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In the Name of God بسم الله
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coolguyjoe

Imamat In The Quran

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Salaam to all brother.

This question is not a new question.

1. But we can ask them another q:

Whay quran didnot mentioned the name of abu bakr and other caliphate? If the quran is the book of guidence it must name abubakr!!!

Because our brothers from ahl alsonna belief that who ever dont believe in abubakr he is kafir! (تفسير القرطبي - ج 8 - ص 146

2. Allah says in quran that quran itself is not sufficient for guidence and it needs the interpretation of the prophet. Allah says:

:

وَأَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الذِّكْرَ لِتُبَيِّنَ.

سوره نحل - آيه 44

مَا آَتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانْتَهُوا

سوره حشر - آيه 7ت:

أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ

فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ

And many other verses says:also you have to refer to the prophet pbuh.

3. The last but not the least point is : one of the claim that quran has is: this book cannot be Alternatable. It another word no quran is in a way that no one alternate it.

One of the politicy quran has is that it doesnt mention name of imam ali pbuh. Because if he name Him, they try to change or hide quan as it happened to other book like old and new testement.

Or like whate they did to the verse of mouta(temperary marrige).

Allah says

:فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُمْ بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآَتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً

But omar forbids this verse!

Finaly i excuse from my brother and sisters because of mistakes in typing . I type it with my cellphone hardly!!!

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Hmm, i think in Quran the only clarity about a person being made imam is about Ibrahim in Surah al-Baqarah. Will have to check later to confirm.

Bismillah.

 

Salaam.

 

The Qur'an also mentions Satan, pharaoh, korah, Samiri and ..., does it mean that they are good? It did not mention many many prophets, does it mean they were not such respectful to be mentioned in the Qur'an? ]

You forgot- the Quran also mentions jews. Cant talk about the mention of bad people in Quran without mentioning this lot now can we?

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The link provided by Narsis said the Quran talks in general terms but not specific terms. But we see it also talks specifically (in the case of Zaid, it did and even mentioned his name).  So the claim the Quran only talks in general terms is baseless. It can talk in specific terms as well. If it can talk about Zaid specifically, and mention his name, it could do so with Ali. Otherwise the Quran doesn't point to Ali directly but it's hadiths that to do, and that make verses of Quran point to Ali.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29

 

Now your just speaking conjecture. On what basis must Allah mention anything? You havnt addressed the FACT that your argument is a logical fallacy. It is invalid as an argument. The fact that there are Shia's who follow 12 divinely chosen imams (even if they are not mentioned explicitly), also proves your argument to be void. One huge error everyone seems to be making is that the Quran is not a literal book, and I have yet to be proved wrong on this. Therefore, the sheer possibility (from a rational unbiased sense) that the verses can mention the 12 imams, not by name, but by meaning, description, events of specific verses, invalidates any baseless, preconceived claim regarding the non existence of imamate. This is where one must challenge the basis of the fundamental beliefs of each school of thought and see how consistent to Quran and Hadith does these beliefs fall under.

 

Ex. Shia Islam believes only God must/can appoint His leaders -> Evidence Quran is clear on this and such a point is proved.

Edited by PureEthics

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On field of the sciences of Quran is muhkam (not open to interpretations) verses and mutashabeh verses ( verses that looks alike but could mean different things )

The golden rule is not to take an isolated verse and build upon it your conclusions without considering other cases in Quran , specially the ones that are certain and muhkam.

It is the golden rule even in hadith. When we are faced with hadith that is unclear or could have many meanings, we should related to clear hadiths . We should not attempt to bring meaning to that hadith based on our philosophy or deficient understanding of religion.

The mutashabeh verses and hadiths serve many functions but one important function of them is that they serve as a test. Weak hearts and weak minds will love to resort to imaginations, philosophies and innovated ideas to explain these hadiths then to fill the gap they created by abandoning the meanings that are carried in muhkam hadiths.

While believers will resort to the golden rule.

So in a way, many people will claim that they follow the religion. If they are tested many will be happy to make up their own philosophies and follow them, many like to take a verse or isolated hadith and build up upon them wrong conclusion while ignoring a mesh and network of hadiths and verses that when put together they will lead us without the need to fill the gaps with rubbish.

