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TheIslamHistory

Ibn Tay'miyah: Praying On Carpet/mat

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(bismillah)

 

Sorry, you may have misunderstood, the issue being established. If you read the above quotation, it is based on the issue of "Prostration" and not "Simply Praying (standing) on carpet".

 

___________________________________________________________

(wasalam)

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Prostration has seven points.  How many of yours touch mud for it to revive the Sunnah?  Furthermore, where in Iraq do you find perfectly round biscuits (turbah) popping up from the earth except through processing and human intervention?  Cotton goes through processing and human intervention for it to become a prayer rug.  So, your point is?


 
Question: Whom, lays-out prayer mat in the Mosque and prayers on it? Is what he has done an innovation or not?
 
 
 
فَأَجَابَ:الْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ، أَمَّا الصَّلَاةُ عَلَى السَّجَّادَةِ بِحَيْثُ يَتَحَرَّى الْمُصَلِّي ذَلِكَ فَلَمْ تَكُنْ هَذِهِ سُنَّةَ السَّلَفِ مِنْ الْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالْأَنْصَارِ وَمَنْ بَعْدَهُمْ مِنْ التَّابِعِينَ لَهُمْ بِإِحْسَانِ عَلَى عَهْدِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ بَلْ كَانُوا يُصَلُّونَ فِي مَسْجِدِهِ عَلَى الْأَرْضِ لَا يَتَّخِذُ أَحَدُهُمْ سَجَّادَةً يَخْتَصُّ بِالصَّلَاةِ عَلَيْهَا. وَقَدْ رُوِيَ أَنَّ عَبْدَ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنَ مَهْدِيٍّ لَمَّا قَدِمَ الْمَدِينَةَ بَسَطَ سَجَّادَةً فَأَمَرَ مَالِكٌ بِحَبْسِهِ فَقِيلَ لَهُ: إنَّهُ عَبْدُ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنُ مَهْدِيٍّ فَقَالَ: أَمَا عَلِمْت أَنَّ بَسْطَ السَّجَّادَةِ فِي مَسْجِدِنَا بِدْعَةٌ

 

 

He answered: All thanks to Allah all mighty of all worlds, as for praying on a prayer mat, where the the prayer-er inquires it, for this was not the sunnah of the "Salaf" from the "Muhajreen" and "Al-Ans'ar" and after them, their followers (Ta'b'een) of them with righteousness, on the promise of the messenger of Allah (s.a.w.a.s), but they use to pray in the Mosque on the ground, and not one any of them taking a prayer mat specializing it for praying on it. And it has been narrated that Abdull'Rahman bin Mah'di, when he arrived (came) to Madinah, he layed out a prayer mat, so Malik ordered to imprison him, and it is said to him: He is Abdu'll-Rahman bin Mah'di, so he said: "Do you not know, that laying out a prayer mat in the Mosque is an innovation?

 

 

 

It is imperative to read and reflect before you react.  The laying out of prayer mat being an innovation is for using a rug exclusively for prayers in the mosque.  

 

"If a man seeks to pray on the rug because he thinks that it is essential to have a rug just for prayer and that he has to pray on something whether he is at home or in the mosque. Many people only ever pray on the rug even if the house is carpeted.  
 
Shaykh al-Islam (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: 
 
Praying on rugs, in the sense that the worshipper insists on that – this was not the way of the salaf, the Muhaajireen and Ansaar and those who followed them in truth at the time of the Messenger of Allaah. Rather they used to pray on the ground in his mosque, and none of them had a rug that was used just for prayer. It was narrated that when ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn Mahdi came to Madeenah he spread out a rug, and Maalik ordered that it be taken away. It was said to him, 'He is ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn Mahdi.'  Maalik said, 'Do you not know that spreading a rug in our mosque is bid’ah (an innovation)?' "
 
Edited by muslim720

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Prostration has seven points.  How many of yours touch mud for it to revive the Sunnah?  Furthermore, where in Iraq do you find perfectly round biscuits (turbah) popping up from the earth except through processing and human intervention?  Cotton goes through processing and human intervention for it to become a prayer rug.  So, your point is?

 

 

It is imperative to read and reflect before you react.  The laying out of prayer mat being an innovation is for using a rug exclusively for prayers in the mosque.  

 

"If a man seeks to pray on the rug because he thinks that it is essential to have a rug just for prayer and that he has to pray on something whether he is at home or in the mosque. Many people only ever pray on the rug even if the house is carpeted.  
 
Shaykh al-Islam (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: 
 
Praying on rugs, in the sense that the worshipper insists on that – this was not the way of the salaf, the Muhaajireen and Ansaar and those who followed them in truth at the time of the Messenger of Allaah. Rather they used to pray on the ground in his mosque, and none of them had a rug that was used just for prayer. It was narrated that when ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn Mahdi came to Madeenah he spread out a rug, and Maalik ordered that it be taken away. It was said to him, 'He is ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn Mahdi.'  Maalik said, 'Do you not know that spreading a rug in our mosque is bid’ah (an innovation)?' "
 

 

 

 

(bismillah)

 

 

I am aware of what was stated, however the issue is not whether one prays or does not pray on carpet, in a Mosaq or at home, but the established fact that non of the Ans'ar or the Muhajreen, nor the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.a.s) prayed on a piece of napkin or carpet, rather on what originates from earth as mentioned by Ibn Qaiyim, and this is a reply to those who condemn the Shi'a of Ahlulbayt (a.s) for praying on dust or a piece of the earth. And so, we are revving the Sunnah of the Prophet (s.a.w.a.s).

 

______________________

(wasalam)

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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(bismillah)

 

 

I am aware of what was stated, however the issue is not whether one prays or does not pray on carpet, in a Mosaq or at home, but the established fact that non of the Ans'ar or the Muhajreen, nor the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.a.s) prayed on a piece of napkin or carpet, rather on what originates from earth as mentioned by Ibn Qaiyim, and this is a reply to those who condemn the Shi'a of Ahlulbayt (a.s) for praying on dust or a piece of the earth. And so, we are revving the Sunnah of the Prophet (s.a.w.a.s).

 

______________________

(wasalam)

 

 

Slow down a bit!  I remember reading up on this - and yes, it was another discussion I had here on ShiaChat - and someone had summarized the entire position of Ibn Taymiyyah [rah].  Essentially, what he wished to impart upon us was to not hold one sacred over another, meaning, one should not seek to pray on a rug when the area is clean from najasat.  

 

Therefore, if you apply that methodology, without cutting and pasting from the holistic view of Ibn Taymiyyah [rah], then it creates more problem for you because you choose to take turbah - made out of soil from Karbala - as sacred over the place you live in.  If you truly wish to do good to your word and align yourself with the stance adopted by Ibn Taymiyyah [rah], then prostrate on clay or mud from anywhere, starting with home (wherever you live).

 

Your problem is three-fold: one, you prostrate on turbah made exclusively from the soil of Karbala thus holding it as more sacred than the soil of the country you live in (and therefore lying to us that you are actually on the same page as Ibn Taymiyyah [rah] in this matter or by implying that somehow your actions are condoned by Ibn Taymiyyah [rah]).  Two, your turbah is just as natural, and just as processed, as is a prayer rug (with varying degrees of human intervention, of course).  And three, your prostration on turbah is incomplete, by your own standards, because there are seven points of prostration, not just the face.

Edited by muslim720

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Slow down a bit!  I remember reading up on this - and yes, it was another discussion I had here on ShiaChat - and someone had summarized the entire position of Ibn Taymiyyah [rah].  Essentially, what he wished to impart upon us was to not hold one sacred over another, meaning, one should not seek to pray on a rug when the area is clean from najasat.  

 

Therefore, if you apply that methodology, without cutting and pasting from the holistic view of Ibn Taymiyyah [rah], then it creates more problem for you because you choose to take turbah - made out of soil from Karbala - as sacred over the place you live in.  If you truly wish to do good to your word and align yourself with the stance adopted by Ibn Taymiyyah [rah], then prostrate on clay or mud from anywhere, starting with home (wherever you live).

 

 

(bismillah)

 

 

 

You are clear arguing out of the main topic. First of all, the mentioned above two quotes state, that the Prophet (s.a.w.a.s), has never prayed on a piece or a form of carpet cloth/napkin. This is what we are aiming to mention, and not aiming at whether we can or cannot pray on carpet. The issue holds that those Muhaj'reen and the Ans'ar and the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.a.s) have never prayed, only that which originates from from the earth and Ibn Qay'im confirmed this clearly. Thus, I am not quoting from the first above scholar to state his views to apply it in a methodology, clearly I am stating on whether the Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) has ever prayed on other than that which originates from earth.

 

Second of all, I wish not to adopt any idea from Ibn-Taymiyah, I have simply quoted a statement that is based on an historical biography of a person whom has never prayed or prostrated on anything other than that which originates from earth. and So, you should understand that for us, it is "Not" obligatory, for one to pray on a Turb'ah from Karbala, nor is is a ruling or a law. If you assume so than surely you have not read enough. We are to pray on any of what the Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) has prayed on, however for us to bring a dust from Karbala, that is no problem, nor does it affect any of ones status in ones worship or nor is not impermissible to do so, I can pray On any clear dust where ever I want, and if I "Prefer" a dust/stone from a particular place that has absolutely no problem, and nor is there any narration or historical account to forbid me to do so.   

