Zanjeer Zani Absolute Haram Or Conditionally Haram

[Aabiss_Shakari]

(Salam)

 

 

I am follower of Ayatullah Ali Sistani (hz). I read his (hz) fatwas on net about Zanjeer Zani (Hitting one's back with Knives hanging with chains) that one should avoid this because if a non-muslim sees this he does not understand it. I intend to do Zanjeer Zani this year. I live in Lahore/Pakistan where majority is muslim and even during the procession `majorty is Shia`. My question is that if it is not declared absolute haram by Ayatullah Sistani (hz), then i will like doing this year. 

[notme]

Conditionally haram, permitted so long as no self-harm and no damage to public perception of Islam. I think intention matters too.

[narsis]

Bismillah.

 

Salaam.

 

I found nothing in his official site and other sites. Please contact his office.

 

With Duas.

 

Narsis.

[Khalilallah]

why would you do this please come to your senses. It is pointless to make yourself bleed. A simple slap is sufficient.

[Nader Zaveri]

(salam)
(bismillah)

 

 

A recent question to al-Sistani about his position on Tatbir and the response was that anyone claiming that he believes it is haram or halal has not expressed his opinion.

 

 

 

أنا من مقلدي سماحة السيد علي السيستاني حفظه الله وفي الآونه الأخيره سمعنا أن سماحة السيد أصدر حكما بتحريم التطبير ، فهل هذا صحيح ؟

بسمه تعالى 

لقد أكد سماحة السيد دام ظله مراراً وتكراراً وأمام مجاميع مختلفة من الزوار أنه ـ رعاية لبعض المصالح ـ لا يبدي رأياً حول التطبير لا تحليلاً و لا تحريماً ، فما ينسب إليه دام ظله أحياناً من التحليل أو التحريم لا يعبّر عن موقفه.

مكتب السيد السيستاني في النجف الأشرف - أجوبة المسائل الشرعية

1 / ذي الحجة / 1434هـ

 

Question: I am a Muqallid of al-Sayyid `Ali al-Sistani, may Allah protect him and in his later time, We have heard that his eminence al-Sayyid has issued a ruling for the prohibition of Tatbir, is this correct (sahih)?

 

Answer:

In His, Most High, Name,

His Eminence al-Sayyid has time and time again emphasized in front of different gatherings of the Zuwaars (visitors),  he does not express his opinion about Tatbir, not for its permissibility, nor for its prohibition, so whoever attributes to him ( دام ظله) at times from its permissibility or its prohibition, do not express his viewpoint

 

Office of al-Sayyid al-Sistani in Najaf al-Ashraf - Answer to Shari'ah Questions

1st of Dhu'l Hijjah, 1434

 

Source: http://www.alalbayt.org.lb/Web/FAQ.aspx?fid=288&language=ar&id=1&letter=

 

 

Haashim al-Haashimi, one of the most prominent students of al-Sistani, who has written a book called Ikhtilaaf al-Hadeeth which is notes from the dars al-Khaarij lectures of al-Sistani. He was asked the view of al-Sistani, he says the lack of fatwa from him regarding tatbir, is not proof on his view of it being impermissible(1). He also says that since there is lack of fatwa from him, then it is necessary for the muqallid to take it as Ihtiyaat al-Waajib (2) which means to see other scholars viewpoints such as al-Wahid al-Khurasani  who says that it ismustahabb to do it(3). Hashim al-Haashimi answer has confirmed the above answer that there is no viewpoint from al-Sistani regarding Tatbir.

 

 

(1) أما عدم إصدار الفتوى بالجواز فلا يكون دليلا على التحريم لأن التحريم عبارة عن فتوى بعدم الجواز، ولا يمكن أن يكون عدم الإفتاء دليلا على الفتوى بعدم الجواز

(2)  ومع عدم صدور تلك الفتوى فاللازم على مقلده الاحتياط بالاجتناب

(3) ومن الواضح أن كبار الفقهاء الأحياء كالشيخ الوحيد الخراساني يقولون باستحباب التطبير أو جوازه

 

Source: http://webcache.goog...n&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

 

(salam)

Edited October 7, 2014 by Nader Zaveri

[Ibn Al-Ja'abi]

Neither Syed Sistani nor his teacher Syed Al-Khoei prohibit Tatbir, people have wrongly spread these opinions about them. Syed Sistani has given no fatwa on it, as Nader said above. I have a friend who went to Najaf for a half a year earlier this year and met the Syed on a number of occasions and on one of these occasions asked him this question and the Syed responded he has no fatwa prohibiting or permitting it. People are unfortunately spreading made up fatwas about his and a number of other Ayatullah's views.

