Usa Type Of Respect To Women

[iCambrian 634]

I havent denied there are states that have long abandoned these rules about public morality. 

 

 

 

 

So, you're ok with a muslim majority country like Iran imposing an Islamic dress code? Keep in mind a referendum was held for an Islamic Republic after the '79 revolution in which the majority agreed for an Islamic government. A loud minority of iranian women with an inferiority complex dont count. 

 

What people vote for is not always whats best for them :P. Only time will really tell us if the way theyre ruling is wise or not. And ya know, the same goes for any country. Personally, i dont think its a good idea to have the feds running peoples personal affairs any more than bare minimum necessities with respect to security, but thus is life and the world.  We learn from our mistakes, and this goes for any country.  But, i was attempting to reason with the pro iranians in the room, by drawing a comparison.  However, the US is a bit different in how it goes about its changes over the decades.  Of course Iran is a bit more conservative and is more on the conservative end of things.

 

And, ya know, this is all turning a blind eye to countries with very rigid aggressive laws with respect to these things.  A woman in the US gets a slap on the wrist (or maybe she will sue the state government and make money if they mess with her), i dont know how they do things in Iran as far as their enforcement goes.  Then there are those other countries, where the people are more lawless and will literally make a woman dissapear off the face of the planet for removing a veil or their shirt in public (could you imagine a woman taking her shirt off in KSA?).  And with that, i think we are all thankful we dont have to live in that kind of environment. Well...at least people in the US typically wouldnt have to worry about that. And with respect to the veil, probably not in Iran either in most cases.

 

Speaking of which, this appears to be another issue with the ISIS.  If I were a woman under their control, id be grabbing the nearest vehicle and id be hauling my butt to najaf haha.

Edited September 14, 2014 by iCambrian

[Jahangiram 932]

What people vote for is not always whats best for them :P. Only time will really tell us if the way theyre ruling is wise or not. And ya know, the same goes for any country. Personally, i dont think its a good idea to have the feds running peoples personal affairs any more than bare minimum necessities with respect to security, but thus is life and the world.  We learn from our mistakes, and this goes for any country.  But, i was attempting to reason with the pro iranians in the room, by drawing a comparison.  However, the US is a bit different in how it goes about its changes over the decades.  Of course Iran is a bit more conservative and is more on the conservative end of things.

 

Well whats best and what isnt is a matter of ideology, and what you just wrote can be the most effective argument against democracy. :D

 

I mean just imagine the BNP winning the vote in 90's Britain and forcibly repatriating all non-whites - the majority would surely be seen as insane then.  

 

Iran these days tries resorting to modern secular thinking when arguing the case for enforcing a dress code; it speaks of the country being 'majority-Muslim' with the 'majority' voting for an Islamic Republic and the 'public outrage' against a scantily clad women in a conservative society like Iran. Which is certainly a reasonable case no doubt. But that's democracy for you. 

 

 

And, ya know, this is all turning a blind eye to countries with very rigid aggressive laws with respect to these things.  A woman in the US gets a slap on the wrist (or maybe she will sue the state government and make money if they mess with her), i dont know how they do things in Iran as far as their enforcement goes.  Then there are those other countries, where the people are more lawless and will literally make a woman dissapear off the face of the planet for removing a veil or their shirt in public.  And with that, i think we are all thankful we dont have to live in that kind of environment. Well...at least people in the US typically wouldnt have to worry about that. And with respect to the veil, probably not in Iran either in most cases.

 

Speaking of which, this appears to be another issue with the ISIS.  If I were a woman under their control, id be grabbing the nearest dirt bike and id be hauling my butt to najaf haha.

 

The lawless societies you are talking about murder their women simply because their reputation was ruined in society. It's a hellish environment definitely, but its more a case of hypocrisy and self-consciousness than a pious move. 

 

Btw, im not actually for or against enforcing the hijab, my opinion is divided on this issue. Playing the devils advocate helps me understand all the different perspectives surrounding this issue.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Jahangiram

[iCambrian 634]

Well whats best and what isnt is a matter of ideology, and what you just wrote can be the most effective argument against democracy. :D

 

I mean just imagine the BNP winning the vote in 90's Britain and forcibly repatriating all non-whites - the majority would surely be seen as insane then.  

 

Iran these days tries resorting to modern secular thinking when arguing the case for enforcing a dress code; it speaks of the country being 'majority-Muslim' with the 'majority' voting for an Islamic Republic and the 'public outrage' against a scantily clad women in a conservative society like Iran. Which is certainly a reasonable case no doubt. But that's democracy for you. 