    

 

 

 

Your problem is three-fold: one, you prostrate on turbah made exclusively from the soil of Karbala thus holding it as more sacred than the soil of the country you live in (and therefore lying to us that you are actually on the same page as Ibn Taymiyyah [rah] in this matter or by implying that somehow your actions are condoned by Ibn Taymiyyah [rah]).

 

 

How quickly do you misunderstand and rush into an argument, I have not stated that I am with Ibn-Tamiyah, nor did I state I was on the same page as he. The issue I stated was that fro hos words and the his student, that the Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) in all his life time has never prostrated (Sujj'ud) on anything but the soil and that which originates on earth, and I am not applying that I agree on his matters, do please do not attribute fallacies. Third of all, for one to make a soil scared more than the soil of his land, what is the problem? The Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) has cried over the soil of which where Imam Al-Hussain (a.s) has died in. This does not affect ones Taw'heed, on what he prefers, simply an absolute pathetic excuse. The Shi'a venerate the earth of Karbala in order to receive blessings since the Prophet (saw) and the Imams (a.s) gave it great importance. It has also been encouraged for the Shi'a to perform prostration on with the understanding that it is not compulsory as it can be anything natural, but with a view to achieving greater recompense. We for a long time have kept this earth with them. Then, fearing that it might be desecrated, they kneaded it into small tablets or pieces, which are now called mohr or Turbah. During prayers we prostrate on it not as a compulsory act but in view of its special nature. Otherwise, when we have no pure soil with us, we prostrate on clean earth, or something that originates from it.

 

 

 

 

And three, your prostration on turbah is incomplete, by your own standards, because there are seven points of prostration, not just the face.

 

What is that pity excuse? Seven points of protestation to not equal your forehead, if you stating that all these points must be on one platform, then basically one must have all the seven points naked in contact with the platform, meaning you must wear proper clothing to show these seven points, meaning to reveal you knees, and this is not absolute and has nothing in affect to ones prostrations. Please provide me at least One "Fatw'a" from one of your four school's of thought (Directly from the scholar, E.g Hanbal, or Malik.  to at least show that you referencing, let alone you are making nonsense from air.

 

 

Again We state Authentic narrations to clearly show the sacred Dust of Kar'bala where Imam Hussain (a.s) was killed. 

 

 

 

We read in "Musna'ad Ahmad bin Hanbal ( مسند الإمام أحمد بن حنبل), By: Ahmad bin Ha'nbal Al-Shaybani (أبو عبد الله أحمد بن محمد بن حنبل بن هلال بن أسد الشيباني), Investigated by Ahmad Muhammad Shakir (أحمد محمد شاكر), association: Da'r Al-Hadith (دار الحديث), First print: 1416. Volume 1, page 446, Narration #648:

 

 

 حدثنا محمد بن عبيد حدثنا شَرحْبِيل بن مدْرِك عن عبد الله بن نجي عن أبيه: أنه سار مع علي، وكان صاحب مطهَرَته، فلما حاذى نينوى وهو منطلق إلى صفِّين فنادى علي: اصبر أبا عبدَ الله، اصبر أبا عبد الله بشطِّ الفرات، قلت: ومَاذا؟ قال: دخلت على النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم - ذات يوم وعيناه تَفيضان، قلت: يا نبي الله أغضبك أحد، ما شأن عينيك تفيضان؟ قال: "بل قام من عندي جبريل قبلُ، فحدثني أن الحسين يقتل بشط الفرات"، قال: فقال: هل لك إلى أن أُشِمَّك من تربته؟ قال: قلت: نعم، فمد يده فقبض قبضة من تراب فأعطانيها، فلم أملك عيني أن فاضتا.

 

Muhammad ibn Ubaid narrated from Shorah'bil ibn Muddrik narrated from Abdullah ibn Neji through his father who said, "He went with Alee, and he was the carrier for his ablution vessel, and when he reached Naynaway on his way to Siffin (Note: present day Mosul, Iraq near Karbala). Alee called out, 'Wait Aboo Abdullah, wait Aboo Abdullah by river Euphrates.' I said: 'What happened?' He replied: I once entered to the Prophet (saw) and his eyes were overflowing with tears, I asked the Prophet (saw), 'Did anybody anger you? Why are you crying so profoundly?' He said: Angel Jibreel came to me once and informed me that Hussain will be killed by river Euphrates, and said 'Do you want to smell this earth?' He (saw) said 'Yes!' He reached out and took a handful from the earth (of Karbala) and gave it to me, and I could not stop my eyes overflowing.'
 
 
 
 إسناده صحيح. وهو في مجمع الزوائد 187:9 وقال: "رواه أحمد وأبو يعلى والبزار والطبرانى، ورجاله ثقات، ولم ينفرد نجي بهذا".
 
Footnote: Narration is Saheeh (Authentic), Haythami has said: "This is narrated by Ahmad and Aboo Ya'la and Al-Bazzar and Al-Tabarani and its narrators are Thiqat (trustworthy), and Neji is not the only person who has narrated it."
 
 
 
post-83202-0-00616000-1410871029_thumb.jpost-83202-0-36611400-1410871036_thumb.j
 
 
 
 
We read in "Mustadr'ak Al-Hakim Al'a Al-Sah'eehain (المستدرك على الصحيحين)"  By: Al-Hakim Al-Nisaburi (أبو عبد الله الحاكم محمد بن عبد الله بن محمد بن حمدويه بن نُعيم بن الحكم الضبي الطهماني النيسابوري المعروف بابن البيع)", Investigated By: Mustaf'a Ab'd-Al-Qader-Att'ah (مصطفى عبد القادر عطا), Association: Dar-Al-Kutub-Al'imlyah (دار الكتب العلمية), First print (1411): Volume 4, page #444:

 

 
 
أَخْبَرْنَاهُ أَبُو الْحُسَيْنِ عَلِيُّ بْنُ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ الشَّيْبَانِيُّ بِالْكُوفَةِ، ثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ حَازِمٍ الْغِفَارِيُّ، ثَنَا خَالِدُ بْنُ مَخْلَدٍ الْقَطَوَانِيُّ، قَالَ: حَدَّثَنِي مُوسَى بْنُ يَعْقُوبَ الزَّمْعِيُّ، أَخْبَرَنِي هَاشِمُ بْنُ هَاشِمِ بْنِ عُتْبَةَ بْنِ أَبِي وَقَّاصٍ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ وَهْبِ بْنِ زَمْعَةَ، قَالَ: أَخْبَرَتْنِي أُمُّ سَلَمَةَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهَا، أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ اضْطَجَعَ ذَاتَ لَيْلَةٍ لِلنَّوْمِ فَاسْتَيْقَظَ وَهُوَ حَائِرٌ، ثُمَّ اضْطَجَعَ فَرَقَدَ، ثُمَّ اسْتَيْقَظَ وَهُوَ حَائِرٌ، دُونَ مَا رَأَيْتُ بِهِ الْمَرَّةَ الْأُولَى، ثُمَّ اضْطَجَعَ فَاسْتَيْقَظَ وَفِي يَدِهِ تُرْبَةٌ حَمْرَاءُ يُقَبِّلُهَا، فَقُلْتُ: مَا هَذِهِ التُّرْبَةُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ؟ قَالَ: " أَخْبَرَنِي جِبْرِيلُ عَلَيْهِ الصَّلَاةُ وَالسَّلَامُ أَنَّ هَذَا يُقْتَلُ بِأَرْضِ الْعِرَاقِ - لِلْحُسَيْنِ - فَقُلْتُ لِجِبْرِيلَ: أَرِنِي تُرْبَةَ الْأَرْضِ الَّتِي يُقْتَلُ بِهَا فَهَذِهِ تُرْبَتُهَا

 

 
 
Narrated Aboo Al-Hussain Alee ibn Abdul Rahman Al-Shaybani in Kufa from Ahmad Ibn Hazim Al-Ghafari from Khalid Ibn Mukhlid Al-Qatwani from Abdullah ibn Wahab ibn Zam'a from Umm Al-Salama who said: 'One night the Messenger of Allah (saw) woke up suddenly from his sleep with fear and anxiety and after a while he slept again, then he woke up with less fear than the first time, then slept and woke up again after a while and in his hand there was red soil which he was smelling and kissing. Then I asked: "What is this soil O Messenger of Apostle of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì? He said: "Jibreel (a.s) informed me that Hussain (a.s) will be killed in the soil of Iraq, then I said to Jibreel (a.s) show me the soil of the ground that Hussain (a.s) will be killed in it.' Then he gave me this soil.
 
 
«هَذَا حَدِيثٌ صَحِيحٌ عَلَى شَرْطِ الشَّيْخَيْنِ، وَلَمْ يُخْرِجَاهُ»  التعليق - من تلخيص الذهبي مر هذا على شرط البخاري ومسلم
 
 
Al-Hakim: This narration is Saheeh (Authentic) by the criteria of Shaykhayn (i.e Bukhari and Muslim) but they have not narrated it. Al-Dhahabi: It is Saheeh by the criteria of Al-Bukhari and Muslim.
 
