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In the Name of God بسم الله
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Abd az Zahra

Is It Impossible For God To Not Exist?

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Your post is a straw man argument riddled with exaggerated nonsense.
 
"Nothing shall ever happen to us except what Allah has ordained for us."
 
"No calamity occurs on earth nor in yourselves but it is inscribed in the Book of Decrees before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allah." 
 
You may be happy with a God that hastily intervenes to save a handful of Jews from Pharaoh and on the other hand decrees an agonizing death for millions of innocent people.
I have problems with reconciling that to a Benevolent God. 
 
*

 

 

Allah(swt) is the Creator of all in this universe, HE has the power to do all, If He says “Be” it is. Nothing happens with out his permission. But you also have Free Will , with HIS permission to deny HIM as your creator. Its a very simple, you were making it look like its some enigma or a riddle that needs to be solved and people are misguided as they can’t fathom this simple fact.

 

To philosophize is to make a very simple thing or concept make it look very difficult. I just tried to uncomplicate it by giving you a breakdown of your grievances , which ones may be legit and which ones are an intellectual mirage.

 

Simple question is, Where did you come from, Why are you here, and Where are you going? These will define your purpose in Life on Earth.

 

1) If you are here on Earth, by chance, you have no past or future- you only live for today.

 

2) If you are here on Earth, God sent you here, You live by the Will of God- in your case its predestined- so you can’t believe in the day of judgement- whats after this life for you?  Are you any different than the Earth you live on, Sun and the moon also follow/move in predestined way-by the Will of God but have no Freewill.

 

3) If you are here on Earth, By God's will, You live according to God's Will-Which includes your Freedom to choose between in your actions(right and wrong) and both have been made clear to you, and you are judged at the end.

 

If you can't understand/comprehend/resolve above information about yourself, why do you think you have the ability to question/understand more complex questions?

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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If we take this on a personal level, you are right. I do not believe most conversations about God have any (logical) worth. We are discussing things that we cannot understand. I do find arguments about God futile, not only because no one wins but because we aren't really saying anything to each other.

 

Nonetheless, I do participate. Language does have the ability to make others see something that logic cannot touch on. Also, for my own sake. But let me address your point.

 

 

Well, for that matter, how do you know? 

 

Funny how God 'transcends our understanding' only when a believer is presented with a problem or contradiction. 
 
If something is unknowable in human terms then to what degree can you claim anything about it? 
 
If we lack the "perspective" to understand God's logic, there's no way to prove that God is logical.
If God's logic is beyond our comprehension, then that is no different to our perspective than a God who is not logical. 
 
Further if God is beyond laws, then it has the potential of being lawless and thus wayward.
God could be Benevolent, Malevolent or Indifferent.
 
And yet Believers RELY completely on God acting in a logical way:
God is good; he will certainly set everything right. If I behave myself he'll send me to Heaven. 
 
Wslm.
*

 

 

I can state with certainty that you do not know what 'knowing' is. What does it take to know something? If you answer with your opinion, I will not accept it. You will need to provide 'logic' behind what you say. If you are able to accomplish this, I would take your argument more seriously. Don't get me wrong, this is a question that relates to every single human being, not just you or atheists. But this has no definitive answer, that is the problem.

 

Let's look at it a different way

 

1) Claims are that God is all powerful etc.

2) There is suffering in the world

3) An all powerful God would not allow suffering

4) God does not exist/or is not God

 

I won't try to argue the validity of the argument because arguments can always be worded differently. Let us look at the feasibility. 3 is an incredibly subjective claim which almost not theist accepts - but all atheists do. There is not an argument to show WHY an all powerful God would not allow people to suffer simply on the basis that He could make them not suffer. This isn't an 'obvious' thing because many people see value in suffering - as do I. You can ask a Monk and they will tell you suffering is caused by you and only you. I do not agree with this, but you see my point?

 

Ah that was great right there at the beginning ^. For incognito, you mentioned that death is not punishment in most cases. I can in part understand this but...the pain and suffering that occurs in many deaths...it's a bit difficult to make the case that this isn't punishment. Is the sinking of the titanic and the horrid stories of great losses and struggles for life something that we generally consider a good thing?

