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salamtek

Shayateen/shadim/shadayeh: Demons

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From my younger years, one of the most fascinating things to me revolved around demons. Just their very existence was enough to make me rather religious when I was younger. Now, as I've grown older, I don't carry it as much, but I still think it is interesting. One of things that fascinated me about demons is their number, there are said to be more than humans according to some sources, and others claim that every deity that is ever worshiped is a demon.

 

It's Sunni belief (AFAIK) that Muhammad was bewitched, and it's Shia belief that he was not bewitched because he recited وَمِنْ شَرِّ النَّفَّاثَاتِ فِي الْعُقَدِ, (a refuge from the knot blowers). You see, we have very good Jewish friends, and they informed me of a type of segulah (or a charm) that you can use to find lost objects. How many times have you thought you lost something that is right in front of you, only to completely trash your place because you couldn't find the thing that turned out being exactly where it was supposed to be? The idea is that the hider of these lost objects is/are demons (especially if you know exactly where you put it) and this is a very prevalent thought in Middle Eastern Christianity and Judaism.The charm goes that you tie a knot, and that it binds the demon that hides your missing object from you, however you don't blow on it, but it's interesting to note that this type of charm is against demons, and it's intent isn't towards humans.

 

Another is that humans have used demons for help. There was a story in Talmud about the Ashmedai helping Rabbi Akiva restore Judaism in the Roman empire, after a decree was sent out that anyone practicing would be tortured/killed. He (Ashmedai) planned with R. Akiva (who first mocked the idea and said "God, you sent Hagar angels for help, to me you sent a demon?) to posses Caesar's daughter and Rabbi Akiva, when he whispers in his ear, the demon was to leave. Everything goes as planned and Caesar asks "what would you like" and Akiva says "to allow us to practice Judaism" and he reverses his order, and Judaism is established once again.

 

On the spirit world, the Talmud states that one can burn a black cats placenta, who is also the daughter of a black cat, and smears the ashes on their eyelids, they are able to see the spirit world: two precautions are given; one must hide the the ashes in an iron tube (so the demons don't get it) and it may make a person crazy (A rabbi went crazy and all the other rabbis had to pray to God so he would be spared, as he couldn't move after being able to see the spirits, along with the demons).

 

Judaic demonology shares some of the same concepts in Islam, but with jinns. Jewish Kabbalist R. Kaduri used to smoke all the time. Or did he? In a book published by one of his students, he was using smoke to control demons. Why smoke? Because Jewish demonology says that demons are made up of 2 elements, fire and air. In Islam, jinns are made of a smokeless fire, but there seem to be air jinns as well, with all of them being created by a fire that lacks smoke.
 

I've heard it suggested that one of the reasons Christianity spread like wildfire was its effectiveness in alleviating demonic possession. Many cultures held that the symptoms of epilepsy were holy and from their gods, but Christians were able to exorcise the demons out of those who had these "other gods" in them. A story in Acts says that Jews were trying to cast a demon out, and the demon says "I know Jesus, and I know Paul, but who are you", after which "then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding." This was taken later, by Jews and Greeks, that Jesus was who he claimed to be (i.e, Son of God) and that Paul spoke the truth in regards to him, and many converted, and completely renounced devil worship/sorcery and burned their spell books publicly.

 

Anyway, the questions I have on Islam's and Judaism's view on demons is many, but let this be a starting post.

 

Where is a good resource to find out about demons?

To what extent to demons affect people who are not possessed?

What would constitute an Islamic or Jewish exorcism?

Edited by salamtek

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Believe it or not, but not all Shaytan Djins are bad.  I know someone who has a Shaytan Djin that is a practicing Muslim. But yes, the Iblees that was kicked out of heaven was bad.  However , he is just the father of many many Djins who have free will. The name 'Shaytan' is a race and people from the same race are not necessarily the same in regards to religion and belief. 

 

From amongst the many races , there are Ifrit Djins, Jan Djins, Marid Djins, Shaytan Djins, arabian Djins, Chinese Djins .  They also have different religions, they can be Muslim, Jewish..etc. 

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Believe it or not, but not all Shaytan Djins are bad.

I was told when young, that any type of spirit is a mimicker. A demon knows the unknown, so it can fool you and play into your emotions to get you to believe that someone is your descended relative, etc. Something done prior to an exorcism is asking the person allegedly possessed if they know what is in their pocket, hand, etc, while trying to conceal it. The point is that the demon whispers to the person what object it is, and this is (sadly) not even close to enough evidence in the Catholic church to warrant an exorcism. In essence even the ones that aren't "evil" are capable of destroying someone, and they should all be viewed as enemies of sons of Adam.

 

 I know someone who has a Shaytan Djin that is a practicing Muslim. But yes, the Iblees that was kicked out of heaven was bad.

May God bless them and keep them! What are their symptoms?

Another question I wanted to ask was how is it Islamically determined for someone who is possessed?

 

 However , he is just the father of many many Djins who have free will. The name 'Shaytan' is a race and people from the same race are not necessarily the same in regards to religion and belief. 

 

From amongst the many races , there are Ifrit Djins, Jan Djins, Marid Djins, Shaytan Djins, arabian Djins, Chinese Djins .  They also have different religions, they can be Muslim, Jewish..etc.

One of the things suggested to me was that Iraqi is filled with demons. Not only did Ancient Babylonians and Assyrians worship these creatures (as did Pre-Islamic Arabians, Hindus, etc) but that they offered human sacrifices (especially in the form of children) to these entities. Not only did this strengthen their power, but it's also the cause of the words problems today. Lots of American movies (The Exoricst, Deliver Us from Evil, all of which are loosely based on real events), have people coming back from war possessed with demons. This would be akin to the ifrit jinns, as they are known to inhabit the crevices of ruins and cause things to "go bump", as it were, and others that cause people to be psychic.

