Is It Impossible For God To Not Exist?

Abd az Zahra · September 21, 2014

Is it impossible for God to not exist? if not impossible, what proof will it take for a theist to disbelieve in Him?

Khalilallah · September 21, 2014

There can be no proof to prove that something which exists, doesn't exist.

Ignorance is all it takes for a person to disbelieve.

StrugglingForTheLight · September 21, 2014

The best argument against God is the argument from evil. Basically if God is all-good and capable of stopping suffering and evil, why doesn't he do so. Also, another one, can be that earned praiseworthiness, is worth more the unearned. God always had his praiseworthiness so didn't have to earn it. Humans on the other hand earn it. Therefore if this is true, is God really greater?

These are two arguments I know of. They can be counter argued. I'm not aware of any other arguments that challenge God.

**Muhammed Ali** · September 21, 2014

The best argument against God is the argument from evil. Basically if God is all-good and capable of stopping suffering and evil, why doesn't he do so. Also, another one, can be that earned praiseworthiness, is worth more the unearned. God always had his praiseworthiness so didn't have to earn it. Humans on the other hand earn it. Therefore if this is true, is God really greater?

These are two arguments I know of. They can be counter argued. I'm not aware of any other arguments that challenge God.

I don't think these two are good arguments. The second is not an argument against a prime creator; it is an argument against one of his attributes. I think the best argument is one from parsimony.

Is it impossible for God to not exist? if not impossible, what proof will it take for a theist to disbelieve in Him?

It is impossible for a necessary existent to not exist, and we can demonstrate that it is must have some of the attributes of God.

StrugglingForTheLight · September 21, 2014

Both those arguments don't challenge a Creator. But "God" is more then a creator, he is the ultimate being, and both those arguments challenge that.

rafidhi1986 · September 21, 2014

Existance has taken the form of life, and life as we understand is subjected to the law of opposites. How could you know day if there was no night? Or happiness if not sadness? All of these concepts are formulated by a sophisticated intelligence(The True Reality) which is formless and not bound by formulated "laws". That's why our existance is contingant upon His.

If you look at a tree you see design, perfect symetry no inconsistancies. Now if you break open the seed of the tree you see "nothing". You in fact see the signature of the designer in everything.( pure conciousness). Just like the movement of thought in the mind. What controls it? Can you see intellect? No, but you know it exists! You experience The God in similar ways, just like everything comes from our minds, well He projects the universe from Himself: not in physicality but as if your in His mind

**Chaotic Muslem** · September 21, 2014

what's existence ?

if it weren't for Him to let us know that we once did not exist.

What's existence for Him?

for us it is a stage between 2 non existences

Who's He whom the usage of the term existence is problematic if we tried to describe Him?

One of the arguments by shia scholars against the theory of necessary existence being (Wajib al Wujoub) is that among His names is the Wajid (the verb to make existence ) not the maoujoud (existent )

rafidhi1986 · September 22, 2014

الامام الرضا عليه السلام

explains that the name الله is created. it is the meaning behind the name that is worshipped not the 99 names themselves. he explained that if you wworshipped the 99 names then you would be a polytheist. And if you worshipped just the name الله then you would have worshipped nothing. a true monotheistic person recognizes the reality and worships it

الكافي الشريف كتاب التوحيد

rafidhi1986 · September 22, 2014

الامام الصادق عليه السلام في تفسير ا العياشي قاله اسم الله في ام الكتاب

الكتاب اهل البيت محمد صلى الله عليه واله وسلم

S.M.H.A. · September 22, 2014

The best argument against God is the argument from evil. Basically if God is all-good and capable of stopping suffering and evil, why doesn't he do so.

How do you suggest God accomplish this task to your satisfaction?

Show up and eliminate all evil people.
What about future evil people, God has to keep eliminating evil people everyday.

Problem here is that God did not create anyone who is inherently evil.

Its the potential of Free Will- that is the issue here.

