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In the Name of God بسم الله

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  • Veteran Member
Posted

DO NOT SAY that, you may disagree with tatbir, but don't go attack the holy ritual

 

 

can you define 'holy' since it appears that the basis of you blood letting is a dodgy narration out of step most shia narrations

 

TRANSLATION OF Q/A PAPER IN URDU - handed over by Aytullah Bashir Najafi office in dec 07

Q1) is azadari wajib or mustahab?

A1) If there is a chance that shiaism will be wiped out by not doing azadari, in such cases azadari becomes wajib, otherwise it is a source of great recompense.

Q2) what is the importance of azadari?

A2) Azadari includes all works whether action or speech which are mubah (ie not haram). It should be done with the aim of spreading word about the oppression of Imam Hussein Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã & other ahl Bayt(a) & the humiliation of their enemies. We have been ordered to do azadari, it brings great recompense.

Q3) During azadari of Imam Hussein Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, is it allowed to kiss the alam, taziah, zuljinah?

A3) It is not a problem to kiss, it is allowed. But to believe that an infallible (masoom) has ordered to kiss is not allowed.

Q4) what do you say to the wearing of chains on the wrists & the ankles.

A4) If one wears so as not to forget the imprisonment of his oppressed & innocent Imam Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, it is allowed. But to do so thinking it to be the sunnat of the Imam is not allowed. No masoom has ever ordered such a thing.

Q5) Is it allowed to ‘de-shirt’ oneself on the streets to do matam, where women are also present? A5) It is not a problem, women should not go to such places. Q6) What is your opinion about zanjeer & kama’

A6) If zanjeer & kama’ are done with the intention of spreading word about the oppression to which Imam Hussein Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã was subjected, not only is it allowed but brings great recompense. However, if before doing such matam, one is satisfied (itminan) that he will die or some organ of his body will become useless, it is not allowed. Similarly, it is not allowed in those areas where people, due to ignorance, will turn away from Islam or will feel a revulsion towards Islam.

Q7) While mourning for Imam Hussein Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã is it allowed to hit with a dagger or knife, which results in loss of a lot of blood. Is this a source of any recompense? While doing so, if a person dies, what is your opinion regarding this?

A7) If matam is done this way to spread word about the oppression of Imam Hussein Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, then it is a source of great recompense. If one dies during this, he will be included amongst the helpers of Imam Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã & the ahl bayt Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã But if he knows before doing such matam that he will die or some part of his body will become useless, it is not allowed. Similarly, do not do such matam in places where ignorant people will turn away from Islam.

Q) During majalis of Imam Hussein Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã some orators recite traditions about which we do not know whether they are true or fabricated, while others are definitely fabricated. Is it allowed to attend such majalis?

A) Bismihi Ta’ala. It is a major sin to recite & hear(while declaring them to be true) those traditions about which one is sure that they are fabricated. If attending such a majlis amounts to the acceptance & spreading the fame of such a false tradition reciter, it not allowed to attend such a majlis. Let it be clear that attributing false traditions to the Aimma violated their rights. It is the duty of every mo’min to refrain from such acts. Wallaho alam

 

 

http://www.islamic-laws.com/azadari.htm

 

 

and this is the basis for not contacting ayatullah Sistani direct ?. Do you even listen to yourself

  • Advanced Member
Posted

can you define 'holy' since it appears that the basis of you blood letting is a dodgy narration out of step most shia narrations

and this is the basis for not contacting ayatullah Sistani direct ?. Do you even listen to yourself

Can u define holy in terms of the Quran.

  • Advanced Member
Posted

You used the term not me . So you define it and then explain how basing blood letting on a dodgy narration makes it 'holy'

So mashallah all of our old respected schoalrs including Al-Maglisi (ra) is now wrong? All the millions and miollions of people doing it worldwide are wrong? And only you are right? Dude, look at what ur saying

Posted

There is no such thing is "doing it in a secret area". Sunni's sometimes go to observe what shia's do. Non-muslims can see zajeer acts performed world-wide over the internet. Unless you do it a lone in your bathroom, people have ways of finding out and spreading your acts.

 

Zanjeer/Tatbir are amongst the acts which have cause the face of shi'ism to be ridiculed and are one of the most powerful propaganda tools against us, on top of the fact it is in our fitrah to be repulsed by blood/flagellation, not even considering the self harm due to transmission of blood borne diseases, infections, possible nerve damadge/anatomical damage however 'safe' you try to do it.

 

May Allah swt rid the school of ahlulbayt a.s of this act which burns and chars their teachings and image.

  • Advanced Member
Posted

So mashallah all of our old respected schoalrs including Al-Maglisi (ra) is now wrong? All the millions and miollions of people doing it worldwide are wrong? And only you are right? Dude, look at what ur saying

 

Allamah al-Majlisi رحمه الله claimed nothing of the sort. If you believe he did then please quote the relevant information. Don't just make claims out of nothing.

