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In the Name of God بسم الله

Were 3 Caliphs After The Prophet Capable Leaders?

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Muslim2010

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A- Sunni brothers please quote the verse of Quran which states that the leader / imam / caliph (successor) after the prophet saww is chosen by the people (instead of Allah swt)?

 

B-

قُلْ إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللَّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah, then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." (3:31)

 

قُلْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ

Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers. (3:32)

 

Since the prophet is a leader in the religion obeying him is mandatory for Muslims. Also following him is the only way to obey Allah’s command.

 

 

كَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا فِيكُمْ رَسُولًا مِّنكُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتِنَا وَيُزَكِّيكُمْ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُم مَّا لَمْ تَكُونُوا تَعْلَمُونَ

Just as We have sent among you a messenger from yourselves reciting to you Our verses and purifying you and teaching you the Book and wisdom and teaching you that which you did not know. (2:151)

 

 

So the duties of the prophet (who is a leader and obeying him is mandatory) in the religion are outlined below:

 

1-     Reciting the verses of Quran to the people (with their complete knowledge)

2-     Purifying the people (since he is a purified one)

3-     Teaching the knowledge of book (that contains all the knowledge)

4-     Teaching the wisdom

5-     Teaching the knowledge of unknown

 

C- Since the prophet is the seal of prophet hood, no prophet can come after him. In order to meet these religious duties after the prophet were the leaders chosen by the people (3 caliphs) capable to lead the ummah?

 

Response on the issue will be appreciated..

Edited by skamran110
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They weren't chosen by the people, most of the people were attending the prophets funeral when Abo Bakr was declared caliph by a few other men who did not even attend the prophet's funeral.

 

As Imam Ali (as)  said: how was Abo bakr elected when most of the sahaba were not present there?

 

Then it was passed on to Omer, without even considering Ali.

 

Then a shura was created by omer which was designed to kill Ali if he tried to claim his right.

So the Caliphate was given to Osman ibn Affan.

 

 

They also weren't that wise, they always had to seek the advice of Ali.

And when he had died, people realized it could not go any longer, Uthman also had lost the authority, so he wasn't able to appoint anyone in his place. As a result the seat of Caliphate was empty and Ali was forced by the people to accept.

 

They gave Baya to Ali by force, whereas the 3 caliphs took baya by force.

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Salam Brother & Sister,

 

Not only they're not capable (since in historical study, mentioned may times they refer to Imam Ali (AS) to help them or remind them), as well, they invented new law such the famous Shalat Tarawih (link: http://www.al-islam.org/nutshell/laws_practices/2.htm and Wudhu (response appreciated), which fall into Bid'ah.

 

Salam Brother & Sister.

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Everyone knows that the caliphs who succeeded the Messenger of God, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, knew very little concerning the ordinances of Islam and the religious needs of the people.

 

1- Abubakr even confesses himself, with the utmost frankness that his religious knowledge is not superior to that of anyone else, and declares to the people that if they see him committing an error they should correct him and instruct him in the proper course of action. For this is what he says:

 

"I hold in my hands the reins of your affairs even though I am not the best among you. If you see that I am treading the right path, then support me, and if you see me embarking on the wrong course, then guide me back to the right path. (Ibn Sa'd, al-Tabaqat, Vol. III, p. 151)

 

2- In connection with the religious knowledge of the second caliph, it is reported that someone once went to consult him on a problem that he faced. He said: "I need to make a total ablution (ghusl), but I have no access to water; what is my religious duty under these circumstances?" The caliph answered: "You are relieved of your duty to pray." (Ibn Majah, al-Sunan, Vol. I, p.200.) The real duty of such a person is, however, spelled out in the Qur'an. (4:43 and 5:6).

 

One day, while preaching from the pulpit, the second caliph was criticizing a rise in the amount of dowries customarily given and declared that this increase ought to be prevented. When he descended from the pulpit, a woman objected to what he had said: "Why is it necessary to restrict the amount of dowries? Does God not say in the Qur'an,

 

'If you have given one of your wives great wealth by way of a dowry, you must not take back any of it?" (4:20)

 

The caliph realized his mistake and begged God to forgive him. Then he remarked: "Everyone is better acquainted with God's commands than is 'Umar." Then he mounted the pulpit again and retracted what he had said. (al-Amini, al-Ghadir, Vol. VI, p. 87)

 

3- As for the religious knowledge of the third caliph, it is enough that we should refer to the following event:

 

"During the time of his caliphate an unbeliever was killed by a Muslim. The caliph ordered the murderer to be put to death. But a group of the Companions of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, who were present at the time informed the caliph of his mistake and reminded him that in such cases the murderer should be condemned to the payment of blood money, as a result of which the caliph rescinded his order." (al-Bayhaqi, al-Sunan (al-Kubra), Vol. VIII, p. 33.)

 

Facts such as these serve to demonstrate the degree of religious learning possessed by those persons who assumed the leadership of Islamic society. How then could it be expected that the framework of divine law should remain immune to change and distortion and that Islamic society should advance toward its lofty goals? Whoever carries the burden of leading the ummah must possess extensive religious awareness and knowledge in order to answer whatever questions and problems arise, whereas the knowledge that the caliphs had of the authentic law of Islam was extremely limited.

 

http://www.al-islam.org/imamate-and-leadership-sayyid-mujtaba-musavi-lari/lesson-16-who-are-those-capable-interpreting

 

4- In the light of quoted above it is concluded that the caliphs selected by the people were not capable to lead the ummah.

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The Quran and hadith describes the Leaders capable of Leading the ummah by the following:

 

1-     There are many verses in the Quran clearly mentioning that the prophets, leaders / imams /successors after of the prophet are chosen by Allah not by the people (2:30, 2:247, 2:248, 28:68, 32:24, etc).

2-     The people who chose the caliphs / leaders / imams after the prophet at their own they initiated the bidaa as no verse in Quran exists that the people can choose the leaders / imams / caliphs after the prophet.

3-     The job of the prophet is to purify the people as he himself is purified and after him his pure progeny are purified ones as per verse 33:33 and relevant hadiths.

4-     The prophet has clearly ordered the ummah to follow Quran and Ahl albayat after him in order to avoid going astray (hadith thaqlayn) as both Quran and his progeny are not separable.

"I leave among you two precious and weighty trusts, on being the Book of God and the other my Progeny. These two legacies will never be separated from each other, and if you lay firm hold of them you will never go astray."

(Muslim, al-Sahih, Vol. VII, p. 122; al-Tirmidhi, Jami' al-Sahih, Vol. II, p. 308; al-Hakim, al-Mustadrak, Vol. III, p. 109. Ahmad b. Hanbal, al-Musnad, Vol. III, pp. 14-17. Ibn al-Sabbagh, Fusul al-Muhimmah, p. 24; al-Ganji, Kifayat al-Talib, p. 130; al-Qunduzi, Yanabi' al-Mawaddah, pp. 17-18; al-Ya'qubi, al-Tarikh, Vol. II, p. 92; Fakhr al-Din al-Razi, al-Tafsir al-Kabir, Vol. III,  p. 18; al-Naysaburi, Ghara'ib al-Qur'an, Vol. I, p. 349.)