Let’s take your eyes, ears, hands, legs, ability to think , since they have a potential to commit evil. Problem solved. You are happy with the God, that you are an inanimate object.

Or

?

shiamehdi14 · September 22, 2014

Is it impossible for you to exist without God?

**Quisant** · September 22, 2014

How do you suggest God accomplish this task to your satisfaction?

Show up and eliminate all evil people.
What about future evil people, God has to keep eliminating evil people everyday.

Problem here is that God did not create anyone who is inherently evil.
Its the potential of Free Will- that is the issue here.

Let’s take your eyes, ears, hands, legs, ability to think , since they have a potential to commit evil. Problem solved. You are happy with the God, that you are an inanimate object.

Or

?

If God wanted to remove suffering without removing free will, it would happen in a heartbeat with perfect consistency.

To a flawless benevolent Being possessing unlimited power there would be no need to resort to suffering as a means-to-an-end.

Just a simple 'Be and it is'. :)

After all, if there is free will in Heaven where there is no evil or suffering, then it cannot be true that God lets evil exist because it is a required side-effect of free will.

wslm.

*

**mesbah** · September 22, 2014

To OP:

it depends on your definition of God

if by God you mean Somebody living somewhere in the sky (and not heaven) then No, It is not impossible for it not to exist.

but if God is the existence itself, then How can it not exist?

regarding the Issue of Evil in creation, it is a TEST; and people who are obsessed with it, have already failed it.

on a general note God's mercy does not mean that God has to fulfill people's endless desires. some people think only when they own the whole universe with an everlasting blissful life without any suffering or test before, only in such a case, Mercy of God can be meaningful.

Edited September 22, 2014 by mesbah

S.M.H.A. · September 22, 2014

If God wanted to remove suffering without removing free will, it would happen in a heartbeat with perfect consistency.

To a flawless benevolent Being possessing unlimited power there would be no need to resort to suffering as a means-to-an-end.
Just a simple 'Be and it is'. :)

After all, if there is free will in Heaven where there is no evil or suffering, then it cannot be true that God lets evil exist because it is a required side-effect of free will.

wslm.
*

Earth=Trial/Test
Day of Judgement.
a)Heaven=Reward after the test/trial.

b)Hell=Punishment after the test/trial.

Free Will in the realm of test/trial -

Informed of potential of Evil- sent guidance to avoid it.

Made clear in the Quran- iblis has respite till the day of judgement.

Responsibility of man made very clear to forbid evil.

Freewill choice -A)Good V) Evil. C) Watch Evil, enjoy life- complain about God.

But all this seems to be intentionally overlooked by intellectual with such deep perception of realities. Why?

(using convoluted logic to manipulate. )
I can't live according to God's law, so I need to deny.

What happens after evil argument, I am short, he is tall, I am ugly , she is more beautiful, how come he has a Benz, I have a bike- God is so unjust - why can’t He give me all if He is so powerful and merciful _ I deny his mercy- He only gives it to some not all- he is not just --oh Why do i need to die now, the other guy is older than me, he is still alive- God is so unjust…..Why can’t a merciful all powerful God just take us all at the same time, so no one’s feeling are hurt. Why was I born in this century, why not the next century or in the past …its just not fair. He has the power he could have made it possible that NO one will complain about anything, we so sensitive people. He just does not know us. He just does not understand our sense of entitlement.We are disappointed. So, we the intellectuals of the 21 century can't believe.

There is no end to this nonsense. it will go on and on .....

No you will not be choosing to either vaporize another human or not to vapourize him/her in Heaven.Or to purse Steve, or get Drunk and rape someone after that or to take over the natural resources of another country.

Incognito · September 22, 2014

I, too, don't see any strength in the evil argument. There are far stronger arguments an atheist can make.

Evil, to an extent, is very subjective. As the above post states, when can we draw the line as to what evil is? Can someone not claim it to be unjust that an all powerful being has not given all power to someone else? Or that His power has not been shared equally? Remember to be 'evil' there needs to be context.

