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coolguyjoe

Imamat In The Quran

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Assalam Alaykum

 

a Few things

 

 

firstly, why does Allah never explicitely talk in the Quran about the wilayat of Imam Ali (as)? It's always implied or hidden in verses with different percieved meanings. Why did Allah never reveal a verse which straight up said "Ali is the next Imam"?

 

Second, In Surah Azhab Aya 33, Allah speaks of the Ahlulbayt at the end of the Aya. In the ayat, Allah was talking about the Wives of the prophet. He also said he WANTS to purify the ahlulbayt through an extensive purification. Can't I say that this Aya proves that the ahlul bayt is the wives of the prophet? We say the AhlulBayt are Masoom, why would Allah want to purify them if they're already clean? Why wouldn't Allah say this (we wish to purify you) outside of the aya which already talks about the wife?Why does he suddenly change the topic of th Aya and speak about the Ahlul Bayt?

 

It seems a bit like we shia stretch the ayas of the Quran to fit our own purposes regarding the Ahlul Bayt

 

 

If you wish to answer, answer only with the Quran please, please refrain from using hadith in your replies. NONE! I only want quranic answers.

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Bismillah.

 

Salaam.

 

Regarding your first question please refer to these two links:

 

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/en2039

 

http://www.al-islam.org/shiism-imamate-and-wilayat-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/appointment-ali-explicit-or-implicit

 

And regarding your first question please refer to these two links:

 

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa898

 

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa2229

 

With Duas.

 

Narsis.

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If Quran can be specific enough to mention Zaid, it could of mentioned Ali. 

 

Bismillah.

 

Salaam.

 

The Qur'an also mentions Satan, pharaoh, korah, Samiri and ..., does it mean that they are good? It did not mention many many prophets, does it mean they were not such respectful to be mentioned in the Qur'an? The Qur'an is a wise Kalaam descended by a Wise Lord; Regarding Imam Ali we have many verses that according to Sunni and Shia narrations and according to the witness of history, there was only just instance for that verse and that is Imam Ali (p); this is Allah's wisdom and delicate choice accordingly the Qur'an kept free from being falcificated by enemies of Ahl al-Bait (p) and at the same time through this strategy Imam Ali (p) and Ahl al-Bait (p) are mentioned in the Qur'an as the best people.

 

With Duas.

 

Narsis.

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Logical fallacy.

The link provided by Narsis said the Quran talks in general terms but not specific terms. But we see it also talks specifically (in the case of Zaid, it did and even mentioned his name).  So the claim the Quran only talks in general terms is baseless. It can talk in specific terms as well. If it can talk about Zaid specifically, and mention his name, it could do so with Ali. Otherwise the Quran doesn't point to Ali directly but it's hadiths that to do, and that make verses of Quran point to Ali.

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The link provided by Narsis said the Quran talks in general terms but not specific terms. But we see it also talks specifically (in the case of Zaid, it did and even mentioned his name).  So the claim the Quran only talks in general terms is baseless. It can talk in specific terms as well. If it can talk about Zaid specifically, and mention his name, it could do so with Ali. Otherwise the Quran doesn't point to Ali directly but it's hadiths that to do, and that make verses of Quran point to Ali.

Read the first verses of surat fussilat.

كتاب فصلت آياته ثم أحزمة من لدن خبير عليم

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Bismillah.

 

Salaam.

 

The Qur'an also mentions Satan, pharaoh, korah, Samiri and ..., does it mean that they are good? It did not mention many many prophets, does it mean they were not such respectful to be mentioned in the Qur'an? The Qur'an is a wise Kalaam descended by a Wise Lord; Regarding Imam Ali we have many verses that according to Sunni and Shia narrations and according to the witness of history, there was only just instance for that verse and that is Imam Ali (p); this is Allah's wisdom and delicate choice accordingly the Qur'an kept free from being falcificated by enemies of Ahl al-Bait (p) and at the same time through this strategy Imam Ali (p) and Ahl al-Bait (p) are mentioned in the Qur'an as the best people.

 

With Duas.

 

Narsis.

