that because the man was Pakistani or because he was an ill-tempered individual who acted rudely for being pushed?

 

It could be one or the other, or it could be a mix of the two reasons. Sometimes it's hard to separate. But the reaction of Pakistanis in that group, who were majority, was extraordinary and out of proportion. A veritable bedlam was let loose. They took it as an affront to them and to their country. One of them said, "he could have slapped us but how dare he threw the passports on the floor".....One hothead was about to seize the Iranian by the collar, but was prevented.

 

So finally intermediaries were called in, some minor Pakistani scholars employed in the shrine complex, who apologised for the bad behaviour etc, and the tokens were finally issued without personal appearance of the wife and children.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Sis CM, Let me relate an incident which is also relevant to your post as well as the topic of the thread. This is the first hand account as I was present there.

 

A group of foreign pilgrims (majority Pakis, some Indians, handful of Arabs, and some others) were waiting for tokens for Imam Reza's (a.s) free kitchen, at the shrine complex. A little argument developed. The Iranian official said that everyone has to come in person with their passports to collect the tokens. A Paki man had brought five passports with him, three of which were of his children under 10, and he said it's very early in the morning (after fajr) and the kids were sleeping in the hotel. The Iranian man didn't like the argument and waved him away. The Pak man again respectfully requested that his kids and wife should be exempted from appearing in person and tokens for food should be issued. He also said that it's their last day in Mashhad and if they don't get it today, they'll miss the niaz/tabbaruk of the Imam's shrine, thus appealing to religious sentiment. The Iranian got angry, suddenly picked up the passports from the table, threw them on the floor, and told him to go away.

 

Now, did he do that because the man was Pakistani or because he was an ill-tempered individual who acted rudely for being pushed?

 

It could be one or the other, or it could be a mix of the two reasons. Sometimes it's hard to separate. But the reaction of Pakistanis in that group, who were majority, was extraordinary and out of proportion. A veritable bedlam was let loose. They took it as an affront to them and to their country. One of them said, "he could have slapped us but how dare he threw the passports on the floor".....One hothead was about to seize the Iranian by the collar, but was prevented.

 

So finally intermediaries were called in, some minor Pakistani scholars employed in the shrine complex, who apologised for the bad behaviour etc, and the tokens were finally issued without personal appearance of the wife and children.

I think the Pakistani man was doing it wrong way. He was annoyingly stubborn and won't accept a simple no. I am sure there were others with children and others with elderly and sick individuals who made it in person and those who made the effort to come in person and stand in long line have priority to the one who wants to be exempted from the law. I deal with crowds daily and many of them are seeking to be exempted from law. If I let all of them go away with it then my work will be pointless and rubbish. I know in some places in east, law is an obstacle more than a facilitator but that's not true on every eastern county. Sometimes the law is there to serve you. If you were there with your children and elderly mom who is I'l, and a man in front of you brought passports for his family and he was let go away with it then the staff told you that there is no more avail seat for you and your family, do you think that is fair?

If it is only for barakah, he can do with one loaf. He could get himself a seat then took some of the food for his family, if the food is blessed it will suffice them without a doubt. What a bless is there in a food that was taken with quarrel, embarrassing some young scholars, putting bad image on your people, making a show, making others go angry, Maki get people insult their brothers, and turning the shrine of imam into a place where brotherhood shrink.

Maybe him moving away would have been more rewadfull act than eating that food.

O ye who believe! When ye are told to make room in the assemblies, (spread out and) make room: (ample) room will Allah provide for you. And when ye are told to rise up, rise up Allah will rise up, to (suitable) ranks (and degrees), those of you who believe and who have been granted (mystic) Knowledge. And Allah is well-acquainted with all ye do

If I was the Iranian I may put the passports to side, finish all those who are present and after I finish and there was room I may let him in with his family.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

marbles we arent supposed to accept their offers? :O

 

once i was going to tehran from mashad in train and the guy who was sitting next to our seat invited us to his house.we said no for like 5 times but he kept insisting.

i was also curious to know how an average irani dude lives.so we accepted it.

He wasnt very rich.By profession he was a butcher and funniest man of sadiqiyeh.

 

to OP

Iranians treat us really good.

you might want to travel UAE,KSA or any gulf countries :D then you wont complain

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

(salam)

 

It is known (or was - since they don't do that token stuff anymore) that not everyone needs to be there to get a token. For example, one or two people could take the passports of a whole caravan if they wanted to and get the token. Used to happen all the time with ziyarat groups.