 
 
 
post-83202-0-38788300-1410871060_thumb.jpost-83202-0-41289700-1410871215_thumb.j
 
 
________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

 
 
 
 
Also let us look at the opinion Of Imam Malik: 
 
 

We read in "Minh'aj-Al-Sunnah Al-Nabawiyah (منهاج السنة النبوية)," By Ibn-Tamiyah ( ابن تيمية الحراني الحنبلي الدمشقي)" Investigated By: Muhamamd Rashid Salam (محمد رشاد سالم), The first print (1406): volume 4, page #151:

 

 
وَكَذَلِكَ قَالَ مَالِكٌ: إِنَّ السُّجُودَ يُكْرَهُ عَلَى غَيْرِ جِنْسِ الْأَرْضِ، وَالرَّافِضَةُ يَمْنَعُونَ مِنَ (7) السُّجُودِ عَلَى غَيْرِ الْأَرْضِ
 
 
 
And also said Malik: "Prostration is "Makr'ooh, other than that originates from earth, and Al-Rafith'a do not allow protestation other than the earth (Soil, Has'eer, etc).

 

 

 

 

 

post-83202-0-37300100-1410871231_thumb.jpost-83202-0-21233800-1410871334_thumb.j

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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I dont think the brother is thinking properly. He thinks processed and natural are the same thing. He doesnt realize a turbah is in its nature state, just shaped earth. When earth becomes a turbah, it is not elementally changed or added. Where as, one, carpets were never made during the prophets A.S time, and two, carpets are artificial (man made), they are NOT earthly pure material. Thus, when anyone prostrates upon a carpet/rug, they are prostrating on man made (in essence) material. Just because people shape mud in tablet form, doesnt mean people made the mud, you are confusing two very simple concepts. Oh and this "7-point" argument is just senseless, and how you are trying to make taymiyaa l.a argument incumbent upon us makes no sense either. Your argument is not even the topic at hand. If you follow taymiyya l.a then do as he says, or at least do as he believes what Muhammad's A.S sunnah is, and pray on mud, and do not condemn shias for it.

 

The Shia position:

 

Question: Why do Shias use Turbah (Sajdagah) when doing Sajda?

Answer: Sajdah should be performed on earth, and on those things which are not edible nor worn, and on things which grow from earth (e.g. wood and leaves of trees).It is not permissible to perform Sajdah on things which are used as food or dress (e.g. wheat, barley and cotton etc.), or on things which are not considered to be parts of the earth (e.g. gold, silver, etc.). And in the situation of helplessness, asphalt and tar will have preference over other non-allowable things. Sajdah should not be performed on the vine leaves, when they are delicate and hence edible. Otherwise, there is no objection. It is in order to perform Sajdah on things which grow from the earth, and serve as fodder for animals (e.g. grass, hay etc.). It is in order to perform Sajdah on flowers which are not edible, and also on medicinal herbs which grow from the earth. Performing Sajdah on a grass which is eaten in some parts of the world, but not in the rest, but it is classified as edible.

 

1091. It is in order to perform Sajdah on paper, if it is manufactured from allowed sources like wood or grass, and also if it is made from cotton or flax. But if it is made from silk etc., Sajdah on it will not be permissible.

http://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2224/

 

(wasalam)

Edited by PureEthics

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(bismillah)

 

 

 

1.  You are clear arguing out of the main topic. First of all, the mentioned above two quotes state, that the Prophet (s.a.w.a.s), has never prayed on a piece or a form of carpet cloth/napkin.

 

2.  Second of all, I wish not to adopt any idea from Ibn-Taymiyah, I have simply quoted a statement that is based on an historical biography of a person whom has never prayed or prostrated on anything other than that which originates from earth.

 

3.  and So, you should understand that for us, it is "Not" obligatory, for one to pray on a Turb'ah from Karbala, nor is is a ruling or a law. 

    

 

4.  What is that pity excuse? Seven points of protestation to not equal your forehead, if you stating that all these points must be on one platform, then basically one must have all the seven points naked in contact with the platform, meaning you must wear proper clothing to show these seven points, meaning to reveal you knees, and this is not absolute and has nothing in affect to ones prostrations.

 

 

5.  Again We state Authentic narrations to clearly show the sacred Dust of Kar'bala where Imam Hussain (a.s) was killed. 

 

 

6.  We read in "Minh'aj-Al-Sunnah Al-Nabawiyah (منهاج السنة النبوية)," By Ibn-Tamiyah ( ابن تيمية الحراني الحنبلي الدمشقي)" Investigated By: Muhamamd Rashid Salam (محمد رشاد سالم), The first print (1406): volume 4, page #151:

 

 

 

1.  That the prophet (pbuh) used to pray, while Aisha is between him and the Qibla, upon the bedding that they slept on.  (Sahih Bukhari)

 

Sahih Bukhari : Volume 8, Book 73, Number 222:
Narrated Anas: The Prophet was the best of all the people in character.  I had a brother called Abu ‘Umar, who, I think, had been newly weaned.  Whenever he (that child) was brought to the Prophet the Prophet used to say, “O Abu ‘Umar! What did Al-Nughair (nightingale) (do)?”  It was a nightingale with which he used to play.  Sometimes the time of the Prayer became due while he (the Prophet) was in our house.  He would order that the carpet underneath him be swept and sprayed with water, and then he would stand up (for the prayer) and we would line up behind him, and he would lead us in prayer.
 
2.  Now that you are caught, maybe you can correct yourself instead of lying more to work your way out of the first lie.  Ibn Taymiyyah's [rah] position is clear, that is, if you had read his position holistically.
 
3.  Obligatory or not, we yet have to find a turbah made from the soil of Mecca or Madina.
 
4.  Exactly my point!  Glad you can see how ridiculous that requirement would be.  If you are to make sajdah on earth, then you must expose your knees.  By the way, it applies to you.
 
“And sajdah is not allowed except upon the earth or what grows (from) the earth, except what (can be) eaten or worn, and sajdah is not allowed upon the grave”
Source: Al-Toosi, Al-Nihaayah fee Mujarrid Al-Fiqh wa Al-Fataawa, pg. 101
 
Start making holes in your pants to expose your knees  :lol: 
 
5.  Again, you bring material from collections that are not free from containing weak and erroneous reports.  But even if we were to take those narrations as authentic - isnad, matn, etc - did the Prophet [saw] make a turbah out of the soil of Karbala and made sajdah on it?  
 
6.  Minhaj as-Sunnah was authored by Ibn Taymiyyah [rah] to refute Shias.  Often times, he quoted a Shia position only to follow it up with his own rebuttal.  I suggest you read the matter in its entirety.

I dont think the brother is thinking properly. He thinks processed and natural are the same thing. He doesnt realize a turbah is in its nature state, just shaped earth. When earth becomes a turbah, it is not elementally changed or added. Where as, one, carpets were never made during the prophets A.S time, and two, carpets are artificial (man made), they are NOT earthly pure material. 

 

 

A perfectly shaped biscuit of clay, with "Ya Fatima al-Zahra" inscribed on it, is in its natural state?

 

Carpets were never made during the time of the Prophet [saw]?  Paper, as we have it today, was not made during the time of the Prophet [saw] yet you can substitute it for turbah and prostrate on it, can you not?  

 

By the way, what paper looks like the tree it comes from?  Is paper the natural state of trees or vice-versa?

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(bismillah)

 

 

Sahih Bukhari : Volume 8, Book 73, Number 222:

Narrated Anas: The Prophet was the best of all the people in character.  I had a brother called Abu ‘Umar, who, I think, had been newly weaned.  Whenever he (that child) was brought to the Prophet the Prophet used to say, “O Abu ‘Umar! What did Al-Nughair (nightingale) (do)?”  It was a nightingale with which he used to play.  Sometimes the time of the Prayer became due while he (the Prophet) was in our house.  He would order that the carpet underneath him be swept and sprayed with water, and then he would stand up (for the prayer) and we would line up behind him, and he would lead us in prayer.

 

 

Before I mention the contradictory narrations. Let us take a look at the narration you placed above. assuming that this is the correct translation of course. First of all, in this narration, the "Carpet" (Bis'aa't)"  and according to Ibn-Hij'r Askalani, in this particular narration, and others that are similar, it is the evidence which allows the prayer on "Ha'seer" (straw) and not carpet of cloth, the carpet laid was a simply mat made of "Has'eer" (straw), and he sprayed water to assure its "Tah'ara" (Purification). 

 

 

We read in In "Fat'h' Al-bari Fe Shar'h Sahih Al-Bukhari  (فتح الباري شرح صحيح البخاري), By Ibn Hijir Al-Askalani (أحمد بن علي بن حجر العسقلاني), volume 4, Narration #5580, Page# 599-600, in the explanation of the narration:

 

 

وفيه استحباب صلاة الزائر في بيت المزور ولا سيما إن كان الزائر ممن يتبرك به ، وجواز الصلاة على الحصير ، وترك التقزز لأنه علم أن في البيت صغيرا وصلى مع ذلك في البيت وجلس فيه . وفيه أن الأشياء على يقين الطهارة لأن نضحهم البساط إنما كان للتنظيف

 

 

 

And in it (narration), is Admiration of prayer of the visitor in the house of the invited and even especially if the visitor was whom sees (acts) a good omen in, with it. And Allowing prayer on Straw (Has'eer), and leaving the disgust, because he knew that in the house was a small child, and with it he prayed in that house and sat in it. And in it that the things are by with no doubt are purified, for he sprinkled the mat (Straw), for cleaning.  

