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In the Name of God بسم الله

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(Salam)

 

 

I am follower of Ayatullah Ali Sistani (hz). I read his (hz) fatwas on net about Zanjeer Zani (Hitting one's back with Knives hanging with chains) that one should avoid this because if a non-muslim sees this he does not understand it. I intend to do Zanjeer Zani this year. I live in Lahore/Pakistan where majority is muslim and even during the procession `majorty is Shia`. My question is that if it is not declared absolute haram by Ayatullah Sistani (hz), then i will like doing this year. 

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(salam)
(bismillah)

 

 

A recent question to al-Sistani about his position on Tatbir and the response was that anyone claiming that he believes it is haram or halal has not expressed his opinion.

 
 
 
أنا من مقلدي سماحة السيد علي السيستاني حفظه الله وفي الآونه الأخيره سمعنا أن سماحة السيد أصدر حكما بتحريم التطبير ، فهل هذا صحيح ؟
بسمه تعالى 
لقد أكد سماحة السيد دام ظله مراراً وتكراراً وأمام مجاميع مختلفة من الزوار أنه ـ رعاية لبعض المصالح ـ لا يبدي رأياً حول التطبير لا تحليلاً و لا تحريماً ، فما ينسب إليه دام ظله أحياناً من التحليل أو التحريم لا يعبّر عن موقفه.
مكتب السيد السيستاني في النجف الأشرف - أجوبة المسائل الشرعية
1 / ذي الحجة / 1434هـ
 
Question: I am a Muqallid of al-Sayyid `Ali al-Sistani, may Allah protect him and in his later time, We have heard that his eminence al-Sayyid has issued a ruling for the prohibition of Tatbir, is this correct (sahih)?
 
Answer:
In His, Most High, Name,
His Eminence al-Sayyid has time and time again emphasized in front of different gatherings of the Zuwaars (visitors),  he does not express his opinion about Tatbir, not for its permissibility, nor for its prohibition, so whoever attributes to him ( دام ظله) at times from its permissibility or its prohibition, do not express his viewpoint
 
Office of al-Sayyid al-Sistani in Najaf al-Ashraf - Answer to Shari'ah Questions
1st of Dhu'l Hijjah, 1434

 

Source: http://www.alalbayt.org.lb/Web/FAQ.aspx?fid=288&language=ar&id=1&letter=

 

 

Haashim al-Haashimi, one of the most prominent students of al-Sistani, who has written a book called Ikhtilaaf al-Hadeeth which is notes from the dars al-Khaarij lectures of al-Sistani. He was asked the view of al-Sistani, he says the lack of fatwa from him regarding tatbir, is not proof on his view of it being impermissible(1). He also says that since there is lack of fatwa from him, then it is necessary for the muqallid to take it as Ihtiyaat al-Waajib (2) which means to see other scholars viewpoints such as al-Wahid al-Khurasani  who says that it ismustahabb to do it(3). Hashim al-Haashimi answer has confirmed the above answer that there is no viewpoint from al-Sistani regarding Tatbir.

 

 

(1) أما عدم إصدار الفتوى بالجواز فلا يكون دليلا على التحريم لأن التحريم عبارة عن فتوى بعدم الجواز، ولا يمكن أن يكون عدم الإفتاء دليلا على الفتوى بعدم الجواز

(2)  ومع عدم صدور تلك الفتوى فاللازم على مقلده الاحتياط بالاجتناب

(3) ومن الواضح أن كبار الفقهاء الأحياء كالشيخ الوحيد الخراساني يقولون باستحباب التطبير أو جوازه

 

Source: http://webcache.goog...n&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

 

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri

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Neither Syed Sistani nor his teacher Syed Al-Khoei prohibit Tatbir, people have wrongly spread these opinions about them. Syed Sistani has given no fatwa on it, as Nader said above. I have a friend who went to Najaf for a half a year earlier this year and met the Syed on a number of occasions and on one of these occasions asked him this question and the Syed responded he has no fatwa prohibiting or permitting it. People are unfortunately spreading made up fatwas about his and a number of other Ayatullah's views.

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We find NO hadith in the Al Kafi, Man la yahduruhu al faqih, Tahdhib ul ahkam, Al Istibsar, Wasael al shia & Bihar ul Anwar permitting this act. If not haram than probably an innovation & innovation leads to more innovations justifying the latter on the basis of former. In shia Islam any new good practice introduced that does not contradict the Qur'an or hadith is permissible. 

 

 

And He says: “And do not throw yourselves into destruction with your own hands.” [surah Al-Baqarah: 195]

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Al-Kafi Vol 3


 


H 4631, Ch. 80, h 1


A number of our people have narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn abu Nasr and al-Hassan ibn Ali all from abu Jamilah from Jabir from abu Ja‘far, who has said the following:


 


“Once I asked abu Ja‘far, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, ‘What is impatience and outcry?’ He replied, ‘An intense


form of impatience is to cry aloud expressing certain words as al-Wayl or howling or beating of the


face or chest or pulling out of hairs from the forehead. Whoever organizes a lamentation ceremony


has abandoned patience. If one exercises patience and acknowledges the reality of death saying, “To


Allah we belong and to Him we return,” praises and thanks Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most


Glorious, he has agreed with the decision of Allah. His reward becomes due with Allah, otherwise,


Allah’s system of the working of things prevails, but he is condemned and Allah turns his efforts void


and fruitless.’” 


 


 


H 4634, Ch. 80, h 4


Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father, from al-Nawfaliy from al-Sakuniy who has said the following:


 


“Abu ‘Abd Allah, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, has said that the Messenger of Allah has said, ‘If a Muslim strikes


his hand against his thigh due to suffering and sorrow, it causes his deeds to become void and


fruitless.’”