 

Anyways, racism is not some inherent trait that people are born with. It is developed through different ways, and as far as the Iranians who are "racist" towards Pakistanis, one of the reasons could be because of different perceptions. For example, at least in Qum and Mashad, the Pakistanis may not always be seen in good light by some, because there are literally hundreds of them studying in the Hawzah and spend their entire lives sitting there, living off monthly stipends and at times even the free housing that they are given and never get any where in terms of academic progress. Obviously life is much better in Iran (when compared to living in Pakistan), so many do not want to go back to Pakistan and keep extending and delaying their studies through which ever way possible. I have seen too many, students who have literally lived in Iran for years and still couldn't speak Farsi (because they had come illegally, and decided to do private duroos in Urdu for all those years), or students who have been here almost 2 decades, but still have not really gotten anywhere. There were those students, who would make sure to take it slowly as anything to complete the Farsi program (something all Pakistanis should really be able to complete in 4-5 months), but they do not even want to test out of the Alif-Ba book and would rather sit in it for a full month, because what's the hurry? This type of behaviour puts a bad impression on them - even though there are many who study really hard and are geniuses. 

 

But besides that, as many members mentioned, South Asians in general are treated pretty bad anyways - just look at how they get treated in Arab countries like Saudi. You can't even compare Arab treatment of South Asians to Iranian treatment.

 

Wassalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

One of the main reasons of such mistreatments, in my opinion, is wrong ideas some people have about other people of the world. For example, some Iranians think that Arabs hate Iranians so they begin to hate Arabs. If they know that most people from other countries (excluding deviated people), are ordinary people like themselves, they wont hate them.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

I think the Pakistani man was doing it wrong way. He was annoyingly stubborn and won't accept a simple no. I am sure there were others with children and others with elderly and sick individuals who made it in person and those who made the effort to come in person and stand in long line have priority to the one who wants to be exempted from the law. I deal with crowds daily and many of them are seeking to be exempted from law. If I let all of them go away with it then my work will be pointless and rubbish. I know in some places in east, law is an obstacle more than a facilitator but that's not true on every eastern county. Sometimes the law is there to serve you. If you were there with your children and elderly mom who is I'l, and a man in front of you brought passports for his family and he was let go away with it then the staff told you that there is no more avail seat for you and your family, do you think that is fair?

If it is only for barakah, he can do with one loaf. He could get himself a seat then took some of the food for his family, if the food is blessed it will suffice them without a doubt. What a bless is there in a food that was taken with quarrel, embarrassing some young scholars, putting bad image on your people, making a show, making others go angry, Maki get people insult their brothers, and turning the shrine of imam into a place where brotherhood shrink.

Maybe him moving away would have been more rewadfull act than eating that food.

O ye who believe! When ye are told to make room in the assemblies, (spread out and) make room: (ample) room will Allah provide for you. And when ye are told to rise up, rise up Allah will rise up, to (suitable) ranks (and degrees), those of you who believe and who have been granted (mystic) Knowledge. And Allah is well-acquainted with all ye do

If I was the Iranian I may put the passports to side, finish all those who are present and after I finish and there was room I may let him in with his family.

 

Of course, the official in charge was not required to accede to the man's demand. The man's stubborn insistence was wrong but the official's reaction was a bigger wrong. And as you said, he could have handled it tactfully but his rude gesture inflamed the situation and embarrassed everyone. Now when a situation like this comes up, it's hard to separate general anti-Pak feeling with impromptu, circumstantial quarrels. Perceptions then get involved. For those Pakis who have experienced mistreatment on other occasions, for no fault of their own, for them the official's refusal was normal but his throwing of passports on the floor was done to humiliate Pakistanis.

 

Right perception or wrong, the people who regularly get a diet of negativity from others tend to become to sensitive to every such thing.

 

(salam)

 

It is known (or was - since they don't do that token stuff anymore) that not everyone needs to be there to get a token. For example, one or two people could take the passports of a whole caravan if they wanted to and get the token. Used to happen all the time with ziyarat groups.

 

Ws,

 

It always used to be like that - one person could go with as may passports and get the tokens but they changed it for some reason and asked everyone to be present in person. The incident I have written is from 2007. I don't know how long the rule was kept but seeing the problems it caused that year, especially large crowds post-fajr time vying over each other for tokens, the authorities must have felt compelled to repeal the rule of personal appearance.

Edited by Marbles
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

How would a black person be treated in Pakistan?

With dumb fascination.

marbles we arent supposed to accept their offers? :O

 

once i was going to tehran from mashad in train and the guy who was sitting next to our seat invited us to his house.we said no for like 5 times but he kept insisting.

i was also curious to know how an average irani dude lives.so we accepted it.

