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HamzaTR

Usa Type Of Respect To Women

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[...]

 

One reason why we should avoid the western outlook on the issue of women is that in this outlook, women are a means for satisfying lust. This is undeniable. If someone makes this claim, some people may create uproar. They may say, “No, this is not the case”. However, when one takes a look at their lives, one sees that this is the dominant outlook. In social environments, the more women appear in an immodest way, the more appropriate it will be.

 

They do not have the same opinion about men. In official meetings, men should dress up. They should wear ties and suits. They should dress formally on such occasions. But in these formal meetings, women should appear in a different way. This has no other philosophy and reason except that women should entertain men’s lustful eyes. Today, the western world is like this. It is practically the greatest oppression which the western world shows towards women.

 

I am not after finding newspaper clippings. But it was yesterday or the day before yesterday that I found something in a newspaper. I found it to be a very important writing. I have brought it to this meeting to read it for you. A book written by Jimmy Carter – the former president of America – has been published which is named “A Call to Action: Women, Religion, Violence, And Power”. Jimmy Carter says in this book, “Every year, 100,000 girls are sold as slaves in America where the owner of a brothel can buy girls – who are usually Latin American or African – at only 1000 dollars”.

 

He also refers to the rapes which occur in colleges where only one case out of 25 cases is reported. He goes on to say that only one percent of rapists are put to trial in the army. One cries when one reads such things. We can see many such writings in newspapers. I see such writings as well, but I never base my opinions on them. However, these are realities.

 

Jimmy Carter is a well-known personality after all and this is his book. What kind of situation is this? What kind of respect – towards women – is this?

 

[...]

 


 

The whole speech can be found here:

 


Edited by HamzaTR

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^ Hello,

 

Is the United States a perfect place?  No.  And, I doubt anyone will claim otherwise. 

 

But, in the United States, a woman is not chastised for laughing and smiling in public.

 

All the Best,

David

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I do not feel one should draw conclusions about Western women by what they see on TV or pictures on the mass media. In the general population of women, not so many of us dress immodestly, especially those of us who are mature enough to know better.

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^ Hello,

 

Is the United States a perfect place?  No.  And, I doubt anyone will claim otherwise. 

 

But, in the United States, a woman is not chastised for laughing and smiling in public.

 

All the Best,

David

 

 

 

Regardless of the nonsense you just said, which is completely false wouldn't such an instance be better as opposed to:

women in the US (which is majority) NOT being chastised, for having freedoms to look like the lowest level of humanity possible, being reduced to a piece of meat. And looking like a presentation for others to superficially admire them?

 

Is that not more alarming? Muslim Women are meant to carry themselves with a purpose, and aside from the physical Hijab, there is the social Hijab. So what if, you don't see muslim women laughing out loud obnoxiously with a horse voice? So what, if you don't see muslim women just spitting out words, which have absolutely no depth, just for the sake of talking?

Again, you need to redefine your meaning of "Respect".

 

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^ Hello,

 

"Regardless of the nonsense you just said, which is completely false....."

 

Please read this thread. 

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235025130-my-behavior-is-wrong/

 

How is what I said nonsense and false?  Women in the United States / West are not chastised for laughing and smiling in public.  But, based on the thread linked above, it seems many if not the majority on Shia Chat believe smiling and laughing in public to be improper behavior for a woman.  So, again, how is what I said "nonsense" and "false?"

 

 

Is that not more alarming? Muslim Women are meant to carry themselves with a purpose, and aside from the physical Hijab, there is the social Hijab. So what if, you don't see muslim women laughing out loud obnoxiously with a horse voice? So what, if you don't see muslim women just spitting out words, which have absolutely no depth, just for the sake of talking?

 

 

So, if a woman laughs out loud she is being obnoxious?  And, if a woman talks in public she is just "spitting" out words that have no "depth?"  What an incredible sexist thing to say.

 

And, btw, I have quite a few female friends and associates that are also Muslim.  And, my respect for them is based on their ideas, their values, their behavior and how they treat others.  What they do or do not wear is immaterial as is their religion.  So, I will not be redefining my "meaning" of respect.  I am quite happy with it the way it is.

 

All the Best,

David

Edited by David66

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^ Hello,

 

"Regardless of the nonsense you just said, which is completely false....."

 

Please read this thread. 

