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Ethics

Bill Maher And Ben Affleck Debate On Islam

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Poor Ben Affleck lol, these people are genuine critics though - even if they cross over the boundaries sometimes. At least they sound like sensible critics here anyway.

 

The problem is theyre the most dishonest critics out there, even if they're not bigots...and they are still genuine.

 

This is the single biggest problem in American pop culture's approach to these issues.

Edited by Jahangiram

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The problem is, Maher and his buddy know how to make their argument sound logical, while Affleck comes across as someone who is arguing out of emotion. They are so deceptive, but they know how to make what they sound right.

Edited by Ali al-Hadi

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I can't stand those two morons, but they are fundamentally right. Islam is not entirely compatible with Western liberalism.

 

I think it's better to say "my understanding of Islam is incompatible with western liberalism". If I do become Muslim which I think I will be, I'm always going to make the habit of saying "according to my Islam"...because it's better then to attribute to God what we aren't sure of...and we know Muslims often do that.

 

You maybe right, and even if you are 100% certain, I think it's better that we lead by example that all Muslims stop voicing their interpretations of Islam as facts but their fallible interpretations and understanding of the religion.  In order for this to work we should do it even when we are certain about a debatable issue.

 

After all, stating it's your opinion doesn't mean it's wrong or you're not certain.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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Ben Affleck comes off as really stupid and naive in this. He gets overly-emotional without making a sound argument or responding to what Harris was really saying (doesn't seem like he understood). He;s just blurting out typical liberal slogans about tolerance, comparing everything to racism against Blacks etc.

 

He is getting ready for Batman so may be on a roid rage.

 

Haydar Husayn is right. Honestly too much multiculturalism is bound to fail. Islam and western liberalism just don't see eye to eye on some things.

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^ Hello,

 

I think it is a bit more accurate to say "Islam and secularism just don't see eye to eye on some things."

 

Many westerners, like Ben, view Islam only as a religion.  A religion that can fit into Western society like many other religions.  What they fail to understand is the political component of Islam.  It is this political component that makes Islam incompatible with a secular society in my opinion.

 

All the Best,

David

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Yeah I dunno why Muslims are so desperate to appease Westerners and convince them they are compatible. Islam and secular western ideals have different takes on some issues. Period. Let's all agree to disagree and live in peace.

 

 

It is very much a defense mechanism.

 

Take a look at the many Muslims that claim every terrorist group isn't "real" Muslims. It is a baseless comment that serves no purpose but to make Muslims seem more appealing to the west.

 

We need to stop denouncing terrorist groups as "not real muslims" and start progressing our teachings into a less violent ones. Wise leaders do not let an ideology of violence and war fester to the point of genocidal terrorist groups freely roaming the middle east and the greater world.

 

 

For the record I am not in support of any terrorist groups but the reality is they follow Islam and I can't deny that even if it pains me to be associated in any way with such ideologies.

Edited by Kurdi Fehli

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It is very much a defense mechanism.

 

Take a look at the many Muslims that claim every terrorist group isn't "real" Muslims. It is a baseless comment that serves no purpose but to make Muslims seem more appealing to the west.

 

We need to stop denouncing terrorist groups as "not real muslims" and start progressing our teachings into a less violent ones. Wise leaders do not let an ideology of violence and war fester to the point of genocidal terrorist groups freely roaming the middle east and the greater world.

 

 

For the record I am not in support of any terrorist groups but the reality is they follow Islam and I can't deny that even if it pains me to be associated in any way with such ideologies.

 

This is the most senseless post I have honestly ever read. Let me break it down to you, in a simpler form, and just maybe, maybe you might try to fix your broken reasoning.

 

Terrorists kill innocent men women and children because that IS their ideology and because they believe everyone but them are disbelievers, they have sought out to destroy mankind until they have it their way. The problem is, a group of them affiliate their self with Islam, and call their ideology Islam. However, the contradiction is, Islam in NO WAY WHAT SO EVER, supports their ideology or even hints at it. They have hijacked and made Islam their scapegoat (persay) in that they are only delusional and are in FACT using their agenda to destroy Islam and its image. However, one can argue, they are in fact bring more into the true Islam and are making Muslims who will not stand for such injustice. Gullible and ignorant people, like yourself have fallen for their bate, and have no clue what Islam really is and believe what ever the media tells you to.

 

Islam -> You are NOT allowed to kill unjustly nor do you have the right to judge and condemn other for being in different faiths.

 

They on the other hand contradict this, thus they are disobeying God, hence they are not MUSLIM.