In addition, I find it unfortunate how most atheists expect a worldly answer for a question that really can only be understood outside of our sphere. As believers, it is our belief that those who unjustly suffer will be rewarded. This answer is more than often rejected because there is no way to relate this in life (although plenty atheists still, for whatever reason, hold on to the idea that karma exists).

**Quisant** · September 23, 2014

Earth=Trial/Test

Day of Judgement.

a)Heaven=Reward after the test/trial.

b)Hell=Punishment after the test/trial.

Free Will in the realm of test/trial -

Informed of potential of Evil- sent guidance to avoid it.
Made clear in the Quran- iblis has respite till the day of judgement.
Responsibility of man made very clear to forbid evil.

Freewill choice -A)Good V) Evil. C) Watch Evil, enjoy life- complain about God.

But all this seems to be intentionally overlooked by intellectual with such deep perception of realities. Why?

(using convoluted logic to manipulate. )

I can't live according to God's law, so I need to deny.

What happens after evil argument, I am short, he is tall, I am ugly , she is more beautiful, how come he has a Benz, I have a bike- God is so unjust - why can’t He give me all if He is so powerful and merciful _ I deny his mercy- He only gives it to some not all- he is not just --oh Why do i need to die now, the other guy is older than me, he is still alive- God is so unjust…..Why can’t a merciful all powerful God just take us all at the same time, so no one’s feeling are hurt. Why was I born in this century, why not the next century or in the past …its just not fair. He has the power he could have made it possible that NO one will complain about anything, we so sensitive people. He just does not know us. He just does not understand our sense of entitlement.We are disappointed. So, we the intellectuals of the 21 century can't believe.

There is no end to this nonsense. it will go on and on .....
No you will not be choosing to either vaporize another human or not to vapourize him/her in Heaven.Or to purse Steve, or get Drunk and rape someone after that or to take over the natural resources of another country.

What you fail to understand is what the actual problem is:

in the philosophy of religion the existence of suffering in the world is not consistent with the notion of an All-mighty Benevolent God.

That is the so called 'Problem of Evil'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

God is usually described by believers as Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnibenevolent

Benevolence is the desire for good, the desire that there not be evil, it implies the will to remove evil.

A competent All powerful God CAN create a sufferingless existence, therefore THIS existence is NOT NECESSARY.

If evil/suffering is necessary, then God cannot be omnipotent. Nothing is necessary to an omnipotent entity.

wslm.

*

In addition, I find it unfortunate how most atheists expect a worldly answer for a question that really can only be understood outside of our sphere. As believers, it is our belief that those who unjustly suffer will be rewarded. This answer is more than often rejected because there is no way to relate this in life (although plenty atheists still, for whatever reason, hold on to the idea that karma exists).

Poor theodicy include stating that certain rewards (e.g. paradise) are only obtainable through suffering without addressing the objection that a benevolent God could have given these rewards without any suffering having to be endured.

wslm.*

**mesbah** · September 23, 2014

there are certain kinds of reward that need to be based on tests

so that he who perishes might perish by a manifest proof, and he who lives may live on by a manifest proof, and Allah is indeed all-hearing, all-knowing. 8:42

S.M.H.A. · September 23, 2014

life

the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death.

purpose

the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists

tri·al:

a test of the performance, qualities, or suitability of someone or something.

test.

a procedure intended to establish the quality, performance,

pun·ish·ment

the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense.

re·ward.

a thing given in recognition of one's service, effort, or achievement.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Before assigning all the blame and liability to God.(which you logically can’t as discussed above). Issue is at the fundamental level.

May be things will become clearer, (if they were not already clear to you, and you just want to deny, for what ever purpose).

Can you tell me your purpose on this Earth?

1)why are you here?

2) Do you have any liability for your own action?

EthidiumIodide · September 23, 2014

Can you tell me your purpose on this Earth?
1)why are you here?
2) Do you have any liability for your own action?