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235025130-my-behavior-is-wrong/

 

How is what I said nonsense and false?  Women in the United States / West are not chastised for laughing and smiling in public.  But, based on the thread linked above, it seems many if not the majority on Shia Chat believe smiling and laughing in public to be improper behavior for a woman.  So, again, how is what I said "nonsense" and "false?"

 

 

 

So, if a woman laughs out loud she is being obnoxious?  And, if a woman talks in public she is just "spitting" out words that have no "depth?"  What an incredible sexist thing to say.

 

And, btw, I have quite a few female friends and associates that are also Muslim.  And, my respect for them is based on their ideas, their values, their behavior and how they treat others.  What they do or do not wear is immaterial as is their religion.  So, I will not be redefining my "meaning" of respect.  I am quite happy with it the way it is.

 

All the Best,

David

Don't take what I say and make a completely different statement out of it.

I am trying to present to you a different side of the coin. In many places not just in America, but I am talking about America specifically because, I live here and I have seen first hand situations and also the topic is referring to women in America. Anyway, the points you brought up are a few points shy from the discussion on Feminism.

First of all you DO need to redefine your view on "respect". If you think seeing a woman being able to laugh uncontrollably (like you see in so many public places here in America), and always speaking (even when there is absolutely no need to, and this is not just in regards to women, but men alike) and you see this and come to label this as a "freedom" then your insight is quite distorted. There is a science behind all of this, and you know what it is? It's Islamic behavior. When you continuously find the need to speak (especially in the presence of strange men and women), to speak about everything and anything EVEN if you have absolutely no knowledge on the matter but just for the sake of speaking then there is a problem.

 

It's not "sexist" thing to say, it's a valuable principle that is slowly being uprooted from the character of a woman in society.

I want you to take the time and read this passage from a book entitled: Fatima is Fatima by Dr. Ali Shariati:

 

"In our society, women change rapidly. The tyranny of our times and the influence of institutions take women away from 'what she is'. All her traditional characteristics and values are taken away from her until she is made into a creature 'they want', 'they build'. We see that 'they have built'! This is why the most important and relevant question for the awakened woman at this time is, 'Who am I?' She knows full well that she cannot remain what she is. Actually, she does not want to accept modern masks to replace the traditional ones. She wants to decide for herself. Her contemporaries choose for themselves. They consciously adorn their personalities with awareness and independence. They dress themselves. They manifest an essence. They reflect a sketch. But they do not know how. They do not know the design of the real human aspect of their personality which is neither a reflection of their ethnic heritage nor an artificially imposed imitative mask."

 

 

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 Muslim Women are meant to carry themselves with a purpose

Purpose = Everything that the male-dominated society imposes on them

 

Regardless of what Islam or secularism say about women and focusing on their actions one can see that Muslim women are awfully oppressed and their rights, Islamic rights, violated. But in defence of secular societies it could be said that women have a choice- whether they want to be observing or otherwise.

If you are living in West then compare yourself to a female your own age in places like Punjab, Kandahar, Jeddah or Aleppo. 

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In the west, really how women dress or "choose" to dress, depends on the location and the environment.

 

Where I am, if a woman dressed provocatively to a business meeting, it would look bad for the company. And of course, generally speaking, mothers or older mature women, in a general sense, do dress modestly.

 

There will always be the transgressors, the "cougars", and there will always be nightclubs that will host a number of provocatively dressed women.

 

Just as there are hijabis living in the western world or the US, there are modest non muslim women just the same.  And immodest non muslim women, and I am sure plenty of immodest muslim women as well.

 

In some cases, for example, with respect to something like the porn industry, you may find women who are legitimately taken advantage of and almost dehumanized into a piece of meat for sexual pleasure.  And you can find this find this with men of course as well, though less frequently.

 

And on the flip side, you will find plenty of women who are surprisingly conservative or reserved in how they dress and act, and in such are respected for that as well.

 

Thats pretty much the reality of the US.  You will find just about anything and everything. It all depends on where you look.

 

I will add that...a woman in the US, can choose to wear a hijab or not wear a hijab, or...wear a skirt or not wear a skirt, or wear something tight or exposing, or not.  Maybe they may choose to wear one of those big shoulder suits from the 90s.

 

In the US, generally speaking, for a man or a woman, you can wear what you want to wear (as long as its something). And you can be who you want to be.  You can choose your life and represent your style any way you want.  Ask Lady Gaga.  Is Adele a piece of meat? No of course not.