 


 


H 4638, Ch. 80, h 8


A number of our people have narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from al-Hassan ibn Ali from Ali ibn ‘Uqbah from the woman of al-Hassanal-Sayqal who has said the following:


 


“Abu ‘Abd Allah, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, has said that it is not advisable to cry loudly for a deceased or


teardown one’s clothes.”


 


 


H 4639, Ch. 80, h 9


Sahl has narrated from Ali ibn Hassa’n from Musa ibn Bakr who has said the following:


 


“Abu al-Hassan the 1st, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, has said, ‘A man’s striking his hand on his thigh, when


suffering a misfortune, causes suspension of his rewards for his suffering.’”

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Al-Kafi Vol 3

 

H 4631, Ch. 80, h 1

A number of our people have narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn abu Nasr and al-Hassan ibn Ali all from abu Jamilah from Jabir from abu Ja‘far, who has said the following:

 

“Once I asked abu Ja‘far, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, ‘What is impatience and outcry?’ He replied, ‘An intense

form of impatience is to cry aloud expressing certain words as al-Wayl or howling or beating of the

face or chest or pulling out of hairs from the forehead. Whoever organizes a lamentation ceremony

has abandoned patience. If one exercises patience and acknowledges the reality of death saying, “To

Allah we belong and to Him we return,” praises and thanks Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most

Glorious, he has agreed with the decision of Allah. His reward becomes due with Allah, otherwise,

Allah’s system of the working of things prevails, but he is condemned and Allah turns his efforts void

and fruitless.’” 

 

 

H 4634, Ch. 80, h 4

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father, from al-Nawfaliy from al-Sakuniy who has said the following:

 

“Abu ‘Abd Allah, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, has said that the Messenger of Allah has said, ‘If a Muslim strikes

his hand against his thigh due to suffering and sorrow, it causes his deeds to become void and

fruitless.’”

 

 

H 4638, Ch. 80, h 8

A number of our people have narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from al-Hassan ibn Ali from Ali ibn ‘Uqbah from the woman of al-Hassanal-Sayqal who has said the following:

 

“Abu ‘Abd Allah, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, has said that it is not advisable to cry loudly for a deceased or

teardown one’s clothes.”

 

 

H 4639, Ch. 80, h 9

Sahl has narrated from Ali ibn Hassa’n from Musa ibn Bakr who has said the following:

 

“Abu al-Hassan the 1st, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, has said, ‘A man’s striking his hand on his thigh, when

suffering a misfortune, causes suspension of his rewards for his suffering.’”

 

 

 

I'm afraid the whole purpose of matam becomes controversial if these hadith are found authentic.

 

 

I would like to ask the rijalists to respond on this issue & comment on the chain of narrators of these ahadith.

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(salam)
(bismillah)

 

All four narrations mentioned above are not authentic (Red = Weak narrator, Green = Majhul), but these are not the only ones regarding this issue. 

 

 

A number of our people have narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn abu Nasr and al-Hassan ibn Ali all from abu Jamilah from Jabir from abu Ja‘far, who has said the following:

 

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father, from al-Nawfaliy from al-Sakuniy who has said the following:

 

A number of our people have narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from al-Hassan ibn Ali from Ali ibn ‘Uqbah from the woman of al-Hassanal-Sayqal who has said the following:

 

Sahl has narrated from Ali ibn Hassa’n from Musa ibn Bakr who has said the following:

 

 

(salam)

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(salam)

(bismillah)

 

All four narrations mentioned above are not authentic (Red = Weak narrator, Green = Majhul), but these are not the only ones regarding this issue. 

 

 

 

 

Besides  al Najashi who else considers Sahl ibn ziyad  weak?

Edited by Invoker

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(salam)
(bismillah)

 

do you have hadiths concerning this, that would be considered authentic according to you?

I am sure if I were to do a little bit of digging I would find something authentic according to my standards, but that isn't the point. What do we always lament about? Mutawaatir, right? As I have said, these aren't the only narrations regarding this, just the multitude of narrations from various narrators should be enough to quell our problems with the hadith.

 

Besides  al Najashi who else considers Sahl ibn ziyad  weak?

The topic of Sahl b. Ziyad is another topic in it of itself. The Majority opinion is that he is Weak. 

 

 

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri

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(salam)

(bismillah)

 

I am sure if I were to do a little bit of digging I would find something authentic according to my standards, but that isn't the point. What do we always lament about? Mutawaatir, right? As I have said, these aren't the only narrations regarding this, just the multitude of narrations from various narrators should be enough to quell our problems with the hadith.

 

 

(salam)

 

(wasalam)

 

(bismillah) 

 

im really no hadith expert (what is mutawatir?), and i found these by chance as i was reading in al-kafi, so im sure there are more on this. but i'd be very grateful if someday somebody finds unanimously agreed upon ahadeeth concerning this issue. This would be good to pre-empt the whole ashura fitna debates that take place .. 

 

for the past few years i have asked many people online to find me evidence from the blessed hadiths to support the self beating.

 

the strongest evidence i could find was this verse in the quran, where sayida sara hits herself:

 

 

And his wife approached with a cry [of alarm] and struck her face and said, "[i am] a barren old woman!" 51:29

 

 

however, this is not in relation to mourning for somebody's death, and no tools used of course, nor blood.

 

 

anyway, would be good to gather all pro and anti hadiths on this .. the authentic ones ..

 

jazak Allah Khair,

 

fi amanilah

 

(wasalam)

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