 

The thing is the hadiths are also mutashibiha as far as the agreed upon ones go. Sure there are some narrations which are muhkam with regards to succession, but as far, as proof of Ahlebayt with regards to the agreed upon narration, they are also mutashiba. But even if it wasn't and there were some Sahih hadiths that clearly show Imammate that are agreed upon, all it would show would the Sunni hadiths are inconsistent and have Shiism in it. As the Sunni hadiths also having Sunnism in it (Abu Baker being the best, etc), we can't say Sunni hadiths prove Imammate but they rather show two conflicting views regarding it and are not consistent. This would not be a proof of Imammate as it could be easily be that Sunni hadiths were influenced by Shiism. The fact is the agreed upon authentic book (Quran) doesn't clarify the issue. Therefore you have division and confusion. This makes Islam more of a confusion and a test, then a guidance.

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Book was not dropped shipped to Arabs by its Author. Book was revealed in the time of approximately  23 Years, Teacher came with it, to explain.(Fact conveniently ignored).

 

Book it self said that whatever the teacher says is also from the Author of the book (which was to be presented as a Miracle). Meaning what ever he says is as important and has the same source as the book.

 

Teacher already knew the issue, said follow the Book and this particular group, for true meaning or truth about my explanation/Teachings.

 

No more excuses left.

 

Political Islam would scrub tradition/history books to ensure their doctrine is not impacted, if anything did come out. Smear campaign or some other tactic would be employed to water it down.(You do know that  Governments /Political People in power can do this- (They were always in power, how can Shia have a great influence on there books?).

 

But there is enough material there for the one seeking the True Guidance. 

 

Saying, Division and Confusion are great way to avoid responsibility. Atheist use this argument against God. 

 

Truth is clear as daylight, for the one who sincerely seek it.

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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This is the nature of "words" that can be interpreted differently, but we have to verify every speech by its instruments; if our only source was the Qur'an, your objections could be considered but we have narrations as the interpretation of the Qur'an; through narrations, from both Shia and Sunni, and also intellectual reasoning we reach to the conclusion that Imamate is the necessary part of the Islam.

 

When you say "we reach the conclusion that Imamate is the necessary part of Islam", you mean Shias, right...because Sunnis have same Quran and have their hadiths, and don't come to the conclusion of Imamate. 

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[Qur'an 2:30] Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

 

[ Qur'an 2:124] And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers

 

*****

That would be your job as an outsider to consider both sides and do your independent and unbiased investigation to reach the Truth.


  1. Can an fallible be the successor of the infallible.

  2. People who were just worshiping idols be left to govern and safeguard the Religion that Prophets from Adam till the Last Prophet Muhammad(pbuh ahp) struggled to complete?

  3. Did the Prophet Muhammad(pbuhahp) announce a successor?

  4. If not Did he at least gave a framework to elect one?

  5. First was appointed by elite class, without consultation with the most learned and knowledgeable person not consulted?

  6. First used which method to appoint the second, was he wiser than the man who brought the Religion?

  7. Second, did not trust the general Shura, ( appointed six hand picked people to a selection committee)?

  8. Second did not think it was wise to have a general election/shura, did not trust the general public enough, but Prophet left it for them to choose?

Qualities of the successor were clearly and explicitly detailed in the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh ahp) ensured that people understood it.


If Imam Ali(as) name was explicitly written, It had to be with his genealogy, otherwise people might say it was a different Ali. Even if it was explicitly written, what happens after him? how would he appoint the next ? (If people did not listen to the Prophet of Allah(swt), why would they listen to Imam Ali, announcing his successor, so 12 names needed to be explicitly written down. ?

 

God might as well, arrange for daily email as to how you need to spend the day. "Intellect" needs to be returned back to HIM.

 

 

A thinking and logical mind needs to engage and not make excuses, when the Truth is staring at him like clear daylight.

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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"Indeed Allah chose Adam and Noah, and the progeny of Abraham and the progeny of Imran above all the nations;" [`Al Imran 33]

 

Abu Taleb is a kunya.  His real name is Imran.  This verse said his progeny is above all nations.  Pretty straightforward....