 

 

(Link to reference)

 

 

 

 

 

The Prophet (s.a.w.as) has Never prayed on carpet, the statement by Ibn-Al-Qay'im is very clear: and We quoted previously: 

 

 

We read in Ibn' Qa'y'ims (العلامة ابن القيم), Book: I'gha'ath'at Al-Lah'faan Fe Mas'ayid Al-Shaytan ( إغاثة اللهفان في مصايد الشيطان), Investigated it Muhammad Az'eez Al-Shams (محمد عزير شمس) and Mustafa Bin Sa'ad It'eem (مصطفى بن سعيد إيتيم), Association: Al-Fiq'h Al-Islami ( مجمع الفقه الإسلامي), volume 1, page 218:
 



 وكذلك ترى أحدهم لا يصلي إلا على سجاده ولم يصل عليه السلام على سجادة قط ولا كانت السجادة تفرش بين يديه بل كان يصلي على الأرض وربما سجد في الطين وكان يصلي على الحصير فيصلي على ما اتفق بسطه فإن لم يكن ثمة شيء صلى على الأرض 

 

 

And also, you see now one of them, does not pray only on a prayer mat, and He the Prophet (peace be upon him) absolutely did not pray on a prayer mat, and the prayer mat never was laid out between his hands (In front of him), but he use to pray on the ground, conceivably prostrated on the mud, and he use to pray on a Al-Hass'eer (Straw), and prays on what agrees with his simplicity, an if there was nothing, he prayed on the ground (Earth).

 

 

 

 

We turn to page 268:
 

 

 

وقد صلى النبي على حصير قد اسود من طول ما لبس فنضح له بالماء وصلى عليه ولم يفرش له فوقه سجادة ولا منديل وكان يسجد على التراب تارة وعلى الحصى تارة وفي الطين تارة حتى يرى أثره على جبهته وأنفه

 

 

And the Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) has prayed on "Al-Hass'eer (Straw)" that has become black from how long its worn, so it was moistened with water, and never a prayer mat was laid out over him, and not (even) a napkin, and use to sometimes prostrate on dust, and sometimes on gravel/stone, and sometimes mud, until its remains can be seen on his forehead and nose.

 

 

 

Did he make a mistake in his Ijt'ih'aad?

 

__________________________________________________________________________________________________


So here you have to answer a couple of things, and that why at the most heat, where the Muslims where complaining to the Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) about the earth being to hot due to heat, he at times did not make any exemption, we Read.

 

 

 

1- We read in In "Fat'h' Al-bari Fe Shar'h Sahih Al-Bukhari  (فتح الباري شرح صحيح البخاري), By Ibn Hijir Al-Askalani (أحمد بن علي بن حجر العسقلاني), Narration #510, Page# 21: (Or Volume 2, page #13):
 

 

 

والحامل لهم على ذلك حديث خباب شكونا إلى رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - حر الرمضاء في جباهنا وأكفنا فلم يشكنا أي فلم يزل شكوانا ، وهو حديث صحيح رواه مسلم 

 

And Al-Ham'al has that on the narration of Al-Khab'ab: "We complained to the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.a.s), the serve heat on our foreheads and palms, and did not reply to our complaint, and we stilled complained. And this narration is Authentic and narrated it Muslim. 

 

 

 

 

2- We read in "Sun'an Al-Kub'ra (السنن الكبرى), By Ahmad bin Al-Hussain Al-Bah'eeqi Abu bakr (أحمد بن الحسين بن علي بن موسى البيهقي أبو بكر), volume #2, page #104

 

 

 

خبرنا : أبوعبد الله الحافظ ، ثنا : أبو العباس محمد بن يعقوب ، ثنا : يحيى بن محمد بن يحيى ، ثنا : أحمد بن يونس ، ثنا : زهير ح  ، وأخبرنا : أبوعبد الله الحافظ ، ثنا : أبو بكر بن إسحاق ، إنا محمد بن شاذان الجوهري ، ثنا : معلي بن منصور ، ثنا : أبو خيثمة ، ثنا : أبو إسحاق ، عن سعيد بن وهب ، عن خباب قال : شكونا إلى رسول الله (ص) حر الرمضاء فلم يشكنا قلت لأبي إسحاق : في الظهر ؟ قال : نعم ، قلت : أفي تعجيلها ؟ قال : نعم ، رواه مسلم في الصحيح ، عن أحمد بن يونس.
 
 
Told us, Al-Khab'ab: "We complained to the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.a.s) in the severe heat, and did not reply to our complain.". I said To Abi-Ish'aaq: In Al-Zuhr?, Said: "yes,". I said: "In rushing it?" said: "yes". Narrated it in Sahih Muslim, from Ahmad bin Yunus. 
 
 
 
 
3- We read in Sahih-Al-Bukhari: 
 
 
حَدَّثَنَا مُسَدَّدٌ، حَدَّثَنَا بِشْرٌ، حَدَّثَنَا غَالِبٌ، عَنْ بَكْرِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ قَالَ كُنَّا نُصَلِّي مَعَ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فِي شِدَّةِ الْحَرِّ، فَإِذَا لَمْ يَسْتَطِعْ أَحَدُنَا أَنْ يُمَكِّنَ وَجْهَهُ مِنَ الأَرْضِ بَسَطَ ثَوْبَهُ فَسَجَدَ عَلَيْهِ‏.‏

 
 
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
 
We used to pray with the Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) in scorching heat, and if someone of us could not put his face on the earth (because of the heat) then he would spread his clothes and prostrate over them.

 

 

 

According to the hadeeth above, it is only in exceptional circumstances that the companions would prostrate on cloth. And in this you find that the prophet (s.a.w.a.s) even at extreme cases did not pray on any form of cloth. Rather on either soil or straw.

 

 

 

_______________________________________________________________________________________________




 

 

 Exactly my point!  Glad you can see how ridiculous that requirement would be.  If you are to make sajdah on earth, then you must expose your knees.  By the way, it applies to you.

 
“And sajdah is not allowed except upon the earth or what grows (from) the earth, except what (can be) eaten or worn, and sajdah is not allowed upon the grave”
Source: Al-Toosi, Al-Nihaayah fee Mujarrid Al-Fiqh wa Al-Fataawa, pg. 101
 
Start making holes in your pants to expose your knees   

 

 

 

First of all, your first argument was that the "Sajd'ah" takes place while the human is at prostration, seven places. However by "Sajd'ah" there is no narrations from you or either us that states that the seven positions must be in contact on what foundation its on. The Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) used to wear clothes of course and prostrate on soils and on any forms of that which originates from earth. And as you seen Ibn what Ibn-Tamiyah said:

 

" but they use to pray in the Mosque on the ground, and not one any of them taking a prayer mat specializing it for praying on it."...... 

.......and his mosque was roofed with Palm leaf stalk, from the rain. For hos mosque was from the the origin (nature) of the earth"

 

 

 

So, now please state an Authentic narration, where they use to rip their clothes in the places of contact with earth. Please read. 

Second of All, when you are reading a narration where it says: "Sajd'ah" that does not mean that All the positions of Sajd'ah, In the Arabic language it is the prostration of the forehead on the ground, and if you were to apply your meaning you would need to to have a sentence: "Saj'da't Al- Saba'a" or "Sajdah Fe Sabaha Mawath'ih", and we have no narrations that state this. We look at the meaning of Sajd'ah according to your literature:



-We read in "Lis'aan Al-Arab (لسان العرب), Ibn Manthor, Jamal Al-deen (أبو الفضل جمال الدين محمد بن مكرم ( ابن منظور)), Letter: "S'een" (حرف السين), the word: "Sajed (سجد): Page #126:

 

 


ابن سيده : سجد يسجد سجودا وضع جبهته بالأرض

 

Ibn S'eedah (Imam of Language according to Imam Al-Dahabi): Sajad: Prostration: Putting ones Forehead on the ground.

 

 

 

has nothing got to do with the different positions of Prostrations, unless there is a sentence that says so, narrated from the Prophet (s.a.w.a.s).

 

 

_________________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Again, you bring material from collections that are not free from containing weak and erroneous reports.  But even if we were to take those narrations as authentic - isnad, matn, etc - did the Prophet [saw] make a turbah out of the soil of Karbala and made sajdah on it?

 

 

I stated the narrations first of all to show, that importance of the soil and its status in terms of it being from Karbala, and therefore there is no reason for you to make any statement or objection to as why we prostrate on the soil. Second of all, its ignorance for you to state that the chain is not free of weak reports, because the narrations that I have mentioned are only two of 8 to 9 narrations that are Authentic, therefore it is at high frequency, and such your scholars (E.g the ones I stated), I have corrected it as: "Sahih". No need to come with weak complaints, unless you can reject the chain of the two narrations above, and the rest that are mentioned in other valued literature.

 

 

 

 

 

Minhaj as-Sunnah was authored by Ibn Taymiyyah [rah] to refute Shias.  Often times, he quoted a Shia position only to follow it up with his own rebuttal.  I suggest you read the matter in its entirety.

 

 

I suggest you start reading. I am aware of the that Minh'aj Al-Sunnah is in reply to the Shia (of course, has many refutations), I stated it, because I read the issues his stating, and his reply was to us "Not Allowing" Sujda, on anything but the earth, and he quoted that Malik said its Makroo, while we say its impressible:


And also said Malik: "Prostration is "Makr'ooh (disliked), other than that originates from earth, and Al-Rafith'a do not allow protestation other than the earth (Soil, Has'eer, etc).