It is possible to understand the Qur'an and explain the knowledge it contains only by referring to the utterances of those persons upon whom knowledge has been directly bestowed by God, or at least whose knowledge is derived from instruction by a particular source. Such persons can be only the Inerrant (ma'sum) Imams of the Prophet's Progeny.

5-     Ibn Hajar also cites the following sentence uttered by the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his family:

"Do not attempt to go beyond these twin trusts (the Book and the Progeny of the Prophet), for that will lead you into perdition, and do not fall short in adhering to them, for that too will encompass your ruin. Do not imagine the People of the Prophet's House to be ignorant, for they are infinitely more knowledgeable than you and understand well the language of revelation (Ibn Hajar, al-Sawa'iq, p. 153)

6-     The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said, .“The most knowledgeable person in my nation after me is Ali .” Manaqib Al-Imam Ali Ibn Abi TAlib (A.S) of Ibn Al-Maghazeli Al-Shafi^i.

7-     The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said, “Ali (A.S) is the distinguisher between truth and falsehood.” Mustadrak Al-Sahihain of Al-Hakim Al-Nisabori, 3/132; Musnad Ahmad, 1/331; Yanabi^ Al-Mawda, 92.

8-     The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said, “Ali (A.S) is the Imam of the pious, the prince of believers, and the leader of the resplendent.” Mustadrak Al-Sahihain of Al-Hakim Al-Nisabori, 3/129; Kenz Al-Omal, 6/153.

9-     The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said, “Ali (A.S) is with the Qur’an, and the Qur’an is with Ali.” Al-Bukhari, 5/19; Muslim, 2/360; Al-Tirmidhi, 5/304; Mustadrak Al-Sahihain of Al-Hakim Al-Nisabori, 3/109; Ibn Majah, 1/28; Musnad Ahmad, 3/328.

10-  The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said, “Ali (A.S) is the door of my knowledge, and the one who will clarifies for my nation that which I was sent with.” Tafsir Al-Tabari, 3/171; Shawahid Al-Tanzil, 2/356; Al-Darr Al-Manthour, 6/379; Yanabi^ Al-Mawda, 61.

11-  The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said, “The position of Ali (A.S) amongst the people is like Surat Qul Hu Allahu Ahad in the Qur’an.” Muslim, 1/48; Al-Tirmidhi, 2/299; Al-Nisa’i, 27; Musnad Ahmad, 6/299; Ibn Al-Maghazeli, 191.

Al-Juwayni(1) reports that Abdullah ibn Abbas remarked that the Messenger of Allah (S) said, "I am the chief of the Prophets and ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib is the chief of successors, and after me my successors shall be twelve, the first of them being ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib and the last of them being Al Mahdi."

Al-Juwayni has also mentioned another tradition from Ibn 'Abbas (r.a.) that he narrates from the Messenger of Allah (S):

"Certainly my Caliphs and my legatees and the Proofs of Allah upon his creatures after me are twelve. The first of them is my brother and the last of them is my (grand) son."

He was asked: "O Messenger of Allah, who is your brother?"He said, "‘Ali ibn Abi Talib" Then they asked, "And who is your son?" The Holy Prophet (S) replied, "Al Mahdi, the one who will fill the earth with justice and equity like it would be brimming with injustice and tyranny. And by the One Who has raised me as a warner and a give of good tidings, even if a day remains for the life of this world, the Almighty Allah will prolong this day to an extent till he sends my son Mahdi, then he will make Ruhullah 'Isa ibn Maryam (a.s.) to descend and pray behind him (Mahdi). And the earth will be illuminated by his radiance. And his power will reach to the east and the west."

 

Al-Juwayni also narrates from his chain of narrators that the Messenger of Allah (S) informed:

"I and ‘Ali and Hasan and Husayn and nine of the descendants of Husayn are the purified ones and the infallible."(2)

1.Al-Dhahabi says in Tadhkirat al-Huffaz, vol. 4, p. 298, that Sadruddin Ibrahim bin Muhammad bin al-Hamawayh al-Juwayni al-Shafi'i was a great scholar of Hadith. Also see his biographical note in Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani, al-Durar al-kaminah, vol. 1, p. 67.

2.Al-Juwayni, Fara'id al-Simtayn, pg 160.

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The problem starts arising who will take the role of leadership during the ghayba of Imam Mahdi.  Does one person take the role of purifying everyone or is this a collective effort by scholars commanding to the good and forbidding the evil?  What about government? Should unjust leaders always be rulers or should people try to get just rulers to rule them? If so, what better way the picking the leaders.

 

 

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1-       This has already been stated by the prophet saww that "I am the chief of the Prophets and ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib is the chief of successors, and after me my successors shall be twelve, the first of them being ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib and the last of them being Al Mahdi." This has been decided by him so no one can foresee the wisdom beyond his words. Also the Quran does state:

 

وَمَا كَانَ لِمُؤْمِنٍ وَلَا مُؤْمِنَةٍ إِذَا قَضَى اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَمْرًا أَن يَكُونَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِمْ ۗ وَمَن يَعْصِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا مُّبِينًا

It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error. (33:36)

 

2-       This has been decided by the prophet as per Allah commands as the prophet saw does not say anything except a revelation, so the 12th imam from Ahl albauyt is purified one ie Al Mahdi, and he is to guide the ummah so no one can exist for the purpose of purification other than him. He is in ghayba (occultation) we cannot see him. He has been kept away from the ummah to save him as per plan of Allah swt. Just to mention that the tyrant rulers from ummah have martyred 11 imams from   Ahl albayt by sword or poison, Last Imam is saved from the eyes of the people likewise Hz Esa as who is last prophet in the children of Israel and he has been saved from them by Allah and he is also kept alive by the order of Allah. The prophet Esa as will come and say prayer after Imam Al Mahdi as.

 

3-       The Imam is kept purified by Allah swt for perfect purification. The purifying of people means to guide the people on religious matters with his knowledge and wisdom (conveyed to him by the prophet saw) enabling them to follow the truth in the religion. As he himself is kept away from all blemishes (ie Infallible) he is capable to lead the ummah.

 

4-       In the ghayba of the 12th Imam Al Mahdi, he declared 4 deputies to contact him during minor occultation, But after the death of the 4th deputy major occultation was started and no one can contact to him directly. However, as per the sayings of Imams the role of Fuqaha and Ulema in occultation is to convey the religious knowledge to the people by Ijtihad from the Quran and sayings of the prophet and Ahl albayt as.

 

5-       As the people from  Ummah have made bidaa in religion to select incapable leaders to run their affairs without any basis in Quran and tyrant rulers killed 11 imams from Ahl albayt so Allah swt has kept 12th Imam in ghayba away from eyes, This is a TEST for ummah whether it believes in and follow 12th Imam from Ahl albayt in ghayb  / unseen or not  (Believers believe in the unseen, Quran 2:2 , 2:3).

 

6-       The leaders and the government in ummah can be selected in the ghayba of the 12th Imam as per advice of the Fuqaha and Ulema.