He wasnt very rich.By profession he was a butcher and funniest man of sadiqiyeh.

 

to OP

Iranians treat us really good.

you might want to travel UAE,KSA or any gulf countries :D then you wont complain

Lol no generally it's just politeness. You are expected not to accept the invite but seeing how your Iranian travel companion insisted perhaps he really wanted you to come to his place. So I guess it was all right.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Wsalam,

I disliked the jumping in the ques and pushing and shoving in the zariaht. I didnt like Qim,Isafahan was really nice and so was mashad. They just ask for more money when they hear you speaking in arabic,lol,its good to speak in their lauguage or have someone that does.

Their is annoying racist people in every place. I dont think that the iraiani man had the right to throw the passports on the floor,regradless of how stubborn or insisting that man was,it's highly unprofessional and disrespectful. When your delying with customers you should always remain claim,it's tough but it's part of the job.

Marbles where did you sleep,when they told you they had no rooms left?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Bismillah

 

Brothers and sisters,

 

Only one point: please be careful and cautious in using the plural form in your posts. Many of the brothers and sisters wrote in their posts "IRANIANS mistreat Pakistanis", with the plural "s" at the end, which implies that all Iranians are like that.

 

According to the fatwas of all marja's it is haraam to backbite (do ghibah of) the people of a village, a city, a country, or a race or group of people in an inclusive way, because it includes those who are not actually included in that issue. The accurate way is to say "some of" the people of such city or country are so and so.

 

As an Iranian, I have a number of Pakistani friends living in Iran and they have never told me anything about the bad treatments of the Iranians with them.

 

Peace

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Salaam bro Aabiss Shakari:

 

I will not claim to be an expert on the situation but I will give my two cents nonetheless, as someone who is an Iranian while not being completely entrenched in the whole "Iranian mindset."

 

Firstly, from the stories you have described, it does not NECESSARILY indicate racism or prejudice. That MAY be the case, but it may not. It doesn't even seem like the people involved even knew that your relatives were from Pakistan, let alone acting this way toward them specifically for their Pakistaniness. This is the first point.

 

The second point is this: Because of Iran's political stance in the international stage in the last 35 years, a lot of Shias throughout the world have developed a certain idealized image of Iran as a country and society. This image, obviously, is not necessarily true, and people who have such unrealistic expectations, tend to become disillusioned when they eventually visit Iran.

 

Now that these points are out of the way, let us address the question of this thread (which is, ultimately, the same question as the thread "Afghans in Iran," but in reference to Pakistanis rather than Afghans): are Iranians racist?

 

Well, yes and no.

 

Iranians are racist. All people are. But are Iranians any more racist than any other group of people? I don't think so. And I will explain my reasoning here.

 

We have to first assess the Iranian people, their culture, and their behaviors.

 

The Iranian nation includes many languages and ethnicities. And yet, relative to other countries in West, Central, and South Asia, Iran is fairly stable and united. IMO this would not have been the case if the monarchy had remained in power. But that's a separate discussion. I think the relationship between the various ethnic and language groups of Iran can tell us a lot about Iranian society.

 

Let me give you an example from my own experience. I went to see a footie match between Esteghlal Tehran and Teraktorsazi Tabriz in Azadi stadium (in Tehran). Around 20-30 thousand Tabrizi fans traveled to watch this game. Out of the 100 thousand people at Azadi stadium, I would say 25 thousand were Tabrizis, 65 thousand were Esteghlalis, and the remaining 10 thousand were cops. There were cops in full riot gear for miles and miles leading to the stadium, there were cops separating the Tabrizis and Esteghlalis (using the traditional method of leaving entire sections of the stadium empty to use them as barricades).

 

You think that display of force was overkill?

 

You won't after you read what happened. The Tabrizi fans had gotten a hold of rocks, somehow, and were throwing them both on the pitch and at the police and Esteghlali fans. The Esteghlalis responded with a racist chant of: "eshak! eshak! eshak!"

 

Why is it racist? "Eshak" is Azeri for "donkey." Calling someone donkey is synonymous to calling someone stupid. The racist stereotype about Azeris (or Turks as they are called in Iran), is that they are dumb. (That's why I mentioned the chant as being racist.)

 

This is no exception. This is how Iranians are. Make no mistake about it. They act in the most uncultured, unacceptable manner possible without completely descending into a cycle of bloodshed. This is Iran's distinction. There is no ethnic strife, nor is there a culture of "political correctness" and enforced tolerance of ethnic differences. Instead, there is a constant back-and-forth of chants and slogans and non-bloody violence.