 

Anyway...this doesnt mean you cant represent yourself in other countries, however it is more than we can say for far end countries like Saudi Arabia, or even, no offense, a country like Iran where its illegal to not wear a veil.

 

Even on this website i dont even know if id be allowed to show a picture of a woman like adele simply because she doesnt wear a veil. But she isnt immodest, nor is she treated as a piece of meat, yet shes on the front line of the media.  As are many woman, and men too. I think eastern societies are more...like socially critical or...less liberal or accepting of alternatives to how they dress (as of in recent times).

 

A country like Saudi Arabia is just so notoriously conservative, that people lack that ability to express themselves. Whereas in the US, in some places, people may attempt to express themselves "too much" to the extent that it just becomes laughable.

 

Ya know, what was Miley Cirus doing on that wrecking ball? Its so absurdly liberal that it just becomes a joke. But rather it be a joke, than something you go to jail for i suppose. And really it just gives everyone a good laugh.

Edited by iCambrian

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First of all you DO need to redefine your view on "respect". If you think seeing a woman being able to laugh uncontrollably (like you see in so many public places here in America), and always speaking (even when there is absolutely no need to, and this is not just in regards to women, but men alike) and you see this and come to label this as a "freedom" then your insight is quite distorted. There is a science behind all of this, and you know what it is? It's Islamic behavior. When you continuously find the need to speak (especially in the presence of strange men and women), to speak about everything and anything EVEN if you have absolutely no knowledge on the matter but just for the sake of speaking then there is a problem.

 

Only on SC, could you find someone demonizing people who talk to each other and laugh about things. Maybe we should all just stay quiet and not enjoy ourselves lol

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Mankind must have the freedom to choose wether to draw closer to God or further away from God. Otherwise, what's the point of creation at all?

I dont really see the provocative or imodest nature of laughing uncontrollably? To me, it's up to the Male to have sufficient amount of self control to let others behave as they want without losing self control.

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Only on SC, could you find someone demonizing people who talk to each other and laugh about things. Maybe we should all just stay quiet and not enjoy ourselves lol

 

 

Maybe you should stay quiet, because apparently you are too dense to understand any of what I was saying.

Purpose = Everything that the male-dominated society imposes on them

 

Regardless of what Islam or secularism say about women and focusing on their actions one can see that Muslim women are awfully oppressed and their rights, Islamic rights, violated. But in defence of secular societies it could be said that women have a choice- whether they want to be observing or otherwise.

If you are living in West then compare yourself to a female your own age in places like Punjab, Kandahar, Jeddah or Aleppo. 

 

 

Oh right, and in secular societies you call the subordination of scantily dressed females a freedom, right? Please don't give me all of that bogus because if anything the west thrives on one principles that their culture promotes, instant gratification!

Please remind me again how that is not oppression?

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Maybe you should stay quiet, because apparently you are too dense to understand any of what I was saying.

 

What do you mean with this?

 

"First of all you DO need to redefine your view on "respect". If you think seeing a woman being able to laugh uncontrollably (like you see in so many public places here in America), and always speaking (even when there is absolutely no need to, and this is not just in regards to women, but men alike) and you see this and come to label this as a "freedom" then your insight is quite distorted. There is a science behind all of this, and you know what it is? It's Islamic behavior. When you continuously find the need to speak (especially in the presence of strange men and women), to speak about everything and anything EVEN if you have absolutely no knowledge on the matter but just for the sake of speaking then there is a problem."

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What do you mean with this?

 

"First of all you DO need to redefine your view on "respect". If you think seeing a woman being able to laugh uncontrollably (like you see in so many public places here in America), and always speaking (even when there is absolutely no need to, and this is not just in regards to women, but men alike) and you see this and come to label this as a "freedom" then your insight is quite distorted. There is a science behind all of this, and you know what it is? It's Islamic behavior. When you continuously find the need to speak (especially in the presence of strange men and women), to speak about everything and anything EVEN if you have absolutely no knowledge on the matter but just for the sake of speaking then there is a problem."

 

Is it that difficult to understand?

Also note how I included men in this, not just females.

Also note how I am not demonizing the nature of laughing nor talking. In fact it's a good thing, provided it's within reason. But why do you people believe there is some sort of freedom in laughing like a horse?

 

:blink:

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Is it that difficult to understand?