 

 

_________________________________________________________________________

(wasalam)

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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A perfectly shaped biscuit of clay, with "Ya Fatima al-Zahra" inscribed on it, is in its natural state?

 

Inscribing on something, doesnt change its natural state (Earth). o_O  First of all, usually, there is a quranic verse on it, or a picture of a holy place like the kaabah or shrine. Besides, for us shias, it is highly discourage to pray on the side with the design/writing, just to be precautious. Also, your sentence is like saying, why are sunnis praying on prayer mats that have buildings on them? Or when you pray, your clothes have writings or drawings on them, if anything, it has a tag of where it was made and such.

 

Carpets were never made during the time of the Prophet [saw]?  Paper, as we have it today, was not made during the time of the Prophet [saw] yet you can substitute it for turbah and prostrate on it, can you not?  

 

 

Although this is from wiki, it gives a clear indication as to when carpets/rugs came about (which is not during the prophets time): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_art#Rugs_and_carpets The reason I state this is because, many of your people in your school of thought bring this foolish argument that its bidah because the companions or prophet never did it or never had it in their time. Of course that is a very foolish argument from the Shia perspective, because there is more to it then just the prophet doing it, or it being found during his time.

 

You see (most) paper, is made from pure earth, wood. Which is allowed to be used to pray on, since its earthly, in its natural state. I beg to differ, paper was present during the prophets time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper#History to clear some of your doubts on (most) paper being natural:

 

http://www.paperonline.org/environment/renewable-resource

http://www.idahoforests.org/paprmake.htm

 

 

 Is paper the natural state of trees or vice-versa?

 

** HUGE "FACE-PALM" ** To make it easier for ya, once and for all,  prayer carpets or rugs, are NOT made from EARTH. They are made (and contain) from MAN-MADE (artificial) material. Its natural state is not earthly material. When I say natural state, I mean not solid to liquid for example, but its essence that its made of. When water changes to ice, it is still water. I forgot to add, also, what you pray on is used in clothing, which is haram in the Shia school of thought. As I posted above, anything worn or eaten cannot be used to prostrate on because, its significance is made for our benefits alone, thus potentially removing Allah from the equation. Where as Earthly made, is one sunnah/command from Allah, and two, it is a very humbling source. Dust, that which were made from, and to which we return. It signifies obedience to Allah, purely.

 

(wasalam)

Edited by PureEthics

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(bismillah)

 

 

 

Before I mention the contradictory narrations. Let us take a look at the narration you placed above. assuming that this is the correct translation of course. First of all, in this narration, the "Carpet" (Bis'aa't)"  and according to Ibn-Hij'r Askalani, in this particular narration, and others that are similar, it is the evidence which allows the prayer on "Ha'seer" (straw) and not carpet of cloth, the carpet laid was a simply mat made of "Has'eer" (straw), and he sprayed water to assure its "Tah'ara" (Purification). 

 

 

 

 

 

All this rubbish and portraying yourself as some scholar.  Why?  You claimed that the Prophet [saw] never prayed on any piece of cloth or carpet but the narration states that he prayed on bedding.  You turn around, flaunting your cut-paste, "on page 28, we read"......get a grip on yourself!  You messed up.

 

 

 

 

 

First of all, your first argument was that the "Sajd'ah" takes place while the human is at prostration, seven places. However by "Sajd'ah" there is no narrations from you or either us that states that the seven positions must be in contact on what foundation its on.

 

Second of All, when you are reading a narration where it says: "Sajd'ah" that does not mean that All the positions of Sajd'ah, In the Arabic language it is the prostration of the forehead on the ground

 

 

 

All the positions of sajdah?  How many positions do you assume in sajdah?  Unless you meant "points".  Then again, the excuse you make to absolve yourself from your erroneous position is in vain because the Islamic stance on sajdah is clear.  Of course now that you need an escape route, somehow giving sajdah various meanings seems to be a viable option.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You see (most) paper, is made from pure earth, wood. 

 

 

 

** HUGE "FACE-PALM" ** 

 

 

You see, most of prayer rugs are made from cotton which, like wood, is pure too.  What you cannot see, and will not admit, is that there is just as much human intervention and processing that goes into making paper and turning cotton into prayer rugs.

 

What you will also dodge is that while you are making sajdah (with your face) on the turbah, your palms, knees and toes are making contact with some sort of carpet, most likely a prayer rug.  So you pray just like us, on carpet.  Get over yourself!

 

As for placing your forehead on turbah, the last reason why you do it is because it is the "sunnah".  We all know why you do it and to make yourself appear pious, you put the "sunnah" spin on it.  But the entire world of Islam knows why you choose to put your face on the turbah and kiss it afterwards.  

 

In fact, as I said earlier, one of the main take-home lesson - if you read the entire position of Ibn Taymiyyah [rah] - is that one should not prefer one over another.  When it is time to pray, you should pray, unless you find the place to be najis (at which point you can use a cloth or prayer rug).  When you place a turbah to prostrate on, you take it as superior to the soil found in the place that you live in.  So the last thing you should do is support TheIslamHistory in his blunder of misreading, or misrepresenting, the position of Ibn Taymiyyah [rah].

Edited by muslim720

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All this rubbish and portraying yourself as some scholar.  Why?  You claimed that the Prophet [saw] never prayed on any piece of cloth or carpet but the narration states that he prayed on bedding.  So then you turn around, flaunting your cut-paste, "on page 28, we read"......get a grip on yourself!

 

 

Sorry, according to your scholars, Its the mat made out of Has'eer. as I have quoted.

 

______________________________

 

 

 

  Of course now that you need an escape route, somehow giving sajdah various meanings seems to be a viable option.

 

 

 

Sorry again, we are not escaping, we referred to the terminology used in the narration you provided. and Second,  the objection it self is weak, because you have have to condemn the Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) himself for not poking a holes reveal his knees while praying. There no weak evidence or reason you can provide than this.

 

_______________

(wasalam)

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So how is cotton impermissible? 

 

Also, since you like to copy-paste in a rush, let me make it even more difficult for you.

 

"And the Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) has prayed on "Al-Hass'eer (Straw)" that has become black from how long its worn, so it was moistened with water, and never a prayer mat was laid out over him, and not (even) a napkin, and use to sometimes prostrate on dust, and sometimes on gravel/stone, and sometimes mud, until its remains can be seen on his forehead and nose."

 

Does your nose touch the earth or turbah when you make sajdah on the turbah?  Go on and lie to us and say "yes, it does".  Except, I have been to enough Shia mosques enough times to see otherwise (since most of these turbahs are no bigger than a small cookie).  Either your nose is left in the air or it makes contact with the carpet (since carpet is what you find in Shia mosques as well).  Therefore, even the one point (forehead plus nose) of sajdah that you make on turbah is void.  

 

If your nose remains hanging in the air without making contact (during prostration), then your sajdah is void, per Islam.  And if you push your nose down to prevent it from hanging in the air, then it makes contact with whatever is beneath you, most likely, a carpet or prayer rug and therefore, your sajdah is void per your own madhhab.

 

Give me five minutes....I am popping some pop corn.  Thereafter, I will sit back and enjoy reading your pathetic excuses.

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Does your nose touch the earth or turbah when you make sajdah on the turbah?  Go on and lie to us and say "yes, it does"

 

Actually, if you have been to enough Shi'ah mosques as you claim, you would notice that many of us get two turbahs and place one on the ground for our noses, since it's very mustahab in our literature.

 

It's funny sitting here watching you spew your anger because we follow a sunnah of the Prophet [sawa] and you don't.

 

 

As for placing your forehead on turbah, the last reason why you do it is because it is the "sunnah".  We all know why you do it and to make yourself appear pious, you put the "sunnah" spin on it.  But the entire world of Islam knows why you choose to put your face on the turbah and kiss it afterwards. 

 

Excuse me? Would you not kiss something that was delivered from Allah to the Prophet (that hadith is mutawatir in your books)? And no, it's not the last reason. Read the scholarly opinions on the matter and what's wajib is that you prostrate on earth.

Edited by Ali al-Hadi

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"And the Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) has prayed on "Al-Hass'eer (Straw)" that has become black from how long its worn, so it was moistened with water, and never a prayer mat was laid out over him, and not (even) a napkin, and use to sometimes prostrate on dust, and sometimes on gravel/stone, and sometimes mud, until its remains can be seen on his forehead and nose."

 

Does your nose touch the earth or turbah when you make sajdah on the turbah?  Go on and lie to us and say "yes, it does".  Except, I have been to enough Shia mosques enough times to see otherwise (since most of these turbahs are no bigger than a small cookie).  Either your nose is left in the air or it makes contact with the carpet (since carpet is what you find in Shia mosques as well).  Therefore, even the one point (forehead plus nose) of sajdah that you make on turbah is void.  

 

If your nose remains hanging in the air without making contact (during prostration), then your sajdah is void, per Islam.  And if you push your nose down to prevent it from hanging in the air, then it makes contact with whatever is beneath you, most likely, a carpet or prayer rug and therefore, your sajdah is void per your own madhhab.