 

In the case Mohammad, you had Isa mentioning a Prophet would come. In the case of Ali, if he is to be followed by all of humanity than he needs to be known. Prophets don't have to be all mentioned by name, because their task is over. Humanity is not required to follow a religion other then the one brought by Mohammad per teachings of Islam. If Imam Ali is to be followed, then it's not unreasonable that people expect him to be mentioned clearly in the Quran. 5:55 doesn't have a Sahih chain connecting to a companion that it is about Imam Ali. Ayat Tatheer can be said to be revealed regarding ahlul-kisa but still comprehensive in meaning to other members. Verse 42:23 can be said to be about closeness to God. And Ulil-Amr could be the people of authority under Mohammad's authority, in which later verse in the same Surah, suggests it was so, that they were to be referred to in matters of fear and safety. It can be said when they start commanding things outside their position or to disobey God, they lose their authority. All in all, Quran was not enough, and ghadeer declaration was needed for Wilayah of Ali and Ahlebayt. But with both Mawla and Ahlebayt having different meanings possible, this wasn't clear as well.

 

People say this is a test to humanity, but then Islam ceases to be a case of guidance, and Imammate becomes more of a test, then a guidance.

Read the first verses of surat fussilat.

كتاب فصلت آياته ثم أحزمة من لدن خبير عليم

You will have to clarify what you mean and the point you are trying to make.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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In the case Mohammad, you had Isa mentioning a Prophet would come. In the case of Ali, if he is to be followed by all of humanity than he needs to be known. Prophets don't have to be all mentioned by name, because their task is over. Humanity is not required to follow a religion other then the one brought by Mohammad per teachings of Islam. If Imam Ali is to be followed, then it's not unreasonable that people expect him to be mentioned clearly in the Quran. 5:55 doesn't have a Sahih chain connecting to a companion that it is about Imam Ali. Ayat Tatheer can be said to be revealed regarding ahlul-kisa but still comprehensive in meaning to other members. Verse 42:23 can be said to be about closeness to God. And Ulil-Amr could be the people of authority under Mohammad's authority, in which later verse in the same Surah, suggests it was so, that they were to be referred to in matters of fear and safety. It can be said when they start commanding things outside their position or to disobey God, they lose their authority. All in all, Quran was not enough, and ghadeer declaration was needed for Wilayah of Ali and Ahlebayt. But with both Mawla and Ahlebayt having different meanings possible, this wasn't clear as well.

 

People say this is a test to humanity, but then Islam ceases to be a case of guidance, and Imammate becomes more of a test, then a guidance.

 

It is not about people's expectayion because maybe they expect something that is not according to their benefit during the time; it is about Allah's wisdom how to say something. What about 24:19?

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It is not about people's expectayion because maybe they expect something that is not according to their benefit during the time; it is about Allah's wisdom how to say something. What about 24:19?

People can always play that God's wisdom is higher then people's wisdom but to be honest, if it was mentioned clearly in Quran and there was enough of a community that believed in the Quran and wanted to safeguard it, there would be no division about this issue, and there would be guidance. If the role of the Quran is to guide to the true religion, and part of the true religion is following the 12 Imams, it could be easily argued it should have.

 

The fact that every proof of Imammate in Quran is debatable and is unclear to the masses, makes a case of causing confusion, rather then guiding regarding the matter. 

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The fact that every proof of Imammate in Quran is debatable and is unclear to the masses, makes a case of causing confusion, rather then guiding regarding the matter. 

 

They are debatable, but not unclear. We can critisize everything even God, but it does not mean that He is not perfect. The important issue is to catch the real message of the Qur'an through the Qur'an itself and narrations.

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They are debatable, but not unclear.

 

They are unclear bro, if they were clear, there would be no sunni-shia dispute. The Imami interpretations are just one of the many plausible interpretations. This makes Imammate part of the mutashibiha of Quran for majority of Muslims, and they can't be blamed for not following them and sticking to the muhkamat.

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They are unclear bro, if they were clear, there would be no sunni-shia dispute. The Imami interpretations are just one of the many plausible interpretations. This makes Imammate part of the mutashibiha of Quran for majority of Muslims, and they can't be blamed for not following them and sticking to the muhkamat.