 

In Christianity no "djin" is to be trusted ever, and the whispers that people hear that cause them to be psychic. There was a story in the new testament about Jesus exorcising a woman for just the sheer ability of soothsaying. The coffee cup (we call them finjan in Arabic) I've heard are also evil because the person is speaking to both the patron and the demon in order to get the patrons answers. These "jinns" are seemingly harmless, all the do is predict the future, but we as Christians are still prohibited from delving into such a practice, or seeking a practitioner of soothsaying.

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May God bless them and keep them! What are their symptoms?

Another question I wanted to ask was how is it Islamically determined for someone who is possessed?

 

 

 

They are actually not ''Possesed'' because their Shaytan Djin is a Muslim and appears to be really good.  They just live with it.   I cannot judge what is happening because I don't live with them, but the person had many wishes fulfilled and is happy.   There are shaytan Djins that are good and Shaytan Djins that are bad.     I personally would not like it because I'm scared of this.

 

A djin does not come to you if you are scared ..

I was told when young, that any type of spirit is a mimicker. A demon knows the unknown, so it can fool you and play into your emotions to get you to believe that someone is your descended relative, etc. Something done prior to an exorcism is asking the person allegedly possessed if they know what is in their pocket, hand, etc, while trying to conceal it. The point is that the demon whispers to the person what object it is, and this is (sadly) not even close to enough evidence in the Catholic church to warrant an exorcism. In essence even the ones that aren't "evil" are capable of destroying someone, and they should all be viewed as enemies of sons of Adam.

 

 

I don't know if this is true because human beings are also spirits.   Imam's are also spirits ..in fact, every being on this planet and in other real is a spirit except Allah (Allah is not a spirit or a being).

 

Spirits can be either good or bad, they have free will to chose. Yes Shaytain Alrajeem knows the unknown (the king of Shaytans as described in the Quran) but he also has a limit of this knowledge. For instance, Allah and the angels are more powerful than Shaytan Al rajeem and they can protect you from evil if you call upon them and if you specifically recite certain verses of the Quran.   If you say in arabic that you seek refuge from shaytan al-rajeem , he will be afraid of Allah's power, and will run away.

 

 

One of the things suggested to me was that Iraqi is filled with demons. Not only did Ancient Babylonians and Assyrians worship these creatures (as did Pre-Islamic Arabians, Hindus, etc) but that they offered human sacrifices (especially in the form of children) to these entities. Not only did this strengthen their power, but it's also the cause of the words problems today. Lots of American movies (The Exoricst, Deliver Us from Evil, all of which are loosely based on real events), have people coming back from war possessed with demons. This would be akin to the ifrit jinns, as they are known to inhabit the crevices of ruins and cause things to "go bump", as it were, and others that cause people to be psychic.

 

In Christianity no "djin" is to be trusted ever, and the whispers that people hear that cause them to be psychic. There was a story in the new testament about Jesus exorcising a woman for just the sheer ability of soothsaying. The coffee cup (we call them finjan in Arabic) I've heard are also evil because the person is speaking to both the patron and the demon in order to get the patrons answers. These "jinns" are seemingly harmless, all the do is predict the future, but we as Christians are still prohibited from delving into such a practice, or seeking a practitioner of soothsaying.

 

Yes, one should indeed be very careful. Usually ,its the human that calls upon spirits rather than the other way round.    They do it because they want certain wish fulfilled , or some other times they want to take revenge on somebody etc.  Sometimes (but not all), the spirits can be dangerous. The Quran has condemned us about certain Marid and Ifrit, but again, times have changed and not all Ifrit and Marid are bad.   By the way, the deities of Babylon such as Allat ,  Izzat still exist today.  They are immortals according to sources. 

Edited by -Enlightened

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Hello,

 

 


Spirits can be either good or bad, they have free will to chose. Yes Shaytain Alrajeem knows the unknown (the king of Shaytans as described in the Quran) but he also has a limit of this knowledge. For instance, Allah and the angels are more powerful than Shaytan Al rajeem and they can protect you from evil if you call upon them and if you specifically recite certain verses of the Quran.   If you say in arabic that you seek refuge from shaytan al-rajeem , he will be afraid of Allah's power, and will run away.


 

 

This seems much more related to mysticism than religion.  So, if a person does not know or does not recite these specific versus from the Quran then they can be attacked by an evil spirit?  AND, you have to say, in Arabic no less, that you seek refuge from evil spirits before they will run away?  Sounds like something from a fairy tale.  

 

Where did you find such instructions?

 

All the Best,

David

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Hello,

 

 

 

This seems much more related to mysticism than religion.  So, if a person does not know or does not recite these specific versus from the Quran then they can be attacked by an evil spirit?  AND, you have to say, in Arabic no less, that you seek refuge from evil spirits before they will run away?  Sounds like something from a fairy tale.  

 

Where did you find such instructions?

 

All the Best,

David

 

 

Exactly.

Re-read my post. I said there are 2 things which you can do 

 

1- Call upon Allah and the Angels (you don't need to know Arabic for this but you need to have the right prounounciations for the angels name, you dont call them Gabriel, Michael or Raphael, you have to call them Jibra'eel, Mika'eeel, Israfeel,  My christian non-muslim friend also confirmed it that it has to be prounonced that way (arabic style))

and

2- Recite to seek refuge from Al Shaytan Al rajeem in ARABIC and certain verses, exactly how it is mentioned in the Quran.  No discrimination , but Arabic is the universal language that all Djins understand .

 

For the arabic part, I am speaking out of Hadith & experience when I had a dream of a Shaytan Djin in smokeless fire  attacking me , I said '' I seek refuge from Shaytan Al rajeem'' in arabic , and he disappeared. Then I woke up ,everything is fine .