 

 

(1), Your argument is invalid, for the reasons we have already stated. First, the Prophet's (s.a.w.a.s) nose (Place of Prostration) is not an obligatory palace to be on the ground, it simply a place like the other six places of prostration. The Obligatorily place is the "Jab'haa (forehead), that is the "Sajjdah" that is to on the ground on what originates from the earth. So now I ask you, does that mean Our hands during prostration also have to be on the ground (earth)? No of course not, this is the same argument you provided for the "knees". by "Sajd'ah" there is no narrations from you or either us that states that the seven positions must be in contact on what foundation its on. The Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) used to wear clothes of course and prostrate on soils and on any forms of that which originates from earth.

 

(2) It is highly Musta'hab, if you visit Shi'a Mosques, they place two Turbas aligned, so that the nose is also on what originates from earth, However again this is not obligatory as we have already argued.

 

__________________________

(wasalam)

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Question to 12-vers. What prevent you from following this, and praying on earth? 

 

 

(bismillah)

 

 

We pray on "Turbah" which is from the earth. And we are only to pray on everything that originates from this earth. What prevents you from praying on earth?

______________________________________

(wasalam) 

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(bismillah)

 

 

We pray on "Turbah" which is from the earth. And we are only to pray on everything that originates from this earth. What prevents you from praying on earth?

______________________________________

(wasalam)

 

You are not praying on earth. You pray on carpets, mats or whatever. And just your forehead you put on earth. Big difference.

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You are not praying on earth. You pray on carpets, mats or whatever. And just your forehead you put on earth. Big difference.

 

 

You are arguing from Ignorance. We Do Prostration on that which Originates from earth. I have made the point clear about this On post 13#. In concern of Sujjdah. In reply to the brother before you.

 

______________________________ 

 

(wasalam)

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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1.  Actually, if you have been to enough Shi'ah mosques as you claim, you would notice that many of us get two turbahs and place one on the ground for our noses, since it's very mustahab in our literature.

 

2.  It's funny sitting here watching you spew your anger because we follow a sunnah of the Prophet [sawa] and you don't.

 

3.  Excuse me? Would you not kiss something that was delivered from Allah to the Prophet (that hadith is mutawatir in your books)? And no, it's not the last reason. Read the scholarly opinions on the matter and what's wajib is that you prostrate on earth.

 

 

1.  Never ever have I seen anyone using two turbahs, one aligned for the nose.  By the way, the "sunnah" you follow is already very troublesome, especially when lines (during prayers) shift, with every brother re-aligning his turbah.  Imagine doing that with two, hahaha!  Here is a suggestion....build a mosque like in the time of the Prophet [saw] if you really wish to cling on to the "sunnah".  Yeah, thought so!

 

2.  Here is the authentic sunnah because the Prophet [saw] said, "the earth has been made for me clean and a place of worship".  In another narration, he [saw] clarifies it and says, "and the whole earth has been made a mosque for us, and its dust has been made a purifier for us in case water is not available".  Since you claim to be following the "sunnah" by praying on earth (turbah), do you also use your turbah for Tayammum?  Do you also perform Istinja with your turbah as well?  Waiting for your response!

 

3.  Sure, it is very mutawatir!

 

 

 

 

 

(1), Your argument is invalid, for the reasons we have already stated. First, the Prophet's (s.a.w.a.s) nose (Place of Prostration) is not an obligatory palace to be on the ground, it simply a place like the other six places of prostration. The Obligatorily place is the "Jab'haa (forehead), that is the "Sajjdah" that is to on the ground on what originates from the earth. So now I ask you, does that mean Our hands during prostration also have to be on the ground (earth)? No of course not, this is the same argument you provided for the "knees". by "Sajd'ah" there is no narrations from you or either us that states that the seven positions must be in contact on what foundation its on.

 

(2) The Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) used to wear clothes of course and prostrate on soils and on any forms of that which originates from earth.

 

(3) It is highly Musta'hab, if you visit Shi'a Mosques, they place two Turbas aligned, so that the nose is also on what originates from earth, However again this is not obligatory as we have already argued.

 

 

1.  In Sahihain, it is narrated by Ibn Abbas [ra] that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “I have been commanded to prostrate on seven bones: the forehead – and he pointed to his nose – the hands, the feet and the ends of the feet (i.e., toes).”

 

Al-Nawawi (may Allah have mercy on him) said, "If he (as in any Muslim) omits one of these parts then his prayer is not valid".
 
2.  Exactly!  If the Prophet [saw] had clothes covering his knees - therefore, preventing his knees from coming in direct contact with the earth - it becomes clear that you have misunderstood the entire concept of praying on "earth" because the narrations stress on praying anywhere (when it is time to pray), not on dirt or soil.  Or, you are trying to pull a fast-one on people by pretending to be a scholar and saying things like, "....we turn to page 78 and we read".
 
The Prophet [saw] said, "The earth has been made a place of prostration for me, and a place to perform Tayammum.  Thus, my followers can pray wherever (i.e. in any lawful place) they like, when the time of prayer is due."  
 
Do you also use your turbah for Tayammum?  Do you also perform Istinja with your turbah as well?  
 
3.  It is obligatory for your nose and other parts mentioned to touch during sajdah.  Please learn basic Islam.  Also, check out this picture which I absolutely adore because I have tremendous respect for Shias and Sunnis that pray together.  How many turbahs do they each have?  Wouldn't their noses remain in the air or touch the carpet?  Either ways, you have no point, lol!
 
576184_502089443161032_353110074_n.jpg
Edited by muslim720

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(bismillah)

 

 

 

 

1.  In Sahihain, it is narrated by Ibn Abbas [ra] that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “I have been commanded to prostrate on seven bones: the forehead – and he pointed to his nose – the hands, the feet and the ends of the feet (i.e., toes).”

 

Al-Nawawi (may Allah have mercy on him) said, "If he (as in any Muslim) omits one of these parts then his prayer is not valid".

 

 

This is in the concern of the Positioning, and not "What to be Prostrated on".

 

 

 

 

 Exactly!  If the Prophet [saw] had clothes covering his knees - therefore, preventing his knees from coming in direct contact with the earth - it becomes clear that you have misunderstood the entire concept of praying on "earth" because the narrations stress on praying anywhere (when it is time to pray), not on dirt or soil

 

 

(1) We have stated narrations: Where even at the server heat, they did not pray on any form of fabric.

 

(2) The Prophet (s.a.w.as) even at the serve heat did not pray on any form of fabric, while the narration stated when it was great, only then they laid out a cloth, while the Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) did not. 

 

(3) The Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) only prayed on what originated from earth.

 

(4) Your scholars made clear this misconception of what you stated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

he Prophet [saw] said, "The earth has been made a place of prostration for me, and a place to perform Tayammum.  Thus, my followers can pray wherever (i.e. in any lawful place) they like, when the time of prayer is due."  

 

 

(1) Again you have stated a narration without the Explanation. Please post the Arabic of the narration with Sha'rh Al-Nawawi.

 

(2) If you take this narration, then this mean, excluding the (in any lawful place), then I can simply pray in anything, even if such is Unclean or Not Lawful. If we take what you inserted: (in any lawful place), Then you would need to first give me evidence from our literature where the prophet (s.a.w.a.s) has allowed the prostration on fabric/cloth. Or where he had done this. for example I have stated an narration where they did in this, to the serve heat, Now state a narration where they did this, even without such serve circumstances.

 

 

 

 

 

Do you also use your turbah for Tayammum?  Do you also perform Istinja with your turbah as well?

 

 

Tayammum is preformed with dust. you cannot use Turbah since it is a solid (in terms of use). Sorry you are not making any sense. Because you are unable to reject any of your narrations.

 

 

It is obligatory for your nose and other parts mentioned to touch during sajdah.

 

 

I have explained this already, we are taking about the primary point of prostration, and as for your "Seven Places of Prostration" this is a fallacy in the agruments which we have elaborated on and rejected. You still have not provided any evidence.

 

 

 

 

 

Please learn basic Islam. 

 

 

I Hope My Arabic increases Insha'Allah. But I am afraid for yours. Since you stated a narration (in english) where you referred to "Bis'aat" as a Carpet fabric, where your scholars stated it was Has'eer. Perhaps you need to read the Arabic narrations before posting their translation.

 

 

 

 

Wouldn't their noses remain in the air or touch the carpet?  Either ways, you have no point, lol!

 

 

Touch the Carpet. Again, You have failed to prove anything.

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1.  This is in the concern of the Positioning, and not "What to be Prostrated on".

 

2.  We have stated narrations: Where even at the server heat, they did not pray on any form of fabric.

 

3.  The Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) only prayed on what originated from earth.

 

4.  Again you have stated a narration without the Explanation. Please post the Arabic of the narration with Sha'rh Al-Nawawi.

 

5.  If you take this narration, then this mean, excluding the (in any lawful place), then I can simply pray in anything, even if such is Unclean or Not Lawful. If we take what you inserted: (in any lawful place)

 

6.  Tayammum is preformed with dust. you cannot use Turbah since it is a solid (in terms of use). Sorry you are not making any sense. Because you are unable to reject any of your narrations.

 

7.  I have explained this already, we are taking about the primary point of prostration, and as for your "Seven Places of Prostration" this is a fallacy in the agruments which we have elaborated on and rejected. You still have not provided any evidence.

 

8.  I Hope My Arabic increases Insha'Allah. But I am afraid for yours. Since you stated a narration (in english) where you referred to "Bis'aat" as a Carpet fabric, where your scholars stated it was Has'eer. Perhaps you need to read the Arabic narrations before posting their translation.