 

O you men! surely We have created you of a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other; surely the most honorable of you with Allah is the one among you most careful (of his duty); surely Allah is Knowing, Aware 49:13

 

For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land. 5:32

 

There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.Allah is the guardian of those who believe. He brings them out of the darkness into the light; and (as to) those who disbelieve, their guardians are Shaitans who take them out of the light into the darkness; they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide. 2:256-7

Edited by PureEthics

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It is very much a defense mechanism.

 

Take a look at the many Muslims that claim every terrorist group isn't "real" Muslims. It is a baseless comment that serves no purpose but to make Muslims seem more appealing to the west.

 

We need to stop denouncing terrorist groups as "not real muslims" and start progressing our teachings into a less violent ones. Wise leaders do not let an ideology of violence and war fester to the point of genocidal terrorist groups freely roaming the middle east and the greater world.

 

 

For the record I am not in support of any terrorist groups but the reality is they follow Islam and I can't deny that even if it pains me to be associated in any way with such ideologies.

Most muslims will just resort to the verses and hadiths to condemn them, so its not much of a cancerous tumour growing everywhere. Its easy to disassociate from them. Just look at how they think modern democracies function and that's enough to discredit them. 

 

Also, this discussion wasnt about general 'terrorism', it was about the fundamental ideological disagreements the modern West has about Islam. 

Edited by Jahangiram

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They on the other hand contradict this, thus they are disobeying God, hence they are not MUSLIM.

 

You are in no position to say someone is not a Muslim. Takfir is not appropriate here.

 

Brother I will not argue with you over the details but I will say this to clarify myself. ISIS is just an evolution of Islamic extremism. Before them came Al Qaeda. Is Al Qaeda also not Muslim? What about Salafi's? These are all groups that share an ideology that stems from the Hanbali school of Sunni Islam. This is a problem we face in Islam.

 

 

Most muslims will just resort to the verses and hadiths to condemn them, so its not much of a cancerous tumour growing everywhere. Its easy to disassociate from them. Just look at how they think modern democracies function and that's enough to discredit them. 

 

Also, this discussion wasnt about general 'terrorism', it was about the fundamental ideological disagreements the modern West has about Islam. 

 

ISIS can use other verses and hadiths to condemn those that condemn them. It is a fundamental issue we need to sort out as it is tearing our religion apart.

 

The west isn't at fault here. Why should the west change to accommodate Muslims beliefs entirely? They are not a native religion and Muslims should not expect the west to function like an Islamic state. We should however not face vilification for our belief. However our beliefs should not over ride the beliefs of a country that has a demographic make up that simply isn't Islamic. 

 

 

I apologise for straying off topic earlier.

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You are in no position to say someone is not a Muslim. Takfir is not appropriate here.

 

They are not Muslims, because they NEVER were. That is the whole point. Prove to me they were/are Muslims. Heck, God Himself, calls those like them disbelievers. I am only repeating what God has decreed ^_^ Just because you hear someone call out the shahada doesnt make them a muslim, just as much as you hear me yelling Jesus christ doesnt make me a christian. A shahada is you making a contract with God to hold yourself liable to your actions and supposed duties. You are only defined by your actions and character, of which Islam (Allah) has its own propagated ie Taqwa piety. If anything though, if they them self believe they are Muslims, God's punishment upon them will be infinite :)

 

Your statements are horrid because you are intentionally or unintentionally bringing their attributes and character as a sign of Islam. Not to mention the irrational. Just because a person has a colored shirt on, or was from a race, or was from a skin color, or spoke a certain language, does not imply everyone with similar characteristics are like that person. This is a fallacy. You judge each and every person by their actions and character of which stem from their own ideology. Unless, you can prove their ideology is in totality from a certain set of beliefs.

 

What I am trying to say is, suppose there is a "muslim" killer. The person was not a killer because they were Muslim, nor did Islam tell that person to become one. Therefore, one cannot claim such a thing. It is erroneous. Which is why when you claim these terrorists are Muslims, you are implicitly implying Islam had something to do with it and their character was only upholding what they were. This is what bothers me. We Muslims do disobey Allah at times, we sin. Our sin is not part of our religion, and it is disobedience to Allah. Sinning is not part of the religion, and it results in God distancing himself from you. No Muslim goes around attributing sin as a character of this religion. Which is what people do when they attribute killers as Muslims. It is more correct to say, he/she claimed to be one.