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"Indeed Allah chose Adam and Noah, and the progeny of Abraham and the progeny of Imran above all the nations;" [`Al Imran 33]

 

Abu Taleb is a kunya.  His real name is Imran.  This verse said his progeny is above all nations.  Pretty straightforward....

 

Can you prove that this verse was revealed about Abu Talib and his decendants? 

 

Did any of the Imam's use this verse to prove their status? 

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Did any of the Imam's use this verse to prove their status?

The imams A.S do not have to use verses to prove their status or prove that the verse is implying their status. Their main explicit proof is Muhammad A.S. Whose word is divine inspiration. The point is there must be evidence pertaining that verse is implied to mean or include the Ahlulbayt.

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Can you prove that this verse was revealed about Abu Talib and his decendants? 

 

Did any of the Imam's use this verse to prove their status? 

No, I can't prove it.  You can't exactly prove anything in Islam because of contradictory narrations so I don't think it matters.  It is just evidence from the Ku'ran.

 

And I don't know.  Maybe they did.  Maybe they didn't.  I didn't live with them every moment of their lives.

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"Indeed Allah chose Adam and Noah, and the progeny of Abraham and the progeny of Imran above all the nations;" [`Al Imran 33]

Abu Taleb is a kunya. His real name is Imran. This verse said his progeny is above all nations. Pretty straightforward....

Imran is the name of Abu Taleb, but is there evidence that the Imran in this verse is addressing him and not the prophet Imran ?

Also, Abu Taleb, his brother and father of the prophet; Abdullah Ibn Abd Al-Mutalib are already direct descendants from Ibrahim, so when Allah addresses Ibrahim and his progeny, it would indirectly apply to them as well. It would not make sense if the Ayah is stating that Allah has chosen both, the progeny of Ibrahim and his descendants(if we are implying that Imran in the context of this Ayah is Abu Taleb), since they would be the same progeny that are being addressed either way.

It's like me saying, I choose the progeny of person X and person Y to possess a honourable and noble lineage. Assuming that person Y is the great great great grandson of person X it wouldn't make sense to address both person X and Y, as both share the same lineage already. In other words, when I address person X by stating to him that his family lineage possesses a Noble title, this would automatically also be indirectly addressed to person X for being in his family tree. Hence, it would be redundant to address person Y separately. Like wise for this Noble Ayah.

Edited by Al-Najashi

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The imams A.S do not have to use verses to prove their status or prove that the verse is implying their status. Their main explicit proof is Muhammad A.S. Whose word is divine inspiration. The point is there must be evidence pertaining that verse is implied to mean or include the Ahlulbayt.

 

 

Isn't that what I had asked?  :wacko:

 

You can't just assume the verse is referring to them without any valid evidence.. 

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Imran is the name of Abu Taleb, but is there evidence that the Imran in this verse is addressing him and not the prophet Imran ?

Also, Abu Taleb, his brother and father of the prophet; Abdullah Ibn Abd Al-Mutalib are already direct descendants from Ibrahim, so when Allah addresses Ibrahim and his progeny, it would indirectly apply to them as well. It would not make sense if the Ayah is stating that Allah has chosen both, the progeny of Ibrahim and his descendants(if we are implying that Imran in the context of this Ayah is Abu Taleb), since they would be the same progeny that are being addressed either way.

It's like me saying, I choose the progeny of person X and person Y to possess a honourable and noble lineage. Assuming that person Y is the great great great grandson of person X it wouldn't make sense to address both person X and Y, as both share the same lineage already. In other words, when I address person X by stating to him that his family lineage possesses a Noble title, this would automatically also be indirectly addressed to person X for being in his family tree.

The only other 2 people that are considered to be Imran are the father of Moses and the father of Mary.  Both of them are ALSO in the progeny of Abraham.  So what's the problem with those?   :donno:

 

"And We have vested (the knowledge and authority of) everything in the mubin Imam." (Ya Seen 12)

 

(PS, I like your text below all of your posts)

Edited by El-Ketab

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Isn't that what I had asked? :wacko:

You can't just assume the verse is referring to them without any valid evidence..

You were implying the imams had to have mentioned that a verse is referring to them. Which is not the case. There can be verses that were revealed because of them or imply their characteristics and so forth but they never used it to imply that it was for them. Edited by PureEthics

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