 

 

Also david,  if you are not religious and you are just here to criticize and to say that ''It is a fairy tale'' ,  i suggest you dont reply. 

Edited by -Enlightened

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Hello,

 

It still sounds like mysticism to me.  You mention a hadith.  Please provide it.

 

 


2- Recite to seek refuge from Al Shaytan Al rajeem in ARABIC and certain verses, exactly how it is mentioned in the Quran.  No discrimination , but Arabic is the universal language that all Djins understand .

 


 

How is it possible to know this.  And, what proof do you have?

 

All the Best,

David

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Hello,

 

It still sounds like mysticism to me.  You mention a hadith.  Please provide it.

 

 

How is it possible to know this.  And, what proof do you have?

 

All the Best,

David

 

Mysticism and Religion is the same.  There is no religion without mysticism.

 

The verse of the Quran shows that Djin understand arabic quran

http://quran.com/72

 

Say, [O Muhammad], "It has been revealed to me that a group of the jinn listened and said, 'Indeed, we have heard an amazing Qur'an.

Edited by -Enlightened

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All of the above and more. Don't ya just wish they'd stick to the red suit and pitch fork?

 

As a Christian I was taught there are only angels and demons, nothing in between. Since then, and before learning about Jinn I had an experience that made me think there might be more than pure holy and pure evil. Even so, don't waste your time thinking that a spirit may not be pure evil and that you can make friends with it, or that it will give you everything in life. Don't forget...dependence on anything other than God is not a good path regardless of how happy you may be.

 

Considering angels/demons/jinn came long before the Arabic language it would be silly to think they only understand Arabic, nor that you have to get their names exactly right, nor that you have to do a song and dance, or do any specific rituals that may "chase" them away. No amount of garlic will do the job. 

 

Maybe more later...

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Jinns speak a language called Jinnic.

 

 

That is, if they live in the Middle east. The language changes its name to Jinnese, Jinian, Jinnlish, Jindi etc. depending on whether their main residence is  China, Russia, England or India. Non-Texas jinns find it difficult to emulate the Texas drawl, known as Jinnas.  So they never go to Texas.

 

Jinns move about freely. Since human beings cannot see them, they just board a plane without a passport, a visa or an air ticket. That is, if they are feeling lazy. Of course, many can also fly and do, when they wish to have a bit of exercise.

 

Sometimes they love to laze around the lounge of a cruise ship and oggle at the pretty girls. That is why they don't take their wives with them. The wives, likewise, love to flirt. Their favourite are the big, burly and oil-richTexas jinns.   

 

Watch out for jinns. They can see you but you cannot see them.  

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They are actually not ''Possesed'' because their Shaytan Djin is a Muslim and appears to be really good.  They just live with it.   I cannot judge what is happening because I don't live with them, but the person had many wishes fulfilled and is happy.   There are shaytan Djins that are good and Shaytan Djins that are bad.     I personally would not like it because I'm scared of this.

 

A djin does not come to you if you are scared ..

Like I said, we don't believe there are good demons and bad ones, in this case good "jinn" are bad. They're all bad. They may act like they are good, but it usually doesn't last long. By some time, you realize it's evil, it's already too late. I advise you to keep caution around you're friend, because the demon can affect them and you, if it sees you are trying to help them overcome him.

 

Demons only show themselves to the frightened, I don't think they actively attack them.

 

I don't know if this is true because human beings are also spirits.   Imam's are also spirits ..in fact, every being on this planet and in other real is a spirit except Allah (Allah is not a spirit or a being).

 

Spirits can be either good or bad, they have free will to chose. Yes Shaytain Alrajeem knows the unknown (the king of Shaytans as described in the Quran) but he also has a limit of this knowledge. For instance, Allah and the angels are more powerful than Shaytan Al rajeem and they can protect you from evil if you call upon them and if you specifically recite certain verses of the Quran.   If you say in arabic that you seek refuge from shaytan al-rajeem , he will be afraid of Allah's power, and will run away.

 

A mimicker is a demon that mimics someone you know that is deceased in order to gain your trust. It's my understanding that there are specific demons who do this, and they are the ones that, when one plays an ouija board, they know things that only a deceased relative could know, or when someone is possessed, they mimic the sound of the dead. This is another reason why we are not allowed to visit "yidoni" in Hebrew or "eedhana/bidayan" in Aramaic, because they are telling you what you want to hear, in order for you to trust them.

 

In Judaism, Hebrew is understood by both angels and demons. Every other language is understood by just demons (with the exception of Gabrial, he can speak all Semitic languages, I think), excluding Aramaic. Neither demons (assuming they don't possess an Aramaic speaker) nor angels understand Aramaic. There are 2 thoughts to this, one is that they can't, and the other is that they won't (angels believe it's corrupted Hebrew, and demons think the speaker is someone who is already corrupt). In Kabbalah, Aramaic is a language that connects one to God directly, while Hebrew relies on the intercession of angels. Saying "gosin bikh allaha min satana"; demons can't understand that, nor can angels. You're better off saying this in English, Arabic, etc.

 

Yes, one should indeed be very careful. Usually ,its the human that calls upon spirits rather than the other way round.    They do it because they want certain wish fulfilled , or some other times they want to take revenge on somebody etc.  Sometimes (but not all), the spirits can be dangerous. The Quran has condemned us about certain Marid and Ifrit, but again, times have changed and not all Ifrit and Marid are bad.   By the way, the deities of Babylon such as Allat ,  Izzat still exist today.  They are immortals according to sources

 

Allat, Izzat and Manat are Arab deities, not Babylonian.

The Quran says that all gods that are worshiped have died (16:20-21), but if they exist as demons, that's a different story.