[Invoker]

We find NO hadith in the Al Kafi, Man la yahduruhu al faqih, Tahdhib ul ahkam, Al Istibsar, Wasael al shia & Bihar ul Anwar permitting this act. If not haram than probably an innovation & innovation leads to more innovations justifying the latter on the basis of former. In shia Islam any new good practice introduced that does not contradict the Qur'an or hadith is permissible. 

 

 

And He says: “And do not throw yourselves into destruction with your own hands.” [surah Al-Baqarah: 195]

[peace seeker II]

Al-Kafi Vol 3

 

H 4631, Ch. 80, h 1

A number of our people have narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn abu Nasr and al-Hassan ibn Ali all from abu Jamilah from Jabir from abu Ja‘far, who has said the following:

 

“Once I asked abu Ja‘far, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, ‘What is impatience and outcry?’ He replied, ‘An intense

form of impatience is to cry aloud expressing certain words as al-Wayl or howling or beating of the

face or chest or pulling out of hairs from the forehead. Whoever organizes a lamentation ceremony

has abandoned patience. If one exercises patience and acknowledges the reality of death saying, “To

Allah we belong and to Him we return,” praises and thanks Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most

Glorious, he has agreed with the decision of Allah. His reward becomes due with Allah, otherwise,

Allah’s system of the working of things prevails, but he is condemned and Allah turns his efforts void

and fruitless.’” 

 

 

H 4634, Ch. 80, h 4

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father, from al-Nawfaliy from al-Sakuniy who has said the following:

 

“Abu ‘Abd Allah, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, has said that the Messenger of Allah has said, ‘If a Muslim strikes

his hand against his thigh due to suffering and sorrow, it causes his deeds to become void and

fruitless.’”

 

 

H 4638, Ch. 80, h 8

A number of our people have narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from al-Hassan ibn Ali from Ali ibn ‘Uqbah from the woman of al-Hassanal-Sayqal who has said the following:

 

“Abu ‘Abd Allah, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, has said that it is not advisable to cry loudly for a deceased or

teardown one’s clothes.”

 

 

H 4639, Ch. 80, h 9

Sahl has narrated from Ali ibn Hassa’n from Musa ibn Bakr who has said the following:

 

“Abu al-Hassan the 1st, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, has said, ‘A man’s striking his hand on his thigh, when

suffering a misfortune, causes suspension of his rewards for his suffering.’”

[Invoker]

 

Al-Kafi Vol 3

 

H 4631, Ch. 80, h 1

A number of our people have narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn abu Nasr and al-Hassan ibn Ali all from abu Jamilah from Jabir from abu Ja‘far, who has said the following:

 

“Once I asked abu Ja‘far, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, ‘What is impatience and outcry?’ He replied, ‘An intense

form of impatience is to cry aloud expressing certain words as al-Wayl or howling or beating of the

face or chest or pulling out of hairs from the forehead. Whoever organizes a lamentation ceremony

has abandoned patience. If one exercises patience and acknowledges the reality of death saying, “To

Allah we belong and to Him we return,” praises and thanks Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most

Glorious, he has agreed with the decision of Allah. His reward becomes due with Allah, otherwise,

Allah’s system of the working of things prevails, but he is condemned and Allah turns his efforts void

and fruitless.’” 

 

 

H 4634, Ch. 80, h 4

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father, from al-Nawfaliy from al-Sakuniy who has said the following:

 

“Abu ‘Abd Allah, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, has said that the Messenger of Allah has said, ‘If a Muslim strikes

his hand against his thigh due to suffering and sorrow, it causes his deeds to become void and

fruitless.’”

 

 

H 4638, Ch. 80, h 8

A number of our people have narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from al-Hassan ibn Ali from Ali ibn ‘Uqbah from the woman of al-Hassanal-Sayqal who has said the following:

 

“Abu ‘Abd Allah, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, has said that it is not advisable to cry loudly for a deceased or

teardown one’s clothes.”