 

 

 

The lawless societies you are talking about murder their women simply because their reputation was ruined in society. It's a hellish environment definitely, but its more a case of hypocrisy and self-consciousness than a pious move. 

 

Btw, im not actually for or against enforcing the hijab, my opinion is divided on this issue. Playing the devils advocate helps me understand all the different perspectives surrounding this issue.

There is a lot that could be said on either side of the table for the discussion of Iran. I think their country will see some big changes in our lifetime.

 

 And yes I completely agree with the ah...where is it...the hypocrisy and self consciousness statement. 

 

I guess theres not much else to say. I think the OP was stretching things a bit, but this is shia chat, no surprise there.

 

And i play devils advocate all the time too so its ok lol.  The best part of forum discussions, you can take on any personality and act any way you want without any repercussions.

[Saintly_Jinn23 1,215]

Excuse me? Molestation is rife in London. Dont even try imply muslim majority countries encourage molesting scantily clad women. 

 

See, this is part of the problem in these kinds of discussions. We make certain assumptions about either Western society or about Muslim societies based on particular narratives we've been fed. Those of us in the West are often fed this narrative of a "backwards East" where women are slaves to their husbands and have no influence or say and so we often operate under these assumptions, even just unconsciously. Heck, I admit I sometimes fall prey to it and have to step back and remind myself to look objectively at the average life for the average person and how they generally feel before I make any sort of value judgement on their lifestyle. This is mostly perpetrated by feminists and other secular liberal movements who, in reality, represent only a minority, but use large amounts of money and political clout to try to tell the rest of us Americans how we should feel or what we should value. I don't think feminism in this country has made women happier and in fact studies are showing more and more that it's made women more miserable by forcing burdens on them in the name of liberation and gender equality. On that note, I'd like to share this video (WARNING: some explicit language)

 

 

In the East and among sections of socially reserved migrant communities who bring many of their cultural values and assumptions with them, however, there's also a narrative. A narrative of a decadent, hedonistic and Godless culture where women are objectified and only valued as sex objects and the people have tossed all values and notions of sexual purity and moral conduct out the window in the name of freedom.

 

While this may to some extent be true, just as a few of the former assumptions about the East may be true for certain areas, it's blown far out of proportion and honestly I think part of the reason it's blown out of proportion is because Muslims can't always explain why their lifestyle choices are inherently better than Western ones and so there's a need to make it seem as if Western women are somehow under very oppressive conditions with "obvious" negative results and they don't even know it yet all in order to justify their own lifestyle choices.

 

There are a wide range of social and economic factors for example that result in the increase of sexual assault on college campuses beyond "women dressing too provocatively," just as there are a wide range of factors behind many conflicts or negative trends in Muslim countries that aren't just about religious beliefs. And searching for whatever thing we can use to say "AHA! Guess the great west isn't so great now!" and confirm our own preconceived ideas just makes one look petty and ignorant.

 

All the facts need to be examined. You can't just look at a story of a woman wearing tight pants getting molested and say "See, this is why we wear hijab," without examining all the factors that played a role, because there are far more women in this country who don't wear hijab and are never molested in such a manner. And let's not act like hijab is an automatic guard against infidelity. Even Iran has a high pre-marital sex rate. 

 

Before I end this off, I'd also like to say that I'd really like people to stop treating men like they're uncontrollable whirlwinds of sexual frustration. Men aren't these ravenous animals who when they see too much leg are whipped into a frenzy where they must rape or commit adultery. There's a minority of teachers whose speeches and lectures give this impression. Like if I stare too much at the pretty girl at the bus stop, Shaytan will enter my heart and I'll become a beast, I'll have illicit sexual relations and ruin my life. While such an attitude may have good intentions behind it, it can do a lot of psychological damage to men.

 

Whereas before, maybe a young Muslim man when he felt a little too sexually excited just masturbated the edge off (then asked God to help him stop masturbating) or just looked away when he felt his thoughts wandering into territory he didn't like, now you've instilled in him this idea that with every bad look or thought, he's necessarily teetering on the edge of the abyss, which just creates a feeling of anxiety and paranoia that is not only unhealthy but also destructive and likely to lead such a person to give up trying altogether. I grew up in a Protestant environment, I've seen this happen and have experienced it myself.