Edited by PureEthics

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They are not Muslims, because they NEVER were. That is the whole point. Prove to me they were/are Muslims. Heck, God Himself, calls those like them disbelievers. I am only repeating what God has decreed ^_^ Just because you hear someone call out the shahada doesnt make them a muslim, just as much as you hear me yelling Jesus christ doesnt make me a christian. A shahada is you making a contract with God to hold yourself liable to your actions and supposed duties. You are only defined by your actions and character, of which Islam (Allah) has its own propagated ie Taqwa piety. If anything though, if they them self believe they are Muslims, God's punishment upon them will be infinite :)

 

Your statements are horrid because you are intentionally or unintentionally bringing their attributes and character as a sign of Islam. Not to mention the irrational. Just because a person has a colored shirt on, or was from a race, or was from a skin color, or spoke a certain language, does not imply everyone with similar characteristics are like that person. This is a fallacy. You judge each and every person by their actions and character of which is stem from their own ideology.

 

That doesn't change the fact that their beliefs stem from the Quran. As much as both of us want to we can't change that.

 

Don't blame me for bringing them into Islam. They are an integral part of Islam and Islamic history. Back all those years we had Khawarij. Islam faced the same problem, are they muslim or not?

 

We have had this issue for well over 1400 years. Islam is violent. We don't want to admit or deal with it.

 

It is ignorant to blind oneself to the many sources these groups cite in support of their beliefs.

 

Let us go several levels above. The Hanbali school of thought is where much of this stems from. Should we also dismiss them as non-muslims? Their school is one that preaches violence against many people and often acts on it.

 

This is the defensive reaction I initially talked about. This is not progressive behavior. Please try to not blind yourself from the fact that Islam has had this problem for much of it's history.

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That doesn't change the fact that their beliefs stem from the Quran. As much as both of us want to we can't change that.

 

Don't blame me for bringing them into Islam. They are an integral part of Islam and Islamic history. Back all those years we had Khawarij. Islam faced the same problem, are they muslim or not?

 

We have had this issue for well over 1400 years. Islam is violent. We don't want to admit or deal with it.

 

It is ignorant to blind oneself to the many sources these groups cite in support of their beliefs.

 

Let us go several levels above. The Hanbali school of thought is where much of this stems from. Should we also dismiss them as non-muslims? Their school is one that preaches violence against many people and often acts on it.

 

This is the defensive reaction I initially talked about. This is not progressive behavior. Please try to not blind yourself from the fact that Islam has had this problem for much of it's history.

 

Now you are making baseless statements. When you have valid evidence, then I may reply again. But for now, your just delusional. PS: Nice, your claiming to be a Shia Muslim now? :lol:

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Kurdi you're missing my point, terrorism is rejected in mainstream islam by simple fiqhi realities: 1. citizenship being a treaty/trust which cant be broken 2. All the hadiths forbidding murdering non-combatants. So its not one of the major 'faultlines' between Islam and the West, one of the reasons why Sam distinguished between 'jihadists' and 'Islamists'. There are REAL faultlines though, and they were pointed out by Sam Harris and Bill in the video. Views on genders, sexuality and the role of religion in the state are major faultlines between the Muslim world and the West. And many muslim societies continue to hold conservative views about these subjects.

Edited by Jahangiram

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Now you are making baseless statements. When you have valid evidence, then I may reply again. But for now, your just delusional. PS: Nice, your claiming to be a Shia Muslim now? :lol:

First of all it is not respectful to laugh at what I believe in. I don't claim to be Shia Muslim. I am. I have been shia muslim since the day I was born in 1961 in Baghdad. Is that a problem? Does that some how make what I have said invalid?

 

 

I am not making baseless claims. Salafi's are a big group and they have their scholars. Much the same with Wahab. Who are we to say they are not Muslim? Because they kill our people? They back up their madness with Islamic texts.

 

I am not going to go hunting for Salafi stuff as I frankly don't enjoy reading religious scriptures anymore. However I find it strange that you would dismiss my statements as baseless when in fact they are very prominent in Islam. Especially Sunni Islam. We Shia have been okay to kill for 1400 years. Is that not a fundamental problem with Islam? Are we not Muslims?!

 

 

Kurdi you're missing my point, terrorism is rejected in mainstream islam by simple fiqhi realities: 1. citizenship being a treaty/trust which cant be broken 2. All the hadiths forbidding murdering non-combatants. So its not one of the major 'faultlines' between Islam and the West, one of the reasons why Sam distinguished between 'jihadists' and 'Islamists'. There are REAL faultlines though, and they were pointed out by Sam Harris and Bill in the video. Views on genders, sexuality and the role of religion in the state are major faultlines between the Muslim world and the West. And many muslim societies continue to hold conservative views about these subjects.