 

 

H 4639, Ch. 80, h 9

Sahl has narrated from Ali ibn Hassa’n from Musa ibn Bakr who has said the following:

 

“Abu al-Hassan the 1st, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, has said, ‘A man’s striking his hand on his thigh, when

suffering a misfortune, causes suspension of his rewards for his suffering.’”

 

 

 

I'm afraid the whole purpose of matam becomes controversial if these hadith are found authentic.

 

 

I would like to ask the rijalists to respond on this issue & comment on the chain of narrators of these ahadith.

[peace seeker II]

i asked the question here .. 

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235025080-hadiths-regarding-graves-and-self-beating/

[Nader Zaveri]

(salam)
(bismillah)

 

All four narrations mentioned above are not authentic (Red = Weak narrator, Green = Majhul), but these are not the only ones regarding this issue. 

 

 

A number of our people have narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn abu Nasr and al-Hassan ibn Ali all from abu Jamilah from Jabir from abu Ja‘far, who has said the following:

 

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father, from al-Nawfaliy from al-Sakuniy who has said the following:

 

A number of our people have narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from al-Hassan ibn Ali from Ali ibn ‘Uqbah from the woman of al-Hassanal-Sayqal who has said the following:

 

Sahl has narrated from Ali ibn Hassa’n from Musa ibn Bakr who has said the following:

 

 

(salam)

[peace seeker II]

(wasalam)

 

(bismillah) 

 

do you have hadiths concerning this, that would be considered authentic according to you?

 

(wasalam)

[Invoker]

(salam)

(bismillah)

 

All four narrations mentioned above are not authentic (Red = Weak narrator, Green = Majhul), but these are not the only ones regarding this issue. 

 

 

 

 

Besides  al Najashi who else considers Sahl ibn ziyad  weak?

Edited October 7, 2014 by Invoker

[Nader Zaveri]

(salam)
(bismillah)

 

do you have hadiths concerning this, that would be considered authentic according to you?

I am sure if I were to do a little bit of digging I would find something authentic according to my standards, but that isn't the point. What do we always lament about? Mutawaatir, right? As I have said, these aren't the only narrations regarding this, just the multitude of narrations from various narrators should be enough to quell our problems with the hadith.

 

Besides  al Najashi who else considers Sahl ibn ziyad  weak?

The topic of Sahl b. Ziyad is another topic in it of itself. The Majority opinion is that he is Weak. 

 

 

(salam)

Edited October 7, 2014 by Nader Zaveri

[peace seeker II]

(salam)

(bismillah)

 

I am sure if I were to do a little bit of digging I would find something authentic according to my standards, but that isn't the point. What do we always lament about? Mutawaatir, right? As I have said, these aren't the only narrations regarding this, just the multitude of narrations from various narrators should be enough to quell our problems with the hadith.

 

 

(salam)

 

(wasalam)

 

(bismillah) 

 

im really no hadith expert (what is mutawatir?), and i found these by chance as i was reading in al-kafi, so im sure there are more on this. but i'd be very grateful if someday somebody finds unanimously agreed upon ahadeeth concerning this issue. This would be good to pre-empt the whole ashura fitna debates that take place .. 

 

for the past few years i have asked many people online to find me evidence from the blessed hadiths to support the self beating.

 

the strongest evidence i could find was this verse in the quran, where sayida sara hits herself:

 

 

And his wife approached with a cry [of alarm] and struck her face and said, "[i am] a barren old woman!" 51:29

 

 

however, this is not in relation to mourning for somebody's death, and no tools used of course, nor blood.

 

 

anyway, would be good to gather all pro and anti hadiths on this .. the authentic ones ..

 

jazak Allah Khair,

 

fi amanilah

 

(wasalam)

[Ibn Al-Ja'abi]

 

(wasalam)

 

(bismillah)

 

im really no hadith expert (what is mutawatir?), and i found these by chance as i was reading in al-kafi, so im sure there are more on this. but i'd be very grateful if someday somebody finds unanimously agreed upon ahadeeth concerning this issue. This would be good to pre-empt the whole ashura fitna debates that take place .. 

 

for the past few years i have asked many people online to find me evidence from the blessed hadiths to support the self beating.

 

the strongest evidence i could find was this verse in the quran, where sayida sara hits herself:

 

 

And his wife approached with a cry [of alarm] and struck her face and said, "[i am] a barren old woman!" 51:29

 

 

however, this is not in relation to mourning for somebody's death, and no tools used of course, nor blood.