1. To be enslaved to the Creator of the Universe.

2. No. Determinism.

S.M.H.A. · September 23, 2014

1. To be enslaved to the Creator of the Universe.
2. No. Determinism.

de·ter·min·ism

the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.

------------------------------------

1)

Lets assume that your answer is not sarcasm. And you have not read/understood/were informed of Free Will, in your actions, and if you were born in a secular Muslim family, and when you reached maturity, you could not find the Truth on your own. But you are an intellectual, who studied everything that is out there and your true, sincere and unbiased search utilizing your intellect you come up with this notion of enslavement.

Free yourself from this bondage, make sure that you find a place that is created by you, breath what is created by you, eat what is created by your, derive pleasure from what is created by you, , choose your own time to leave this earth, ensure that you do not take anything from what is not yours(not created by you) to make something out of it. (Create your own).

I don’t hear an argument of enslavement or choice selection by Evolution.Are you content with what Evolution has chosen for you?

Do you have the same issue with survival of the fittest, why Evolution is so evil?) no compensation here). Evolution must be pure Evil according to your standards and logic?

2)

Try this logic in a human court of law and see how a human judge responds.

Edited September 23, 2014 by S.M.H.A.

Incognito · September 23, 2014

Poor theodicy include stating that certain rewards (e.g. paradise) are only obtainable through suffering without addressing the objection that a benevolent God could have given these rewards without any suffering having to be endured.

wslm.*

I do not believe a benevolent God should give us rewards without having to earn it.

Should you be given anything in life that you do not deserve? Do you expect to be given riches and fame for doing nothing?

You seem to fail to see the value in suffering. Suffering, itself, is not something we seek. But when faced with suffering it gives us the opportunity to grow and become wiser. Do you not see any value in this?

Your argument is based on what God can do. Because you see more value in something God could do, it does not mean you know that that would be the best course. This is not something that can be argued - you may have it as a personal belief but it is not an argument.

S.M.H.A. · September 23, 2014

Human society rewards people for their efforts in reaching their potential. A student takes on tests at different levels and the complexity of the test increases as the level of learning increases. People who take part in Olympic and other sports and training for professional events. Have to sacrifice a lot, train/strive for many hours a day to reach their highest potential. Only a lazy person will engage in wishful thinking to achieve anything in this world with our effort/struggle. Entitlement only exists in mommy/daddy’s house.

Similarly, Humans reach their spiritual potential through tests. Iblis reached a position, but failed the test, Prophet Ibrahim(as) was tested and his status was raised. Humans are tested to recognize their potential and grow to their highest potential where an Angel will prostrate to them or they can sink to the level of even lower than any vicious animal. Iblis was not coerced, Iblis was allowed to chose, he made his choice, and showed his true potential/exposed to himself and others. God provided guidance to Humans. Evil only comes into existence, because of Free will, given the opportunity to negate/reject Good.

If I say to someone, I love you. That person should test my love. Similarly, I we say we love, Allah(swt), we should be ready to pass the test. Harder the test, level of love/submission is judged by that test. If we can’t follow simple instructions, we do not have love for the one who created us out of nothing and gave us what we have. Look at all the good vs what we have to sacrifice, its miniscule. Little sacrifice is a trouble, we are not worthy of HIS love or mercy.

Edited September 23, 2014 by S.M.H.A.

thuglife · September 24, 2014

The best argument against God is the argument from evil. Basically if God is all-good and capable of stopping suffering and evil, why doesn't he do so. Also, another one, can be that earned praiseworthiness, is worth more the unearned. God always had his praiseworthiness so didn't have to earn it. Humans on the other hand earn it. Therefore if this is true, is God really greater?

These are two arguments I know of. They can be counter argued. I'm not aware of any other arguments that challenge God.

The first one you mentioned,

this brother addresses fully:

**Quisant** · September 24, 2014

Can you tell me your purpose on this Earth?
1)why are you here?
2) Do you have any liability for your own action?