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110
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A- Sunni brothers please quote the verse of Quran which states that the leader / imam / caliph (successor) after the prophet saww is chosen by the people (instead of Allah swt)?

 

B-

قُلْ إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللَّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah, then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." (3:31)

 

قُلْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ

Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers. (3:32)

 

Since the prophet is a leader in the religion obeying him is mandatory for Muslims. Also following him is the only way to obey Allah’s command.

 

 

كَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا فِيكُمْ رَسُولًا مِّنكُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتِنَا وَيُزَكِّيكُمْ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُم مَّا لَمْ تَكُونُوا تَعْلَمُونَ

Just as We have sent among you a messenger from yourselves reciting to you Our verses and purifying you and teaching you the Book and wisdom and teaching you that which you did not know. (2:151)

 

 

So the duties of the prophet (who is a leader and obeying him is mandatory) in the religion are outlined below:

 

1-     Reciting the verses of Quran to the people (with their complete knowledge)

2-     Purifying the people (since he is a purified one)

3-     Teaching the knowledge of book (that contains all the knowledge)

4-     Teaching the wisdom

5-     Teaching the knowledge of unknown

 

C- Since the prophet is the seal of prophet hood, no prophet can come after him. In order to meet these religious duties after the prophet were the leaders chosen by the people (3 caliphs) capable to lead the ummah?

 

Response on the issue will be appreciated..

 

(bismillah)

(salam)

 

About the verses you quoted: the Prophet (saw) did teach these to Muslims and the Muslims taught one another and taught those who came after them....

 

Yes, those leaders (or 3 caliphs as you call it) were capable and their amazing leadership proves it. Just reading about their leadership (even from non-Muslim sources) you will understand they were very capable to lead the Ummah and they very successful. You will not find a single Muslim ruler who can be compared to them. What they did for Islam was just unbelievable. May Allah be pleased with them. 

Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani
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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

About the verses you quoted: the Prophet (saw) did teach these to Muslims and the Muslims taught one another and taught those who came after them....

 

Yes, those leaders (or 3 caliphs as you call it) were capable and their amazing leadership proves it. Just reading about their leadership (even from non-Muslim sources) you will understand they were very capable to lead the Ummah and they very successful. You will not find a single Muslim ruler who can be compared to them. What they did for Islam was just unbelievable. May Allah be pleased with them. 

In term of what ?

 

Fir'aun is also capable deploying huge army to chase Musa as. So Fir'aun has the ability to lead people. But Allah ask Musa to come to Fir'aun.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

About the verses you quoted: the Prophet (saw) did teach these to Muslims and the Muslims taught one another and taught those who came after them....

 

Yes, those leaders (or 3 caliphs as you call it) were capable and their amazing leadership proves it. Just reading about their leadership (even from non-Muslim sources) you will understand they were very capable to lead the Ummah and they very successful. You will not find a single Muslim ruler who can be compared to them. What they did for Islam was just unbelievable. May Allah be pleased with them. 

 

I have started the thread with the verses of Quran as given below:

 

Sunni brothers please quote the verse of Quran which states that the leader / imam / caliph (successor) after the prophet saww is chosen by the people (instead of Allah swt)?  I await it.

 

 

كَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا فِيكُمْ رَسُولًا مِّنكُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتِنَا وَيُزَكِّيكُمْ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُم مَّا لَمْ تَكُونُوا تَعْلَمُونَ

Just as We have sent among you a messenger from yourselves reciting to you Our verses and purifying you and teaching you the Book and wisdom and teaching you that which you did not know. (2:151)

 

In the light of duties of the prophet how the caliphs selected  by the people were able to perform these after the prophet?
 

- Were 3 caliphs more knowledgeable about the Quran for Reciting it to the people (with its complete knowledge)?

 - Were they able to Purify the people (since they themselves were not purified ones)?

-  Were they able of Teaching the knowledge of book to the people (for its complete meaning)?

-  Were they able to teach the wisdom to the people?

- Were they able  to teach knowledge of unknown to the people?

 

The history proves they were not capable of performing these duties (as mentioned under post no. 4 & 5).

 

Regards.

Edited by skamran110
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I have started the thread with the verses of Quran as given below:

Sunni brothers please quote the verse of Quran which states that the leader / imam / caliph (successor) after the prophet saww is chosen by the people (instead of Allah swt)? I await it.

كَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا فِيكُمْ رَسُولًا مِّنكُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتِنَا وَيُزَكِّيكُمْ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُم مَّا لَمْ تَكُونُوا تَعْلَمُونَ

Just as We have sent among you a messenger from yourselves reciting to you Our verses and purifying you and teaching you the Book and wisdom and teaching you that which you did not know. (2:151)

In the light of duties of the prophet how the caliphs selected by the people were able to perform these after the prophet?

- Were 3 caliphs more knowledgeable about the Quran for Reciting it to the people (with its complete knowledge)?

- Were they able to Purify the people (since they themselves were not purified ones)?

- Were they able of Teaching the knowledge of book to the people (for its complete meaning)?

- Were they able to teach the wisdom to the people?

- Were they able to teach knowledge of unknown to the people?

The history proves they were not capable of performing these duties (as mentioned under post no. 4 & 5).

Regards.

"Sunni brothers please quote the verse of Quran which states that the leader / imam / caliph (successor) after the prophet saww is chosen by the people (instead of Allah swt)? I await it."

Please quote the verse of the quran which states that the leader/imam/caliph (successor) after an imam (12th) is chosen by the people (instead of Allah swt)? I await :)

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Talūt [as] wasn't even a Prophet, merely a king - and guess what?

 

Their Prophet said to them: "Allah hath appointed Talut as king over you. They said: "How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority, and he is not even gifted, with wealth in abundance?" He said: "Allah hath Chosen him above you," [2:247]

 

Every hujjah of Allah is appointed by him.

 

 

is chosen by the people (instead of Allah swt)? I await :)

 

Allah appointed our Imams [as], not us.

Edited by Ali al-Hadi
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Talūt [as] wasn't even a Prophet, merely a king - and guess what?

Their Prophet said to them: "Allah hath appointed Talut as king over you. They said: "How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority, and he is not even gifted, with wealth in abundance?" He said: "Allah hath Chosen him above you," [2:247]

Every hujjah of Allah is appointed by him.

Allah appointed our Imams [as], not us.

I don't think you understood my question, i was talking about those appointed nowadays AFTER The12th ie khamenei, your scholars etc please read the convo from the start Edited by Wisdom007
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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

In term of what ?

 

Fir'aun is also capable deploying huge army to chase Musa as. So Fir'aun has the ability to lead people. But Allah ask Musa to come to Fir'aun.

 

In terms of spreading the religion of Allah. In terms of following the footstep of the Prophet (saw) and spread his message and the message of his lord to the lands. Publishing and spreading the book of Allah. This what they did. 

 

Firaun was not spreading the religion of Allah. Firaun was calling people to worship him and stopping them from the way of Allah but the companions (or 3 caliphs as you call it) were calling people to Allah. Hope you can notice the difference here. 