 

 

anyway, would be good to gather all pro and anti hadiths on this .. the authentic ones ..

 

jazak Allah Khair,

 

fi amanilah

 

(wasalam)

 

I'm afraid the whole purpose of matam becomes controversial if these hadith are found authentic.

 

 

I would like to ask the rijalists to respond on this issue & comment on the chain of narrators of these ahadith.

 

From a larger Hadith it is reported from Imam Sadiq that he said:

 

ثم قال: كل الجزع والبكاء مكروه ما خلا الجزع والبكاء لقتل الحسين عليه السلام

 

Then he said: "Every sadness and crying is disliked except for crying upon Al-Hussain (as)."

 

Wasa'il Al-Shia volume 3 page 282

 

Sheikh Ali Al-Muhsin: Mu'tabar

Sheikh Jawad Tabrizi: Sahih

Sheikh Al-Jawahiri: Hasan

 

And the Matam for Imam Hussain is also grounded in the narrations and Tarikh, Imam Zain Al-Abidin says as recorded by Sheikh Mufid:

 

(Upon Imam Hussain reciting his famous lines of poetry on Shab e Ashur, i.e. Ya Dahr Uff Lak Min Khaleel, Kam Lak Bil-Ashraq Wa Al-Aseel..., Bibi Zainab was with Imam Sajjad and she heard these lines so the Hadith continues):

 

ثم لطمت وجهها، وهوت إلى جيبها فشقته، وخرت مغشياً عليها

 

Then she slapped her face, and tore her clothes, and fell unconscious.

 

Kitab Al-Irshad page 232 (Mu'assassat Al-Alami Lil-Matbuat edition)

 

Furthermore Sheikh Tusi writes in Tahdhib Al-Ahkam:

 

وقد شققن الجيوب ولطمن الخدود الفاطميات على الحسين بن علي عليهما‌السلام ، وعلى مثله تلطم الخدود وتشق الجيوب

 

And then the Fatimitte women tore their clothing and slapped their cheeks for Al-Hussain ibn Ali (as), and upon someone likewise slapping their cheecks and tore their clothes.

 

Tahdhib Al-Irshad volume 8 page 325

 

And as for Tatbir, though there may not be any explicit evidence for this action, we can be sure the Masumeen did cause themselves pain using non-body parts, such as one found in Sheikh Nuri Tabrisi's Dar Al-Salam:

 

لما سمع علي بن الحسين سقوط الرأس في حجر  الجارية الحسناء ، قام على طوله ونطح جدار البيت بوجهه ، فكسر أنفه وشج رأسه وسال دمه على صدره ، وخر مغشياً عليه من شدة الحزن والبكاء

 

When Ali ibn Al-Hussain (as) heard the drop of the head on the lap of the lady, he stood to his full height and struck his face on the wall of the house, and broke his nose and split his head and let the blood flow to his chest, and fell unconscious as a result of the sever crying and grief.

 

Dar Al-Salam volume 2 page 200

 

There is another one as well which is famously reported by those in favor of Tatbir (and criticized as weak though Syed Shabbur has said it is reported in Mutabar books) of Bibi Zainab hitting her head on the pole of the camel litter when she saw her brother's head so hard that blood flowed out because of it:

 

فلتفتت زينب فرأت رأس أخيها فنطهت جبينها بمقدم المحمل حتى رأينا الدم يخرج من تحت فناعها

 

Jila Al-Uyun by Syed Shabbur volume 2 page 290

 

And even if people say these do not justify Tatbir, Tatbir is allowed because:

 

1. There is nothing to explicitly forbid it without us using qiyas, so the Hadith which is from Imam Sadiq "Everything is absolute until it is discouraged"

2. The narrations (such as the beginning part of the one from Tahdhib I quoted) state that the restrictions on mourning in general is that one is not supposed to rend the kaffan of the deceased, the woman is not supposed to tear her hair out or scratch her face.

3. If one says then is self harm/emo-like behavior allowed? It's not because we're limiting it to mourning and taking it a step further, tatbir is in a very special case and that is for the musibat of the masum, and we know that all grief is makrooh except for Imam Hussain so we're discussing a special case here.