Also note how I included men in this, not just females.

Also note how I am not demonizing the nature of laughing nor talking. In fact it's a good thing, provided it's within reason. But why do you people believe there is some sort of freedom in laughing like a horse?

 

:blink:

 

It is difficult to understand what youre saying.

 

Laughing is just laughing.  The freedom comes in the fact that you can do what you want to do, including laugh loudly if you want to.

 

"When you continuously find the need to speak (especially in the presence of strange men and women), to speak about everything and anything EVEN if you have absolutely no knowledge on the matter but just for the sake of speaking then there is a problem."

 

Speaking, just for the sake of speaking, id say helps people if anything.  It allows people to test their ideas with other people. Even speaking with strangers i think often can be beneficial (given that theyre normal every day people).  I speak with strangers all the time, including you.  I do not view it as a problem at all.

 

Thank you for in part, clarifying.

Edited by iCambrian

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Oh right, and in secular societies you call the subordination of scantily dressed females a freedom, right? Please don't give me all of that bogus because if anything the west thrives on one principles that their culture promotes, instant gratification!

Please remind me again how that is not oppression?

Secularism is undeniably synonymous with freedom. Whether good or bad, or goodly and badly applied is a different case.

Just as God put us in this world and gave us the freedom to choose- to do good or bad, the Western governments also give their people this power to choose whether good or bad.

In secular systems there are no moral police walking around forcing people to indulge. But this dark force is very much part and parcel of any Islamic system. In secular world no police car would stop you as an observing Muslim and force you to dress down. But they are very present in Islamic systems telling husbands how their wives, and fathers how their daughters should be dressed.

You, if you are living in the West, are very much part of this secular society- someone who chose to live a certain way. But if you are to go to places where its all Islamic then you wont have the freedom to be the way you are in the West even if its 100% Islamic according to you. You would be forced to adapt to their standard of Islam. That right there is oppression and its absence in secular societies freedom.

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^But the use of this force exists in the secular world too, and is very subjective. In many (if not all) American states if you jog shirtless and you're a female you'll also be stopped by the police, whereas the same phenomenon in France would be tolerated. The question is where do you draw the line?

 

 

In secular systems there are no moral police walking around forcing people to indulge. But this dark force is very much part and parcel of any Islamic system. In secular world no police car would stop you as an observing Muslim and force you to dress down. But they are very present in Islamic systems telling husbands how their wives, and fathers how their daughters should be dressed.

 

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Always talking about the 0.000001%.

Well I do not know too many sane women having the urge to run naked. We are talking about the whole society and it would be very safe to assume that majority in a society are sane.

Anyways to answer your question- let individuals and societies draw the line and not governments as is the case in Afghanistan today. But in Lebanon or Syria or Egypt it might be different as they are different societies just as US and France are.

^But the use of this force exists in the secular world too, and is very subjective. In many (if not all) American states if you jog shirtless and you're a female you'll also be stopped by the police, whereas the same phenomenon in France would be tolerated. The question is where do you draw the line?

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Always talking about the 0.000001%.

Well I do not know too many sane women having the urge to run naked. We are talking about the whole society and it would be very safe to assume that majority in a society are sane.

Anyways to answer your question- let individuals and societies draw the line and not governments as is the case in Afghanistan today. But in Lebanon or Syria or Egypt it might be different as they are different societies just as US and France are.

I didnt say naked, merely being shirtless with your trousers on warrants an arrest you know. Why can men run shirtless but women cant? Why the discrimination? 

 

Whats insanity and whats acceptable? 

 

Its totally subjective. 

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I've lived in the West all my life and I can say that how we educate women here on what their rights supposedly should be or what they are is misguided, not even just by Islamic standards, but by most standards in general. I also think feminism, at least it's current wave, is a very destructive mentality, especially for women.

 

When it comes to dealing with the treatment and perception of women in the West, a couple things people should keep in mind:

 

Images in the media may reflect what some people in the society aspire to be themselves or what values and behavior a certain group of people want to instill in the general population, but they don't necessarily reflect what is actually happening in the society or how the people actually feel or think. In fact, sometimes the reasons you see some of the stuff on TV is precisely because the majority of the audience finds those things repulsive or scandalous and thus it grabs more attention easily. To look at Western television and saying these sexually charged dramas or reality television shows that follow around drunk or promiscuous celebrities reflects Western society is like looking at some of the most popular Japanese anime and thinking that the country is full of scantily clad superwomen when the majority of Japanese are extremely uptight when it comes to their sexuality, making such animations more of a form of escapism than an expression of the reality of Japanese cultural life, a form of escapism which by the way is also criticized by many more prudish Japanese.