 

I think this point of view as far as Muslims are concerned is mostly that of very conservative individuals who haven't lived in the West their whole lives or for very long, are mostly here for education or financial reasons and thus are more nostalgic for their homelands where "things appear to make more sense," or again to try to justify certain lifestyle choices by making the specter of Western society seem more evil and depraved than it really is because they're scared of young people being too attracted to it precisely because some elements don't seem "all THAT bad." And they may cite all sorts of traditions out of their context in order to make it seem like the absolute worst thing you can do is live in a society where women don't cover their hair since seeing such a thing for one millisecond too long will apparently cause you to be possessed by sexual demons (which strangely enough feels quite a bit like feminist logic). But honestly, as well intended as these people may be, such an attitude is degrading to men and burdensome to women, making it seem like men are these sexual time bombs who need women to clear the way for them since they have no power to control their own instincts. I thank God that this attitude isn't as prominent among the Shia as it is among our Sunni brothers, but it's still a concern even for us.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Saintly_Jinn23

[Jahangiram 932]

^You've made a whole host of assumptions about my worldview, most of which are incorrect. The primary purpose of hijab is respecting the bodily privacy of a free woman, not preventing rape, so I don't believe there's always a positive correlation between modesty and rape. Second of all I don't have a nostalgic view of my homeland, we have direct family connections in Iraq so there's no illusion to be disillusioned from. Thirdly it's not a matter of 'biased perception' of the West that I state that sexual molestation is rife in London; independent studies in England have clearly stated this without any bearded mullah as a source. I misunderstood Ruq and said what I said because I thought her assumption was that sexual molestation was not an issue in the UK.

 

Now I disagree with your characterization of male-female relationships. Men don't immediately rape a girl on the spot at the sight of an ankle, but its more of a domino effect that is feared. The undeniable social reality is that men are the more upfront and 'forward' gender when it comes to mating.  To paraphrase the black dude in the video, society/religion doesn't assign these roles, we look at these traits and look at what gender these traits are most commonly aligned with. And its another thing feminists should be criticized for - a man is arrested for sexual harassment when persistently flirting or being sexually provocative but its a different story when the genders are reversed.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Jahangiram

[Saintly_Jinn23 1,215]

^You've made a whole host of assumptions about my worldview, most of which are incorrect. 

 

Most of what I said wasn't directed at you personally. I was in fact expanding on what it was you said in response the User: Ruq because I agreed with your statement.

 

 

The primary purpose of hijab is respecting the bodily privacy of a free woman, not preventing rape, so I don't believe there's always a positive correlation between modesty and rape. 

 

There are plenty of Muslims who do though, regardless of your personal beliefs on the matter. And one of the main reasons for promoting hijab is often the belief that it prevents exploitation or molestation. While I do believe this is in fact true to some extent, there are people in our community who over-exaggerate things particularly when it comes to things like the molestation or exploitation of women.

 

 

Second of all I don't have a nostalgic view of my homeland, we have direct family connections in Iraq so there's no illusion to be disillusioned from.

 

Again, that statement was not directed at you at all. I simply used your post as a platform. Most of what I wrote earlier was not an accusation against you or anyone else in particular on this forum.

 

 

 

Men don't immediately rape a girl on the spot at the sight of an ankle, but its more of a domino effect that is feared.

 

And what I was saying is that for some pious Muslims, this understandable concern for the perception and treatment of women has gone from a concern to a kind of paranoia and even a kind of prejudice about the character of Westerners outside the Muslim community in order to feel more confident in one's own Islamic lifestyle. For example, there are some people who in order to feel justified in promoting hijab or wearing hijab feel the need to also make it seem like all the non-Muslim western girls are somehow suffering or sexually promiscuous as a result of not wearing hijab. That sort of thing I think is a bad habit as it leads to a kind of caricature of life for the average Western woman

 

 

 The undeniable social reality is that men are the more upfront and 'forward' gender when it comes to mating.

 

This doesn't mean that men are all wolves waiting for the opportunity to pounce at the first chance to satisfy their libido. I think hijab is a good thing, but the discussion of why it's a good thing shouldn't be perpetuating this idea that men are sexual monsters who need women to sweep every rock off the road for them, lest they trip and break their legs. Again, this is insulting to not only most men in Western society, it's also insulting to most Muslim men as well I think, who do in fact have the self-control probably 80% to 90% of the time to live even in a sexually liberal Western society without losing their core religious values. And most non-Muslim men know that when a woman says no, regardless of what she's wearing, it means no and they don't pursue any further when they get turned down.

 

 

To paraphrase the black dude in the video, society/religion doesn't assign these roles, we look at these traits and look at what gender these traits are most commonly aligned with. And its another thing feminists should be criticized for - a man is arrested for sexual harassment when persistently flirting or being sexually provocative but its a different story when the genders are reversed.