 

This is the nature of "words" that can be interpreted differently, but we have to verify every speech by its instruments; if our only source was the Qur'an, your objections could be considered but we have narrations as the interpretation of the Qur'an; through narrations, from both Shia and Sunni, and also intellectual reasoning we reach to the conclusion that Imamate is the necessary part of the Islam.

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You will have to clarify what you mean and the point you are trying to make.

On field of the sciences of Quran is muhkam (not open to interpretations) verses and mutashabeh verses ( verses that looks alike but could mean different things )

The golden rule is not to take an isolated verse and build upon it your conclusions without considering other cases in Quran , specially the ones that are certain and muhkam.

It is the golden rule even in hadith. When we are faced with hadith that is unclear or could have many meanings, we should related to clear hadiths . We should not attempt to bring meaning to that hadith based on our philosophy or deficient understanding of religion.

The mutashabeh verses and hadiths serve many functions but one important function of them is that they serve as a test. Weak hearts and weak minds will love to resort to imaginations, philosophies and innovated ideas to explain these hadiths then to fill the gap they created by abandoning the meanings that are carried in muhkam hadiths.

While believers will resort to the golden rule.

So in a way, many people will claim that they follow the religion. If they are tested many will be happy to make up their own philosophies and follow them, many like to take a verse or isolated hadith and build up upon them wrong conclusion while ignoring a mesh and network of hadiths and verses that when put together they will lead us without the need to fill the gaps with rubbish.

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Salaam to all brother.

This question is not a new question.

1. But we can ask them another q:

Whay quran didnot mentioned the name of abu bakr and other caliphate? If the quran is the book of guidence it must name abubakr!!!

Because our brothers from ahl alsonna belief that who ever dont believe in abubakr he is kafir! (تفسير القرطبي - ج 8 - ص 146

2. Allah says in quran that quran itself is not sufficient for guidence and it needs the interpretation of the prophet. Allah says:

:

وَأَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الذِّكْرَ لِتُبَيِّنَ.

سوره نحل - آيه 44

مَا آَتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانْتَهُوا

سوره حشر - آيه 7ت:

أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ

فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ

And many other verses says:also you have to refer to the prophet pbuh.

3. The last but not the least point is : one of the claim that quran has is: this book cannot be Alternatable. It another word no quran is in a way that no one alternate it.

One of the politicy quran has is that it doesnt mention name of imam ali pbuh. Because if he name Him, they try to change or hide quan as it happened to other book like old and new testement.

Or like whate they did to the verse of mouta(temperary marrige).

Allah says

:فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُمْ بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآَتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً

But omar forbids this verse!

Finaly i excuse from my brother and sisters because of mistakes in typing . I type it with my cellphone hardly!!!

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Hmm, i think in Quran the only clarity about a person being made imam is about Ibrahim in Surah al-Baqarah. Will have to check later to confirm.

Bismillah.

 

Salaam.

 

The Qur'an also mentions Satan, pharaoh, korah, Samiri and ..., does it mean that they are good? It did not mention many many prophets, does it mean they were not such respectful to be mentioned in the Qur'an? ]

You forgot- the Quran also mentions jews. Cant talk about the mention of bad people in Quran without mentioning this lot now can we?

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The link provided by Narsis said the Quran talks in general terms but not specific terms. But we see it also talks specifically (in the case of Zaid, it did and even mentioned his name).  So the claim the Quran only talks in general terms is baseless. It can talk in specific terms as well. If it can talk about Zaid specifically, and mention his name, it could do so with Ali. Otherwise the Quran doesn't point to Ali directly but it's hadiths that to do, and that make verses of Quran point to Ali.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29

 

Now your just speaking conjecture. On what basis must Allah mention anything? You havnt addressed the FACT that your argument is a logical fallacy. It is invalid as an argument. The fact that there are Shia's who follow 12 divinely chosen imams (even if they are not mentioned explicitly), also proves your argument to be void. One huge error everyone seems to be making is that the Quran is not a literal book, and I have yet to be proved wrong on this. Therefore, the sheer possibility (from a rational unbiased sense) that the verses can mention the 12 imams, not by name, but by meaning, description, events of specific verses, invalidates any baseless, preconceived claim regarding the non existence of imamate. This is where one must challenge the basis of the fundamental beliefs of each school of thought and see how consistent to Quran and Hadith does these beliefs fall under.