The finest trick of the devil is to persuade you that he doesn't exist. In this case, I see another one of his better tricks is convincing people he's not evil.

 

 

All of the above and more. Don't ya just wish they'd stick to the red suit and pitch fork?

 

As a Christian I was taught there are only angels and demons, nothing in between. Since then, and before learning about Jinn I had an experience that made me think there might be more than pure holy and pure evil. Even so, don't waste your time thinking that a spirit may not be pure evil and that you can make friends with it, or that it will give you everything in life. Don't forget...dependence on anything other than God is not a good path regardless of how happy you may be.

This is definitely an orthodox position. However, I can't agree that every spirit that is perceivable may be good. How risky, how will you even know if it was a demon or a real spirit?

 

 

Considering angels/demons/jinn came long before the Arabic language it would be silly to think they only understand Arabic, nor that you have to get their names exactly right, nor that you have to do a song and dance, or do any specific rituals that may "chase" them away. No amount of garlic will do the job.

 

Arabic is a Semitic language that came into existence much after Aramaic and Hebrew. Hebrew is said to be spoken first, and after the fall of man, Aramaic came in existence (in Jewish thought), and was spoken by Adam and Eve alongside Hebrew. Even in the Quran verse 72:1, it mentions "nafar" or a single group, not the whole of Jinnhood, so maybe some Jinns know Arabic and some don't. If there are Chinese Jinns, wouldn't they speak Chinese?

Edited by salamtek

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This is definitely an orthodox position. However, I can't agree that every spirit that is perceivable may be good. How risky, how will you even know if it was a demon or a real spirit?

 

 

Arabic is a Semitic language that came into existence much after Aramaic and Hebrew. Hebrew is said to be spoken first, and after the fall of man, Aramaic came in existence (in Jewish thought), and was spoken by Adam and Eve alongside Hebrew. Even in the Quran verse 72:1, it mentions "nafar" or a single group, not the whole of Jinnhood, so maybe some Jinns know Arabic and some don't. If there are Chinese Jinns, wouldn't they speak Chinese?

Baptist is a rather orthodox version of Protestantism.

 

A demon is a real spirit. It doesn't matter what language they speak. If you manage to detect one, don't talk to it, just claim your victory and leave it's destination in the hands of God. Sounds simple, isn't. There's more required internally than any ritual can do for you. 

 

Paul said to test the spirits to see if they are from God. I'd suggest you leave that alone too if you can. If you are not a strong spiritual minded person that is prepared to handle the repercussions, leave it alone. Once you enter the realm of spiritual warfare, there is no leaving it. Unless you are like Paul, (single, nothing to lose, and fully spiritually minded) it's grief you don't need.

 

I'm not saying to ignore the whole concept, or pretend they don't exist.. protect yourself, but don't go picking a fight with something you can't see.  

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Baptist is a rather orthodox version of Protestantism.

 

A demon is a real spirit. It doesn't matter what language they speak. If you manage to detect one, don't talk to it, just claim your victory and leave it's destination in the hands of God. Sounds simple, isn't. There's more required internally than any ritual can do for you. 

 

Paul said to test the spirits to see if they are from God. I'd suggest you leave that alone too if you can. If you are not a strong spiritual minded person that is prepared to handle the repercussions, leave it alone. Once you enter the realm of spiritual warfare, there is no leaving it. Unless you are like Paul, (single, nothing to lose, and fully spiritually minded) it's grief you don't need.

 

I'm not saying to ignore the whole concept, or pretend they don't exist.. protect yourself, but don't go picking a fight with something you can't see.  

It's important to stress just how important it is to say this. Many people that claim to have paranormal experiences that involve demons say that they try to ignore it at first. After a couple of attempts at ignoring, it becomes strong and is able to do things such as make objects move (and hit you) or push you down stairs, etc in order to make you acknowledge it.

 

Even the spirits that you test could prove impossible to tell. There's a story that comes to mind told to me about the Ben Ish Chai (Kabbalah Institute) in Baghdad probably around 100 or so years ago. There was a boy who, at 5-6 years of age, knew the Torah perfectly, and recited lines from the Talmud, and when his families Rabbi asked how is it he knows this, he stated "Because Eliyahu/Elijah tells me so". They took him to a rabbi at the Ben Ish Chai, the rabbi there also believed that it was Eliyahu. He later took the boy elsewhere, and the rabbis there told him the same thing, it's Eliyahu. The rabbi became so convinced that it wasn't Eliyahu, that he devised a plan to get rid of this entity. He wrote down a parashat about demons and told the boy to explain it to him. "Eliyahu" was saying "no I must go, I have to go" and it never came back again. There was also a worry that the boy would die from Ayin Hora/3eyn alHasad/Evil eye, so it was better to exorcise him of this demon, than to keep it. This is just how good demons are at mimicking.

 

Even testing the spirit can lead to bad outcomes: what if it turns out to be a demon?

I suppose the only test could be to see if what the spirit is saying is matching with scripture. But I agree, it's something you should acknowledge, but not play into. You also should not try to control them, bring them up from the dead, etc.

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Why would a Jew, Christian, or Muslim want to be interested in demons? They are very evil beings. The reason why this world is so screwed up is because Satan could not contain his pride and bitterness against God. He deceived Eve and look what happened as a result. 

 

Satan was jealous because God created human beings to be his children while creating angels only to be his servants. The guy had serious issues even before the human race was created.

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I was ready to post the most ridiculous post in my history and I was super excited about with pictures and stories and creepy things

Then it came to me to check what forum is this since almost all those who participated are Christians .......big disappointment .

Anyways.....the closest thing to jin in western mythology is huldufólk. And I don't like the Christian concept of demons nor the movies that contain them, I prefer the Japanese one with good and bad demons.