 

Agreed

[Wahdat 1,635]

This is an erroneous analogy, we're not talking about physiological differences between the sexes but the freedom to choose what to do. A man can jog shirtless but a woman will be arrested for the same act. Why restrict women the freedom to jog shirtless? It's not like her internal organs will malfunction if she chooses to do so. Its clear other factors are at play here.

 

You cant condemn a country like Iran for similar concerns then, especially seeing as it is a Muslim-majority country. 

 

Iran enforces hijab. Afghanistan doesnt. Yet you see hijab properly observed in Afghanistan because the enforcer is the society and not the state as is the case in Iran. Its natural.

 

One disease could infect 100 people in the US, and another 100 Million. The genius that you are, you propose quarantining the entire population cuz of the small disease or as means for equality. But the fact remains that women, including the very pious sisters on this forum, enjoy unsurmountable freedom in the West that are and would be denied to them in Islamic societies where Islam = whatever men say it is when it comes to females.

Playing the devils advocate helps me understand all the different perspectives surrounding this issue.

 

another and more effective way of understanding is honest judgement. Assume you have a sister that you love very much and picture where she would have a better life on her own- in West where she could dress piously, educate herself, and.... or in Islamic societies whose first and foremost option would be the societal pressure to marry. I see no freedom in later.

Im not sure what kind of molestation youre referring to, but im referring to a proven public attack. I wasnt referring to some creep brushing up against you on the bus or something where there is doubt so people dont call it out. I mean a woman being physically intimidated and attacked because of the way she dresses. The majority of the time, a woman wouldnt be blamed for that in the UK and prosecutions would take place if an attack was proven. I didnt make any comment about majority Muslim countries, but i know there are plenty where it would be culturally acceptable to put blame on the woman.

 

In most Islamic societies where man bothers woman and police gets involved its always the victim's fault for being a woman even if the guy is a known rapist. There reasoning is that 'good woman' has got nothing to do with authorities because its a great shame.

[Saintly_Jinn23 1,215]

another and more effective way of understanding is honest judgement. Assume you have a sister that you love very much and picture where she would have a better life on her own- in West where she could dress piously, educate herself, and.... or in Islamic societies whose first and foremost option would be the societal pressure to marry. I see no freedom in later.

 

While I do agree with most of what you've said, I think you're being a little too judgmental here. While what you said is true for probably a good portion of the Islamic world, in the case of a country like Iran which is most relevant to us, women actually outnumber men in the universities. 60% of Iran's university student ARE women. And while some critics have voiced that this is a waste of their time, many others have pointed that out stay at home mothers with a higher education in many societies, including Iran, raise more educated and more disciplined children who ultimately perform better in both school and the work force. In fact, a lot of the women going to university in Iran are going not to find a career per se, they're often going in order to find husbands or with the intention of marrying by the end of their school term. When you look at the United States, however, while women are more educated and more involved in the work force, studies show that the overall happiness and satisfaction rates among women in the United States are actually lower now than they were in the 1950's when they were more domesticated. Women in the United States for a long time have had this idea that becoming successful career women is the ultimate path to their happiness only to find that doing so is a lot of stress and pressure, especially when juggled with motherhood. The women's liberation movement operated under this assumption that women were these over burdened house servants and men were drinking champagne and going to night clubs with their CEO dollars only to find that when they got wanted, it wasn't what they expected it to be, at least not for the majority these working women who are now working the same stressful jobs men formerly took all the burden of doing themselves.

[Wahdat 1,635]

Islamic govt in Iran is different than Islamic govt in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Pakistan, Somalia, Egypt, Jordan, Turkey, Mali, Sudan, Boko Haram........Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia.........

 

You could see this from lashing, whipping, beheading, amputating and other such perceived Islamic statistics.

People who cite Iran as an example of Islam in implementing sharia elsewhere are as ignorant as those who cite Norway as an example to spread democracy in Iraq or Pakistan or Afghanistan.

[Saintly_Jinn23 1,215]

My point was that it's not as though our only options here are "keep women stupid and just make them pump out kids" or "educate them and make them free independent career women who don't need no man otherwise we may as well be Boko Haram," and then deciding we must choose the latter because it's best option for women's happiness. For one, not only does this assume we can't educate women and still encourage them to embrace motherhood for the good of society. It also supposes that education and high paying careers are what make women happy and we've realized through experience that isn't really the case.