 

Ex. Shia Islam believes only God must/can appoint His leaders -> Evidence Quran is clear on this and such a point is proved.

Edited by PureEthics

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On field of the sciences of Quran is muhkam (not open to interpretations) verses and mutashabeh verses ( verses that looks alike but could mean different things )

The golden rule is not to take an isolated verse and build upon it your conclusions without considering other cases in Quran , specially the ones that are certain and muhkam.

It is the golden rule even in hadith. When we are faced with hadith that is unclear or could have many meanings, we should related to clear hadiths . We should not attempt to bring meaning to that hadith based on our philosophy or deficient understanding of religion.

The mutashabeh verses and hadiths serve many functions but one important function of them is that they serve as a test. Weak hearts and weak minds will love to resort to imaginations, philosophies and innovated ideas to explain these hadiths then to fill the gap they created by abandoning the meanings that are carried in muhkam hadiths.

While believers will resort to the golden rule.

So in a way, many people will claim that they follow the religion. If they are tested many will be happy to make up their own philosophies and follow them, many like to take a verse or isolated hadith and build up upon them wrong conclusion while ignoring a mesh and network of hadiths and verses that when put together they will lead us without the need to fill the gaps with rubbish.

 

The thing is the hadiths are also mutashibiha as far as the agreed upon ones go. Sure there are some narrations which are muhkam with regards to succession, but as far, as proof of Ahlebayt with regards to the agreed upon narration, they are also mutashiba. But even if it wasn't and there were some Sahih hadiths that clearly show Imammate that are agreed upon, all it would show would the Sunni hadiths are inconsistent and have Shiism in it. As the Sunni hadiths also having Sunnism in it (Abu Baker being the best, etc), we can't say Sunni hadiths prove Imammate but they rather show two conflicting views regarding it and are not consistent. This would not be a proof of Imammate as it could be easily be that Sunni hadiths were influenced by Shiism. The fact is the agreed upon authentic book (Quran) doesn't clarify the issue. Therefore you have division and confusion. This makes Islam more of a confusion and a test, then a guidance.

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Book was not dropped shipped to Arabs by its Author. Book was revealed in the time of approximately  23 Years, Teacher came with it, to explain.(Fact conveniently ignored).

 

Book it self said that whatever the teacher says is also from the Author of the book (which was to be presented as a Miracle). Meaning what ever he says is as important and has the same source as the book.

 

Teacher already knew the issue, said follow the Book and this particular group, for true meaning or truth about my explanation/Teachings.

 

No more excuses left.

 

Political Islam would scrub tradition/history books to ensure their doctrine is not impacted, if anything did come out. Smear campaign or some other tactic would be employed to water it down.(You do know that  Governments /Political People in power can do this- (They were always in power, how can Shia have a great influence on there books?).

 

But there is enough material there for the one seeking the True Guidance. 

 

Saying, Division and Confusion are great way to avoid responsibility. Atheist use this argument against God. 

 

Truth is clear as daylight, for the one who sincerely seek it.

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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This is the nature of "words" that can be interpreted differently, but we have to verify every speech by its instruments; if our only source was the Qur'an, your objections could be considered but we have narrations as the interpretation of the Qur'an; through narrations, from both Shia and Sunni, and also intellectual reasoning we reach to the conclusion that Imamate is the necessary part of the Islam.

 

When you say "we reach the conclusion that Imamate is the necessary part of Islam", you mean Shias, right...because Sunnis have same Quran and have their hadiths, and don't come to the conclusion of Imamate. 

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[Qur'an 2:30] Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

 

[ Qur'an 2:124] And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers

 

*****

That would be your job as an outsider to consider both sides and do your independent and unbiased investigation to reach the Truth.


  1. Can an fallible be the successor of the infallible.

  2. People who were just worshiping idols be left to govern and safeguard the Religion that Prophets from Adam till the Last Prophet Muhammad(pbuh ahp) struggled to complete?