 

Brother repenter mentioned this in the other thread and I thought it was a very good point. This has reached the point where there had to be a fatwa against jokes that target specific ethnic groups. Why? Because these are the ONLY type of joke in Iran. Casual racism towards fellow Iranians is deeply embedded in our culture. Couple this with the anger and lack of akhlaq of our people, and this is the outcome. In light of this, I don't think non-Iranians should be all that surprised if they deal with prejudice in Iran.

 

Having said that, there are a 1001 different perspectives. And these perspectives are made of two parts: one is the person's pre-existing mindset, and the other is the person's experiences. There are plenty of Afghans who lived many years in Iran and consider it their own country. I have met such Afghans. There are also many Pakistanis (and other nationalities) who study in Iran and found the experience to be highly beneficial.

 

So to summarize:

 

- Don't take one perspective to be absolute, regardless of what that perspective is

- Don't expect Iranians to be great just because Imam Khomeini was great and because Rahbar is great

 

Sorry for being long-winded.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Forum Administrators

If Iranians do look down upon Pakistanis, I find it hard to criticise.

 

I think it is pretty fair to generalise that Iranians are fastidious about cleanliness. Regardless of sanctions, poverty or whatever, they are very very clean.

 

On the other hand I think it would be quite fair to describe Pakistan as an overflowing toilet and clearly that state of affairs has come to pass because of the behaviour of Pakistanis.

 

Now Pakistanis may regard the ability to create a mess wherever they go as an essential human right, but they should not complain when very clean people take umbrage.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Racism is never a simple topic. It exists everywhere and among all people for many reasons. Fear is a big reason. People fear what they don't understand and what they think may potentially hurt them in some way or another.


If Iranians do look down upon Pakistanis, I find it hard to criticise.

 

I think it is pretty fair to generalise that Iranians are fastidious about cleanliness. Regardless of sanctions, poverty or whatever, they are very very clean.

 

On the other hand I think it would be quite fair to describe Pakistan as an overflowing toilet and clearly that state of affairs has come to pass because of the behaviour of Pakistanis.

 

Now Pakistanis may regard the ability to create a mess wherever they go as an essential human right, but they should not complain when very clean people take umbrage.

 

Justification for racism?  Apologetics? Not sure what you mean.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

 

 

This is no exception. This is how Iranians are. Make no mistake about it. They act in the most uncultured, unacceptable manner possible without completely descending into a cycle of bloodshed. This is Iran's distinction. There is no ethnic strife, nor is there a culture of "political correctness" and enforced tolerance of ethnic differences. Instead, there is a constant back-and-forth of chants and slogans and non-bloody violence.

 

 

This is so insightful and accurate. You put in words what I've long thought but didn't know how to express.

 

This explains the dilemma a lot of non-Iranian Muslims have in America or other places they encounter Iranians: they respect Iran on a macro-level (the country, the culture, the history, the regime in some cases), but on the micro-level with individual day-to-day dealings they don't like Iranians and find them unpleasant. Actually most Iranians feel the same way!

 

And that's because of what you describe. It's a nation of passive-aggressive tension. Unlike its neighbors Iran doesn't break out into violent genocidal ethnic strife every once in a while. But instead every day interactions are filled with insulting language, casual racism, rudeness, being overly competitive, back-talking, gossip, elitism, snobbiness etc.  Arabs Turks, and other Middle Easterners are much more pleasant company on the individual level because they are are cordial and warm but then have massive bloodshed / sectarian warfare every few years to let it all out.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

If Iranians do look down upon Pakistanis, I find it hard to criticise.

 

I think it is pretty fair to generalise that Iranians are fastidious about cleanliness. Regardless of sanctions, poverty or whatever, they are very very clean.

 

On the other hand I think it would be quite fair to describe Pakistan as an overflowing toilet and clearly that state of affairs has come to pass because of the behaviour of Pakistanis.

 

Now Pakistanis may regard the ability to create a mess wherever they go as an essential human right, but they should not complain when very clean people take umbrage.

 

That is a bit harsh, especially with respect to the shia population in Pakistan.

Link to post
Share on other sites

That is a bit harsh, especially with respect to the shia population in Pakistan.

 

Without commenting on what brother Hajji said, you have to remember that there is a difference between nijasat and being clean. Shias can be free of nijasat, but still be unclean.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
On the other hand I think it would be quite fair to describe Pakistan as an overflowing toilet and clearly that state of affairs has come to pass because of the behaviour of Pakistanis.