4. These narrations nevertheless discuss the masumeen causing themselves to bleed using objects for mourning for Imam Hussain, and the Muminin who do tatbir do the same thing, if they ritualized it rather than leave it spontaneous so what? Those who do matam and nohas ritualized a once spontaneous act, do we stop that too/call it bid'a? In addition, if it is said that these narrations are weak or mursal it doesn't make a difference, we're not using them to form aqida but for historical evidence for an action. Also, like I said both Syed Shabbur and Allama Majlisi said the Hadith of Bibi Zainab is found in Mutabar books.

 

And if someone says that tatbir may cause someone harm then that's besides the point, there are a few incidents of people who hurt themselves doing this but then they are just a few, otherwise there are medical professionals on the scene and people rarely hurt themselves seeing as it's just cutting the skin of the scalp to let blood flow. And it's irrelevant to begin with since the Marjas who allow it say it's allowed with safety of the body (such as Syed Khoei who stippulated that condition when he gave the ruling of permission for tatbir).

 

In conclusion, the mourning for Imam Hussain is without a single doubt a most virtuous action, and as is found in the various reports crying a single tear wipes away an ocean of sins. It is surprising people try to say that certain acts are too much when our Imam himself says in Ziyarat Nahiya that he cries tears of blood for his grand father. I will also leave this link which contains 21 Shia narrations which discuss the istihab for mourning Imam Hussain (as):

 

http://www.oqaili.com/arabic/moharam/estehbab_alboka.html

 

And as for those narrations you provided peace seeker, they restrict mourning in general but we're talking about a specific case of mourning. That being said Insha'Allah when I get free time I plan on examining the fiqh of mourning the dead.

[aqeelfair4u]

we are not jurists to give fatwas here....the fatwa of Ayatollah Ali Khamnei about Qama zani and Zanjer zani is that it is haram and innovation and we should avoid it...Rehbar also says that neither Allah nor Imam Hussain like these acts.....now think

[Ibn Al-Ja'abi]

we are not jurists to give fatwas here....the fatwa of Ayatollah Ali Khamnei about Qama zani and Zanjer zani is that it is haram and innovation and we should avoid it...Rehbar also says that neither Allah nor Imam Hussain like these acts.....now think

 

With all due respect, I don't think Syed Ali Khamanei has jurisdiction to say what Allah or the Masum (as) would like. There are maraja who have allowed it, Ayatullah Rohani, Shirazi, Ayatullah Mirza Tabrizi, Ayatullah Waheed Khorasani, Ayatullah Khoei, Ayatullah Naeni, and the list goes on. There's an interesting incident about Ayatullah Sheikh Zain Al-Abidin in which he goes to Masjid Al-Sahla and meets the Imam and asks him about Tatbir, the Imam permits it and he gave a fatwa based on the fatwa of the Imam. Wallahu Alam, please don't make it seem so one sided.

[Lordofgemini]

There are maraja who have allowed it, Ayatullah Rohani, Shirazi, Ayatullah Mirza Tabrizi, Ayatullah Waheed Khorasani,

1- Qama zani is one of the innovations that harmed Shia a lot and some, due to Qama Zani, accuse Shia of being insane. We clearly declare that people must refrain from doing Qama zani. In other word, harming body is Haraam whether it is done with Qama or by bladed Zanjeers or hard slaps which cause serious harm for body.

^this is what Ayatollah Makram Shirazi's office said.

[narsis]

Bismillah.

 

Salaam to all.

 

I just want to mention one point; Our Imams (p) are considered as the best role model. I don't find any narration saying that any Imam after Imam Husain (p) had done Tatbir. We have Imam al-Hujjah (may Allah hasten his reappearance) who shows his extreme sadness in Ziarat Naahiyah Muqaddasah in which he says: 

 

فَلاَ نْدُبَنَّک َ صَباحاً وَ مَسآءً، وَ لاَبْکِیَنَّ لَک َ بَدَلَ الدُّمُوعِ دَماً، حَسْرَةً عَلَیْک، وَ تَأَسُّفاً عَلى ما دَهاک وَ تَلَهُّفاً، حَتّى أَمُوتَ بِلَوْعَةِ  الْمُصابِ، وَ غُصَّةِ الاِکْتِیاب

 

I will, therefore, lament you morning and evening, and will weep blood in place of tears, out of my anguish for you and my sorrow for all that befell you, until I meet death from the pain of the catastrophe and the choking grief.