  3. Did the Prophet Muhammad(pbuhahp) announce a successor?

  4. If not Did he at least gave a framework to elect one?

  5. First was appointed by elite class, without consultation with the most learned and knowledgeable person not consulted?

  6. First used which method to appoint the second, was he wiser than the man who brought the Religion?

  7. Second, did not trust the general Shura, ( appointed six hand picked people to a selection committee)?

  8. Second did not think it was wise to have a general election/shura, did not trust the general public enough, but Prophet left it for them to choose?

Qualities of the successor were clearly and explicitly detailed in the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh ahp) ensured that people understood it.


If Imam Ali(as) name was explicitly written, It had to be with his genealogy, otherwise people might say it was a different Ali. Even if it was explicitly written, what happens after him? how would he appoint the next ? (If people did not listen to the Prophet of Allah(swt), why would they listen to Imam Ali, announcing his successor, so 12 names needed to be explicitly written down. ?

 

God might as well, arrange for daily email as to how you need to spend the day. "Intellect" needs to be returned back to HIM.

 

 

A thinking and logical mind needs to engage and not make excuses, when the Truth is staring at him like clear daylight.

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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"Indeed Allah chose Adam and Noah, and the progeny of Abraham and the progeny of Imran above all the nations;" [`Al Imran 33]

 

Abu Taleb is a kunya.  His real name is Imran.  This verse said his progeny is above all nations.  Pretty straightforward....

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"Indeed Allah chose Adam and Noah, and the progeny of Abraham and the progeny of Imran above all the nations;" [`Al Imran 33]

 

Abu Taleb is a kunya.  His real name is Imran.  This verse said his progeny is above all nations.  Pretty straightforward....

 

Can you prove that this verse was revealed about Abu Talib and his decendants? 

 

Did any of the Imam's use this verse to prove their status? 

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Did any of the Imam's use this verse to prove their status?

The imams A.S do not have to use verses to prove their status or prove that the verse is implying their status. Their main explicit proof is Muhammad A.S. Whose word is divine inspiration. The point is there must be evidence pertaining that verse is implied to mean or include the Ahlulbayt.

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Can you prove that this verse was revealed about Abu Talib and his decendants? 

 

Did any of the Imam's use this verse to prove their status? 

No, I can't prove it.  You can't exactly prove anything in Islam because of contradictory narrations so I don't think it matters.  It is just evidence from the Ku'ran.

 

And I don't know.  Maybe they did.  Maybe they didn't.  I didn't live with them every moment of their lives.

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"Indeed Allah chose Adam and Noah, and the progeny of Abraham and the progeny of Imran above all the nations;" [`Al Imran 33]

Abu Taleb is a kunya. His real name is Imran. This verse said his progeny is above all nations. Pretty straightforward....

Imran is the name of Abu Taleb, but is there evidence that the Imran in this verse is addressing him and not the prophet Imran ?

Also, Abu Taleb, his brother and father of the prophet; Abdullah Ibn Abd Al-Mutalib are already direct descendants from Ibrahim, so when Allah addresses Ibrahim and his progeny, it would indirectly apply to them as well. It would not make sense if the Ayah is stating that Allah has chosen both, the progeny of Ibrahim and his descendants(if we are implying that Imran in the context of this Ayah is Abu Taleb), since they would be the same progeny that are being addressed either way.

It's like me saying, I choose the progeny of person X and person Y to possess a honourable and noble lineage. Assuming that person Y is the great great great grandson of person X it wouldn't make sense to address both person X and Y, as both share the same lineage already. In other words, when I address person X by stating to him that his family lineage possesses a Noble title, this would automatically also be indirectly addressed to person X for being in his family tree. Hence, it would be redundant to address person Y separately. Like wise for this Noble Ayah.

Edited by Al-Najashi

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The imams A.S do not have to use verses to prove their status or prove that the verse is implying their status. Their main explicit proof is Muhammad A.S. Whose word is divine inspiration. The point is there must be evidence pertaining that verse is implied to mean or include the Ahlulbayt.

 

 

Isn't that what I had asked?  :wacko:

 

You can't just assume the verse is referring to them without any valid evidence.. 

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Imran is the name of Abu Taleb, but is there evidence that the Imran in this verse is addressing him and not the prophet Imran ?