 

 

 

I have started the thread with the verses of Quran as given below:

 

Sunni brothers please quote the verse of Quran which states that the leader / imam / caliph (successor) after the prophet saww is chosen by the people (instead of Allah swt)?  I await it.

 

 

كَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا فِيكُمْ رَسُولًا مِّنكُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتِنَا وَيُزَكِّيكُمْ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُم مَّا لَمْ تَكُونُوا تَعْلَمُونَ

Just as We have sent among you a messenger from yourselves reciting to you Our verses and purifying you and teaching you the Book and wisdom and teaching you that which you did not know. (2:151)

 

In the light of duties of the prophet how the caliphs selected  by the people were able to perform these after the prophet?
 

- Were 3 caliphs more knowledgeable about the Quran for Reciting it to the people (with its complete knowledge)?

 - Were they able to Purify the people (since they themselves were not purified ones)?

-  Were they able of Teaching the knowledge of book to the people (for its complete meaning)?

-  Were they able to teach the wisdom to the people?

- Were they able  to teach knowledge of unknown to the people?

 

The history proves they were not capable of performing these duties (as mentioned under post no. 4 & 5).

 

Regards.

 

- Yes, they were knowledgeable but they were not the only knowledgable ones.

- You have wrong understanding of the verse. The verse says to believers that Prophet (saw) reads you the Quran purifies you (while you were najis when in Jahiliya). 

- Yes, they were able to teach people the Quran. What do you mean "for its complete meaning"?

- Yes, they were able as they learned from the Prophet (saw). Again they were not the only ones who were able to teach. 

- Only Allah knows knowledge of the unseen (as explicitly mentioned in the Quran). However, Allah informed some knowledge of the unseen (as mentioned in Quran) to the Prophet (saw). 

 

The history (even according to non-Muslim sources) they were indeed capable of performing these. But I am not surprised when you say this because you only read one sided and negative history about them because thats the goal of the Imami Shia, show them as evil as you can. 

 

So the imam told you to do shura like they did for khamenei?

 

They do takfir of Sahaba for gathering and appointing a leader for themselves but Shia leaders today are doing the same thing i.e. Gather in their assembly of experts and appoint their supreme leader. 

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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

 

In terms of spreading the religion of Allah. In terms of following the footstep of the Prophet (saw) and spread his message and the message of his lord to the lands. Publishing and spreading the book of Allah. This what they did. 

 

Firaun was not spreading the religion of Allah. Firaun was calling people to worship him and stopping them from the way of Allah but the companions (or 3 caliphs as you call it) were calling people to Allah. Hope you can notice the difference here. 

 

Did they do as told in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Sulaym_ibn_Qays ?

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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

- Yes, they were knowledgeable but they were not the only knowledgable ones.

- You have wrong understanding of the verse. The verse says to believers that Prophet (saw) reads you the Quran purifies you (while you were najis when in Jahiliya). 

- Yes, they were able to teach people the Quran. What do you mean "for its complete meaning"?

- Yes, they were able as they learned from the Prophet (saw). Again they were not the only ones who were able to teach. 

- Only Allah knows knowledge of the unseen (as explicitly mentioned in the Quran). However, Allah informed some knowledge of the unseen (as mentioned in Quran) to the Prophet (saw). 

 

What are evidences for these claims? The evidence provided under post no. 4 & 5 prove your perceptions as false.

That’s why I have asked you to quote the verse for the legitimacy of the leaders / imams / caliphs’ selected by the people after the prophet which you are unable to provide.

 

 

The history (even according to non-Muslim sources) they were indeed capable of performing these. But I am not surprised when you say this because you only read one sided and negative history about them because thats the goal of the Imami Shia, show them as evil as you can. 

 

They do takfir of Sahaba for gathering and appointing a leader for themselves but Shia leaders today are doing the same thing i.e. Gather in their assembly of experts and appoint their supreme leader. 

So the imam told you to do shura like they did for khamenei?

 

Why you try to follow the history of Non Muslims to prove the legitimacy of people chosen caliphs, instead of verse of Quran  I have asked you to provide?

 

 You are misunderstood there was no Shura conducted for the Fuqaha and Ulema, Our purified Imams from the progeny of the prophet saww have advised to follow them for getting the religious matters based on Ijtihad from Quran and sayings of the prophet and Imams:

 

Below are the main traditions from Imams about it':

 

i) The Twelfth Imam issued a pronouncement (Tawqi) in reply to Ishaq b. Ya’qub via his second Saf’ir:

As for the events which will occur, turn to the narrators of our traditions, because they (the narrators) are my proof to you, while I am the proof of Allah to them” .( al-’Amili, al-Wasa’il, XVIII, 101; Bihar, LIII, 181; al-Khumayni, op. cit., 77).

 

ii) Al-Tabarsi mentions this tradition attributed to the eleventh Imam:

“It is obligatory for the populace to follow the jurist who refrains from committing wrong, mentions his faith, opposes carnal desire, and obeys Allah's command. (al-Tabarsi, al-Ihtijaj, II,. 263-4; al-’Amili, al-Wasa’il, XVIII, 94-5)”

 

iii) Al-Tabarsi reports another transmission on the authority of the tenth Imam concerning the role of the fuqaha':

After the occultation of your Qa'im a group of the ‘ulama' will call people to believe in his (al-Qa’im's) Imamate and defend his religion by using proofs sent by Allah, so that they might save the weak-minded faithful from either the deceptions of Satan and his followers, or the deceptions of the anti-’Alids (al-­Nawasib).

If none of these ‘ ulama' remain, then everyone will stray from the religion of Allah. However, as the pilot holds the rudder of the ship, the ‘ulama' will hold firmly onto the hearts of the weak-minded Shiites, preventing them from straying. Those ‘ulama' are the most excellent in the view of Allah the Exalted.(al-Tabarsi, al-Ihtijaj, II, 260).

 

Regards.

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They weren't chosen by the people, most of the people were attending the prophets funeral when Abo Bakr was declared caliph by a few other men who did not even attend the prophet's funeral.

 

It is not true. I will appreciate if you will bring single sound evidence for such claim.

 

 

How many people you need to wash body and shroud it? 15? 25? 150? Family of Prophet (s.a.s) was enough to do that.

 

 It is known that funeral prayer for prophet (s.a.s) was done by all. The people offered the funeral prayer for him (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) individually. They were not led in prayer by any imam; rather each person entered and prayed for him in the mosque. 