I am sorry, I do not understand your questions; please explain the relevance in the context of our discussion about a more or less Benevolent God.

Do you want to extend the discussion to other issues?

I do not believe a benevolent God should give us rewards without having to earn it.

Should you be given anything in life that you do not deserve? Do you expect to be given riches and fame for doing nothing?

You seem to fail to see the value in suffering. Suffering, itself, is not something we seek. But when faced with suffering it gives us the opportunity to grow and become wiser. Do you not see any value in this?

Your argument is based on what God can do. Because you see more value in something God could do, it does not mean you know that that would be the best course. This is not something that can be argued - you may have it as a personal belief but it is not an argument.

A Tsunami that drowns 200 thousand people, did they deserve to die? What was was God testing?

Between 14 and 17 million people die each year due to infectious diseases – Children are particularly vulnerable to infectious diseases. Pneumonia, diarrhea and malaria are leading causes of death among children under age 5; cerebral malaria can cause permanent mental impairment. Etc..

The list of unnecessary evils could go on and on.

I only argue that the amount of suffering is incompatible with God's 'supposed' loving nature as claimed by religious philosophy.

An Omniscient, Omnipotent, Benevolent God cannot exist because the attributes are incompatible.

God is all-powerful

God is good

There is needless suffering in the world

Pick Two. You can't pick three.

But you believe that suffering/evil is necessary for God to achieve his "greater good" goals.

He is unable to achieve His plan or give you wisdom without the resorting to pain and suffering?

God uses suffering, since without it there are things he can't do?

Does God also need to suffer to be wise and good?

Wslm.

*

**mesbah** · September 24, 2014

expecting God to create gods is paradoxical.

S.M.H.A. · September 24, 2014

Disease Causes: Unnatural/forbidden behaviour/ Acts (AIDS/ STDs etc). Food contamination due to genetically modified food, eating filthy animals, hormones and antibiotics given to animals to get them ready/fat before their natural time for slaughter, pesticides in crops, pesticides and other pesticides in fruits and vegetables etc…after birth vaccination, before birth lifestyle of birth control, drug and other pharmaceutical use , effect of delayed pregnancy, substance abuse before and during pregnancy, lifestyle during pregnancy - while the baby is in the mothers womb- environmental pollution.

Disasters: Nuclear underground/under water testing, Biological and viral research and weapons development, People living near sea, in below sea level man made cities protected by man made levees, near danger zones, on or around major fault line, Fracking for profits, over harvesting of forest -it impact - what its long term impact on water supply, nuclear waste seeping into water supply near or around nuclear facilities.Look up Mosul Dam and see if this was the perfect place and what it need to be done to protect it, and what's actually happening to the structure if its not maintained. why was it built there in the first place, it could flood Baghdad with few feet of water? was that an expedited project or done with great care. Japan-disaster where are these reactors located and why ? was it corporate convenience or it was a mistake to located them where they are ? What will happen, in few decades when all these Nuclear facilities need to be repaired- can we have another chernobyl? Sea levels rising due to melting polar ice due to what? flooding of coastal cities will be blamed on God?

Government and corporation kill more people for their profits/power compared to natural disasters.

Even some Natural disaster can be avoided. Why do people live in a tornado valley? and once the Tornado hits- You see officials will proclaim, that we will rebuild. Why?

New Orleans - Katrina disaster- Is the city below sea level and protected by man made levees?

Los Angeles is it on or near a major fault line. If part of it drop into the ocean with hundred of thousand swill you blame God?

I think, you need to make solid arguments and not lump many things together to gain an edge

There is a natural order that regulates the system, otherwise you will have drought, no drinking water in places. earthquakes and Volcanoes serve a purpose for Earth.-other basics of life that the entire population relies in to survive, here the same principle applies - there are rules to follow - can’t endanger yourself or humans endanger others for their benefit.

Life was never guaranteed. Death is guaranteed to all living. So, what’s your point? the way of death?