This is one of, and I am a believer in God, but for me, one thing that I find difficult with some religious ideas is that, people who defend the idea of having a good religious moral basis, sometimes use religion to bend what appears to be moral truth, to suit their beliefs. Something like murder can be seen as justified in some cases due to religious beliefs. Or ya know, suicide bombings, things of that nature...

 

On what basis do you feel pain/suffering is a punishment? When you work out at the gym, does your body not ache? But does it not get stronger and faster each time you do it?

 

I find it absurd to relate pain to punishment and I see no link between the two. But to even have this conversation you must already have an idea of what your god is like - and that is something I do not know about you.

 

I would not consider suffering itself as a good thing - and no one should (except a sadist probably). It is what suffering can allow a human being to do that is beautiful. Keep in mind that suffering is not limited to physical pain. Suffering makes a human humble, appreciative and understanding. Like Quistant, you can ask why does God have to do this through suffering and not just give us those qualities regardless, but that is an absurd question which goes beyond the realm of what any human being can tell you. The nature of the God we are discussing limits our ability to ask/answer certain questions, this being one of them.

 

On a personal level, I do not believe we understand exactly what God means by 'punishment'. Our idea of punishment seems to that you wronged somewhere and you need to suffer for what you did. Perhaps God's idea of punishment is that you have wronged yourself and through suffering you will truly realise the wrong you did. But this is just me.

 

As for your last paragraph, why do you limit to to religious folk? Why not 'mentally insane' or 'patriotism' or anything else. Almost anything can be used in order to murder. You may have just been caught up with the media which makes you think this way.

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On what basis do you feel pain/suffering is a punishment? When you work out at the gym, does your body not ache? But does it not get stronger and faster each time you do it?

 

I find it absurd to relate pain to punishment and I see no link between the two. But to even have this conversation you must already have an idea of what your god is like - and that is something I do not know about you.

 

I would not consider suffering itself as a good thing - and no one should (except a sadist probably). It is what suffering can allow a human being to do that is beautiful. Keep in mind that suffering is not limited to physical pain. Suffering makes a human humble, appreciative and understanding. Like Quistant, you can ask why does God have to do this through suffering and not just give us those qualities regardless, but that is an absurd question which goes beyond the realm of what any human being can tell you. The nature of the God we are discussing limits our ability to ask/answer certain questions, this being one of them.

 

On a personal level, I do not believe we understand exactly what God means by 'punishment'. Our idea of punishment seems to that you wronged somewhere and you need to suffer for what you did. Perhaps God's idea of punishment is that you have wronged yourself and through suffering you will truly realise the wrong you did. But this is just me.

 

As for your last paragraph, why do you limit to to religious folk? Why not 'mentally insane' or 'patriotism' or anything else. Almost anything can be used in order to murder. You may have just been caught up with the media which makes you think this way.

 

"On what basis do you feel pain/suffering is a punishment? When you work out at the gym, does your body not ache? But does it not get stronger and faster each time you do it?"

 

Depending on the suffering, we may be talking about a disease for example.  And with some diseases, people dont actually grow stronger.  They grow progressively weaker, and life becomes more and more stressful or even painful, until they die in pain.  When i go to the gym, yes my muscles ache a bit, but i take a warm shower, eat a giant cheeseburger, and i feel like a million dollars in a couple days.

 

When i get sick with a horrid disease, there is no big delicious steak, there is no warm comforting shower. There is only pain and suffering until death.  There is no legitimate comparison of the two...

 

From a naturalistic standpoint, you could make a better case for disease being justified.  From a...God, the being who took down the oppressive egyptions with locusts and who...ya know, sprouted infinite amounts of fish and bread for the hungry... you cant really think or argue the same way.