Also the original Greek word didn't attribute evil to demons. He word only mean spirits or something.

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Sorry to disappoint. Go ahead and post. It might be worth a chuckle.

 

I don't much like the Christian concept either, but it's a bit late to go looking for a concept I do like. 

Imho, the closest thing to jinn in the western world, I originally called "head friends", found mostly around those wrongly diagnosed with schizophrenia. There doesn't seem to be any inherent evil about them although they don't appear to be very helpful either.

 

I wouldn't have thought it any more than imaginary if one didn't stick around after a certain fellow left.  

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I just finished watching this, very, very informative and he gives good detail about the Islamic view on the subject. I was thinking of putting the video on here, but the link should suffice for those interested. What an amazing coincidence he decided to do this lecture exactly a week after I posted the original post. Fortunately, most of what I asked was answered by "Enlightened" and though she lacked sources, this video evidences a great deal of what she was saying (not that I doubted her).

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Hi Salam and others,

Quote from Post 1:
From my younger years, one of the most fascinating things to me revolved around demons. Just their very existence was enough to make me rather religious when I was younger. Now, as I've grown older, I don't carry it as much, but I still think it is interesting. One of things that fascinated me about demons is their number, there are said to be more than humans according to some sources

Another is that humans have used demons for help
I've heard it suggested that one of the reasons Christianity spread like wildfire was its effectiveness in alleviating demonic possession. Many cultures held that the symptoms of epilepsy were holy and from their gods, but Christians were able to exorcise the demons out of those who had these "other gods" in them

Where is a good resource to find out about demons?
To what extent to demons affect people who are not possessed?

Response: --- I have read the various comments and explanations and see that most have opinions or some experience.

Quote from Post 3:
In Christianity no "djin" is to be trusted ever, and the whispers that people hear that cause them to be psychic. There was a story in the new testament about Jesus exorcising a woman for just the sheer ability of soothsaying

Yes, and there is another case with Paul in Acts 16:
16 Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling.
17 This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, “These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.”
18 And this she did for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And he came out that very hour.
19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to the authorities.

 

--- Here was a case of a spirit from the underworld that had been profitable to her masters, by its fortune telling --- through a willing vessel, the slave girl.
The spirit also new who Paul and Silas were, and identified them openly because the ‘spiritual underworld’ knows all about God and Jesus.
--- This is why Christians are still able to cast out evil spirits in Jesus name, and they still do, because Christ defeated Satan.

But we have to know Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit, or there is danger, as you also mentioned in Post 1 of ‘the sons of Sceva,’ Acts 19:
13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.”
14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?”
16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
17 This became known both to all Jews and Greeks dwelling in Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.
18 And many who had believed came confessing and telling their deeds.
19 Also, many of those who had practiced magic brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all.

Dealing with the occult and evil spirits is dangerous to the unprepared. It is like SoP said in Post 14:
“I'm not saying to ignore the whole concept, or pretend they don't exist. protect yourself, but don't go picking a fight with something you can't see.”


The source book to read is the New Testament, and I can add more later, but I don’t want to go beyond what people can understand.--- (I will watch the video also.)

Placid

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To continue:

I watched the video and listened to the speaker with great interest because he explained a lot of the activities of the spiritual underworld.

There are quite a few references to Jinn and a few to evil spirits in the Quran but no mention of demons or vipers or witches which are also of the demonic realm, --- and there is no real pattern of how they work.

He mentions that the leader of the Jinn ‘was kicked out of heaven,’ and that was Islis. That he is a liar, and that the jinn are of the same nature. --- that when people come to the Jinn, the Jinn end up misleading them

He had not mentioned the deliverance ministry in the New Testament which gives examples of all types of healing and deliverance. In fact there is one particular case in Matthew 17:
14 And when they had come to the multitude, a man came to Him, kneeling down to Him and saying,
15 “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic and suffers severely; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water.
17 Then Jesus answered and said, --- “Bring him here to Me.”
18 And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour.

Notice: --- The father said he was ‘epileptic,’ (a common condition today).
For the spirit within would throw him ‘into the fire and the water’ to harm or destroy him.
--- And Jesus REBUKED THE DEMON, and the child was cured from that very hour.
This was a ‘deliverance’ by casting the demon out, and it resulted in the healing of the boy.

 

This is also reported by the medical doctor, Luke, in Luke 9:
37 Now it happened on the next day, when they had come down from the mountain, that a great multitude met Him.
38 Suddenly a man from the multitude cried out, saying, “Teacher, I implore You, look on my son, for he is my only child.
39 And behold, a spirit seizes him, and he suddenly cries out; it convulses him so that he foams at the mouth; and it departs from him with great difficulty, bruising him.
41 Then Jesus answered and said, --- “Bring your son here.”
42 And as he was still coming, the demon threw him down and convulsed him. Then Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, healed the child, and gave him back to his father.

Notice the different terms: --- ‘A spirit seizes him’ and convulses him (as one who is severely epileptic).
42 --- The ‘demon threw him down.’ --- Then Jesus rebuked the ‘unclean spirit,’ --- and healed the child.

There are different households of demonic spirits which we find in the NT.

However, this speaker covers some ways that the spirits constantly attack us. --- Since they are unseen we have very little defence, As it says in Surah 7:
16 He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way:
17 "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."
18 (God) said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee, - Hell will I fill with you all.
27 O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment (of righteousness) , to expose their shame: ---for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them
--- These are the forces of evil that work against us, and the speaker revealed how they deceive people, and cause conflict.

Placid

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The source book to read is the New Testament, and I can add more later, but I don’t want to go beyond what people can understand.--- (I will watch the video also.)

 

 

 Go ahead and add what you wanted to add. I meant other than the New Testament, but if there are certain verse you'd like to highlight other than the ones given that would explain in further detail the concept of demons in Christianity, go ahead.