 

 

So to take lesson of Imam al-Hujjah who is the most deserved person to show his extreme level of mourning for his father, Imam al-Husain (p), we have to avoid Tatbir as he (p) does not do the same method for mourning.

 

With Duas.

 

Narsis.

Edited October 8, 2014 by narsis

[HamzaTR]

Please read the articles here and check the fatawas on the site:

 

http://www.tatbir.org

 

ma salam

[aqeelfair4u]

With all due respect, I don't think Syed Ali Khamanei has jurisdiction to say what Allah or the Masum (as) would like. There are maraja who have allowed it, Ayatullah Rohani, Shirazi, Ayatullah Mirza Tabrizi, Ayatullah Waheed Khorasani, Ayatullah Khoei, Ayatullah Naeni, and the list goes on. There's an interesting incident about Ayatullah Sheikh Zain Al-Abidin in which he goes to Masjid Al-Sahla and meets the Imam and asks him about Tatbir, the Imam permits it and he gave a fatwa based on the fatwa of the Imam. Wallahu Alam, please don't make it seem so one sided

dear i was just telling the fatwa of syed Ali khamnei(Allah protect him) regarding tatbir  ...the marja i follow is Sheikh Muhammad Hussain Najafi(Allah protect him) of pakistan and he says this

http://www.sibtain.com/en/Questions_Answers_Azadari.aspx

[mina]

If u want to give ur blood for Imam Hussayn as, go and fight against Takfiris or donate blood in hospitals...

Edited October 8, 2014 by mina313

[abduljabbar]

salam alaikum

 

 

If u want to give ur blood for Imam Hussayn as, go and fight against Takfiris or donate blood in hospitals...

 

the issue is not about giving blood, its about manners of mourning

 

 

We find NO hadith in the Al Kafi, Man la yahduruhu al faqih, Tahdhib ul ahkam, Al Istibsar, Wasael al shia & Bihar ul Anwar permitting this act. If not haram than probably an innovation & innovation leads to more innovations justifying the latter on the basis of former.

 

the rule in fiqh is that everything is permitted unless it is proven to be forbidden. so the lack of hadeeths permitting it does not mean that it is not allowed. rather proof is needed for it to be deemed forbidden. as mentioned by the brother above, many current and past maraje have deemed it permissible, in fact mustahab.

 

so lets just follow our own maraje and get on with our lives.

 

peace seeker ii mentioned some rewayat about being patient, but that is in regards to worldly griefs. there are many many other rewayat that indicate very clearly that mourning imam hussain and the ahlul bayt a.s. is excluded and there is no required patience for that. the likes of sheikh naeeni and sayyed khoi based their fatawa on permitting tatbeer and the like on such narrations.

 

if you have a strong view on the matter keep it to yourself and those who follow you, e.g. your family, and theres no need to force this issue on others, especially when there is a clear difference amongst the maraje, and the majority is in favor of such acts.

[mina]

"the issue is not about giving blood, its about manners of mourning"

When the prophet saas lost Khadija amd his uncle hamza within 6 month, may Allah t be pleased with them, how did the prophet saas mourn...do u know that?

[ShiaHashmi]

"the issue is not about giving blood, its about manners of mourning"

When the prophet saas lost Khadija amd his uncle hamza within 6 month, may Allah t be pleased with them, how did the prophet saas mourn...do u know that?

no, how did he mourn?

[mina]

He saas declared that year to the year of mourning, 'aam ul-huzn.I read narrations about crying and his deep grief about his beloved who had supported him in every way.....also Fatima Zahra as had a house of mourning.beit ul-huzn for mourning about father saas in private.There are shia and sunni narrations about beating the cheast and crying,when mourning.

Edited October 8, 2014 by mina313

[abduljabbar]

Lets accept all that you say, but tell me this: what is the proof that we cannot mourn in any except in the manner that the Masoomeen a.s. mourned?? Where is the daleel for this??

What we do find is that they took the cultural norm of that time in the manner of mourning, such as the recitation of mourning poetry over the dead, and used that to mourn over the blessed shuhada. And there is a universal means of mourning by way of wailing and crying, and that has been elaborated by the ahadeeth. But there is nothing to limit us in how we should mourn over the ahlul bayt a.s. as long as it is within the boundaries of what is generally permitted.