 

Your God, meaning how you view God, can wiggle out of the problem of evil, simply because you can transform your belief into something that suits you. But this is not to say that the problem of evil doesnt apply to many other peoples "Gods".  And ill say the same for myself.  I can transform my own belief of God, in my head. But even if this problem of evil doesnt appear to apply to my own belief, id say its still a very reasonable argument, with respect to the beliefs of many others.

 

For your statement there in response to quisant, i dont know what you mean.

 

Its true, there are insane people who come up with crazy ways of justifying murder.  At the moment though, here in shia chat where religion is somewhat of a focal point of most topics, its easy to look at a group like ISIS and say...ok, here is a group that seems to be confusing pain with pleasure, and unrighteous murder, with justice.  And this is occurring, ah...because the nature of God (or in all honesty, perhaps a lack of God) really isnt clear at all and people are...basically misunderstanding God (assuming God exists). And this isnt just...a minority.  We are likely talking about millions upon millions of people who have false beliefs. Which likely includes the vast majority of muslims and even shia in particular.

 

The problem of evil doesnt negate any sort of God, but it certainly negates the existence of a particular belief in God that appears to be quite common.

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If we take this on a personal level, you are right. I do not believe most conversations about God have any (logical) worth. We are discussing things that we cannot understand. I do find arguments about God futile, not only because no one wins but because we aren't really saying anything to each other.

 

Nonetheless, I do participate. Language does have the ability to make others see something that logic cannot touch on. Also, for my own sake. But let me address your point.

 

I can state with certainty that you do not know what 'knowing' is. What does it take to know something? If you answer with your opinion, I will not accept it. You will need to provide 'logic' behind what you say. If you are able to accomplish this, I would take your argument more seriously. Don't get me wrong, this is a question that relates to every single human being, not just you or atheists. But this has no definitive answer, that is the problem.

 

Let's look at it a different way

 

1) Claims are that God is all powerful etc.

2) There is suffering in the world

3) An all powerful God would not allow suffering

4) God does not exist/or is not God

 

I won't try to argue the validity of the argument because arguments can always be worded differently. Let us look at the feasibility. 3 is an incredibly subjective claim which almost not theist accepts - but all atheists do. There is not an argument to show WHY an all powerful God would not allow people to suffer simply on the basis that He could make them not suffer. This isn't an 'obvious' thing because many people see value in suffering - as do I. You can ask a Monk and they will tell you suffering is caused by you and only you. I do not agree with this, but you see my point?

 

 

 

You are digressing wildly and I don't understand why. 
 
You and some monks might enjoy suffering but I can assure you that the vast majority of people do not enjoy drowning, burning or starving to death; I find it absurd that you should be in denial of the obvious.
 
The 'Problem of evil' is not something that I invented; it is over two thousand years old,  it is also called the Epicurean paradox and it goes like this:
 
'Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?'
 
 
It does not disprove the existence of God but in my opinion it disproves the existence of a Tri-omni God.
 
In my post no.24  I made  this point quite clearly:
 
I only argue that the amount of suffering is incompatible with God's 'supposed' loving nature as claimed by religious philosophy. 
An Omniscient, Omnipotent, Benevolent God cannot exist because the attributes are incompatible. 
 
(Thank you iCumbrian for understanding this; whilst my English is improving well, my communication skills are not as good as yours.)
 
If you do not agree with it, let's agree to disagree but please note  to the present day, all theodicies have failed to explain why a 'good God would create evil, meaning that the existence of evil is simply incompatible with the existence of a ‘Good God’ 
 
Wslm
*

Allah(swt) is the Creator of all in this universe, HE has the power to do all, If He says “Be” it is. Nothing happens with out his permission. But you also have Free Will , with HIS permission to deny HIM as your creator. Its a very simple, you were making it look like its some enigma or a riddle that needs to be solved and people are misguided as they can’t fathom this simple fact.

 

To philosophize is to make a very simple thing or concept make it look very difficult. I just tried to uncomplicate it by giving you a breakdown of your grievances , which ones may be legit and which ones are an intellectual mirage.

 

Simple question is, Where did you come from, Why are you here, and Where are you going? These will define your purpose in Life on Earth.