 

Ibn Abbas narrates:

“… and when they were finished with preparing him on Wednesday (Allah bless him and grant him peace) [for burial], they placed him on his bed, in his house, and the people entered upon the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and grant him peace) in small groups until they had finished; then they let in the women until they finished; then they let in the children, and no one led the people as an imam over the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and grant him peace)…” [ibn Majah, Sunan]

Ibn ‘Abbas also narrates:

“When the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) passed away, the men were admitted [into the house of 'Aisha] and they prayed upon him without anyone leading the prayer, individually, then they left, then they admitted the women, and they prayed upon him, then they admitted the children, and they prayed upon him, then they admitted the slaves, and they prayed upon him, individually; no one led them in prayers over the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace).” [al-Bayhaqi, Dalai'il al-Nubuwwah]

Abu ‘Aseeb the Companion (may Allah be pleased with him) said, “I witnessed the funeral prayer on the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and grant him peace).  The people asked, ‘How should we pray on him?’  He (one Companion) said, ‘Enter, all of you, in small groups at a time.’… so they would enter from *this* door and pray, then leave through the other door…” [Ahmad, Musnad]

These hadith, alongside many other transmitted narrations, from Malik, Ahmad, al-Baihaqi, Ibn Abi Shayba and others, and many other accounts in the books of Islamic history, such as Ibn Sa’d, Ibn Hisham, and others, all concur that the funeral prayer of the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) did take place in this unique way.

 

A narration of Salim ibn `Ubayd (may Allah be pleased with him) reveals what was decided, when after describing the final sickness and passing away of the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) and the confusion and shock that ensued, he ran to inform Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him), who with the Prophet’s (Allah bless him and grant him peace) permission was in a mosque near his wife’s home one mile away.

Abu Bakr arrived, wept and kissed the Prophet’s (Allah bless him and grant him peace) noble forehead. Salim narrates:

“… [The people] asked in consternation, ‘Oh Companion of the Messenger of Allah! Has the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and grant him peace) really been taken away [in death]?’  Abu Bakr replied, ‘Yes…’ And the people knew he had told the truth.  Then they asked, ‘Oh Companion of the Messenger of Allah!  Is the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and grant him peace) to be prayed over?’ He replied, ‘Yes.’

They asked, ‘And how?’ Abu Bakr said, ‘A group of people enters, they recite their takbirs [4 times] and pray, and they supplicate, then they leave, then [another] group enters, recites the takbirs, prays, supplicates, and then they leave, until all the people have entered.’

The people then asked, ‘Oh Companion of the Messenger of Allah! Is the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and grant him peace) to be buried?’  ‘Yes.’ he replied.  ‘Where?’ they asked.  He answered, ‘In the place where Allah took his soul, for Allah did not take his soul except in a place that is pure.’  And the people knew he had spoken the truth.  Then, Abu Bakr instructed them that his paternal relatives [and only them] should bathe him.’” [al-Tirmidhi, al-Shama'il]

‘Allamah al-Bayjuri, whilst explaining this hadeeth in his commentary on the Shama’il, notes that it was from divine wisdom that Abu Bakr was not present at the moment this great calamity struck, so he was able to think more clearly despite also being drowned in sorrow, unlike many other great Companions who were in a state of shock.

Even before his nomination to leadership, he was called upon to teach, and instructed the masses in a way which he could have only known through his deep understanding of the Prophetic will- not by any guessing or reasoning of his own.

The people were wondering whether the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) was to be prayed over, since the funeral prayer is normally a prayer of forgiveness and intercession for the deceased, but the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) was sinless.  Would he be bathed, even though he was pure in life and death?  Was he to be buried, or would he be raised to the heavens, or kept somewhere since his blessed body would never change states?

The answer was that he was to be washed, prayed over and buried because he was a part of his community, Allah bless him and grant him peace, and aside from some details and exceptions, he would share in his beloved community’s rulings, Allah bless him and grant him peace; this was a great honor to all of us till today, Alhamdulillah.

Imam al-Suyuti and al-Bayjuri both mentioned a narration from al-Hakim and al-Bazaar, and though there is a strong difference as to the degree of its weakness, it reinforces that this method of prayer, in fact the prayer itself, was not from independent reasoning, rather amongst final instructions to close family members when they had gathered in the house of ‘Aisha (Allah be well pleased with her) and they asked the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace):

“Who will pray over you?” The Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) replied, “When you have bathed me and shrouded me then place me on a bed, then leave me for some time, for the first one to pray on me shall be Gibril, then Mika`il, then Israfil, then the Angel of Death with his host; then, admit upon me group after group, then let them pray over me and send salams upon me with complete submission.” [al-Hakim, Mustadrak; al-Bazzaar, Musnad]

 

 

 

 

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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

 

 

 

The book is a fabrication. Many of your scholars don't even accept the book. Nice evidence you got there!

 

 

 

What are evidences for these claims? The evidence provided under post no. 4 & 5 prove your perceptions as false.

That’s why I have asked you to quote the verse for the legitimacy of the leaders / imams / caliphs’ selected by the people after the prophet which you are unable to provide.

 

 

 

Read their biographies. You will see how they ruled and how capable they were. 

 

Post 4 doesn't prove anything. You are assuming that only one person was knowledgeable and the rest were ignorant. You are wrong. Prophet (saw) didn't come to teach one person the religion. He came to teach the nation and his companions were the most knowledgeable. 

 

In Post 4 most of the narrations you quoted are FABRICATIONs and unreliable especially from point 5 and onwards. 

 

 

Why you try to follow the history of Non Muslims to prove the legitimacy of people chosen caliphs, instead of verse of Quran  I have asked you to provide?

 

I said "even according to non-Muslim historians". Why do you change your arguments? First you ask whether they were capable now you changed your argument and talking about their "legitimacy"? 

 

 

 

 

 

 You are misunderstood there was no Shura conducted for the Fuqaha and Ulema, Our purified Imams from the progeny of the prophet saww have advised to follow them for getting the religious matters based on Ijtihad from Quran and sayings of the prophet and Imams:

 

Below are the main traditions from Imams about it':

 

i) The Twelfth Imam issued a pronouncement (Tawqi) in reply to Ishaq b. Ya’qub via his second Saf’ir:

As for the events which will occur, turn to the narrators of our traditions, because they (the narrators) are my proof to you, while I am the proof of Allah to them” .( al-’Amili, al-Wasa’il, XVIII, 101; Bihar, LIII, 181; al-Khumayni, op. cit., 77).

 

ii) Al-Tabarsi mentions this tradition attributed to the eleventh Imam:

“It is obligatory for the populace to follow the jurist who refrains from committing wrong, mentions his faith, opposes carnal desire, and obeys Allah's command. (al-Tabarsi, al-Ihtijaj, II,. 263-4; al-’Amili, al-Wasa’il, XVIII, 94-5)”

 

iii) Al-Tabarsi reports another transmission on the authority of the tenth Imam concerning the role of the fuqaha':

After the occultation of your Qa'im a group of the ‘ulama' will call people to believe in his (al-Qa’im's) Imamate and defend his religion by using proofs sent by Allah, so that they might save the weak-minded faithful from either the deceptions of Satan and his followers, or the deceptions of the anti-’Alids (al-­Nawasib).

If none of these ‘ ulama' remain, then everyone will stray from the religion of Allah. However, as the pilot holds the rudder of the ship, the ‘ulama' will hold firmly onto the hearts of the weak-minded Shiites, preventing them from straying. Those ‘ulama' are the most excellent in the view of Allah the Exalted.(al-Tabarsi, al-Ihtijaj, II, 260).

 

Regards.