 

Often media and entertainment expresses REPRESSED desires more than the actual things happening, either that or the interests and values of private individuals and groups with their own various ideological or economic agendas in telling people what they SHOULD want, which more often than not creates mixed signals in young people who are told one thing by their families or community leaders and another thing by the media as to what kind of person they should aspire to be. And in some cases, it's not even about repressed desires, it's just that people are bored and decadence is entertaining. 

 

Also, modesty is not non-existent in Western society at all.  We still have censorship codes in place for stuff that is seen as too explicit or inappropriate. Most of the stuff on TV and in the movies is working around such censorship laws which, while more relaxed now is still very much in place. There are some Muslim preachers, not going to call out any names, but the impression they sometimes give to their listeners is like the the non-Muslim Westerners are having all sorts of orgies behind closed doors and teaching seven year old girls how to cruise the clubs looking for guys so lock up your teenage boys and that's not what's happening at all, at least not in the mainstream segments of society. Yes, there is sexual promiscuity, there is peer pressure young men and women are experiencing but it's not like every white girl is thinking about breaking her hymen with the first guy who will do it with her. And most women I know in my age group would slap any young man who started talking dirty to them.

 

And most men, both young and old, know that even if a woman is wearing some short shorts, it doesn't mean she's taking it from every guy on the block or that he automatically has any permission to touch her or say anything too forward with her. People who think that way are usually very messed up individuals and chances are, even if all the women were wearing burkas, it wouldn't stop them from sexually assaulting somebody since they're narcissistic, self-entitled or just looking for any excuse to commit that particular wrong.

 

Perhaps we don't have as a firm an understanding of what modesty entails as we should. And maybe there's one too many illegitimate children. But please, I adjure people not to act like the majority of America is living a life of pure Greek decadence, gorging their selves on wine and women every other day of the week,. Many young Americans may lack a little direction or common sense, but most of the women aren't looking to become the biggest skank and most men don't see women as just objects for their pleasure.

 

 

As Muslims, the first any of us should ask when we encounter a different culture or society is not "what is wrong with this country" or "where do they need MY shining influence," but "what good do the people here for me?" then followed by "how can Islam strengthen this good and weaken the bad?" Only in that way can we strike the proper equilibrium that will allow Islam to flourish in the West in such a way that is both authentically Islamic and authentically Western.Complete Westophobia is just as bad as unbridled Westophilia. With the issue of Western views of women, Muslims should first focus on what GOOD the West is doing for women, even if this means admitting where Muslims (not Islam) have failed in fulfilling the duties given by God, then focus on the varying degrees of bad. And we should not exaggerate the bad so it fits a certain political narrative.

 

My basic point here is that while there is definitely a lot of bad  treatment of women in the United States and other places influenced by modern Western ideals (much more than we are often willing to admit, given that we tend to pride ourselves on being exemplary of values such as personal freedom and liberty) , there's still also a lot of good, even by Muslim standards, if Muslims (by this I mean mostly our Shi'ite brethren) are willing to look or are willing to venture outside their comfort zones and explore Western culture beyond television or stereotypes. And yes, Muslims in the West DO have their own stereotypes of American women and American sexuality just as American non-Muslims have them too. I'm not accusing of Sayyid Khamanei of anything here, just that I don't like these attempts to paint life in the West as terrible or extremely immoral in order for Muslims to feel more validated or feel more proud of themselves.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

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I didnt say naked, merely being shirtless with your trousers on warrants an arrest you know. Why can men run shirtless but women cant? Why the discrimination? 

 

Whats insanity and whats acceptable? 

 

Its totally subjective. 

 

Why God gave men beards and not women? Why the discrimination? Arent we all supposed to have been created equal?

 

Who is discriminated against? Women for not having the right to have beards or men spending on shaving kits?

 

You argue something completely irrelevant. 

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Always talking about the 0.000001%.

Well I do not know too many sane women having the urge to run naked. We are talking about the whole society and it would be very safe to assume that majority in a society are sane.