 

1) If you are here on Earth, by chance, you have no past or future- you only live for today.

 

2) If you are here on Earth, God sent you here, You live by the Will of God- in your case its predestined- so you can’t believe in the day of judgement- whats after this life for you?  Are you any different than the Earth you live on, Sun and the moon also follow/move in predestined way-by the Will of God but have no Freewill.

 

3) If you are here on Earth, By God's will, You live according to God's Will-Which includes your Freedom to choose between in your actions(right and wrong) and both have been made clear to you, and you are judged at the end.

 

If you can't understand/comprehend/resolve above information about yourself, why do you think you have the ability to question/understand more complex questions?

 

I don't know why you want to engage with me...but here we go.
Don't forget that interacting with a non believer may be infectious. :)
 
Each one of us stands alone in the midst of the Earth,
pierced by a ray of Sunshine and it is quickly evening.
 
I am OK with there being no plan, no purpose, and no rhyme or measure which defines my existence.
I'm OK with my existence being an accident of chance, and my demise being the same.
I am OK with being a meaningless spec in the grand scheme of things; a single transient spark which extinguishes itself after a fleeting moment in this universe. 
 
But let's begin at the beginning;
you say there is a creator God therefore it should be easy for you to point to something, anything that was created directly by God. Can you? 
 
wslm.
*

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"On what basis do you feel pain/suffering is a punishment? When you work out at the gym, does your body not ache? But does it not get stronger and faster each time you do it?"

 

Depending on the suffering, we may be talking about a disease for example.  And with some diseases, people dont actually grow stronger.  They grow progressively weaker, and life becomes more and more stressful or even painful, until they die in pain.  When i go to the gym, yes my muscles ache a bit, but i take a warm shower, eat a giant cheeseburger, and i feel like a million dollars in a couple days.

 

When i get sick with a horrid disease, there is no big delicious steak, there is no warm comforting shower. There is only pain and suffering until death.  There is no legitimate comparison of the two...

 

From a naturalistic standpoint, you could make a better case for disease being justified.  From a...God, the being who took down the oppressive egyptions with locusts and who...ya know, sprouted infinite amounts of fish and bread for the hungry... you cant really think or argue the same way.

 

Your God, meaning how you view God, can wiggle out of the problem of evil, simply because you can transform your belief into something that suits you. But this is not to say that the problem of evil doesnt apply to many other peoples "Gods".  And ill say the same for myself.  I can transform my own belief of God, in my head. But even if this problem of evil doesnt appear to apply to my own belief, id say its still a very reasonable argument, with respect to the beliefs of many others.

 

For your statement there in response to quisant, i dont know what you mean.

 

Its true, there are insane people who come up with crazy ways of justifying murder.  At the moment though, here in shia chat where religion is somewhat of a focal point of most topics, its easy to look at a group like ISIS and say...ok, here is a group that seems to be confusing pain with pleasure, and unrighteous murder, with justice.  And this is occurring, ah...because the nature of God (or in all honesty, perhaps a lack of God) really isnt clear at all and people are...basically misunderstanding God (assuming God exists). And this isnt just...a minority.  We are likely talking about millions upon millions of people who have false beliefs. Which likely includes the vast majority of muslims and even shia in particular.

 

The problem of evil doesnt negate any sort of God, but it certainly negates the existence of a particular belief in God that appears to be quite common.

 

I disagree.

 

Let us use your example of diseases such as cancer that cause slow and painful deaths to people. Surely this is bad. They suffer and in the end they only die. There is no immediate benefit to this. But from what I understand, my religion tells us that those who suffer and go through these sorts of things are rewarded in one or another after they die. This, of course, is an impossible thing to argue with an atheist. But it is the only answer. They do not like to hear this response because it gives them nothing that is breakable or physical but such is the nature of what we are trying to say.

 

When we say God is all merciful we are not saying it in isolation. God is also all knowing and all just etc. It makes the case that God should make us live happy lives because He is all merciful a bit more difficult.

 

I still fail to see why you think suffering negates the existence of a merciful God. Perhaps this is my limitation.