If you die a long, slow painful death due to a disease due to old age(physical deterioration) or instantaneous death in a disaster?

Out of the 7 billion, how many are dying daily due to old age or other natural causes? will this be you next issue, what so many die every day?

I think you will be better off, by arguing why death? Why can’t all merciful, loving God allow life for ever? why create death?

Would you prefer Rapture? no pain related to death?

You may come back to the pain and suffering that bonds the mother with the child, you might have an issue here too.

You have built a wall, thats why you did not want to answer the question that were pertinent to this topic to see where you mindset is.

You need to take a break and take a hard look at realities and come up with genuine arguments which you will not find. Because everything inside you, your body, around you and above you is pointing to one thing , that you want to just deny.

iCambrian · September 24, 2014

This person believes disease is caused by the actions of people? ^ I certainly hope most muslims wouldnt agree with this.None of the things mentioned in the first paragraph are causes for the existence of disease.

As a matter of fact, just because STDs' were mentioned, some STDs' are spread very very easily, without even necessarily having people involved in sexual acts. Some diseases pass through, for example, saliva. Someone sneezes, a little bit gets on their hand and they touch a door knob, joe shmoe comes over and opens the door, well now the disease is on him.

You dont really have to be a horrible sinner to get a disease. Even the most good hearted people are plagued in this world like the rest of us.

For the second paragraph, natural disasters occur all the time. Our use of nuclear energy has nothing to do with earthquakes and tsunamis, nor tornadoes that kill countless people...

Then he says something like...why live in X location where natural disasters are likely to occur?

Well, what do you expect? Do you want the entire world to cram up into the tiny amount of space on this planet that doesnt have some sort of natural disaster? Yes, youre right, lets take the millions of people in new orleans and tornado alley and lets just stuff them in new york...that makes sense..right?

Also, Its a necessity for people to live in locations like tornado alley and new orleans. There is very rich soil there that is used to provide crops for the world. This goes for many places on earth.

According to your logic, maybe everyone in indonesia should just hop on a boat and go live in korea. After all, indonesia is constantly hit with earthquakes and they live on volcanoes...makes sense right? No of course not.

The post above mine is just atrocious.

Edited September 24, 2014 by iCambrian

iCambrian · September 24, 2014

edit edit

S.M.H.A. · September 25, 2014

Cornell University Study: Water/air/soil pollution causes 40% of deaths worldwide

World Health Organization( WHO): 7 Million Premature deaths linked to Air Polution

http://www.publichealth.va.gov/exposures/radiation/diseases.asp

Depleted Uranium_ Gulf War

DU: Cancer in Iraq

IAEA:worldwide, 20% of nuclear reactors are operating in areas of significant seismic activity.

“A report from the Japanese government's Earthquake Research Committee on earthquakes and tsunamis off the Pacific coastline of northeastern Japan in February 2011 was due for release in April, and might have brought about changes. The document includes analysis of a magnitude 8.3 earthquake that is known to have struck the region more than 1140 years ago, triggering enormous tsunamis that flooded vast areas of Miyagi and Fukushima prefectures. The report concludes that the region should be alerted of the risk of a similar disaster striking again. The 11 March earthquake measured magnitude 9.0 and involved substantial shifting of multiple sections of seabed over a source area of 200 x 400 km. Tsunami waves devastated wide areas of Miyagi, Iwate and Fukushima prefectures.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Safety-and-Security/Safety-of-Plants/Fukushima-Accident/

Fukushima leaking radioactive water for ‘2 years, 300 tons flowing into Pacific daily’

iCambrian · September 25, 2014

Thanks for ignoring my post ^^

eThErEaL · September 25, 2014

Is it impossible for God to not exist?

Yes. It is impossible for God to not exist.

And yes, this statement indeed makes all atheists or skeptics sound like a bunch of fools. Which they are!

"The fool hath said in his heart there is no God" --King James Bible.