Anyways to answer your question- let individuals and societies draw the line and not governments as is the case in Afghanistan today. But in Lebanon or Syria or Egypt it might be different as they are different societies just as US and France are.

 

Yea true that.

 

The key point in this being that the people decide.

 

You go to a country like Saudi arabia and women are secretely driving or posting videos of defiance on the internet.  Or in Iran, there is the whole "my stealthy freedom" facebook movement going on with the hijabless women.

 

Its a demonstration that, a large number of people arent really the ones choosing this lifestyle, rather it is other people choosing this life style for them.

 

Whens the last time there has been a...massive underground movement for topless women in the US? Actually there are movements, and nude beaches and plenty of places to be nude or at least to be topless and even still, it is legal.

 

I was in the city not too long ago and there was a nude bike riding marathon (a fund raiser).  Really its all in good fun and there werent police officers or haram police chasing the bikers down the street.  Its just more of a live and let live kind of environment. Rather than a...point your finger at someone else and tell them theyre wrong, kind of environment.

Edited by iCambrian

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Purpose = Everything that the male-dominated society imposes on them

 

Regardless of what Islam or secularism say about women and focusing on their actions one can see that Muslim women are awfully oppressed and their rights, Islamic rights, violated. But in defence of secular societies it could be said that women have a choice- whether they want to be observing or otherwise.

If you are living in West then compare yourself to a female your own age in places like Punjab, Kandahar, Jeddah or Aleppo. 

 

Precisely, I am pretty conservative myself and would generally not be pleased about my spouse laughing out loud and behaving immaturely in public, but these are trivialities as compared to the awful subjugation of women in societies where they have far less choice/recourse/freedoms in the first place.  To see people here get so worked up and refer to western societies as pioneers/champions of social ills and everything that is wrong with the world simply demonstrates that they are utterly clueless about the plight of women elsewhere, including the west where a bunch of women in bikinis or teenage hijabis chasing some celebrity crush draw far more criticism/condemnation than say domestic violence.

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Distinction needs to be made: System error vs people error.  I would be more concerned with System error , vs, error by people due to  different cultures.level of education issues. 

 

Stop playing the Gender dominant Card- NATURE in all its wonderful way, some we can't even discuss in forums . Let's get real.

 

Blame Nature/God for allowing Males to produce -two sex-uneducated socities women are blamed for not having a male child.

 

You will never hear me complain about how I am oppressed , because why can’ t i get pregnant like a woman- WHY nature/GOD is so unfair--Why I do not have same level of empathy/nurturing/caring  like a women I want to raise my children - why not equip me with the mother qualities Nature/God so unfair--

Why Nature/God allowed women the right to control who can father her child even in a relationship/marriage- (You know what I mean). So, unfair!!!!

 

(We really need to get real in this world- )

 

------------------------------------

0.0001 or 1% Its all relative.

If this .000! is miley cyrus- torquing on Mass Media and starting a Torquing trend vs. some no body  torquing in house party.  Young girls follow these stars- as their role model. Reflects level of moral/ethical/decency degradation trends as people just laugh it off-as funny episode- totally different values, and mind set-

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

FYI: Considering, the enlightened level, educational level and progressive nature and world champion of Women right- need to get  their house in order. % of population in the most progressive, upper socio-economic level of the society.

 

http://www.thehotline.org/resources/statistics/

 

http://nnedv.org/downloads/Census/DVCounts2013/DVCounts13_NatlSummary.pdf

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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Living in the UK, i know that every friday and saturday there are droves of men and women going out on the town, seeking intoxication and to arouse each others sexuality and that some of those people with engage in promiscuity and others kinds of destructive behaviour. That isnt something that i want to celebrate, but i do find cause for celebration in the fact that a woman can dress immodestly in this country and walk down the street and she is unlikely to be molested. If she is molested, the vast majority of the populace will condemn the molester and not the molested and the law of the land will be on her side. This is something to be commended.

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Why God gave men beards and not women? Why the discrimination? Arent we all supposed to have been created equal?

 

Who is discriminated against? Women for not having the right to have beards or men spending on shaving kits?

 

You argue something completely irrelevant. 

This is an erroneous analogy, we're not talking about physiological differences between the sexes but the freedom to choose what to do. A man can jog shirtless but a woman will be arrested for the same act. Why restrict women the freedom to jog shirtless? It's not like her internal organs will malfunction if she chooses to do so. Its clear other factors are at play here.