Edited by salamtek

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Hi Salam,

Thank you for inviting me to share more.

I worked for some years at a ‘Rescue and Rehabilitation Mission’ where we dealt with alcoholics and drug addicts, plus unemployables, and others.
--- As well as observing the action of evil spirits in the various ones, I also experiencing attacks myself.
We were invading Satan’s territory and we were being attacked by the same unseen spirits that had ruined the lives of some we were trying to help.

I began to study the demonic realm and read the many healings and deliverances in the Gospels, and I found that much disease and sickness comes from the spirits who hinder us, but they can be cast out.

While the video mentions only the Jinn, --- that really covers the whole spectrum of the demonic.
The speaker said, “Humans can overcome the Jinn.” --- A strong personality that is well adjusted to life will not be open to the demonic, so is usually not affected. He said, “If a person is weak, or willing, then the Jinn can use them. --- If a person (with knowledge of the Book) says, ‘be gone,’ they have to go.”

I can give the names of the various households (some call them ‘altars’) of the demonic, but the warning is, that it is not to be taken lightly.
If a person experiences a sudden objection, or a sudden attack of some kind, as you read this, --- you might, yourself, be under attack.

Satan and the demons want to work unnoticed, behind the scenes, under the cover of darkness, and in devious ways where they are not detected.
When they are exposed, they can be expelled.’

All of the following names can be found in the New Testament, and are the names of the various households, and the names all have meanings, --- but it is not necessary to go into that.

Satan, Iblis, has the name --- Wormwood, --- in the Book of Revelation.
--- the three under Satan are, --- Appolyon, Abaddon, and Beelzebub.
Beelzebub is sometimes called ‘lord of the flies,’ (or ‘lord of flying things) as spirits travel through the air.
--- Under Beelzebub are --- Baalam, Belial, Legion, Demas, Korah and Balak.

These are ten households and they have at their command the following:
Demons, devils, witches, vipers, unclean spirits, foul spirits, evil spirits, and sometimes the last three ‘spirits’ are together and are identified as, ‘spirits of evil.’

Each of these can, either individually, or in numbers, or from more than one household at the same time, --- affect us in the following ways
They can: --- Obsess, oppress, occupy, control, influence, attack, obstruct.
In the case of diseases they can also infect or infest.

While there are more, this is the 'power base' of the 'kingdom of darkness,' --- from which we can be attacked, so you can see how defenseless we can be against an unseen enemy.

 

The Scripture says, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood (meaning against men), but against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." 

Enough for now.

Placid

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Sorry to disappoint. Go ahead and post. It might be worth a chuckle.

I don't much like the Christian concept either, but it's a bit late to go looking for a concept I do like.

Imho, the closest thing to jinn in the western world, I originally called "head friends", found mostly around those wrongly diagnosed with schizophrenia. There doesn't seem to be any inherent evil about them although they don't appear to be very helpful either.

I wouldn't have thought it any more than imaginary if one didn't stick around after a certain fellow left.

Head friends seem like hallucinations. Hidden folks though are distinct creature that you may recognize without them affecting you or sticking around you. They also have something against metals which is true for jin in Arabic mythology. They live in uninhibited places, they vary in shape and work. They are just hidden race which is the literal meaning of jin. They are contacted by magicians and sometimes accused when things get lost or when someone looses his mind.

What I don't like about the idea of inherently evil spirits is the concept of demiurge.

Other than that, the movies that were made based on them were creepy. Like a town with crows and change in weather etc etc. I mean the idea that evil can Control the environment. Also, the idea that the evil thing should be killed because it is inherently evil. Demonization of certain things.

Also there is this idea that because we should live with these evil things around so why not make deals with them ?

Tbh, I don't know why I don't like it but I don't.

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Hi Salam,

I can give the names of the various households (some call them ‘altars’) of the demonic, but the warning is, that it is not to be taken lightly.

If a person experiences a sudden objection, or a sudden attack of some kind, as you read this, --- you might, yourself, be under attack.

 

I'm not understanding your concept of alters, do you means metaphorical alters that act as a portal to the demonic or otherwise?

 

 

Satan and the demons want to work unnoticed, behind the scenes, under the cover of darkness, and in devious ways where they are not detected.

When they are exposed, they can be expelled.’

Satan not only wants to go unnoticed because he can work better but what is to happen if Satan would just (seemingly) disappear?

 

If Satan doesn't exist, why would a logical human think that God exists? Demonic possessions were frequent in early human history because now we think that they were all "epileptic" etc. to try to make sense of it, but why is it when exorcised, the symptoms stopped? Like I said, this is a huge reason why Christianity took off, as even the Bible itself evidences it. I think that's another reason Satan works quietly these days: he's not worshiped by a majority (thankfully, monotheism is at 4/7ths of the world), and since then, demonic occurrences aren't as common as they used to be, not to mention he found a better way to convince people.

 

I think with the advent of science, it's lessened the belief in God because everything can be "explained" by science, or at least attempted to be explained. I'm not saying "science is from Satan", but I'm saying human development constantly tries to pin the known to the unknown, and it's resulting in spiritual loss of the masses, which works to Satan's advantage.

 

Also, yes, the demons do all seem to have names, beelzebab=beezebul, which means "lord of the flies" but he's given that name because the god "Baal" and zebab connecting him to a pile of dung, and his followers who were like flies. Even in Arabic Baala means mistress, or landlady, so baal would mean lord, while zebab=dhebab in Arabic, which means flies.