The best argument against God is the argumenthink you t from evil. Basically if God is all-good and capable of stopping suffering and evil, why doesn't he do so. Also, another one, can be that earned praiseworthiness, is worth more the unearned. God always had his praiseworthiness so didn't have to earn it. Humans on the other hand earn it. Therefore if this is true, is God really greater?

These are two arguments I know of. They can be counter argued. I'm not aware of any other arguments that challenge God.

Seems like some people here need to brush up on some basics.

1 - God is All-Good. Without evil the greater good could not possibly come about or exist! So God "permits" evil to exist for the greater good to exist. Evil therefore is good inasmuch as it makes possible the greater good to exist.

2- I don't know where you got this argument from but you seem to be imagining that somehow people do something to earn a certain praiseworthy position. No one earns anything! Even those who are "rewarded" are rewarded on the basis of how free they are from thinking they earned anything (how free they are from egoism). No one enters Paradise if they have even an iota of pride in them. This is what the whole story of Iblis and him being expelled from God's Mercy is all about. Why do you think we say (To Allah belongs all praises!) This means we are not at all praiseworthy! Only God is. No one earns anything in this world because everything belongs to God.

Edited September 25, 2014 by eThErEaL

**Quisant** · September 25, 2014

Disease Causes: Unnatural/forbidden behaviour/ Acts (AIDS/ STDs etc). Food contamination due to genetically modified food, eating filthy animals, hormones and antibiotics given to animals to get them ready/fat before their natural time for slaughter, pesticides in crops, pesticides and other pesticides in fruits and vegetables etc…after birth vaccination, before birth lifestyle of birth control, drug and other pharmaceutical use , effect of delayed pregnancy, substance abuse before and during pregnancy, lifestyle during pregnancy - while the baby is in the mothers womb- environmental pollution.

Disasters: Nuclear underground/under water testing, Biological and viral research and weapons development, People living near sea, in below sea level man made cities protected by man made levees, near danger zones, on or around major fault line, Fracking for profits, over harvesting of forest -it impact - what its long term impact on water supply, nuclear waste seeping into water supply near or around nuclear facilities.Look up Mosul Dam and see if this was the perfect place and what it need to be done to protect it, and what's actually happening to the structure if its not maintained. why was it built there in the first place, it could flood Baghdad with few feet of water? was that an expedited project or done with great care. Japan-disaster where are these reactors located and why ? was it corporate convenience or it was a mistake to located them where they are ? What will happen, in few decades when all these Nuclear facilities need to be repaired- can we have another chernobyl? Sea levels rising due to melting polar ice due to what? flooding of coastal cities will be blamed on God?

Government and corporation kill more people for their profits/power compared to natural disasters.

Even some Natural disaster can be avoided. Why do people live in a tornado valley? and once the Tornado hits- You see officials will proclaim, that we will rebuild. Why?
New Orleans - Katrina disaster- Is the city below sea level and protected by man made levees?
Los Angeles is it on or near a major fault line. If part of it drop into the ocean with hundred of thousand swill you blame God?

I think, you need to make solid arguments and not lump many things together to gain an edge
There is a natural order that regulates the system, otherwise you will have drought, no drinking water in places. earthquakes and Volcanoes serve a purpose for Earth.-other basics of life that the entire population relies in to survive, here the same principle applies - there are rules to follow - can’t endanger yourself or humans endanger others for their benefit.

Life was never guaranteed. Death is guaranteed to all living. So, what’s your point? the way of death?

If you die a long, slow painful death due to a disease due to old age(physical deterioration) or instantaneous death in a disaster?

Out of the 7 billion, how many are dying daily due to old age or other natural causes? will this be you next issue, what so many die every day?

I think you will be better off, by arguing why death? Why can’t all merciful, loving God allow life for ever? why create death?

Would you prefer Rapture? no pain related to death?

You may come back to the pain and suffering that bonds the mother with the child, you might have an issue here too.