 

f you do not agree with it, let's agree to disagree but please note  to the present day, all theodicies have failed to explain why a 'good God would create evil, meaning that the existence of evil is simply incompatible with the existence of a ‘Good God’

 

 

I do not think we have ever agreed, but that is fine, that is good. I am glad we have these conversations.

 

The question itself is absurd. You are asking something that you already know has no possible answer within this world. It's like asking why God did not create us earlier than He did. What we know about God is limited to our mental capabilities and I do not know why God created suffering as much as I do not know why God would create the universe with a big bang or create His species through evolution (examples). 

 

What this argument is about is actually for you to prove why suffering is incompatible with an all merciful, but entirely complete God.

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For incognito...

 

Your response, i mean...its ok to have beliefs. We all have our own beliefs. But i think, regardless of my personal beliefs, i dont think id go as far to say, there is no possibility of an evil God and that the world is in reality one of lovely flowers, soft pillows and pink bunny rabbits. Where most cancer victims are actually ending up in a magically good place when its all said and done.

 

Do you  believe that it is possible that God may indeed be punishing these cancer victims, and in reality, they arent actually going to heaven afterwards?

 

The discussion, as just about all discussions with religion, is essentially useless.  Because it is all pure speculation and often blind faith. Anyone can conjure up just about any idea or belief about any thing. If someone wants to believe in a perfect righteous all good God who can simultaneously create a world of evil and corruption...well, thats just the way its going to be, and no amount of logic or reason could ever change that...

 

Everyone has different beliefs about what God may be...but even though there are a billion contradicting variants of God that exist in the imaginations of people...they are all irrefutable realities.

 

"They do not like to hear this response because it gives them nothing that is breakable or physical but such is the nature of what we are trying to say."

 

These concepts are more than just...unbreakable or non physical...they are purely in...our/your head. That is the real difficulty with the topic. There is nothing in the physical world that would indicate that many ideas that religious folk hold, are true. Yet so many will act quite strongly on their ideas. But, i suppose to an extent i do the same im afraid.

Edited by iCambrian

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Behold! This world would not be established unless in the way that God has made it with all its blessings and calamities and rewards in hereafter, or whatever He may wish that you do not know. Thus, should you any part of it confuse you, blame your ignorance”   

Imam Ali (a.s)

*****

“In a tradition (ḥadīth) reported from Imām al-Ṣādiq (as), it is said that some of the previous communities asked their prophet to petition to God the removal of death from them.

The said prophet petitioned so and God granted it and took death away from them. As a result, their generations multiplied and the usual flow of their lives was suspended because each person had to attend only to the needs of their ageing parents and grandparents and had no opportunity to perform any constructive work. For this reason, they asked their prophet to petition God for the return of the attribute of death to them.

*****

 

If no one could ever injure anyone else, the murderer's knife would turn to paper or the bullets to thin air; the bank safe, robbed of a million dollars would miraculously become filled with another million dollars, human beings would be immune to all disease; men would be given flying wings, no unavoidable diminution of power in the aged, no birth deformation, no madness, no accidents, no natural disasters, playing child falling from a height would float unharmed to the ground; the reckless driver would never meet with disaster.

 

Then there would be no sciences, nothing to investigate, no generosity, kindness, courage, compassion and charity - no moral and ethical values and virtues would exist -This would  be the worst of all possible worlds. What we name as evil is in fact contributing to the world's perfection in such a way that without it, the world would not be the best possible.

 

Jim Abbot won Olympic gold in 1988 and been a Letterman. He is the only player in major league baseball who was born with one hand. (He didn't have right hand)

 

Prof. Stephen Hawking the most eminent physicist and astrophysicist of our time. His book ‘A brief history of time' was the best seller for months. When he was 21 he was diagnosed with ALS. This disease affects walking, speaking, swallowing and even breathing.

 

Today he is confined to a wheelchair, cannot move much at all, has trouble holding his head up and cannot speak. Yet, disagree to be name disabled. He believes he was put in a challenge and has learned how to learn the challenge.