Edited by salamtek

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Hi Chaotic,

Quote from Post 25:
Head friends seem like hallucinations. Hidden folks though are distinct creature that you may recognize without them affecting you or sticking around you.
They live in uninhibited places, they vary in shape and work. They are just hidden race which is the literal meaning of jin. They are contacted by magicians and sometimes accused when things get lost or when someone looses his mind.
What I don't like about the idea of inherently evil spirits is the concept of demiurge.
Also there is this idea that because we should live with these evil things around so why not make deals with them ?
Tbh, I don't know why I don't like it but I don't.

Response: --- Sorry, I couldn’t find the meaning of the word ‘demiurge,’ I wonder if you could explain that concept.

‘Head friends’ as SoP mentioned are spirits that can occupy or control a person to various degrees. --- they can frustrate the mind making them scitzophranic or mentally disturbed.

Your mention of ‘making deals with them’ is how you would invite them in.
All the movies and books written are influenced by the demonic element through people who lend themselves to the spirit world.
The evil spirits work to either frighten and traumatize people, --- or to appear friendly, so people will want to learn more about them and perhaps obtain extra knowledge, and becoms psychic.
--- The evil spirits can only inform or mimic the past. They don’t know the future, though fortune tellers make predictions that sometimes come to pass.
--- (If the psychics knew the future they would be winning the lotteries, would they not?)
--- But those who go to fortune tellers are already open to the demonic realm, so the evil spirits can work together to make things happen in a life that they have control over, --- so if a prediction seems to be right, they are drawn closer to Satan, rather than to God.
And it is as the speaker said, “While the people like to use the jinn (spirits) to help them, the spirits eventually take over the people, and destroy them.
They are all wicked, regardless of how they appear at first.


--- I remember when the old movie, ‘The Exorcist’ first came out, they said that they had ambulances on hand to take people to the hospital.
Now the movies are so extreme that people are desensitized to the actions of the real enemy, Satan.

I can tell you where these spirits come from but you probably won’t want to believe it, --- nevertheless it is written in the Quran, as I’ve already mentioned in Surah 7.
 

Placid

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Hi Salam,

Quote from Post 26:
I'm not understanding your concept of alters, do you means metaphorical alters that act as a portal to the demonic or otherwise?

Response: --- The term ‘altars’ is part of their stronghold from which they operate, like ‘stations,’ or ‘principalities,’ or ‘positions of evil.’
I call them ‘households’ and each household has a chief spirit.
--- With the Gadarene dmoniac, which we can look at later, --- When the evil spirits knew who Jesus was, Jesus aked, “What is your name?” --- And the spirit said, “Legion, for we are many.”

However, spirits can attack from any of the strongholds, so some people are occupied or attacked by different evil spirits at the same time.

And this is why Christianity was so effective, because Jesus had the power of the Holy Spirit, and could command the spirits to be cast out and down into hell.
This same Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2, and the Apostles continued to cast out the evil spirits. --- And Christians who have a Gift of discernment today can recognize evil spirits, and command them to go out of a person, --- ‘in Jesus’ name.’
--- But like the sons of Sciva, this has to be done with the Lord’s guidance.

Once the evil spirits are cast out and down into hell, the same ones can no more come back from there, but often others will try to take their place.
Evil spirits can leave on their own if a person is perhaps listening to, or reading the word of God, --- so the spirit wants to get out of there, before someone casts it out.

There is a case of a spirit, not being cast out, but going out like this in Luke 11:
24 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’
25 And when he comes, he finds it swept and put in order.
26 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first.”

--- If a spirit goes out because it can’t influence the body in which it dwells, it looks for another body in which to enter.
In this case, it finds none, so it returns to see if there is anything new occupying. If he finds it clean, but unoccupied, it goes and gets more spirits stronger than itself to occupy also.
--- There are people that go forward in a Church to be healed, and someone prays for them. --- Often it is an evil spirit, or a number of them, that are attacking him. --- So the spirits can be cast out, and the person is ‘healed,’ --- or ‘delivered.’ If they do not acknowledge the power and Sovereignty of God over the evil spirits, and respond to God’s love and guidance, they are still open to other evil spirits to enter them. --- Then they deny that they were healed. Often then the devil leads them farther astray. Their last state is worse than their first.

Placid

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Hi Chaotic,

Quote from Post 28:
Demiruge thins is
The idea that these spirits were not made by God but by another evil entity because God create only goodness. This is creepy idea on so many level.

Response: --- I had not heard of that before, and I suppose it is a reasonable conclusion to draw from the thought that ‘God created only goodness.’

However, since God is the First Cause and the Only God, --- all things came into ‘Being’ from Him.
The first creation of the universes, we don’t understand, and the many orders of good angels, created by His Perfection, and for His service, are not given to us to understand fully, --- but we do know about the order of Cherubim angels.

God created the Cherubim good as well, and gave them a will, or freedom of choice. --- The purpose was, so that they could show love and obedience to God in return for God’s love for them. --- But they also could act on their own will and reject God’s love.
These angels of light were called ‘shining stars,’ ‘sons of God,’ and ‘sons of the dawn.’

 

--- And the one who became the leader of them was called ‘The Lucifer,’ or had the position of the ‘President.’ --- However, having free will, he became proud, and began influencing others to follow him in wanting to establish his own kingdom, to be like God. --- It says in Isaiah 14:
12 For you have said in your heart:
13‘I will ascend into heaven, I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit

It says again of this one in Ezekiel 28:
11 “You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

God created everything good, --- and the Cherubim angels were all created good, but it says of this one, who was the ‘anointed Cherub,’:
--- YOU WERE PERFECT IN ALL YOUR WAYS UNTIL INIQUITY WAS FOUND IN YOU.