 

 

First we are not talking about your Ulama or Fuqaha we are talking about Shia political and religious leader in Iran, "Imam Ali Khamenei". Weren't leaders supposed to be appointed by Allah and be infallible?  Was Khamenei appointed by Allah and is he infallible?

 

If your 12th Imam can leave without successor and leave with you infallibles then why can't the Prophet of Allah (saw) do the same? 

 

Secondly, the issue of Ulama and Fuqaha contradicts with your Imami beliefs because your beliefs say the guides after Prophet (saw) must be infallible so they don't make mistake and led people astray but then here you have narrations talking about following the fallible scholars after 12th Imam. You criticised the Sunnis for following the fallible Sahaba and Imams and leaving the "infallible" but since 256 you are doing the same. 

 

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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

Post 4 doesn't prove anything. You are assuming that only one person was knowledgeable and the rest were ignorant. You are wrong. Prophet (saw) didn't come to teach one person the religion. He came to teach the nation and his companions were the most knowledgeable. 

 

In Post 4 most of the narrations you quoted are FABRICATIONs and unreliable especially from point 5 and onwards. 

 

I said "even according to non-Muslim historians". Why do you change your arguments? First you ask whether they were capable now you changed your argument and talking about their "legitimacy"? 

 

 

No historical evidences are provided from your side to prove any of your claims.  The post no 4 certainly pinches you I agree because it bursts your fantasy. You are unable to challenge the truth exposed by the post no. 5 about infallible imams from the progeny of the prophet saw.

 

As per your understanding, 3 caliphs were more knowledgeable than the progeny of the prophet saw? If yes then justify it with evidences.

 

I quote again my post that I have mentioned at the start:

 

Sunni brothers please quote the verse of Quran which states that the leader / imam / caliph (successor) after the prophet saww is chosen by the people (instead of Allah swt)?  I await it.

 

 

كَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا فِيكُمْ رَسُولًا مِّنكُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتِنَا وَيُزَكِّيكُمْ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُم مَّا لَمْ تَكُونُوا تَعْلَمُونَ

Just as We have sent among you a messenger from yourselves reciting to you Our verses and purifying you and teaching you the Book and wisdom and teaching you that which you did not know. (2:151)

 

In the light of duties of the prophet how the caliphs selected  by the people were able to perform these after the prophet?

 

- Were 3 caliphs more knowledgeable about the Quran for Reciting it to the people (with its complete knowledge)?

 - Were they able to Purify the people (since they themselves were not purified ones)?

-  Were they able of Teaching the knowledge of book to the people (for its complete meaning)?

-  Were they able to teach the wisdom to the people?

- Were they able  to teach knowledge of unknown to the people?

 

The history proves they were not capable of performing these duties (as mentioned under post nos. 4 & 5).

 

Why you try to follow the history of Non Muslims to prove the legitimacy of people chosen caliphs, instead of verse of Quran (I have asked you to provide)?

 

Brother, Provide the verse of Quran, otherwise the claim of selecting and following the fallible leaders / imams / caliphs after the prophet chosen by the people is considered as BIDAA in the religion.  

 

First we are not talking about your Ulama or Fuqaha we are talking about Shia political and religious leader in Iran, "Imam Ali Khamenei". Weren't leaders supposed to be appointed by Allah and be infallible?  Was Khamenei appointed by Allah and is he infallible?

 

If your 12th Imam can leave without successor and leave with you infallibles then why can't the Prophet of Allah (saw) do the same? 

 

Secondly, the issue of Ulama and Fuqaha contradicts with your Imami beliefs because your beliefs say the guides after Prophet (saw) must be infallible so they don't make mistake and led people astray but then here you have narrations talking about following the fallible scholars after 12th Imam. You criticised the Sunnis for following the fallible Sahaba and Imams and leaving the "infallible" but since 256 you are doing the same. 

 

 

 

 

 

They do takfir of Sahaba for gathering and appointing a leader for themselves but Shia leaders today are doing the same thing i.e. Gather in their assembly of experts and appoint their supreme leader. 

 

No body is doing takfir of any one. This is the matter of religion that we are discussing.

 

I do not consider Ayat ullah Ali Khamenai to be representing the whole Shia (with due apology with the members on Shiachat). However, the making of comparison with the selection of the leader / imam / caliphs after the prophet is no way comparable to the selection of the Khamenei. The following are the reasons I quote for clarify:

 

1-      The selection of the leader / imam / after the prophet is matter of religion directly related to Allah and the prophet saw. Allah himself chooses the prophets, Imams and leaders after the prophet. I quote the following verses as evidence of it:

Shakir

And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalifa,  (2:30)

Shakir

And their prophet said to them: Surely Allah has raised Talut to be a king over you. They said: How can he hold kingship over us while we have a greater right to kingship than he, and he has not been granted an abundance of wealth? He said: Surely Allah has chosen him in preference to you, and He has increased him abundantly in knowledge and physique, and Allah grants His kingdom to whom He pleases, and Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing. (2:247)

Shakir

And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications. (32:24)

 

2-      The selection of the khamenai is only the issue of a group of people (particularly related to Iran) not for the whole Shia community.

3-The prophet saww is a purified one and he himself has not been chosen by the people, the leader after him cannot be selected by Shura / consultation.

 

4-      If you think otherwise please quote the verse of Quran that people can chose the leader / imam / caliphs after the prophet.

 

5-      While Ayat ullah Ali Khameni is the included in Ulema and Fuqaha, and as per sayings our imams we are to follow ulema in ghayba of 12th Imam for the religious matters based on Ijihad from Quran and the sayings of the prophet and Ahl albayat as.

 

This has already been stated by the prophet saww that "I am the chief of the Prophets and ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib is the chief of successors, and after me my successors shall be twelve, the first of them being ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib and the last of them being Al Mahdi." This has been decided by him so no one can foresee the wisdom beyond his words. Our Imam is Alive and in occultation present on this earth so there is no need of any infallible in his presence. Also the Quran does state:

 

وَمَا كَانَ لِمُؤْمِنٍ وَلَا مُؤْمِنَةٍ إِذَا قَضَى اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَمْرًا أَن يَكُونَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِمْ ۗ وَمَن يَعْصِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا مُّبِينًا

It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error. (33:36)

 

Regards.

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What is the proof of its fabrication ?

 

(salam)

 

It's true. This book is not actually a source that can be relied on [even though 'fabricated' might be an exaggeration]. Sheikh al-Mufeed said in his Tasheeh al I'tiqādāt al-Imamīyyah:

 

هذا الكتاب غير موثوق به ، ولا يجوز العمل على أكثره ، وقد حصل فيه تخليط وتدليس ، فينبغي للمتدين أن يجتنب العمل بكل ما فيه ، ولا يعول على جملته

 

This book (Kitab Sulaym) is not reliable, and it is not permissible to act upon most of it, and confusion and tadlees has occurred in it, so the pious should not act upon anything that that is in it (at all), and not rely on what is written in it.

 

If certain narrations in the book can be backed up by other, reliable sources, then it can be considered, but generally isn't a source that should be referred to.