  • Veteran Member
Posted

So mashallah all of our old respected schoalrs including Al-Maglisi (ra) is now wrong? All the millions and miollions of people doing it worldwide are wrong? And only you are right? Dude, look at what ur saying

Well lets see IF Majlisi had said the narration is correct (and he didnt) then he would be saying all the other scholars are liars since they reported veils snatched on the 10th night. Bare headed parades through the market place and saddless camels. Maybe you should THINK what you are saying

 

So explain that 

  • Veteran Member
Posted (edited)

(salam)

 

Haashim al-Haashimi, one of the most prominent students of al-Sistani, who has written a book called Ikhtilaaf al-Hadeeth which is notes from the dars al-Khaarij lectures of al-Sistani. He was asked the view of al-Sistani, he says the lack of fatwa from him regarding tatbir, is not proof on his view of it being impermissible(1). He also says that since there is lack of fatwa from him, then it is necessary for the muqallid to take it as Ihtiyaat al-Waajib (2) which means to see other scholars viewpoints such as al-Wahid al-Khurasani  who says that it ismustahabb to do it(3). Hashim al-Haashimi answer has confirmed the above answer that there is no viewpoint from al-Sistani regarding Tatbir.

 

 

(1) أما عدم إصدار الفتوى بالجواز فلا يكون دليلا على التحريم لأن التحريم عبارة عن فتوى بعدم الجواز، ولا يمكن أن يكون عدم الإفتاء دليلا على الفتوى بعدم الجواز

(2)  ومع عدم صدور تلك الفتوى فاللازم على مقلده الاحتياط بالاجتناب

(3) ومن الواضح أن كبار الفقهاء الأحياء كالشيخ الوحيد الخراساني يقولون باستحباب التطبير أو جوازه

 

Source: http://webcache.goog...n&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

 

Sorry I know this is an old post, but I just came across this. In regards to point number 2, you wrote: He also says that since there is lack of fatwa from him, then it is necessary for the muqallid to take it as Ihtiyaat al-Waajib.

 

However the Arabic say:  ومع عدم صدور تلك الفتوى فاللازم على مقلده الاحتياط بالاجتناب

 

Ihtiyat Bil-Ijtinab - which would mean that precaution is to stay away from it. Perhaps in some cases the result would be the same (i.e. ihtiyat wajib to refrain from doing it), but I personally got confused when I read the English and thought I would point this out just in case.

 

Also, who is the قائل - I have a feeling it is not Syed Hashmi expressing his opinion (because of the قد before that - unless it is some Arabic phrase authors use to imply themselves, I am not familiar with), rather what I understand he is saying is that some people (probably referring to the wakeel) may say that the lack of fatwa means that those who want to perform tatbeer are in need for a fatwa for its permissibility, in case his actual opinion is that it is prohibited; therefore with the lack of a fatwa from him, it is safer (precautionary) to stay away from performing it.

 

وقد يقول قائل: بما أن السيد السيستاني لم تصدر منه الفتوى فمن يريد التطبير فإنه يحتاج إلى فتوى بالجواز من سماحته إذ يحتمل أن يكون رأيه هو الحرمة، ومع عدم صدور تلك الفتوى فاللازم على مقلده الاحتياط بالاجتناب، ولعل إيصال مقلدي السيد السيستاني إلى هذه النتيجة من عدم وجود طريق شرعي لجواز الفعل هو ما كان يريده البعض من عبارة: (لم يجوز ولم يحرم) وما يريده كثيرون ممن لا يقلد السيد السيستاني لمنع مقلدي السيد السيستاني من ممارسة التطبير انتصارا لرأي من يرجعون إليه ممن ينهى عن التطبير.

 

Maybe someone can clarify.

 

Source

 

Wassalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain
  • Veteran Member
Posted

Still waiting for a reply from the blood letters who claim that the narration of Hz Bibi Zainab striking her head.

Just to summarise since it appears to mystified some blood letters as to what I am saying.

There is only one narration of Hz Bibi Zainab string her head. All reports lead back to that single narration.

When you read the narration in full you will see that it purports to be from the time the captives were first bought to Kufa and paraded through the streets.

If you read the narration in full you will see that Hz Bibi Zainab is veiled and Hz Bibi Kulthum is in a veiled camel howdah.

So my point is if you accept this single narration as correct then you must as a matter of course discount all the other narrations of the women folk having their veils snatched and paraded bare headed and mounted on saddle less camels.

So my challenge to al you blood letters who frequently quote this narration is please explain!!