You have built a wall, thats why you did not want to answer the question that were pertinent to this topic to see where you mindset is.
You need to take a break and take a hard look at realities and come up with genuine arguments which you will not find. Because everything inside you, your body, around you and above you is pointing to one thing , that you want to just deny.

Your post is a straw man argument riddled with exaggerated nonsense.

"Nothing shall ever happen to us except what Allah has ordained for us."

"No calamity occurs on earth nor in yourselves but it is inscribed in the Book of Decrees before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allah."

You may be happy with a God that hastily intervenes to save a handful of Jews from Pharaoh and on the other hand decrees an agonizing death for millions of innocent people.

I have problems with reconciling that to a Benevolent God.

I think I have done with this thread.

Thanks for talking to me.

All the best.

*

Incognito · September 25, 2014

A Tsunami that drowns 200 thousand people, did they deserve to die? What was was God testing? Between 14 and 17 million people die each year due to infectious diseases – Children are particularly vulnerable to infectious diseases. Pneumonia, diarrhea and malaria are leading causes of death among children under age 5; cerebral malaria can cause permanent mental impairment. Etc..

You don't seem to understand the role death plays in religion. Death is not a punishment (in most cases). If 200 thousand people drown, that is not God punishing them. That is them dying.

I only argue that the amount of suffering is incompatible with God's 'supposed' loving nature as claimed by religious philosophy.
An Omniscient, Omnipotent, Benevolent God cannot exist because the attributes are incompatible.

Although I do understand what you are saying, I am stating that this is something that is very difficult to say because we are not omniscient, omnipotent or benevolent. How do you know what the behaviour of all powerful being who has limitless qualities in all possible attributes?

God is all-powerful
God is good
There is needless suffering in the world
Pick Two. You can't pick three.

The bold statement is incorrect. Suffering is not needless - it has great benefits. Ask a monk.

But you believe that suffering/evil is necessary for God to achieve his "greater good" goals.
He is unable to achieve His plan or give you wisdom without the resorting to pain and suffering?
God uses suffering, since without it there are things he can't do?

Does God also need to suffer to be wise and good?

This question is far more general than just the 'evil' problem. You can question every single way God has done something. But this is futile because there are infinite number of ways an all powerful God has done what He has done.

You are questioning an aspect of God that is beyond our understanding by the nature of God. Only question what we can know.

**Quisant** · September 25, 2014

Although I do understand what you are saying, I am stating that this is something that is very difficult to say because we are not omniscient, omnipotent or benevolent.
How do you know what the behavior of all powerful being who has limitless qualities in all possible attributes?

You are questioning an aspect of God that is beyond our understanding by the nature of God.

Well, for that matter, how do you know?

Funny how God 'transcends our understanding' only when a believer is presented with a problem or contradiction.

If something is unknowable in human terms then to what degree can you claim anything about it?

If we lack the "perspective" to understand God's logic, there's no way to prove that God is logical.

If God's logic is beyond our comprehension, then that is no different to our perspective than a God who is not logical.

Further if God is beyond laws, then it has the potential of being lawless and thus wayward.

God could be Benevolent, Malevolent or Indifferent.

And yet Believers RELY completely on God acting in a logical way:

God is good; he will certainly set everything right. If I behave myself he'll send me to Heaven.

Wslm.

*

iCambrian · September 25, 2014

Ah that was great right there at the beginning ^. For incognito, you mentioned that death is not punishment in most cases. I can in part understand this but...the pain and suffering that occurs in many deaths...it's a bit difficult to make the case that this isn't punishment. Is the sinking of the titanic and the horrid stories of great losses and struggles for life something that we generally consider a good thing?

This is one of, and I am a believer in God, but for me, one thing that I find difficult with some religious ideas is that, people who defend the idea of having a good religious moral basis, sometimes use religion to bend what appears to be moral truth, to suit their beliefs. Something like murder can be seen as justified in some cases due to religious beliefs. Or ya know, suicide bombings, things of that nature...

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