 

9.  Touch the Carpet. Again, You have failed to prove anything.

 

 

As always - and I have maintained this position at all times - outside copy-pasting, you fail at reasoning.  Let me show you why.
 
1.  It was you who said that it is not obligatory for our noses to make contact with the ground (or earth) during sajdah.  I proved to you that the nose must touch the ground (or earth).  Learn basic Islam.
 
2.  Severe heat?  I do not know which server was invented in 7th century Arabia.
 
3.  Does cotton fall out of the sky?  This is your level of hypocrisy.  You deem paper to be acceptable and a substitute for turbah but not something made out of cotton, which grows on trees that grow out of the earth.
 
4.  The ruling is clear.  There are seven points that must touch the ground or earth during sajdah.  If you choose to use a turbah for your forehead, then the remaining points touch the carpet, therefore, you pray just like us (on carpet).  Even if you use a turbah for your entire face (forehead and nose), you are still praying on the carpet since your remaining six points are not touching the turbah.
 
5.  It is common sense that one must not pray in any unlawful place, like bathrooms.  Other than that, you can pray anywhere you want.  Now the onus is on you.  If you want to equate praying on earth with praying on turbah, then you should also perform Tayammum (and Istinja) with your turbah.
 
6.  If turbah is the "earth" which the narration talks about, then you should be able to perform Tayammum (and Istinja) with it.  If you cannot, and you will never do such a thing, then you should admit that you have misunderstood the use of the word "earth" when the Prophet [saw] declared the earth as a place for prostration and Tayammum.
 
7.  Not provided any evidence?  Keep rejecting basic Islam when it is clear that there are seven points that must touch the ground during prostration.  I can care less about your erroneous assumptions and shameless ways to get away from embarrassing situations.  Just don't try to be a pretentious scholar.
 
8.  Insha'Allah, your English will increase too.  Where did I say "carpet fabric"?  I only exposed your lie that the Prophet [saw] never prayed on anything except "earth".  I showed you that he [saw] prayed on bedding and carpet.  I never wished to insinuate that the carpet was like the rugs we have today but you responded by saying that the carpet was made of haseer.  Well, prayer rugs are made of cotton.  Where does cotton come from?  Why is a carpet made of haseer natural but a prayer rug made of cotton unnatural (in your view)?
 
9.  lol, Alhamdulilah.  So if your nose touches the carpet, your sajdah is not on earth since only your forehead is touching the turbah, not your nose (also your palms, knees and toes are also touching the carpet).  Therefore, six out of seven points are touching the carpet and the seventh point - which is your face - only your forehead touches the turbah, not your nose, hence, your prostration - as per your own madhhab - is flawed since your nose is touching the carpet when it should be touching the turbah.
 
Mathematically speaking, only a half of one of the seven points is making contact with the turbah, therefore, 0.5/7 x 100 = 7.14%.....92.86% of the seven points make contact with the carpet.  See, you pray just like us.......on carpet.  Yaye for unity!

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(bismillah)

 

 

 

 

It was you who said that it is not obligatory for our noses to make contact with the ground (or earth) during sajdah.  I proved to you that the nose must touch the ground (or earth).  Learn basic Islam.

Does cotton fall out of the sky?  This is your level of hypocrisy.  You deem paper to be acceptable and a substitute for turbah but not something made out of cotton, which grows on trees that grow out of the earth


The ruling is clear.  There are seven points that must touch the ground or earth during sajdah.  If you choose to use a turbah for your forehead, then the remaining points touch the carpet, therefore, you pray just like us (on carpet).  Even if you use a turbah for your entire face (forehead and nose), you are still praying on the carpet since your remaining six points are not touching the turbah.

 

 

Brother, 

First and foremost, you argument in out of the the issue itself. The reason being we are not talking about were to "Stand" for prayer, where not talking about "Where" to pray, we are not talking about: "The platform" we are praying on, we are talking about specifically Prostration (Sajjdah). What is a Sajjda? As we have already quoted from Lis'aan Al-Arab: "Sajdah: Prostration: Putting ones Forehead on the ground". That is, the Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) has never in his entire life has put his forehead on a piece of Fabric or cloth. That is why we rather instead prostrating on a Mat, we prostrate on a piece of the earth, or anything that originates from the earth such as Leaves, dust, stone, and so on. Your argument basically is that all seven points (hand's, toes, knees, Forehead) all must touch the ground, that is it must be the same type of fabric for all these points. This is an incorrect Idea or claim. Ibn Taymiyah was we have quoted stated that the Mosque of the Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) was made only from that which originates from the earth, such as palm leaf, straws, stone. So when he Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) and those companions we were clothes, when they prostrate on the earth, Only there Toes, hands and forehead are on something that originates from earth, while their knees are on something that is Not of earth. So does that mean according to you, that their prostration is false? Is it wrong? than vise-verse of our issue, because the issue is not about the platform you are praying on, it is "Sajjdah" that we are specifically talking about, that is prostration of the forehead. Of course a person is praying on carpet, but what is he prostrating on? To defend your argument, you need to provide us with the one narration where the prophet (s.a.w.a.s) has prayed on a carpet made of fabric outside the mosque to show that there is no difference between dust of earth, to make it lawful for you to prostrate on. Another example, if I was outside camping, and I went to pray on earth. However I am wearing clothes that cover my knees, and wearing socks that cover my toes, and I prostrate (Forehead) directly on the dust of earth. Does that make my prayer invalid? Of course not, Just like the Prophet (s.a.w.a.s), I am prostrating that is the forehead on that which originates from the earth, just as he (s.a.w.a.s) did. Ibn Qayyim as we quoted him self said, that "There are people will not pray. only on carpet, and the prophet (s.a.w.a.s) has ever prostrated on anything, only that which originates from the earth." Of course if you pray outside your now, you are not bound to been in contact with all places, that is why you need to understand that we are talking specifically on prostration. I have quoted a narration, from Al-Bukhari, where the server heat was scorching to point, where the companions could not prostrate (Forehead) directly on earth's dust, so they complained and even then the prophet (s.a.w.a.s) did not reply to their complain, and the other occasion the same issue took place, but this time, they used a cloth to prostrate on, while the prophet (s.a.w.a.s) did not. So if they used cloth in extreme cases, therefore when was prostrating on cloth was allowed without harsh circumstances? Answer: it was never allowed, and never did any of them prostrate (forehead) on any form of fabric. Second, if the circumstances in the server harsh heat (according to the Narration in Bukhari) the companions used cloth to prorate on, that means their forehead and knees where on fabric cloth, while their hands and toes (assuming they didn't wear socks) where on earth ground (dust) so does that mean their prayer is invalid? of course, because there is no such thing as (or) a narration that states all seven points must be in contact with the sane type of platform, no narration whatsoever. And these were in extreme circumstances, which you must keep in mind. So where they praying on earth dust or cloth? Answer, they were praying on earth, because that is the "Platform" they are praying on, and this is what we are trying to get to, that we are talking about Prostration (Sajjdah) that is the forehead, and we are not talking about the "platform" of where you are to pray in. Its important that you read the statements that was stated in Arabic, you avoid the fallacy of hasty generalization that you committed.  

 

 

 

 

nsha'Allah, your English will increase too.  Where did I say "carpet fabric"?  I only exposed your lie that the Prophet [saw] never prayed on anything except "earth".  I showed you that he [saw] prayed on bedding and carpet. 

 

 

Brother you are repeating what we rejected, in the narration you quoted: "Bis'aat" the word in the context is "Has'eer" (Straw) and not Carpet cloth. We have quoted your narration from the Explanation of Al-Naw'wi. And your scholars have made a clear statement that the prophet (s.a.w.a.s) has prayed on nothing but that which originates from the earth. Did you no read? Was Ibn Qayim Al-Zawzi, and Ibn Tamiyah wrong in their Ijtihad? Please revise our previous post: Again, it was mat of "Straw" and not a Mat of "Carpet of cloth". Please revise.

 

 

 

 

 

If turbah is the "earth" which the narration talks about, then you should be able to perform Tayammum (and Istinja) with it.  If you cannot, and you will never do such a thing, then you should admit that you have misunderstood the use of the word "earth" when the Prophet [saw] declared the earth as a place for prostration and Tayammum.

 

 

First of all, we did not claim that the narrations are talking about "Turbah" we are talking generally about anything that originates from earth, from Straw, stones, leaves, and so on. If I wanted to preform Tayamo'om, because there is no water, I would simply go outside and use the dust of the earth. What your problem? Clearly you are not making any sense.


 

 

  Where does cotton come from?  Why is a carpet made of haseer natural but a prayer rug made of cotton unnatural (in your view)?

 

Dose it originate from the earth? I quote again:
 

 

 

 

 

We read in Ibn' Qa'y'ims (العلامة ابن القيم), Book: I'gha'ath'at Al-Lah'faan Fe Mas'ayid Al-Shaytan ( إغاثة اللهفان في مصايد الشيطان), Investigated it Muhammad Az'eez Al-Shams (محمد عزير شمس) and Mustafa Bin Sa'ad It'eem (مصطفى بن سعيد إيتيم), Association: Al-Fiq'h Al-Islami ( مجمع الفقه الإسلامي), volume 1, page 218:

 



 وكذلك ترى أحدهم لا يصلي إلا على سجاده ولم يصل عليه السلام على سجادة قط ولا كانت السجادة تفرش بين يديه بل كان يصلي على الأرض وربما سجد في الطين وكان يصلي على الحصير فيصلي على ما اتفق بسطه فإن لم يكن ثمة شيء صلى على الأرض 

 

And also, you see now one of them, does not pray only on a prayer mat, and He the Prophet (peace be upon him) absolutely did not pray on a prayer mat, and the prayer mat never was laid out between his hands (In front of him), but he use to pray on the ground, conceivably prostrated on the mud, and he use to pray on a Al-Hass'eer (Straw), and prays on what agrees with his simplicity, an if there was nothing, he prayed on the ground (Earth).