[mina]

But there is a limit when it comes to the image of Islam.And if something is not forbidden as u say,do we have to practise it no matter which effect it brings...even if the narrations are weak and no other proofs can be found?

[Ibn Al-Ja'abi]

But there is a limit when it comes to the image of Islam.And if something is not forbidden as u say,do we have to practise it no matter which effect it brings...even if the narrations are weak and no other proofs can be found?

 

Assalam Alaykum, did you read my post (#16), I'd like to think I have addressed these issues. Also if we're talking about what's good or bad for the image of Islam, you do know that Shias are mocked for doing matam on its own as well? Do we give that up too? Also speaking about how Rasul Allah (saww) mourned Hazrat Hamza (ra), he cried over his grave, we have no narrations about him reciting poetry or preforming chest beating so that really isn't a good example when it comes to telling us how not to mourn.

 

 

1- Qama zani is one of the innovations that harmed Shia a lot and some, due to Qama Zani, accuse Shia of being insane. We clearly declare that people must refrain from doing Qama zani. In other word, harming body is Haraam whether it is done with Qama or by bladed Zanjeers or hard slaps which cause serious harm for body.

^this is what Ayatollah Makram Shirazi's office said.

 

I think you have the wrong Shirazi, I was talking about Ayatullah Syed Sadiq Shirazi.

 

 

Please read the articles here and check the fatawas on the site:

 

http://www.tatbir.org

 

ma salam

 

This site is unfortunately dishonest when it comes to the fatwas and have wrongly given the views for a number of Ulama. If you refer to my earlier post and Nader's post then you'd know that Syed Sistani doesn't have a fatwa on Tatbir yet this site attributed to him one, Ayatullah Khoei, Kashif Al-Ghita, Mirza Jawad Tabrizi (he actually provides the incident of Bibi Zainab this site tries to say is weak as evidence), also the fatwa of Sheikh Bashir Najafi allowed it. These are just some things I caught skimming through it, I wonder what else can be found if one truly researches these points. Wallahu A'lam.

[realizm]

Bismillah.

 

Salaam to all.

 

I just want to mention one point; Our Imams (p) are considered as the best role model. I don't find any narration saying that any Imam after Imam Husain (p) had done Tatbir. We have Imam al-Hujjah (may Allah hasten his reappearance) who shows his extreme sadness in Ziarat Naahiyah Muqaddasah in which he says: 

 

فَلاَ نْدُبَنَّک َ صَباحاً وَ مَسآءً، وَ لاَبْکِیَنَّ لَک َ بَدَلَ الدُّمُوعِ دَماً، حَسْرَةً عَلَیْک، وَ تَأَسُّفاً عَلى ما دَهاک وَ تَلَهُّفاً، حَتّى أَمُوتَ بِلَوْعَةِ  الْمُصابِ، وَ غُصَّةِ الاِکْتِیاب

 

I will, therefore, lament you morning and evening, and will weep blood in place of tears, out of my anguish for you and my sorrow for all that befell you, until I meet death from the pain of the catastrophe and the choking grief.

 

 

So to take lesson of Imam al-Hujjah who is the most deserved person to show his extreme level of mourning for his father, Imam al-Husain (p), we have to avoid Tatbir as he (p) does not do the same method for mourning.

 

With Duas.

 

Narsis.

Salam,

Then I guess a proper way to mourn would be to cry blood ?

[peace seeker II]

From a larger Hadith it is reported from Imam Sadiq that he said:

 

ثم قال: كل الجزع والبكاء مكروه ما خلا الجزع والبكاء لقتل الحسين عليه السلام

 

Then he said: "Every sadness and crying is disliked except for crying upon Al-Hussain (as)."

 

Wasa'il Al-Shia volume 3 page 282

 

Sheikh Ali Al-Muhsin: Mu'tabar

Sheikh Jawad Tabrizi: Sahih

Sheikh Al-Jawahiri: Hasan

 

ثم لطمت وجهها، وهوت إلى جيبها فشقته، وخرت مغشياً عليها

 

Then she slapped her face, and tore her clothes, and fell unconscious.