Simple really

  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 years later...
  • Advanced Member
Posted
On 07/10/2014 at 4:54 PM, peace seeker II said:

Al-Kafi Vol 3

 

 

 

 

H 4631, Ch. 80, h 1

 

 

A number of our people have narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn abu Nasr and al-Hassan ibn Ali all from abu Jamilah from Jabir from abu Ja‘far, who has said the following:

 

 

 

 

 

“Once I asked abu Ja‘far, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, ‘What is impatience and outcry?’ He replied, ‘An intense

 

 

form of impatience is to cry aloud expressing certain words as al-Wayl or howling or beating of the

 

 

face or chest or pulling out of hairs from the forehead. Whoever organizes a lamentation ceremony

 

 

has abandoned patience. If one exercises patience and acknowledges the reality of death saying, “To

 

 

Allah we belong and to Him we return,” praises and thanks Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most

 

 

Glorious, he has agreed with the decision of Allah. His reward becomes due with Allah, otherwise,

 

 

Allah’s system of the working of things prevails, but he is condemned and Allah turns his efforts void

 

 

and fruitless.’” 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

H 4634, Ch. 80, h 4

 

 

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father, from al-Nawfaliy from al-Sakuniy who has said the following:

 

 

 

 

 

“Abu ‘Abd Allah, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, has said that the Messenger of Allah has said, ‘If a Muslim strikes

 

 

his hand against his thigh due to suffering and sorrow, it causes his deeds to become void and

 

 

fruitless.’”

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

H 4638, Ch. 80, h 8

 

 

A number of our people have narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from al-Hassan ibn Ali from Ali ibn ‘Uqbah from the woman of al-Hassanal-Sayqal who has said the following:

 

 

 

 

 

“Abu ‘Abd Allah, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, has said that it is not advisable to cry loudly for a deceased or

 

 

teardown one’s clothes.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

H 4639, Ch. 80, h 9

 

 

Sahl has narrated from Ali ibn Hassa’n from Musa ibn Bakr who has said the following:

 

 

 

 

 

“Abu al-Hassan the 1st, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, has said, ‘A man’s striking his hand on his thigh, when

 

 

suffering a misfortune, causes suspension of his rewards for his suffering.’”

 

Instead we should spread a message against tyranny, give to the oppressed and condemn the oppressors.

  • 1 year later...
  • 4 years later...
  • Advanced Member
Posted

So sayid sistani did not give fatwa regarding matam, zanjeer etc?

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
On 11/19/2014 at 7:44 PM, guest050817 said:

Zanjeer/Tatbir are amongst the acts which have cause the face of shi'ism to be ridiculed and are one of the most powerful propaganda tools against us, on top of the fact it is in our fitrah to be repulsed by blood/flagellation, not even considering the self harm due to transmission of blood borne diseases, infections, possible nerve damadge/anatomical damage however 'safe' you try to do it.

Agree from medical point of view in light of Infections, blood droplet sprays , deep cuts into deep fascia muscular layers of the body, make one prone to deadly necrotizing fasciitis ...not the best idea.

But we Shia are often unaware that blood letting, self flaggellation with chains and whips, puncture of body with sharp mettalic implements, and actual live crucifixion with huge nails thru the hands and feet is seen and practiced by catholics and other Christian Denominations,  Hindus and Buddhist and Shaolin monks.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/easter-crucifixion-ritual-philippines-jesus-christ-nailed-cross-a8877916.html%3famp

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-flagellation#:~:text=In Christianity%2C self-flagellation is,or her focus to God.

Edited by Hasani Samnani
  • Advanced Member
Posted
3 hours ago, Diaz said:

So sayid sistani did not give fatwa regarding matam, zanjeer etc?

Salam

Quote

Grand Ayatullah Sistani

Question:
I want to know the status of beating our backs with knives (Zanjeer) on the day of Ashura? What is it’s status in our Fiqh?

Answer:
The philosophy of mourning during ‘Ashura’, is to respect the symbols of religion and remember the suffering of Imam Hussain, his companions, and his uprising to defend Islam and prevent the destruction of the religion by the Bani Umayyad dynasty. These rites must be done in such a way that in addition to serving that purpose, it draws the attention of others to these lofty goals. So those actions which are not understandable and cause misunderstandings and contempt for the religion must be avoided.
Click here to see a stamped fatwa with a similar reply.

The following question was sent to the liaison office of Ayatullah Sistani in London (najaf.org):

Question:
“Please tell me if cutting yourself in muharram for Imam Husayn (a) is haraam or not.”

Answer:
“Reviving Hussaini traditions is Mustahab but one is not allowed to Harm the body or the noble reputation of the Faith.”

The obligation of following the Hakim in issues such as this one. The Hakim in our era is Ayatullah Khamenei:

Question:
“Are the ahkam wila’iya (orders of the juristic authority) of the Wali Faqih implemented upon all the Muslims globally or is it specific to the area of his authority?”

Answer:
“The Hukm of the Mujtahid who fulfilled the criteria and is accepted by the general masses, is implemented without any bounds in what is related to ordaining society unless his mistake becomes apparent and was contrary to what is certainly proven from the Qur’an and Sunnah.” Fatwa number 134

“It is not permissible to abrogate/break the hukm (order/command/rule) of the (religious) governor/ruler (hakim), who meets all the necessary criterion (for governance/ruling), even by another mujtahid, except if it (the hukm) is contrary to what has been proven, with certainty, by the Qur’an and Sunnah.”

Minhaj al-Saleheen V. 1 page 15

http://tatbir.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/sistani.jpg

http://tatbir.org/?page_id=98

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