This was when the ‘President was removed from office’ and cast out in disgrace, --- and all the ones who followed him were cast out with him.
He became Satan, Iblis, the devil, the adversary to God.
--- These were all shining angels to begun with, but they lost their covering of goodness when they rebelled against God, and followed Satan.
--- They are ‘lost’ angels that serve Satan in the ‘kingdom of darkness,’ even as it says in Surah 7:
27 O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment (of righteousness), --- For he (Satan/Iblis) AND HIS TRIBE watch you from a position where ye cannot see them:

And these demonic spirits have been described as ‘disembodied spirits’ that look for a body in which to dwell. --- so they attack the weakest people in their weakest point and try to gain entrance to their body.
--- So the evil spirits work as a ‘spiritual underworld.’

But the speaker in the video said a strong person can ‘overcome the jinn’ or evil spirits, --- so again it is a case of ‘choice.’
--- The Scripture says, “Resist the devil and he will flee from you.” --- When the spirits are in danger of being detected, they can leave one body and look for another. --- As the speaker said, ‘Jinn can be any form.” --- They can also occupy the bodies of animals.
(Enough for now)

Placid

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Hi Chaotic,

Quote from Post 31:
Cherubim looks like djins. They have free will. They had entry to heavens. Some of them were as pious as angels. They are related to falling stars.

Response: --- Yes, they are the same type of evil spirits. They were created by God, so they were holy when created, and they had a free will until they chose who would be their master.
--- God gave them all things good, --- but those who sided with Satan in rebellion against God, were cast out with him.
There is an indication of how many were cast out in a vision given to the Apostle John, in the Book of Revelation, 12:
3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon
4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.

9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
--- (This happened after the deception of Adam and Eve, and they too were put out of the Garden and sent down to the earth.)

So there is the indication that 1/3 of the Cherubim were cast out with Satan.
--- They HAD access to heaven at one time, before the time of Adam and Eve, --- but their realm is now the earth, as the evil spirits of Satan/Iblis, --- and when they are detected and cast down into hell, the same ones cannot return.


I had mentioned ‘Satan and his tribe’ in Surah 7, so I want to show how well the Quran explains it in the next verses in Surah 7:
27 O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment (of righteousness), to expose their shame: for HE AND HIS TRIBE watch you from a position where ye cannot see them:
--- We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.

(This means that those without faith are susceptable to influence and false help from the evil spirits, or jinn.)

 

28 When they (the ones without faith) do aught that is shameful, they say: "We found our fathers doing so"; and "God commanded us thus": Say: "Nay, God never commands what is shameful: do ye say of God what ye know not?"

--- (When they say, “God commanded us thus,” --- they are deceived into thinking that to follow their fathers into sinful practices, was what God would lead them into.)

29 Say: "My Lord hath commanded justice; and that ye set your whole selves (to Him) at every time and place of prayer, and call upon Him, making your devotion sincere as in His sight: such as He created you in the beginning, so shall ye return."

(So this is addressed to those who think God would allow them to sin like their fathers did, and think they were right with God. --- ‘God commanded justice, or ‘rightness’ and that you set yourselves to God, and prayer, and make devotion sincere, --- as He created you to do.’)

30 Some He hath guided: Others have (by their choice) deserved the loss of their way; in that they took the evil ones, in preference to God, for their friends and protectors, and think that they receive guidance.

Some He (God) has guided --- but others took their own way, which includes guidance from the world and from evil influences, and they think they are guided by God.

--- As you say, some of them seem to be as ‘pious as angels,’ --- but their hidden agenda is always to deceive, and bring others down to their fallen level. --- Deceived people then become deceivers to others.

Placid

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Hi Chaotic,

Quote: No. They are not spirits. Nor inherently evil . If they are inherently evil then humans are inherently evil too since they have free will and they used it to disobey god.
Jins are beings made from fire.

Response: --- You are right, the jinn were made of fire, as was Satan/Iblis, as it says in Surah 7:
12 (Allah said), "What prevented thee from bowing down (to Adam) when I commanded thee?" He (Iblis) said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay."

I believe most heavenly bodies, and especially the stars are made of fire, --- and the Cherubim angels were called ‘shining stars,’ so I understand they were created from fire.
Satan/Iblis was the one, ‘cast out of heaven and down to the earth’ --- and all of 'his tribe' were cast out with him, --- so that was all of the demons, and evil spirits, to my understanding. --- Or are the jinn not evil spirits?

When you say the jinn are not spirits, are you saying they are physical and can be visible to man?

The speaker said, the jinn can appear in all forms --- “They dwell in forests, (in dark places), and in animals.” --- Would you say that a mad dog was a jinn, or was the dog occupied by a jinn that affected its mind?

The Speaker said that ‘the jinn could whisper in your ear,’ and can ‘occupy or possess a body.’
How do you explain them? --- Because they are secret and mystical, and don’t want to be exposed, you may understand them better than I do,
So that is what discussion is for.
However, it is good to stick to the material given by the knowledgable speaker from the video in posts 19 and 20, --- and to give your oun understanding, which will help us all.

I have said before that all the Cherubim were created holy, but given free will. --- They did not ‘inherit’evil --- but they chose to follow Satan in rebellion against God, so they chose Satan as their master. --- An their actions and purpose is to oppose God’s work on earth, is it not?

They may appear as good, but their deeds are motivated towards evil, are they not?
The same with Adam and Eve, they were not inherantly evil, but when they disobeyed God and believed Satan’s deception, they were put out of the Garden, and down to earth. --- So they produced offspring with a free will and motivated to be selfish and disobedient to authority, did they not?

The difference is that God always had a plan of salvation for those who turn to Him, and He still does. --- However, it is God’s plan, not man’s.
This is why He sent the Messiah, in our dispensation, --- But for the demons and evil spirits, there is no redemption. --- They made their choice, did they not?
--- Unless you have a different understanding and explanation?

Jesus said in Matthew 7:
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.”

Adam and Eve had to acknowledge their sin and ask forgiveness from God in Surah 7:
23 They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."
 

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