 

But if you're talking about Abu Bakr and 'Umar, there are plenty of reliable ahadeeth cursing both of them.

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(salam)

 

It's true. This book is not actually a source that can be relied on [even though 'fabricated' might be an exaggeration]. Sheikh al-Mufeed said in his Tasheeh al I'tiqādāt al-Imamīyyah:

 

هذا الكتاب غير موثوق به ، ولا يجوز العمل على أكثره ، وقد حصل فيه تخليط وتدليس ، فينبغي للمتدين أن يجتنب العمل بكل ما فيه ، ولا يعول على جملته

 

This book (Kitab Sulaym) is not reliable, and it is not permissible to act upon most of it, and confusion and tadlees has occurred in it, so the pious should not act upon anything that that is in it (at all), and not rely on what is written in it.

 

If certain narrations in the book can be backed up by other, reliable sources, then it can be considered, but generally isn't a source that should be referred to.

 

But if you're talking about Abu Bakr and 'Umar, there are plenty of reliable ahadeeth cursing both of them.

Is the explanation from Shaykh al-Mufeed (I know 0 of him, so i do not believe) only ?

 

Islam has already 1400 years more but still have problem with history. You are all fighting each other. So be happy with fighting and killing each other.

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The three were not choosed by Prophet Muhammad (saws) and Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì as Imams (Leaders) to lead. They made themselves leaders of their own system and others accepted them and others not.

Yes, they (Abu Bakar, Umar and Utsman) are not Ma'sum.

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The discussion conducted so far indicates clearly that the 3 caliphs were neither appointed by Allah nor by the prophet.

They were only chosen by the people at their own (against the verses of Quran as referred in post no 22, Sr no. 1).

Also there is no verse yet quoted from the sunni friends that people can choose leaders / imam / caliphs /successors after the prophet (instead of Allah).

 

To proceed further the following verse is mentioned:

(4:58. Verily, Allah commands that you should render back the trusts to those, to whom they are due; and that when you judge between men, you judge with just ice. Verily, how excellent is the teaching which He (Allah) gives you! Truly, Allah is Ever All-Hearer, All-Seer. )

 

So Allah commands that the trusts be returned to their rightful owners. The prophet saww is an example for the Muslims.

 

لَّقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِّمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often. (33:21)

 

He is also known as As-sadiq and Al-ameen. Thus confirming that he has certainly given the trust of the leadership of ummah after him to the rightful leaders who are purified / infallible, and they are capable of leading the ummah through their knowledge and wisdom in all the matters.  They are most virtuous after the prophet saww, They are twelve successors, the 1st one is Ali ibne Ali as and the 12th one is Imam Al Mahdi as. (Ref post no. 5)

 

Moving further to the discussion with the following verse:

 

وَجَعَلْنَا مِنْهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا لَمَّا صَبَرُوا ۖ وَكَانُوا بِآيَاتِنَا يُوقِنُونَ

Shakir

And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command (authority) when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications. (32:24)

 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ ۖ فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

Shakir

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority (by Allah) from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end (4:59)

 

So in the light of above verses it is concluded clearly that the Imams (أَئِمَّةً ) made by the authority of  Allah (بِأَمْرِنَا) are charged with authority by Allah (َأُولِي الْأَمْرِ).

 

.A-    Duties of the prophet

 

كَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا فِيكُمْ رَسُولًا مِّنكُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتِنَا وَيُزَكِّيكُمْ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُم مَّا لَمْ تَكُونُوا تَعْلَمُونَ

Just as We have sent among you a messenger from yourselves reciting to you Our verses and purifying you and teaching you the Book and wisdom and teaching you that which you did not know. (2:151)

 

The prophet is to be obeyed in All circumstances.

 

B-    Ulil Amr do have the same authority as that of prophet so they are capable leaders to lead the ummah in all the matters after him (the prophet) for the duties of the prophet saww. The verse (4:59) does indicate that both the prophet and the Ulil amr should have the same characteristics as they do have the same authority, and they are the purified / infallible members of the progeny of the prophet. (Refer post no. 5)

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110
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Overview of the discussion conducted so far for the topic about 3 caliphs chosen by the people, it is concluded as given below:


 


SUNNI SAY:


1.     They were knowledgeable but they were not the only knowledgeable ones.                Evidence Nil


2.     The verse says to believers that Prophet (saw) reads you the Quran purifies you (while you were najis when in            Jahiliya).              Evidence Nil


3.     They were able to teach people the Quran. (with its complete knowledge)               Evidence Nil


4.     They were able as they learned from the Prophet (saw).                                           Evidence Nil


5.     The history (even according to non-Muslim sources) they were indeed capable of performing these                              Evidence Nil


6.     Most of the narrations you quoted are FABRICATIONs and unreliable especially from point 5 and onwards.                 Evidence Nil


7.    1 irrelevant post by Abu Rumaysah


 


       Evidence quoted Verse of Quran Nil,, Hadith / narration Nil


 


SHIAS SAY:


1.    Sunni brothers please quote the verse of Quran which states that the leader / imam / caliph (successor) after the prophet saww is chosen by the people (instead of Allah swt)? No verse quoted yet. by Sunni.


2.    Everyone knows that the caliphs who succeeded the Messenger of God, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, knew very little concerning the ordinances of Islam and the religious needs of the people. Evidence quoted 3 hadiths


3.    The Quran and hadith describes the Leaders capable of Leading the ummah by the following: ie Ahl albayat and pure Imams from progeny of the prop[het saw.  Evidence quoted Reference of 5 verses and 11 hadiths


4.    As per sunni understanding, 3 caliphs were more knowledgeable than the progeny of the prophet saw? If yes then justify it with evidences. But no historical evidence was brought for discussion.


5.    Allah himself chooses the prophets, Imams and leaders after the prophet.  Evidence 3 verses


6.    Also it is inferred that 3 caliphs have no knowledge about the things people do not know ie unseen


7.    Our 12th Imam is Alive and in occultation present on this earth so there is no need of any infallible in his presence.      Evidence 1 haidth and 1 verse


8.    Imams made by Allah authority are Ulil Amr to be followed by the ummah (instead of 3 caliphs). Evidence 2 verses.


 


       Evidence quoted verse of Quran 6, Reference of verse 5, hadiths 15


 


Conclusion:


 


Sunni friends are unable to provide the verse of Quran, for the validity of the claim that people can choose the leaders / imams / caliphs (successors) after the prophet (instead of Allah). Thus 3 caliphs are not capable and legitimate leaders / imams / caliphs after the prophet saww to lead the ummah.


 


 


Regards.


Edited by skamran110
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I am going to discuss them from a purely political POV here.

1) Abu Bakr: politically capable ruler. Also wanted to give fatima her property. Ali® did not foght Abu Bakr so lets leave at that.

Final Verdict: let Allah judge. If he was good, he will get the rewards. And the vice versa.

2) Umr: Always leaned on the extreme side of Islam. Had a love for war and conquest. It was not right for him to attack Persia since Islam professes Dawah. But the end result was good. Persians adopted Islam.