 

Terrorism is not rejected by mainstream Islam. It is rejected by people that want to pick and choose which part of Islam they want to follow.

 

Every Islamic group on earth has knowingly killed non-combatants. Our Hezbollah have killed non-combatants. Those rockets being launched at Israel aren't exactly going to kill the army are they? They landed on the houses of innocent people. We say we are against Zionism yet we launch rockets at the houses of our Jewish brothers and sisters.

 

For the record I a bigger support of Hassan Nasrallah than many of you put together but that does not make these actions any less reprehensible.

 

Islam has too many sects that allow for such violence to continue.

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Now you're just being silly, its not rocket science, we're talking about official shar'i laws set in stone by Islamic scholars. Fulfilling treaties, not killing women and children, there's no ambiguity about it in hadiths. Are you even willing to talk about the genuine differences between Islam and the West or do you just relish being a hyperbolic fool? 'Our Hezbollah', ye right as if a genuine shia would bash Hezbollah like this. News for you, Hamas' rockets are washed away as collateral damage since their official position is against killing non-combatants.

 

You're really bad at selling yourself on this forum im sorry to say.

Edited by Jahangiram

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First of all it is not respectful to laugh at what I believe in. I don't claim to be Shia Muslim. I am. I have been shia muslim since the day I was born in 1961 in Baghdad. Is that a problem? Does that some how make what I have said invalid?

 

 

I am not making baseless claims. Salafi's are a big group and they have their scholars. Much the same with Wahab. Who are we to say they are not Muslim? Because they kill our people? They back up their madness with Islamic texts.

 

I am not going to go hunting for Salafi stuff as I frankly don't enjoy reading religious scriptures anymore. However I find it strange that you would dismiss my statements as baseless when in fact they are very prominent in Islam. Especially Sunni Islam. We Shia have been okay to kill for 1400 years. Is that not a fundamental problem with Islam? Are we not Muslims?!

 

I find it funny you claim to be following an ideology you outwardly contradict. Second, the claims that I were calling baseless were you attributing Islam with terrorism and how its violent and what not.

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Now you're just being silly, its not rocket science, we're talking about official shar'i laws set in stone by Islamic scholars. Fulfilling treaties, not killing women and children, there's no ambiguity about it in hadiths. Are you even willing to talk about the genuine differences between Islam and the West or do you just relish being a hyperbolic fool? 'Our Hezbollah', ye right as if a genuine shia would bash Hezbollah like this.

 

You're really bad at selling yourself on this forum im sorry to say.

 

So you don't want to address anything Hezbollah has done?

 

I am Shia but I am not afraid of shining light at the dark parts of our faith. You will never progress in life if you aren't self critical. Following blindly and never questioning the actions is not what Shia Islam is about. We are the most progressive sect in Islam. Let us maintain that.

 

People don't always follow their religion when it doesn't suit them do they?

Edited by Kurdi Fehli

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You're really bad at selling yourself on this forum im sorry to say.

 

This person is new to our forum. It thinks, it is fooling us. lol

 

This person says, "I am a Muslim but I think my God and religion is violent and extreme". :lol:

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What a truth seeker! Someone who cant even be willing to acknowledge the genuine consensus in islamic scholarship.

 

What an age we're living in where Sam Harris becomes a more sensible commentator on these issues than a non-western man from a muslim background.

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If none of you want to be critical of terrorism in our religion (from the days of Muawiya to today!) then I will leave this topic and let you all discuss how perfect Muslims are.

 

Just please read some quotes from Imam Ali and maybe change your attitudes to people that put forward and opinion that differs from yours.

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^You could be critical about the genuine differences between Islam and the West that were spoken of in the video (like gender roles, sexuality etc), but you were the one who digressed and brought patently false claims on Islamic views about terrorism; and you refuse to face the reality, so someone's clearly not willing to learn anything new.

 

Bye bye.

Edited by Jahangiram

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Brother I will not argue with you over the details but I will say this to clarify myself. ISIS is just an evolution of Islamic extremism. Before them came Al Qaeda. Is Al Qaeda also not Muslim? What abo

 

 

 

What verse Al- Qaeda used to fly planes in to a building full of non combatant?

What verse ISIS is using to mass slaughter muslims and non muslims and raping their women?

 

The Book had a Teacher with it? the Prophet Muhammad (pbuhahp) , Imam Ali(as) teaching are been used to justify actions?

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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What verse Al- Qaeda used to fly planes in to a building full of non combatant?

What verse ISIS is using to mass slaughter muslims and non muslims and raping their women?