 

You cant condemn a country like Iran for similar concerns then, especially seeing as it is a Muslim-majority country. 

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I've lived in the West all my life and I can say that how we educate women here on what their rights supposedly should be or what they are is misguided, not even just by Islamic standards, but by most standards in general. I also think feminism, at least it's current wave, is a very destructive mentality, especially for women.

 

When it comes to dealing with the treatment and perception of women in the West, a couple things people should keep in mind:

 

Images in the media may reflect what some people in the society aspire to be themselves or what values and behavior a certain group of people want to instill in the general population, but they don't necessarily reflect what is actually happening in the society or how the people actually feel or think...

 

I totally agree.

 

 

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Living in the UK, i know that every friday and saturday there are droves of men and women going out on the town, seeking intoxication and to arouse each others sexuality and that some of those people with engage in promiscuity and others kinds of destructive behaviour. That isnt something that i want to celebrate, but i do find cause for celebration in the fact that a woman can dress immodestly in this country and walk down the street and she is unlikely to be molested. If she is molested, the vast majority of the populace will condemn the molester and not the molested and the law of the land will be on her side. This is something to be commended.

Excuse me? Molestation is rife in London. Dont even try imply muslim majority countries encourage molesting scantily clad women. 

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This is an erroneous analogy, we're not talking about physiological differences between the sexes but the freedom to choose what to do. A man can jog shirtless but a woman will be arrested for the same act. Why restrict women the freedom to jog shirtless? It's not like her internal organs will malfunction if she chooses to do so. Its clear other factors are at play here.

 

You cant condemn a country like Iran for similar concerns then, especially seeing as it is a Muslim-majority country. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topfreedom#United_States

 

"In the United States, states have primary jurisdiction in matters of public morality. The topfreedom movement has claimed success in a few instances in persuading some state and federal courts to overturn some state laws on the basis of sex discrimination or equal protection, arguing that a woman should be free to expose her chest in any context in which a man can expose his. Other successful cases have been on the basis of freedom of expression in protest, or simply that exposure of breasts is not indecent (or similar terminology)."

 

Florida

The right of a woman to protest topless has been held to be a freedom of expression and not an equal protection issue.[citation needed] For example, in 2007, a Florida court acquitted a woman of indecent exposure for being topless on Daytona Beach because of the political nature of her stand, under the First Amendment right of free speech.[7]

 

Hawaii

In 1979, the Hawaii Supreme Court ruled that topless sunbathing was not in itself a lewd act under § 712-1217 of the Hawaii Revised Statutes that provides: "A person commits the offense of open lewdness if in a public place he does any lewd act which is likely to be observed by others who would be affronted or alarmed."[8]

 

Read the New Jersey one for a good laugh.

 

New York

 

In February 2013, the New York City Police Department issued a command to all its officers through their daily roll call. It reminded officers that they are not to cite or arrest a woman for public lewdness, indecent exposure or any other section of the penal law for “simply exposing their breasts in public.”[28]

 

North Carolina

When rallies were held in Asheville, North Carolina by GoTopless to mark Women's Equality Day in 2011 and 2012, the municipality requested the State Government to pass legislation to allow them to prohibit further rallies. Legislation to this end was introduced in 2013, to amend the indecent exposure statute, by adding the nipple and areola of the female breast to those parts of the body whose exposure is prohibited. This Bill (HB34) created international attention and local opposition.[29]

 

Other

Other successful cases include the District of Columbia 1986; Columbus, Ohio 1995; Moscow, Idaho 1998, Maine 1998, and Texas.[30][31][32] However, women in Texas appearing topless in public can be charged under public nuisance laws,[33] with the exception of Austin, the state capital, where some women sunbathe topless in Zilker Park, at various festivals, and at Hippie Hollow. Although explicitly illegal in Florida, topless bathing is tolerated on South Beach, along with a number of hotel pools in Miami Beach.[34] In Las Vegas, a number of hotels feature "European" pools that permit female toplessness.[35]

 

 

"Anyways to answer your question- let individuals and societies draw the line and not governments as is the case in Afghanistan today. But in Lebanon or Syria or Egypt it might be different as they are different societies just as US and France are." ~ Wahdat

 

"In the United States, states have primary jurisdiction in matters of public morality."