 

Beethoven, who is generally considered one of the greatest composers in the Western tradition, was deaf and could not hear his own symphony.

 

Many apparent evils are in reality blessings.

 

`Imam Ali(as) said: "If you give me all the world with everything in it, in condition that I take a husk of barley from an ant's mouth, I will not do so! “

 

For the just, this world is most painful, but nevertheless, `Imam Ali (as) never said that this world is evil. He always said that it is the world of suffering, be ready, be careful.

 

Imam Ali(as)  also said: "This world is the best place for one who understands it well."

 

*****

Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq(as) said: "When Allah loves His slave He drowns him in the sea of suffering. "

Like a swimming tutor who throws his new student into the water and makes him struggle and learn swimming, Allah does the same to perfect his beloved slaves.

 

If one reads a whole lifetime about swimming, one will not learn how to swim. We have to go into the water and struggle with the danger of drowning, and then we will learn swimming.

 

"The most difficult lives are possessed first by the prophets, then those who come after them in virtue." 

 

"They threw a grain on the earth; then came out branches. Next they crushed it in the mill; it became more expensive and useful in bread form. Next the bread was grounded under the teeth and after digestion became mind, spirit and useful thought. Again when the mind was bewildered with love, what a surprise this cultivation had been!" Rumi

 

Great men, in fact, suffered from torture, poverty, imprisonment, deprivation and even death, and this is why they became great. 

 

"The death from which you shrink will surely meet you, and afterward you will be returned unto- the Knower of the invisible and the visible, and He will tell you what you used to do " (Qur'an, 62:8).

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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The 'Problem of evil' is not something that I invented; it is over two thousand years old,  it is also called the Epicurean paradox and it goes like this:
 
'Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?'
 
 
 

 

3) Limiting Divine Attributes: A very famous challenge to theism is that the existence of evil limits at least one of the three divine attributes of God. God is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Most Merciful and Benevolent. The argument as propound by the Scottish philosopher; David Hume (1711-1776) is:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is impotent.

Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent.

Is He both able and willing? Whence there is evil?”2

http://www.al-islam.org/ultimate-questions-philosophy-religion-shaykh-mansour-leghaei/chapter-17-god-problem-evil

http://www.al-islam.org/ultimate-questions-philosophy-religion-shaykh-mansour-leghaei/chapter-18-god-and-solution-evil

 

 
I am OK with there being no plan, no purpose, and no rhyme or measure which defines my existence.
I'm OK with my existence being an accident of chance, and my demise being the same.
I am OK with being a meaningless spec in the grand scheme of things; a single transient spark which extinguishes itself after a fleeting moment in this universe. 
 
 

 

I would say, that your response is more emotional vs intellectual. You can not justify, above using you intellect, logic/rational arguments. But there is no compulsion in Religion. The fact that you are here in SC and having conversation, negates your own written argument. If you are here by chance you have no need to educate or defend your ideas. You do not have time for it. Chance did not guarantee- you tomorrow so , enjoy. Next stop six feet under and game over. 

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I do not think we have ever agreed, but that is fine, that is good. I am glad we have these conversations.

 

The question itself is absurd. You are asking something that you already know has no possible answer within this world. It's like asking why God did not create us earlier than He did. What we know about God is limited to our mental capabilities and I do not know why God created suffering as much as I do not know why God would create the universe with a big bang or create His species through evolution (examples). 

 

What this argument is about is actually for you to prove why suffering is incompatible with an all merciful, but entirely complete God.

 

 

By a 'complete God' you mean the God you made up to suit your spiritual beliefs?

Mine is without doubt more complete than yours.
 
If triangles had a God, they would give him three sides. - 
 
It's one thing to say that you believe what you believe, reasonable or not; it's quite another thing to fraudulently claim the authority of reason for your beliefs. 
 
The word "reasonable" actually means something: It means having logical, sensible reasons to believe a proposition. 
 
wslm.