Also, Abu Taleb, his brother and father of the prophet; Abdullah Ibn Abd Al-Mutalib are already direct descendants from Ibrahim, so when Allah addresses Ibrahim and his progeny, it would indirectly apply to them as well. It would not make sense if the Ayah is stating that Allah has chosen both, the progeny of Ibrahim and his descendants(if we are implying that Imran in the context of this Ayah is Abu Taleb), since they would be the same progeny that are being addressed either way.

It's like me saying, I choose the progeny of person X and person Y to possess a honourable and noble lineage. Assuming that person Y is the great great great grandson of person X it wouldn't make sense to address both person X and Y, as both share the same lineage already. In other words, when I address person X by stating to him that his family lineage possesses a Noble title, this would automatically also be indirectly addressed to person X for being in his family tree.

The only other 2 people that are considered to be Imran are the father of Moses and the father of Mary.  Both of them are ALSO in the progeny of Abraham.  So what's the problem with those?   :donno:

 

"And We have vested (the knowledge and authority of) everything in the mubin Imam." (Ya Seen 12)

 

(PS, I like your text below all of your posts)

Edited by El-Ketab

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Isn't that what I had asked? :wacko:

You can't just assume the verse is referring to them without any valid evidence..

You were implying the imams had to have mentioned that a verse is referring to them. Which is not the case. There can be verses that were revealed because of them or imply their characteristics and so forth but they never used it to imply that it was for them. Edited by PureEthics

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Assalam Alaykum

 

a Few things

firstly, why does Allah never explicitely talk in the Quran about the wilayat of Imam Ali (as)? It's always implied or hidden in verses with different percieved meanings. Why did Allah never reveal a verse which straight up said "Ali is the next Imam"?

Second, In Surah Azhab Aya 33, Allah speaks of the Ahlulbayt at the end of the Aya. In the ayat, Allah was talking about the Wives of the prophet. He also said he WANTS to purify the ahlulbayt through an extensive purification. Can't I say that this Aya proves that the ahlul bayt is the wives of the prophet? We say the AhlulBayt are Masoom, why would Allah want to purify them if they're already clean? Why wouldn't Allah say this (we wish to purify you) outside of the aya which already talks about the wife?Why does he suddenly change the topic of th Aya and speak about the Ahlul Bayt?

It seems a bit like we shia stretch the ayas of the Quran to fit our own purposes regarding the Ahlul Bayt

If you wish to answer, answer only with the Quran please, please refrain from using hadith in your replies. NONE! I only want quranic answers.

 

 

You are looking for evidence only from the Qur’an. Qur’an was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad(pbuhahp) over 23 years.

Prophet Muhammad (pbuhahp) explained the reason and meaning of the revelation.

Allah(swt) said that the Prophet does not speak out of his own desire (Quran 53: 3-5).

Prophet Muhammad (pbuhahp) said to follow the Quran and the Ahlul Bayht(as).

 

Imam Sadiq (a.s.) was asked why the imams haven’t been named in the Quran. He answered that concerning wilayah (religious authorithy), the Quran has acted the same way that it has regarding salat, zakat, and hajj.

 

Let’s go to the first event,

 

[ Qur’an 2:30] Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not.

*****

[Shakir 2:31] And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right.

[Pickthal 2:31] And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful.

[Yusufali 2:31] And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right."

*****

[2:32] They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise.

[2:33] He said: O Adam! Inform them of their names, and when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not tell you that I know the secret of the heavens and the earth? And I know that which ye disclose and which ye hide.

[2:34] And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.

 

For verse 31 I included three English translations. (Read the entire tafsir on at http://quran.al-islam.org/ and www.almizan.org, also see Sunni Tafsir and try to make sense for yourself)

 

If the answer to the Angels concerns about “one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?”

 

  1. Names of all things, or potential of in Humans to do what we will do with progress in science and travel to other worlds.

  2. Conscious beings of a superior-most status, (alin), for whose manifestation in the arc of ascent, Adam was chosen.

 

If the answer is (2) would answer the direct concern of the angels regarding “ one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?”