 

I have touched on this issue earlier in the thread, and the manner in which I have raised it is enough to get the point across. It is indeed fair to say that all desis (not just Pakistanis) do have a problem with keeping their surroundings clean; you can compare public places in both countries to get an idea. But the problem arises when actions of certain type of people are extrapolated on the whole group, so that a prejudice is developed, and gradually cemented, and henceforth everyone is looked at with the same lens. This is why what is said is as equally important as how it is said.

 

Giving a whole country an epithet like 'overflowing toilet' contributes to prejudicial perceptions which, left uncontested, ultimately lead to more nasty and entrenched set of views. Which is precisely what was at work when I was refused a room in Mashhad; it was not because the guy knew me or had previous experience with me; it was the consequence of a perception which your post contributes to.

 

Poetic exaggeration in our drawing room among friends may be permitted but it tends to cause problems of representation when done in a serious discourse. We object to this kind of characterisation of the 'Orient' by the West; and this is where I believe we should take a little care: we should also object to and refrain from succumbing to the pleasures of similar characterisaiton.

 

Doesn't matter if it is considered self-criticism; it is still problematic.

Edited by Marbles
Link to post
Share on other sites

What is reason behind it? My brother told me that he was present at Harm of Syeda Zainab a.s and was sitting alone on a cornder covering his face and shedding tears when an Iranian (who appeared from his facial features to be iranian) came there and started pushing him away while there was no one. He kept on saying "Yala, Yala" (Run from here). My brother said he was very annoyed by this rude behavior of Iranians. 

Yalla Yalla is something used by Arabs precisely Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, and Jordan, but mostly by Lebanese and Syrians. Not Persian.

Yalla can mean alooooot of things, depends how it was put in context. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Forum Administrators

Giving a whole country an epithet like 'overflowing toilet' contributes to prejudicial perceptions which, left uncontested, ultimately lead to more nasty and entrenched set of views. Which is precisely what was at work when I was refused a room in Mashhad; it was not because the guy knew me or had previous experience with me; it was the consequence of a perception which your post contributes to.

 

There are two classes of Pakistanis. Those who are rich enough to insulate themselves from the smell of the overflowing toilet and those who can't. I belong to the latter group and having lived through the stench, that I can still remember the smell in leafy north London, 6 years after my last visit, I think it's reasonable for me to describe it that way.

 

I understand your pain when travelling abroad, but that just goes to show that while rich Pakistanis can ignore the problems at home to some extent, they are not completely immune from them. And the only way would be for the financial and intellectual elites to provide some form of leadership.

 

Such leadership, itself, would have to be in the form of the self-discipline that is needed to vote for more taxes on the rich themselves, that would help to pay for the cleaning up that is so badly needed.

Edited by Haji 2003
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

 

 

Such leadership, itself, would have to be in the form of the self-discipline that is needed to vote for more taxes on the rich themselves, that would help to pay for the cleaning up that is so badly needed.

 

Why would the rich vote for more taxes on themselves, when they can always escape to elsewhere if the stench gets too bad? Besides, while they are also not completely insulated, reality it is more like a leak here and there - for the most part they live in a completely different world. Much of the violence is localized in poor areas of the country/cities, the worst garbage is also in the poor areas, the worst traffic and the rotten public transportation system is taken by the working class, same with education, health care and whatever else one can think off. If one looks at the cost benefit of paying taxes versus not, on the balance - not paying taxes, and remaining super wealthy is more materially beneficial for the rich. 

Edited by skylight2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

There are two classes of Pakistanis. Those who are rich enough to insulate themselves from the smell of the overflowing toilet and those who can't. I belong to the latter group and having lived through the stench, that I can still remember the smell in leafy north London, 6 years after my last visit, I think it's reasonable for me to describe it that way.

 

I understand your pain when travelling abroad, but that just goes to show that while rich Pakistanis can ignore the problems at home to some extent, they are not completely immune from them. And the only way would be for the financial and intellectual elites to provide some form of leadership.

 

Such leadership, itself, would have to be in the form of the self-discipline that is needed to vote for more taxes on the rich themselves, that would help to pay for the cleaning up that is so badly needed.

I would treat the problem of broken/non-existent sewage system in less well-off neighbourhoods caused by a callous administration separately. People there cry day and night but no one listens unless they use some influence with the authorities and get them to fix a blown up sewage line. But honesty, people of certain background, not just the paindus, but less educated, uncultured people from anywhere in the world when they visit better kept countries tend to generate a lot of anxiety due to their habits. Given the sort and number of Pakis who visit Iran, I'm not surprised Iranians complain. I find it interesting that some Pakis make similar complaints about more destitute and more mess-making Afghans in Karachi and other cities.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...