 

 

We turn to page 268:
 

 

 

وقد صلى النبي على حصير قد اسود من طول ما لبس فنضح له بالماء وصلى عليه ولم يفرش له فوقه سجادة ولا منديل وكان يسجد على التراب تارة وعلى الحصى تارة وفي الطين تارة حتى يرى أثره على جبهته وأنفه

 

 

And the Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) has prayed on "Al-Hass'eer (Straw)" that has become black from how long its worn, so it was moistened with water, and never a prayer mat was laid out over him, and not (even) a napkin, and use to sometimes prostrate on dust, and sometimes on gravel/stone, and sometimes mud, until its remains can be seen on his forehead and nose.

 

 

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Instead of going round and round, I will reiterate that sajdah has seven points.  If you insist prostrating on clay, then all seven points must come in contact with clay.  Obviously, only your forehead, which is half of the first point of sajdah (the face), touches the clay and the remaining parts touch the carpet (or whatever you have laid out in your house or mosque).  Therefore, you fail to meet standards set by yourself.

 

Again, you repeat that prostration should be made on anything that comes from the earth.  Where does cotton come from?  Why is it that it is permissible to prostrate on paper - something that is made out of trees - but not on cotton which grows on trees?  Do trees float in air or are they rooted in the ground?  That is hypocrisy of the highest order.  Trees can be processed into paper and prostration is permissible upon paper but prostration on cotton rugs (cotton being something that grows on trees) is somehow discouraged.

 

Furthermore, every issue needs to be understood holistically.  If the Prophet [saw] prayed on that which comes from the earth, then he also said that the earth is a place for prostration (prayer) and Tayammum.  Therefore, you must also use your turbah for Tayammum, including Istinja.  Do you do that?  hahaha, thought so!

 


Dose it originate from the earth? I quote again:

 

Wow, ignorance of the highest order.  Do me a favor and instead of quoting that which has failed to substantiate your error, find out where cotton comes from.

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(bismillah)

 

 

From how unworthy your reply is, I am going to simply ask you questions instead of me explaining what your scholars have stated (Which you have just ignored).  

 

 

 

Instead of going round and round, I will reiterate that sajdah has seven points.  If you insist prostrating on clay, then all seven points must come in contact with clay. 

 

What's your evidence that all Seven points of prostration (Forehead, toes, Knees, hands) must be in contact with the same Martial of the Platform? So I ask you simply: When the Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) prayed, is his prayer not accepted? (Na'ozo'Billah), because his knees were on fabric, while his forehead was on that which originates from the earth. When the companions laid napkins in the serve heat, their hands and toes were on the earth, while their forehead and knees were on fabric, is their prayer not accepted? What is the definition of Prostration? It is the contact of the forehead with the ground, and has nothing to do with the seven points. Answer the above and then we can move on. Insha'Allah. 

 

 

 

If the Prophet [saw] prayed on that which comes from the earth, then he also said that the earth is a place for prostration (prayer) and Tayammum.  Therefore, you must also use your turbah for Tayammum, including Istinja.  Do you do that?  hahaha, thought so!

 

I don't need to use my Turbah (Dust) for Tayam'um, I can simply go outside and use the dust from the earth, I cannot use the Dried dust because it is a solid. Can you do Tayyamumu with your carpet? Since you only prefer to pray on your carpet, then in Tayamum, you must use your carpet. You see how ridiculous the arguments you've presented? No Sense.

 

 

 

 

 

 Why is it that it is permissible to prostrate on paper - something that is made out of trees - but not on cotton which grows on trees?

 

 

First of all, its permissible to prostrate on cotton, because it originates from the earth. No one said it's impermissible, you've simply taken it upon your self without asking. However what you prostrate on must be "Pure" cotton. So yes, its permissible, and that same applies to "paper", it must not be composed of anything of which does no grow/come from the earth, it must be of cotton, wood, leaves..and so on. However carpet is made of wool and other types of fabric, which certainly the prophet (s.a.w.a.s) did not pray on.

 

  
 

 

 

Wow, ignorance of the highest order.  Do me a favor and instead of quoting that which has failed to substantiate your error, find out where cotton comes from.

 

Brother, I know where cotton comes from, I quoted what I posted earlier so that you may understand that your carpet mat is not made of pure cotton, it is usually made of wool and other fabrics, and even if it had cotton, it is "Mixed", which you cannot pray on. Of course unless you buy your self "Pure" cotton which is grown, and not artificial.

 

 

_____________________

(wasalam)

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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1.  What's your evidence that all Seven points of prostration (Forehead, toes, Knees, hands) must be in contact with the same Martial of the Platform?

 

2.  So I ask you simply: When the Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) prayed, is his prayer not accepted? (Na'ozo'Billah), because his knees were on fabric, while his forehead was on that which originates from the earth. 

3.  I don't need to use my Turbah (Dust) for Tayam'um,

 

4.  I can simply go outside and use the dust from the earth

 

5.  First of all, its permissible to prostrate on cotton, because it originates from the earth. No one said it's impermissible, you've simply taken it upon your self without asking.

 

6.  So yes, its permissible, and that same applies to "paper", it must not be composed of anything of which does no grow/come from the earth

 

7.  Brother, I know where cotton comes from

 

 

1.  The narration of Prophet [saw].

 

2.  His prayers were accepted because he [saw] never made it obligatory to only pray on one material, object or thing.  You are taking that fallacious position to justify your use of turbah made from the soil of a place that the Prophet [saw] never even visited (let alone pray there).  To support it, you bring spurious claims and narrations.

 

3.  Exactly, therefore, you must admit that when the Prophet [saw] declared "earth" as the place for prostration (prayer) and Tayammum, he [saw] was not referring to "earth" as in prostrating on dust.  Instead, he [saw] was insinuating that the entire world - with the exception of forbidden places - is a place of worship.

 

4.  This is where your double-standards comes in plain sight.  Why can you go outside to get dirt for Tayammum but not to use for prostration?  That is where you contradict the position of Ibn Taymiyyah [rah] yet you used him, in your original post, to support your belief.  

 

Why can't you go outside, get dirt and make your own turbah?  There is a tutorial video on YouTube to make your own turbah.  

 

5.  Great!  Glad I finally got you to admit that.  And you would not have admitted it had it not been for me bringing up paper and how it is permissible, according to your madhhab, to prostrate on it.

 

6.  Again, your madhhab stresses on prostrating on something that grows on earth, not Islam or the Prophet [saw].

 

7.  Sure, after I exposed you all by bringing up paper.

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(bismillah)

 

 

 

 

The narration of Prophet [saw].

 

 

Which narration?

 

 

 

 

 His prayers were accepted because he [saw] never made it obligatory to only pray on one material, object or thing.

 

 

We did not say that it as obligatory to pray on one martial, but we pray on what the prophet (s.a.w.a.s) prayed on, and anything that the prophet (s.a.w.a.s) did not pray on, we do not pray on either. So Our prayers are fine, and it is it is best to pray on what he (s.a.w.a.s) prayed on, as your scholars have said: "Mud, Stone, leaf, Straw, and so on". 

 

 

 

 

 Exactly, therefore, you must admit that when the Prophet [saw] declared "earth" as the place for prostration (prayer) and Tayammum, he [saw] was not referring to "earth" as in prostrating on dust.  Instead, he [saw] was insinuating that the entire world - with the exception of forbidden places - is a place of worship.

 

 

yes, the earth as in "ground" the earth itself. If the prophet (s.a.w.a.s) allowed us to prostrate on anything, "On" earth, then he would have done so, but from the narrations he only prostrated on what originates from the earth. He did not make a generalization on "everything" on earth. Please bring forth a narration that testifies this.  

 

 

 

 Why can you go outside to get dirt for Tayammum but not to use for prostration?  That is where you contradict the position of Ibn Taymiyyah [rah] yet you used him, in your original post, to support your belief.  

 

 

 

Because it's a solid. Simply. If I pray on the ground where there is a dust I can simply use dust. Ibn Tamiyah simply stated that laying out prayer mat inside a mosque is something that the Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) nor the companions ever did. They prayed on the earth it self.

 

 

 

Why can't you go outside, get dirt and make your own turbah? 

 

What's wrong with Dirt of Karbala? Got a problem?

 

 

 

 Great!  Glad I finally got you to admit that.  And you would not have admitted it had it not been for me bringing up paper and how it is permissible, according to your madhhab, to prostrate on it.

 

 

(1) Admit what? 

(2) Praying on paper is alright, as long its made of what comes from the earth, such a wood, leaf, cotton, so on.

 

 

 

 

Again, your madhhab stresses on prostrating on something that grows on earth, not Islam or the Prophet [saw]

 

Our "Mad'hab" is Islam. The Prophet (s.a.w.a.s) only prostrated on what comes from this very earth. 

 

 

___________________

(wasalam)
 

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