 

I would say, that your response is more emotional vs intellectual. You can not justify, above using you intellect, logic/rational arguments. But there is no compulsion in Religion. The fact that you are here in SC and having conversation, negates your own written argument. If you are here by chance you have no need to educate or defend your ideas. You do not have time for it. Chance did not guarantee- you tomorrow so , enjoy. Next stop six feet under and game over. 

 

 

Defend my ideas from what? 
Apart from imagining  falsities about my character, you don't seem to have anything challenging or clever to say.
 
*

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By a 'complete God' you mean the God you made up to suit your spiritual beliefs?

Mine is without doubt more complete than yours.

 

 

 

 

Quisant,

 

I am OK with there being no plan, no purpose, and no rhyme or measure which defines my existence.

I'm OK with my existence being an accident of chance, and my demise being the same.
I am OK with being a meaningless spec in the grand scheme of things; a single transient spark which extinguishes itself after a fleeting moment in this universe

 

Which one is true? or was it an unintentional slip?

 

Are you really a Christion, Jewish, Hindu, Buddish , masquerading as a atheist for a purpose? 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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By a 'complete God' you mean the God you made up to suit your spiritual beliefs?

Mine is without doubt more complete than yours.
 
If triangles had a God, they would give him three sides. - 
 
It's one thing to say that you believe what you believe, reasonable or not; it's quite another thing to fraudulently claim the authority of reason for your beliefs. 
 
The word "reasonable" actually means something: It means having logical, sensible reasons to believe a proposition.

 

 
The God I believe is the only God that can exist - not one I pick and choose. My problem was that you were looking at only one aspect of God and claiming that He must do this or that because of it. God is all merciful and kind - but He is all just and wise. When you put all these together, it becomes difficult to tell what should/should not be the case. You create scenario's based on your own thoughts and experience and claim that an all powerful God must follow the same course of action, this is what I cannot agree with. Feel free to have it as a personal motive to reject God, but it is not an objectively sound argument.
 
If we are talking about logical propositions, we would not be discussing ideas about God - we are certainly transgressing far beyond our realm of logic. What we are doing now is simply playing a game of words, trying to make each other see something rather than know something.

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When you put all these together, it becomes difficult to tell what should/should not be the case. You create scenario's based on your own thoughts and experience and claim that an all powerful God must follow the same course of action, this is what I cannot agree with. Feel free to have it as a personal motive to reject God, but it is not an objectively sound argument.
 
If we are talking about logical propositions, we would not be discussing ideas about God - we are certainly transgressing far beyond our realm of logic. What we are doing now is simply playing a game of words, trying to make each other see something rather than know something.

 

 

If, as you say, one cannot tell what should/should not be the case with regards to God's actions, how have you come to the conclusion that He is Benevolent? 
What logic have you used? 
Is it a case of Might is always Right? 
 
The amount of suffering and evil in this world is incompatible with an Omniscient Omnipotent and All Benevolent God because a Benevolent God wants to eliminate suffering, an Omniscient God knows how to and an Omnipotent God can do it. 

 

 
God is all merciful and kind - but He is all just and wise

 

 

Like your improbable notion that He is all merciful and He is all just? What events have made you reach this notion?
 
Being Just means enacting punishment appropriate to the crime and being Merciful means forgiving or enacting lesser punishment than that fits the crime.  
Any time God forgives a sin, he could have been more Just, any time he punishes, he could have been Merciful. 
 
Wslm.
*
 
Sorry I am late answering, I am travelling and it is difficult at the moment.

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god.... what a topic,general understanding of god for many is, you cannot understand him, nor see him, describe him, dream of him,

 

god created you, he created the wind, he created the sea he created the dark matters that float in the skies beyond skies, he created will, he created time, he created love, he created hate.pain, he created what has a begining and an end he also created what does not have a begining or an end,he created creation, he created existence and existence too relies on god, he is here without being part of anything. how can you say god exists when he created existence in the first place, how can you try to understand somthing you know you cannot. ponder over the created not the creator.