 

The Book had a Teacher with it? Are the Prophet Muhammad (pbuhahp) , Imam Ali(as) teaching are been used?

 

Private message me if you want to genuinely discuss this.

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Discuss it here-Nothing to hide.( Make sure you provide proper context and history)

 

I don't have anything to hide but the other members have told me that they don't want this discussion here.

 

I am okay with continuing this discussion. However I ask that you don't resort to insults towards me if you hear something you don't like.

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This is the most senseless post I have honestly ever read. Let me break it down to you, in a simpler form, and just maybe, maybe you might try to fix your broken reasoning.

 

Terrorists kill innocent men women and children because that IS their ideology and because they believe everyone but them are disbelievers, they have sought out to destroy mankind until they have it their way. The problem is, a group of them affiliate their self with Islam, and call their ideology Islam. However, the contradiction is, Islam in NO WAY WHAT SO EVER, supports their ideology or even hints at it. They have hijacked and made Islam their scapegoat (persay) in that they are only delusional and are in FACT using their agenda to destroy Islam and its image. However, one can argue, they are in fact bring more into the true Islam and are making Muslims who will not stand for such injustice. Gullible and ignorant people, like yourself have fallen for their bate, and have no clue what Islam really is and believe what ever the media tells you to.

 

Islam -> You are NOT allowed to kill unjustly nor do you have the right to judge and condemn other for being in different faiths.

 

They on the other hand contradict this, thus they are disobeying God, hence they are not MUSLIM.

 

O you men! surely We have created you of a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other; surely the most honorable of you with Allah is the one among you most careful (of his duty); surely Allah is Knowing, Aware 49:13

 

For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land. 5:32

 

There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.Allah is the guardian of those who believe. He brings them out of the darkness into the light; and (as to) those who disbelieve, their guardians are Shaitans who take them out of the light into the darkness; they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide. 2:256-7

 

 

Brother Pureethics,

 

I admire your stance against violence and I hope you know that I appreciate your sentiments on the matter. 

 

However, doing takfeer as per 12ver Shi'i fiqh is not that easy (what makes a person a kafir is usually discussed in kitab al-tahara in most of the advanced level works of Shi'i jurisprudence). Just because someone disobeys Allah's commandments, or commits a grave sin (kabira) does not take the person out of the fold of Islam no matter how foul the person and his actions may be. Historically speaking, this was the theological stance of the Kharijites where they did takfir on people who committed major sins and hence why according to them Imam Ali (as) was a kafir (naoudhoubillah) as they believed he committed a major sin when he agreed to a truce with Mu'awiyah.

 

In mainstream 12ver Shi'ism we have a concept called daruriyaat al-din or the necessary requirements that makes one a Muslim. This includes belief in Tawheed, prophethood, the day of resurrection and points which all Muslims have agreed upon (like 5 prayers a day, the finality of the prophethood etc.) and being a sinner or faasiq does not take you out of the legal fold of Islam (although this does not mean that the person will not go to hell!) 

 

Br. Kurdi is right in that ISIS takes a lot of inspiration from authoritative Sunni texts and precedence. This is particularly the case with Hanbalism. For instance, one of Ibn Hanbal's successors, al-Barbahari (d. 941 AD), was responsible to instigating mass riots and pogroms against groups they deemed as deviants during the Abbasid caliphate. They burnt down their centers and killed their followers (not surprisingly, many if not most were Shias.) Take Ibn Taymiyya as another example who gave a fatwa legitimizing the murderous genocide of the Mamluks against Shi'is in North Africa and the Levant(but notice that the Shi'is jurists largely did not do takfeer on them for doing this.) In fact, you can go back as far as the first caliph Abu Bakr who was the first takfeeri in history when he instigated the Rida wars against a group of people who refused to pay him zakat . Or take another case in point, why are Sunni clerics having such a hard time criticizing al-Baghdadi's claim to the caliphate? Because his instituting of the caliphate is roughly identical to the way people prior to him arbitrarily instituted it (like Muawiya whom they love so much). 

 

I agree with you in that what they are doing is not Islamic (and it is a fact that their group and ideology was created by Western intelligence agencies in collaboration with some degenerate so called Sunni governments). But when we say Islam we mean by our own reading of Islam which inshallah is the most correct one.

 

But we have our issues as well, it's not like the killing of apostates is not present in our texts. However, I tend to side with the wise readings of some of our greatest Shia jurists like al-Muqaddas al-Ardabili (d. 1585 AD) who thought that life and bodily integrity are precious things and that the implementation of capital punishments (hudud) should not be in the hands of a fallible person.

Edited by Al-Khattati

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