[thuglife 217]

Don't take what I say and make a completely different statement out of it.

I am trying to present to you a different side of the coin. In many places not just in America, but I am talking about America specifically because, I live here and I have seen first hand situations and also the topic is referring to women in America. Anyway, the points you brought up are a few points shy from the discussion on Feminism.

First of all you DO need to redefine your view on "respect". If you think seeing a woman being able to laugh uncontrollably (like you see in so many public places here in America), and always speaking (even when there is absolutely no need to, and this is not just in regards to women, but men alike) and you see this and come to label this as a "freedom" then your insight is quite distorted. There is a science behind all of this, and you know what it is? It's Islamic behavior. When you continuously find the need to speak (especially in the presence of strange men and women), to speak about everything and anything EVEN if you have absolutely no knowledge on the matter but just for the sake of speaking then there is a problem.

 

It's not "sexist" thing to say, it's a valuable principle that is slowly being uprooted from the character of a woman in society.

I want you to take the time and read this passage from a book entitled: Fatima is Fatima by Dr. Ali Shariati:

 

 

Salam

 

Please, everyone, do not engage David66 in a discussion. You'll be frustrated soon enough.He is the Shiachat resident troll. Look how this user here felt the need to write a LENGTHY essay in response to his/her trolling:

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235024791-lioness-of-iran-simin-behbahani-dies-age-87/#entry2732094

 

All the best,

 

Anti-David

Edited September 15, 2014 by thuglife

[S.M.H.A. 1,787]

As all Humans have the ability to utilize free will, we can do so to chart a course for our lives and our families, understanding the negatives and positives that come with any particular lifestyle when looked at in a comprehensive and all inclusive way. There are consequences to every choice we make and we are the ones who own those consequences as result of our own choice.

 

Islam makes certain probations and allows certain things based on its own value system.

There is an hierarchy in family unit, if violated it results in consequences that are decremental to the family. Womens have many rights and men have many rights based on their function/responsibilities  in the family and in the overall society.

 

Non muslims and some very progressive/social muslims will use certain Politically Correct words or ideas to make the weak minded, with low self esteem, intimidate , not versed in Islam feel a certain way, and they often, strive for acceptance from the non muslims/very progressive/secular/social muslims by abandoning the basics of Islam. This phenomenon is not new, we all see this in our lives, people will do anything to gain acceptance in high school, universities, careers in order to excel in worldly matters, or have a sense of worth. This is also due to lack of leadership qualities and more to do with herd mentality.

 

We need to be aware of this trend and ensure we are not falling victim to it, as our core value system is very different and for different reasons. Our goal is not only secular/worldly gain(Which is allowed in balance) but also spiritual. Certain acts, ideas, may give a perceived benefit of immediate worldly gain/comfort but they are destructive and corrupt the core of human and societies in the short and long term.

 

Role of a Women is so critical in Islam, as a wife and a mother, that all the probations are based on the importance of a Women as they are the ones who nurture, cultivate the next generation. People with individualism as their core philosophy will fight and defend their individual priorities because the overall responsibility is a burden for them.

 

Secular individuals should decide in the beginning what is their goal in life and chart a path accordingly. If a woman doesn't want to have kids she can find like minded men to be her partner, if a woman priority is  a career path only, she should find like minded man, if a woman is secular, should find secular man, this way. No one is compelled to choose a certain  lifestyle. No one is compelled to follow a certain way, in their private life.

 

If the majority of the population in a country agreed on an overall law for the benefit of that particular country, based on their value system. Accept it or leave the country. If Hollywood or Bollywood are spreading what the majority  do not consider appropriate for their family or country, they have a choice to ban it. We don’t ask the secular societies to justify their choice, why are we so concerned with what others will think of us or what will they say- backward people, not marching with current realities(dictated by the majority in those secular countries),  these words or idea have no real meaning as they have not produced an tangible moral/ethical/ or even worldly beneficial consequences. Life of a women, children, man, and society has not improved if not looked at in monetary terms.

 

 

[2:219] They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say: What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder"

 

There are things, ideas, life style choice, some progressive ideas for women, and their role in gender relations, family, society and in them may very well be some good, but overall-the negatives(short term/long term for the benefit of an individual and society) they are not prudent. So, we need to aware of the marketing of benefits (at individual level) and really look at it in a comprehensive way.

 

If you look at from the point of view of the collective good and benefit of the Humans. Teachings of Al-Islam will make sense, and are natural, logical, and rational. If the conversations are compartmentalized, you may not see the overall picture and that is the trick used by some to manipulate Muslims into submission.