 

*****

“'Abdu 's-Salam al-Harawi said:

 

"I said to ar-Rida (a.s.): 'O son of the Messenger of Allah! tell me about the tree from which Adam and Hawwa' ate, what was it? Because people do have different views about it; some have narrated that it was a wheat-plant, and others have reported that it was the tree of envy.'

 

He said: 'All this is true.' I said: 'Then what do these explanations, with their differences, mean?'

 

He said: 'O son of as-Salt! verily the tree of the Garden bears (fruits of) many kinds; and it was a wheat-plant and (yet) it bore grapes; and it was not like a tree of this world. And when Allah raised the status of Adam by making the angels prostrate before him and by placing him in the Garden, he said: "Has Allah created any man superior than me?" And Allah knew what had came into his mind; so He called out to him: "Raise your head, O Adam! and look at the pillar of the Throne."

 

So, he looked at the pillar of the Throne and found written on it:

 

"There is no god except Allah; Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; 'Ali ibn Abl TaIib is the Leader of the faithful, and his wife, Fatimah is the Chief of the women of the worlds, and al-Hasan and al-Husayn are the Chiefs of the youths of the people of the Garden."

 

Adam said: "O my Lord! who are they?"

 

He, Mighty and Great is He said: "O Adam! they are (from) your off-springs; and they are better than you and all My creation; and if it were not (for) them, I would have not created you, nor the Garden, nor the fire, nor the heaven, nor the earth. So be careful not to look at them with envious eyes; otherwise, I will turn you out of My nearness."

 

But he looked at them with envious eyes and entertained the hope of (attaining to) their rank. So, the Satan got the better of him, until he ate from the forbidden tree; and got the better of Hawwa', and she looked at Fatimah with envious eyes until she too, like Adam, ate from the tree. Thereupon, Allah turned them out of His Garden, and got them down from His nearness to the earth.'" ('Uyunu'l-akhbar)

 

Commentary Surah 2: Verse 35

Tafsir Al-Mizan BY ALLAMAH MUHAMMAD HUSSEIN TABATABAI

www.almizan.org

 

*****

Here is what we read in the Hadith of Kisa , ( Selected Part is below) You can read the entire Hadith , Google Hadith Kisa./ Click Here for Info at Wiki, It is also reported by Sunni source, shaih Muslim.

"

The trusted Jibrail asked:

"O Lord! Who are underneath the blanket?" The Almighty and the Glorious replied:

 

"They are the 'Ahl ul Bayt' of the Prophet, the custodians of the message; they are-Fatimah, her father, her husband and her sons."

 

Jibrail (submissively) asked:

 

"O Lord! May I descend on the earth and be the sixth with them?"

"Yes. I give you permission," said Allah.

 

The trusted angel, Jibrail, came down (on the earth), and said:

 

"Peace be on you, O the messenger of Allah. The Highest High says: "Peace be on you. And distinguishes you with greetings and blessings.

He tells you:

 

'In the name of My majesty and glory, verily, I have not created the indeclinable sky, the levelled earth, the bright moon, the resplendent sun, the rotating cosmic system, the flowing seas, and the sailing ship, but for your sake and in your love.'

 

-----------------

(28) 'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one norning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped hitn under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then said: Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying)

Shih Muslim  (Book #031, Hadith #5955)

---------------

 

*****

Prophet Muhammad(pbuhahp) said:

 

"I was the prophet of Allah when Adam was yet in the process of creation.

I and Ali are from one and the same light."

 

 

Prophet Muhammad(pbuhahp) said:

 

"The first of us is Muhammad, the middle of us is Muhammad, the last of us is Muhammad, everyone of us is Muhammad."

 

To me when we look at  Verse of Tathir 33:33,  Event of Mubahalah 3:61,

Event of Ghadir Khum 5:67,  Quran and Ahlul Bayth(as) , Verse on love of Ahlul Bayth(as) 42: 23

 

"Say: I don’t ask you any wage except to love my near kin. And if anyone earns any good We shall give Him an increase of good (Qur’an 42:23).”