 

In other words...the law is controlled by the people via state legislation. Rather than some overriding federal government like you may find in Saudi Arabia.

 

So actually, women can walk around shirtless in the US, it depends on the location and the response of people of that location.  Its really not so much different than some other muslim countries though, for example, in Iran, while it may be illegal to not wear a veil, by pushing the edge of the envelope, it is ever so slowly becoming more acceptable for women to partially expose hair, or...most likely with time i would assume the law itself would allow women to walk around without any veil at all. And this route may possibly be taken in the US with toplessness, however toplessness is notoriously, throughout the world, (with the exception of maybe some local african tribes) provocative. And so there may be more resistance there, than something like women not wearing a veil, which is widely accepted in most countries around the world.

Edited by iCambrian

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topfreedom#United_States

 

"In the United States, states have primary jurisdiction in matters of public morality. The topfreedom movement has claimed success in a few instances in persuading some state and federal courts to overturn some state laws on the basis of sex discrimination or equal protection, arguing that a woman should be free to expose her chest in any context in which a man can expose his. Other successful cases have been on the basis of freedom of expression in protest, or simply that exposure of breasts is not indecent (or similar terminology)."

 

Florida

The right of a woman to protest topless has been held to be a freedom of expression and not an equal protection issue.[citation needed] For example, in 2007, a Florida court acquitted a woman of indecent exposure for being topless on Daytona Beach because of the political nature of her stand, under the First Amendment right of free speech.[7]

 

Hawaii

In 1979, the Hawaii Supreme Court ruled that topless sunbathing was not in itself a lewd act under § 712-1217 of the Hawaii Revised Statutes that provides: "A person commits the offense of open lewdness if in a public place he does any lewd act which is likely to be observed by others who would be affronted or alarmed."[8]

 

Read the New Jersey one for a good laugh.

 

New York

 

In February 2013, the New York City Police Department issued a command to all its officers through their daily roll call. It reminded officers that they are not to cite or arrest a woman for public lewdness, indecent exposure or any other section of the penal law for “simply exposing their breasts in public.”[28]

 

North Carolina

When rallies were held in Asheville, North Carolina by GoTopless to mark Women's Equality Day in 2011 and 2012, the municipality requested the State Government to pass legislation to allow them to prohibit further rallies. Legislation to this end was introduced in 2013, to amend the indecent exposure statute, by adding the nipple and areola of the female breast to those parts of the body whose exposure is prohibited. This Bill (HB34) created international attention and local opposition.[29]

 

Other

Other successful cases include the District of Columbia 1986; Columbus, Ohio 1995; Moscow, Idaho 1998, Maine 1998, and Texas.[30][31][32] However, women in Texas appearing topless in public can be charged under public nuisance laws,[33] with the exception of Austin, the state capital, where some women sunbathe topless in Zilker Park, at various festivals, and at Hippie Hollow. Although explicitly illegal in Florida, topless bathing is tolerated on South Beach, along with a number of hotel pools in Miami Beach.[34] In Las Vegas, a number of hotels feature "European" pools that permit female toplessness.[35]

 

 

 

I havent denied there are states that have long abandoned these rules about public morality. 

 

 

 

"Anyways to answer your question- let individuals and societies draw the line and not governments as is the case in Afghanistan today. But in Lebanon or Syria or Egypt it might be different as they are different societies just as US and France are." ~ Wahdat

 

"In the United States, states have primary jurisdiction in matters of public morality."

 

In other words...the law is controlled by the people via state legislation. Rather than some overriding federal government like you may find in Saudi Arabia.

 

 

 

So, you're ok with a muslim majority country like Iran imposing an Islamic dress code? Keep in mind a referendum was held for an Islamic Republic after the '79 revolution in which the majority agreed for an Islamic government. A loud minority of iranian women with an inferiority complex dont count. 

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Excuse me? Molestation is rife in London. Dont even try imply muslim majority countries encourage molesting scantily clad women. 

 

Im not sure what kind of molestation youre referring to, but im referring to a proven public attack. I wasnt referring to some creep brushing up against you on the bus or something where there is doubt so people dont call it out. I mean a woman being physically intimidated and attacked because of the way she dresses. The majority of the time, a woman wouldnt be blamed for that in the UK and prosecutions would take place if an attack was proven. I didnt make any comment about majority Muslim countries, but i know there are plenty where it would be culturally acceptable to put blame on the woman.

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