 

As a Muslim we could decide to be herded as a sheep or lead as a shepherd.

It all depends on our mindset.

Edited September 15, 2014 by S.M.H.A.

[thuglife 217]

Precisely, I am pretty conservative myself and would generally not be pleased about my spouse laughing out loud and behaving immaturely in public, but these are trivialities as compared to the awful subjugation of women in societies where they have far less choice/recourse/freedoms in the first place.  To see people here get so worked up and refer to western societies as pioneers/champions of social ills and everything that is wrong with the world simply demonstrates that they are utterly clueless about the plight of women elsewhere, including the west where a bunch of women in bikinis or teenage hijabis chasing some celebrity crush draw far more criticism/condemnation than say domestic violence.

Offtopic:Salam, Can I just ask: who is in your profile pic and the guy in the bottom of your post, the various still shots of him laughing? And why do so many people on here have the same?

[Wahdat 1,635]

My point was that it's not as though our only options here are "keep women stupid and just make them pump out kids" or "educate them and make them free independent career women who don't need no man otherwise we may as well be Boko Haram," and then deciding we must choose the latter because it's best option for women's happiness. For one, not only does this assume we can't educate women and still encourage them to embrace motherhood for the good of society. It also supposes that education and high paying careers are what make women happy and we've realized through experience that isn't really the case.

 

First of all- The condition of females in male dominated cartoons of Islamic societies (because they cannot be called Islamic by a long shot) is bad to worse and it should be improved regardless of how Guatemalan or American or Hawaiian women live their lives. They need to be respected as human beings and simply not as mothers of so and so or wife of so and so or daughter of so and so. This is not to say that they are not respected in other areas as wives, sisters, or daughters. We have good things and bad things in this area. Lets make the good better and the bad good.

 

Secondly, and to repeat myself again, the beauty of West lies in the fact that women can choose to be market oriented or housewives. One of my good friend's mother has her PhD and chose to be stay home mother and raised 7 kids. Most of Muslim women living in West embrace motherhood,so do Indians, Chinese, or African women. The difference with Islamic societies lay in the fact that no one in West holds a gun to the head of these women and force them towards markets and jobs. People are left free to choose. And like nature, those who choose good will be rewarded and those who choose bad will be penalized. 

[Jahangiram 932]

Iran enforces hijab. Afghanistan doesnt. Yet you see hijab properly observed in Afghanistan because the enforcer is the society and not the state as is the case in Iran. Its natural. 

 

It's all relative to be fair; in Tehran many of the westernized ladies who have an inferiority complex tend to circumvent the rules as much as possible, whereas the average lady in Yazd or Isfahan can have a very good sense of modesty. 

 

One disease could infect 100 people in the US, and another 100 Million. The genius that you are, you propose quarantining the entire population cuz of the small disease or as means for equality. But the fact remains that women, including the very pious sisters on this forum, enjoy unsurmountable freedom in the West that are and would be denied to them in Islamic societies where Islam = whatever men say it is when it comes to females.

 

First of all dont come debating me in a sarcastic tone in a thread in which you havent been attacked, it's uncalled for and uncouth. You've not been following what ive been saying, Iran is an overall conservative society which voted in an Islamic Republic in a referendum; why dont they have the democratic freedom to impose their desired dress code? Afterall you yourself say its society that draws the line. Im interested in how you'd respond to this. 

 

another and more effective way of understanding is honest judgement. Assume you have a sister that you love very much and picture where she would have a better life on her own- in West where she could dress piously, educate herself, and.... or in Islamic societies whose first and foremost option would be the societal pressure to marry. I see no freedom in later.

 

The pressure exists here as well, but its just that : pressure, and nothing more. I dare say in our iraqi community there's more pressure on the men to marry ASAP lol. 

 

In most Islamic societies where man bothers woman and police gets involved its always the victim's fault for being a woman even if the guy is a known rapist. There reasoning is that 'good woman' has got nothing to do with authorities because its a great shame. 

 

Come on, you know better than to blame this on any islamic authority (whether mullah, shaykh or marja). Its almost always a case of the families not wanting to be shamed in the public arena, thats where all the trouble comes from. The honor-shame paradigm is only prevalant in arab and south asian communities, its slander to involve north and central african muslims (and indonesians and malaysians) in this despicable cultural predicament. Dont blame Islam if these families feel too embarrassed to publicize their daughter being dishonored, what would be the point of an Islamic punishment for rape then? 

Edited September 15, 2014 by Jahangiram