*****

 

The Qur’an is filled with merits of Ahlul Bayth(as), if you, were to read it in the light of all the above , you will see that, Lord of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuhahp) and his Ahlul Bayht(as) did not exalt the ones who will hurt the Ma'sooms(as), when Adam (as) was told, not to look at them with envious eyes; otherwise, I will turn you out of My(Allah(swt) nearness.

 

Noor (Light) of Prophet Muhammad(pbuhahp) , Ma’soom (as) we do not equate with any fallible.

So, there is not question of leadership or successorship after Prophet Muhammad (pbuhahp) for me, its very clear.

 

*****

"The merit for selection to the divine office of nubuwwat, risalat, imamat, or khilafat is the degree of submission to the divine will and the ability to reflect (or to convey) the same to others, the measure of perfection which determines the state of nearness to the absolute. The test (ibtila) is the theoretical and functional knowledge of the kalimat (the most comprehensive names) on account of which Adam was given the khilafatullah (vicegerency of Allah). These kalimat are accommodated in the essence of Muhammad and Ali Muhammad. They are the manifestation of the light of the kalimat appeared before Adam for the first time."

[ Commentary 2:124] http://quran.al-islam.org/

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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The thing is the hadiths are also mutashibiha as far as the agreed upon ones go. Sure there are some narrations which are muhkam with regards to succession, but as far, as proof of Ahlebayt with regards to the agreed upon narration, they are also mutashiba. But even if it wasn't and there were some Sahih hadiths that clearly show Imammate that are agreed upon, all it would show would the Sunni hadiths are inconsistent and have Shiism in it. As the Sunni hadiths also having Sunnism in it (Abu Baker being the best, etc), we can't say Sunni hadiths prove Imammate but they rather show two conflicting views regarding it and are not consistent. This would not be a proof of Imammate as it could be easily be that Sunni hadiths were influenced by Shiism. The fact is the agreed upon authentic book (Quran) doesn't clarify the issue. Therefore you have division and confusion. This makes Islam more of a confusion and a test, then a guidance.

with the clear signs, and the Psalms; and We have sent down to thee the Remembrance that thou mayest make clear to mankind what was sent down to them; and so haply they will reflect.

Nahl

Revelation is multifold:

Tanzil which is the quranic words

Ta'wil which is the authorized explanation of these words.

Quran did not claim that it on its own is sufficient. Quran was honest that we need the prophet to teach us it's true meaning. Prophet also was honest when it stated that the safeguard against going astray is to hold on 2 things : Quran and his household.

I think this much honesty and clarity in message should make Islam a message of guidance by principle.

Quran says that it is not the message that mislead but our likeness and leanings.

We have appointed only angels to be masters of the Fire, and their number We have appointed only as a trial for the unbelievers, that those who were given the Book may have certainty, and that those who believe may increase in belief, and that those who were given the Book and those who believe may not be in-doubt, and that those in whose hearts there is sickness, and the unbelievers, may say, 'What did God intend by this as a similitude?' So God leads astray whomsoever He will, and He guides whomsoever He will; and none knows the hosts of thy Lord but He. And it is naught but a Reminder to mortals.

Muddathir

As for the sunism being influenced by Shia , I think that is wrong. Would we say that Pauline Christianity was influenced by Jesus teachings?

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When you say "we reach the conclusion that Imamate is the necessary part of Islam", you mean Shias, right...because Sunnis have same Quran and have their hadiths, and don't come to the conclusion of Imamate. 

 

of course I mean Shia and anybody who approach the Qur'an scientifically, based on the Qur'an, authentic narrations and intellectual reasoning; through these elements every researcher will come the that conclusion.

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of course I mean Shia and anybody who approach the Qur'an scientifically, based on the Qur'an, authentic narrations and intellectual reasoning; through these elements every researcher will come the that conclusion.

 

So you think all Sunnis who researched the issue and came to the conclusion Shiism isn't proven in Quran and Sunnah are insincere or turning a blind eye?

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So you think all Sunnis who researched the issue and came to the conclusion Shiism isn't proven in Quran and Sunnah are insincere or turning a blind eye?

 

Of course not; but all Sunni scholars have been invited many times to discuss regarding these issues by Shia Maraji' but they never accept. Even some Maraji' invited them to Qom and they are ready to be their host, but they never accept.

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