 

Kitab Al-Irshad page 232 (Mu'assassat Al-Alami Lil-Matbuat edition)

 

 

وقد شققن الجيوب ولطمن الخدود الفاطميات على الحسين بن علي عليهما‌السلام ، وعلى مثله تلطم الخدود وتشق الجيوب

 

And then the Fatimitte women tore their clothing and slapped their cheeks for Al-Hussain ibn Ali (as), and upon someone likewise slapping their cheecks and tore their clothes.

 

Tahdhib Al-Irshad volume 8 page 325

 

 

 

لما سمع علي بن الحسين سقوط الرأس في حجر  الجارية الحسناء ، قام على طوله ونطح جدار البيت بوجهه ، فكسر أنفه وشج رأسه وسال دمه على صدره ، وخر مغشياً عليه من شدة الحزن والبكاء

 

When Ali ibn Al-Hussain (as) heard the drop of the head on the lap of the lady, he stood to his full height and struck his face on the wall of the house, and broke his nose and split his head and let the blood flow to his chest, and fell unconscious as a result of the sever crying and grief.

 

Dar Al-Salam volume 2 page 200

 

 

فلتفتت زينب فرأت رأس أخيها فنطهت جبينها بمقدم المحمل حتى رأينا الدم يخرج من تحت فناعها

 

Jila Al-Uyun by Syed Shabbur volume 2 page 290

 

 

And as for those narrations you provided peace seeker, they restrict mourning in general but we're talking about a specific case of mourning. That being said Insha'Allah when I get free time I plan on examining the fiqh of mourning the dead.

 

i don't think anybody is saying there is something wrong with crying tears or mourning.

 

it is the first time for me to see the above hadiths, especially the ones of imam hussain breaking his own nose and opening his head, which i find hard to believe. i simply can't imagine an intelligent man, who has surrendered himself to Allah, and realizes that his destiny is from Allah, that such a man would lose control of himself and do zulm to his own body like that,

 

but i don't want to go to far off from evidence. i'm no hadith expert, so others will have to decide for themselves how accurate they are.

 

to me personally logic and quran are in line in this issue. To hurt ones body or damage it, is to do zulm/wrong to it. The opposite of healing and nurturing it. And the quran talks very clearly about doing zulm to oneself. 

 

However, i am very interested to see what hadiths there are and thank you for bringing them up Ibn Al-Ja'abi

 

 

والذين إذا فعلوا فاحشة أو ظلموا أنفسهم ذكروا الله فاستغفروا لذنوبهم ومن يغفر الذنوب إلا الله ولم يصروا على ما فعلوا وهم يعلمون

Sahih International

And those who, when they commit an immorality or wrong themselves, remember Allah and seek forgiveness for their sins - and who can forgive sins except Allah ? - and [who] do not persist in what they have done while they know. 3:135

 

 

 

وما ظلمهم الله ولكن أنفسهم يظلمون

 

And Allah has not wronged them, but they wrong themselves. 3:117

 

ن الله لا يظلم مثقال ذرة وإن تك حسنة يضاعفها ويؤت من لدنه أجرا عظيما

Sahih International

Indeed, Allah does not do wrong/zulm,  as much as an atom's weight; while if there is a good deed, He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward.  4:40

 

 

 

[narsis]

Salam,

Then I guess a proper way to mourn would be to cry blood ?

 

If you are Imam al-Hujjah, then do that!

لما سمع علي بن الحسين سقوط الرأس في حجر  الجارية الحسناء ، قام على طوله ونطح جدار البيت بوجهه ، فكسر أنفه وشج رأسه وسال دمه على صدره ، وخر مغشياً عليه من شدة الحزن والبكاء

 

I did not find this Hadith in Major and authentic narration books. So I did not search for other Hadith you've mentioned.

[Aabiss_Shakari]

The most relevant post is of Nadar Zaveri brother. As now it is clear that there is no Fatwa of Prohibition of Zanjeer Zani by Ayatullah Ali Sistani (hz), i have decided to do Zanjeer Zani this year....

[narsis]

The most relevant post is of Nadar Zaveri brother. As now it is clear that there is no Fatwa of Prohibition of Zanjeer Zani by Ayatullah Ali Sistani (hz), i have decided to do Zanjeer Zani this year....

 

Brother! he has Fatwaa neither in prohibition nor permission; so please be careful because you don't know whether it is allowed or not; since there is no obligation (Wujub) for this action certainly, so intellect demands not doing that because it may be is Haraam.

 

With Duas.

 

Narsis.