Edited by alialiali

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Thing is even if its an accident, what caused that accident? Next question, what is the cause of the cause of that accident? The questions build up until your left with a starting point. When you think philosophically and deeply, youll find that we cant just exist for nothing. Why did the accident take place? What was tgere before the accident? Why was that particular thing even there? If you think deeply enough, you will find the answer- that there is no answer.

The big question is What is the starting point? What was there before this point?

If God created universe, how did God come to be?

These are questions i asked myself when i was atheist. Unfortunately i think these will never be answered.

But there simply is no other answer than a starter, who neither i nor any religious person cant answer how He got started, who has began everything. That starter is Yahweh/God/Allah.

Furthermore the Abrahimic monotheism are the only religions which all have pretty much the same revelations.

Just my thoughts tho. Hope Allah isnt angered at me trying to think about Allah.

Edited by Spicen

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when you speak of god then the chain of reliance is what you need to look into my brother, look deep in to science and you'l find even the smallest things, atoms, compounds, liquids,gas, solids, to the bigger things, fire, water, rocks plants, grass, trees, to the mamals, to the humans, look to the larger things, earth, planets, blackholes, stars, suns, milkyway, universe, you will find it all comes within the chain of reliance. Not only science but life in general, finances, emotions, poverty, richness, health, ilnesses,, good, spirituality, religion, finite,infinite, even reliance relies on somthing, they all come under the umbrella. now once you've gone deep in which ever chain (path) you've chosen you will find and come to a point in our tiny brains that this canot continue without a main source as the entire chain of reliance falls. there has to be somthing on the end which is  self reliant to hold everythig in place, many call it ... god

 

" there are many routes to the top of a mountain, when you reach the peak and when you see what is below the view is the same for all"

 

Find out who you are, not what youve made of yourself and achieved in this world, the houses the gardens that i have are they me? obviously its not, THEY ARE MINES,,  the cloths the shoes? again they are mines, the hands the feet the fingers? i cant hold up my hand and say this hand is ME? because it is MINES, you can cut them off but im stiill,,,, me,. going deeper,, the bones the lungs the kidneys are,,, again mines and not me, deeper,, the vessels the capilaries the blood the cells? again they are,, mines! and not me go as deep as you want all you will find is what is MINES, if this is the case then who is ME?

 

before you go deep into anything outside, why not firstly go deep into yourself, this is what people neglect, the soul, and this is why its harder to understand things that are out there,

 

TO UNDERSTAND YOURSELF IS TO UNDERSTAND YOUR LORD

Edited by alialiali

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The best argument against God is the argument from evil. Basically if God is all-good and capable of stopping suffering and evil, why doesn't he do so. Also, another one, can be that earned praiseworthiness, is worth more the unearned. God always had his praiseworthiness so didn't have to earn it. Humans on the other hand earn it. Therefore if this is true, is God really greater? 

 

These are two arguments I know of.  They can be counter argued. I'm not aware of any other arguments that challenge God.

 

How evil can be against God?

 

1) Evils are nothingness or non-existence subgroup:

 

if we divide creatures in to good and evil , all evils are nothingness subgroup, for example we call deficiencies, vacuums, and things which annihilation, death, and destruction arise from, evil like earthquake, flood and disease... i give you an example to illustrate this claim, for instance ignorance is lack or absence of knowledge, it means that knowledge is actual and real , but ignorance is not anything except lack of knowledge . 

 

Consequently, evils don't need creator because they are nothing,  how we can attribute evils to God? 

 

 

2) Evil is comparative- attribute:

 

all things possess two kind of attributes, innate attributes and comparative -attributes, for example when one say this apple is small and that one is big, big and small are comparative- attributes because they arise from comparison between two things.

 

its clear that evils are not innat attribute, becuase everything is good in its place, for example snake  per se is good not bad, but when we compare snake with human, evil come from this comparison, because snake is detrimental to human, also earthquake , flood and so on.

 

As a result, creation directly connected with the real existence of creatures, not with their existence in comparison with others

In other word, comparative- attributes are unreal, unlike innate attributes which are real.

 So how we can ascribe evils to God? 

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