I know that Shias malign him for his extreme behaviour and his apparent lack of respect for the Prophet(S) but Ali® worked with him in court.

Same final verdict as above.

3) Othman- historically an incapable ruler. Corruption was rife during his time. Ali® left court and even aisa began talking against him(read the latter from wikipedia so cud be wrong). However big pluspoint is that he composed the first written Quran. Again, let Allah judge.

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I know that Shias malign him for his extreme behaviour and his apparent lack of respect for the Prophet(S) but Ali® worked with him in court.

Same final verdict as above.

 

There is a difference between 'worked with' and 'corrected'. Umar had a clear inability to issue religious verdicts - for example, there is the hadeeth in Saheeh Muslim where a man was in a state of junub, he had no water, so he asked 'Umar what to do. 'Umar told him not to pray. 'Ammar [ra] who was present, corrected 'Umar, reminding him of tayammum. People like Imam 'Ali [as] and Ammar [ra] wouldn't just sit around if their caliph of the time was unable to issue basic religious verdicts to the people. For example, there is the following hadeeth, present in Sunni sources as well (in a similar form), in which Imam 'Ali [as] corrects 'Umar's blunder:

 

 

 [81] 11 ـ وفي ( الخصال ): عن الحسن بن محمد السكوني، عن الحضرمي، عن ابراهيم بن أبي معاوية، عن أبيه، عن الأعمش، عن أبي ظبيان قال: أتي عمر بامرأة مجنونة قد فجرت فأمر برجمها، فقال علي ( عليه السلام ): أما علمت أن القلم يرفع عن ثلاثة: عن الصبي حتى يحتلم، وعن المجنون حتى يفيق، وعن النائم حتى يستيقظ؟!

 

`Umar came upon an insane woman who had fornicated, so he commanded her stoning.  So `Ali عليه السلام said: Do you not know that the pen has been lifted from three: from the youth until he has a nocturnal emission, from the insane until he regains consciousness, and from the sleeper until he awakes?

 

[Wasa'il al-Shee'ah]

Edited by Ali al-Hadi
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Narrated Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiya:

I asked my father ('Ali bin Abi Talib), "Who are the best people after Allah's Rasool Sallahu alaihi wassallam ?" He said, "Abu Bakr." I asked, "Who then?" He said, "Then 'Umar. " I was afraid he would say "Uthman, so I said, "Then you? He said, "I am only an ordinary person.

Reference

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 20: (Sahih Bukhari)

Finding Abu Bakr(R.A), when Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is not present

Narrated Jubair bin Mutim: A woman came to the Prophet who ordered her to return to him again. She said, "What if I came and did not find you?" as if she wanted to say, "If I found you dead?" The Prophet said, "If you should not find me, go to Abu Bakr."

Reference

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 11: (Sahih Bukhari)

Sayyidna Abu Bakr (RA) as a Successor

Ibn Abu Mulaika reported: I heard A'isha as saying and she was asked as to whom Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) would have nominated his successor if he had to nominate one at all. She said: Abu Bakr. It was said to her: Then whom after Abu Bakr? She said: Umar. It was said to her. Then whom after 'Umar? She said: Abu Ubaida b. Jarrab, and then she kept quiet at this.

Reference

Book 031, Number 5877: Sahih Muslim

Best Man among the Companions(R.A)

Narrated Ibn 'Umar(r.a):

We used to compare the people as to who was better during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle .We used to regard Abu Bakr(r.a) as the best, then 'Umar(r.a), and then 'Uthman(r.a) .

Reference

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 57, Number 7

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Narrated Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiya:

I asked my father ('Ali bin Abi Talib), "Who are the best people after Allah's Rasool Sallahu alaihi wassallam ?" He said, "Abu Bakr." I asked, "Who then?" He said, "Then 'Umar. " I was afraid he would say "Uthman, so I said, "Then you? He said, "I am only an ordinary person.

Reference

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 20: (Sahih Bukhari)

Finding Abu Bakr(R.A), when Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is not present

Narrated Jubair bin Mutim: A woman came to the Prophet who ordered her to return to him again. She said, "What if I came and did not find you?" as if she wanted to say, "If I found you dead?" The Prophet said, "If you should not find me, go to Abu Bakr."

Reference

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 11: (Sahih Bukhari)

Sayyidna Abu Bakr (ra) as a Successor

Ibn Abu Mulaika reported: I heard A'isha as saying and she was asked as to whom Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) would have nominated his successor if he had to nominate one at all. She said: Abu Bakr. It was said to her: Then whom after Abu Bakr? She said: Umar. It was said to her. Then whom after 'Umar? She said: Abu Ubaida b. Jarrab, and then she kept quiet at this.

Reference

Book 031, Number 5877: Sahih Muslim

Best Man among the Companions(R.A)

Narrated Ibn 'Umar(r.a):

We used to compare the people as to who was better during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle .We used to regard Abu Bakr(r.a) as the best, then 'Umar(r.a), and then 'Uthman(r.a) .

Reference

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 57, Number 7

Ok, how to reconcialate with the Shi'a tenet ?

 

Do you agree to check the shahih-ness of all hadis, but I am not whatsoever an expert in Ilmu Hadis.

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I am going to discuss them from a purely political POV here.

1) Abu Bakr: politically capable ruler. Also wanted to give fatima her property. Ali® did not foght Abu Bakr so lets leave at that.

Final Verdict: let Allah judge. If he was good, he will get the rewards. And the vice versa.

2) Umr: Always leaned on the extreme side of Islam. Had a love for war and conquest. It was not right for him to attack Persia since Islam professes Dawah. But the end result was good. Persians adopted Islam.

I know that Shias malign him for his extreme behaviour and his apparent lack of respect for the Prophet(S) but Ali® worked with him in court.

Same final verdict as above.

3) Othman- historically an incapable ruler. Corruption was rife during his time. Ali® left court and even aisa began talking against him(read the latter from wikipedia so cud be wrong). However big pluspoint is that he composed the first written Quran. Again, let Allah judge.

1. Define me what is an Islamic political capable ruler. About Fadak, i don't think it is reasonable to conclude that Fatimah (a.s) the daughter of Prophet Muhammad (saws) doesn't knows her Islamic rights. Because there were two different conflict with Abu Bakr and Fatimah (a.s) , it means some one was wrong.

 

 

 

Sayyidna Abu Bakr  (ra) as a Successor

Ibn Abu Mulaika reported: I heard A'isha as saying and she was asked as to whom Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) would have nominated his successor if he had to nominate one at all. She said: Abu Bakr. It was said to her: Then whom after Abu Bakr? She said: Umar. It was said to her. Then whom after 'Umar? She said: Abu Ubaida b. Jarrab, and then she kept quiet at this.

Reference

Book 031, Number 5877: Sahih Muslim

Amazing really, they talked about the candidates of successor of Prophet Muhammad (saws), but instead there were none choosed by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. So they created their own (Out of need, If it was for need, then why Prophet Did not leave successor?) and implied the title of Successor of Prophet to Abu Bakr. Then the next one was Umar, The Successor of Abu Bakr choosed by Abu Bakr himself.

Edited by Dhulfikar
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